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How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators"

 

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Shredex

Jan 5, 2013, 7:40 PM
Post #26 of 47 (1233 views)
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't this why they invented the "Pro Rating"?


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 6, 2013, 4:52 AM
Post #27 of 47 (1216 views)
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Re: [Shredex] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Isn't this why they invented the "Pro Rating"?

Yes, one of the reasons, but Pro ratings are not required for all exhibition jumps, and having Pro rating does not guarantee good judgement.


david3  (D 21297)

Jan 6, 2013, 2:48 PM
Post #28 of 47 (1178 views)
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Isn't this why they invented the "Pro Rating"?

Yes, one of the reasons, but Pro ratings are not required for all exhibition jumps, and having Pro rating does not guarantee good judgement.

...and you may find you need to stop short to avoid an obstacle on jumps other than demos. Off field landings for instance.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 3:04 PM
Post #29 of 47 (1172 views)
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Re: [david3] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

It might be my mood??? but this thread/post is driving me nuts,...it's like a total waste of time period.

The dude fuc@#$ed up period.

end of story!


david3  (D 21297)

Jan 6, 2013, 3:15 PM
Post #30 of 47 (1167 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

It's your mood. We are not talking about that "dude".


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 4:22 PM
Post #31 of 47 (1156 views)
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Re: [david3] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

I can be serious,...I think...

Stoping short is and has been a vexing problem since the demise of the Paracommander.

My first point is: You can't.

Second point is: Plan ahead!
Perhaps getting into the habit of always having a handfull or so of brakes in your hand so that you can always raise your hands and come in a little short. If need be.

Third: Purchase a ParaFoil /Eiffe/ etc. This as I have been told in the past was the point of the pro-rating in the first place: pre-plan and have the right equipment prior to the demo jump. My point here is that if you point your Katana at a crowd, perhaps you deserve the end result. (No disrespect to any individual, I mearly wish to discuss this point for discussion because it seems that some incidents have been the result of poor planning or what we call "Getting home itis" in the flying community.) In the 90s' I saw a friend hit a fence, in high winds...he could have cut away into the ocean and saved his ass. But I suspect the situation precluded 20/20 hindsight.

Fourth: Start yelling to get out of the way!!!
Remember; You can turn while you are flaring, you only need to turn a little bit...I belive the saying in the sim is "You only need to miss the object by a little bit, in order to not hit it." Might have been one of Dan's or Brian's books though...

Fifth: Landing downwind via a hook is considered an aerobic exersize...makes as much sense as holding your cutaway for that last min. rush. Ever see the "landers" at an airshow? They are expert at grabbing your feet just before you hit that Orange plastic fence at every airshow? After speaking to a NAVY Demo jumper,...his response was "We have orders to not hit anyone." They take their orders seriously...
C

Again no disrespect to anyone, not my thing...


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:27 PM
Post #32 of 47 (1145 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It might be my mood??? but this thread/post is driving me nuts,...it's like a total waste of time period.

I understand how you feel about that. I realized about a day after I started the thread that people might focus on the "comments on demo jumper hits spectators" thinking that we moved that discussion from the Incidents forum.

What I would have liked to see was people discussing the possibility of teaching people how to "stop short".

We got some of that. Anyone want to keep going? (By the way, no one responded to my example. How would you keep from hitting the child?)


(This post was edited by peek on Jan 6, 2013, 5:30 PM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 6:30 PM
Post #33 of 47 (1133 views)
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

O'k I get it now, good point you make, it would be better than great to be able to stop short...The Demo jumper thing...The Demo jumper should know better, etc,.

I have not flared on more than one occasion, no plf, no flare, etc,. It requires a certian amount of practice and such to drive your heels into the ground without tumbling face first, end over end...

I have often thought a series of last min quick turns might do it, but I have'nt found the courage to do it yet! Not the kind of turns I would even attempt to even mention to a student. Turns on the verge of a stall, but still with some speed for a quick pull up at the end,...Sliding in is problamatic in that it takes away time of teaching and practicing a plf. And from personal experience and being present at more than a few hard hits your tailbone is not as strong as many people think it is, never mind the intentional risk you face when you expose your spine to the forces that can do some permanent damage, by advocating sliding in.

Brian G. gives more than a few pointers on this subject in his talks and vids, and books but his perspective is primarily saving your butt and keeping the canopy ovehead! My understanding and the boy's at Flight one/ Brian G advocate a quick pump on the brakes...but in the context of saving a botched high speed hit. You may want to speak with them...I recently spoke with the most excellent instructors at SDU and other than getting large...extend arms, feet, if your a guy...everything to increase drag...Physics rule and your not going to stop short no matter what you do...It was the fine people at SDU that advocate, for the experienced jumper, to carry a little constant brake for the unplanned short stop. The theory being fly fast and end up short. The opposite so to speak of the long spot.

Your question also has framed the situation that you are travelling at a high forward speed,...the antithisis of what every accuracy jumper is trying to do...when they make steep, high brake approaches. So everyone go get a Zero, or a ParaFoil, this might be your answer and all of this is covered in detail with a pro-rating???

Look, I'm trying to not be too sarcastic, and I most wholeheartedly await an answere if one exsists, perhaps there is some yet untried technique that awaits discovery but untill then what your advocating results in someone getting hurt, or at least increasing the risk of injury. The way you have framed the question also implies that somewhere prior to this last second stop...there has been an judgment in error,...we need to spend our time there rather than spending time trying to save a bad situation.
C

I was reading "The Ranch's" web site a few weeks ago and on their site they like to play what if games for discussion. One of the what if's was how to behave in a cloud,...they set up the question to preclude the obvious answer: DON'T JUMP INTO A CLOUD, (we call this "framing" in psychology) you can see how now you must play a what if situation and answere in a certian way. The only way to get any meaning out of this hypothetical situation is to not play the game...

So Yes I would love to be able to find some way to stop short, but on the other hand this discussion takes away from what currently works. I cannot support teaching a sliding stop because it takes away and competes with a plf and proper preparation. Where are this kid's parents anyways???
As you have framed your question, I would simply make a small turn and avoid hitting the kid as there is just enough room to either side of the child. Or I woould simply spread my legs, like Father Geogean and pass over the child and hope that somehow this photo op ends up on Utube. The accuracy guys have been intensly thinking exactly this question since the 60s' and they would, as I, love an answere.
C


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 6, 2013, 7:04 PM
Post #34 of 47 (1126 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the comments and questions!

In reply to:
Sliding in is problematic in that it takes away time of teaching and practicing a plf. And from personal experience and being present at more than a few hard hits your tailbone is not as strong as many people think it is, never mind the intentional risk you face when you expose your spine to the forces that can do some permanent damage, by advocating sliding in.

I was hoping that I had covered that in the original post. One needs to know if it is OK to do a sliding landing with little risk. A PLF is usually better.

In reply to:
Your question also has framed the situation that you are traveling at a high forward speed,...the antithesis of what every accuracy jumper is trying to do...when they make steep, high brake approaches. So everyone go get a Zero, or a ParaFoil, this might be your answer and all of this is covered in detail with a pro-rating???

No, and it is definitely not covered in a Pro rating. I was told a while back by USPA HQ that most Pro ratings are now being earned using small canopies anyway.

The competition called "Sport Accuracy" that was created a while back actually encouraged people to learn accuracy (similar to what you would need to use at an exhibition jump) using your normal canopy. Some of the people in the competition could get really close to the target, and stand up too.

In reply to:
The way you have framed the question also implies that somewhere prior to this last second stop...there has been an judgment in error,...we need to spend our time there rather than spending time trying to save a bad situation.

That would definitely be the preferred thing. I was just suggesting a technique to think about using if things got bad enough.

I was just wanting to talk about a "back pocket" technique. Kind of like, "Now where did I store that fire extinguisher? And I wonder if it is still charged enough to work".


(This post was edited by peek on Jan 6, 2013, 7:08 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #35 of 47 (1061 views)
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

One point every PROFESSIONAL demo jumper needs to cement in is that you must NEVER hit anyone on the ground...PERIOD.

YOU chose to make the jump, the audience is there to be entertained not maimed...YOU hurt yourself before putting anyone else in any kind of peril. That's the name of the game and it's a real commitment you have to make.

If you have to cut away at 50 feet to keep from taking out some lady holding a baby...CaChink! ...it's IN the job description.Angelic

With that in mind one tends to be a bit more conservative in their judgement of what's practical given the conditions and skill level.

You either jump LZ's easily within your ability or you work hard to bring your skills up to the level a tighter becomes 'easy'.

That being said~ shit happens and short of a tailhook there are a couple of ways to 'save' hitting the crowd.

Flat turns low if there's room...pumping the canopy hard & fast, rocking on a stall to get a vertical approach...A quick stall then diving the recovery arc into the planet hurts a bit but works too...and I've even gone to front risers 1/2 into a flare to keep from floating over the side of a tall buildings' roof LZ during a night demo into a major city.

You first do everything possible to lessen the odds you will NEED to get radical and maybe hurt yourself to keep the crowd safe.

Judgement is much more important than skill on a demo...and skill has to be pretty damn good.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jan 7, 2013, 9:52 AM
Post #36 of 47 (1046 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Smile

I can be serious,...I think...

Stoping short is and has been a vexing problem since the demise of the Paracommander.

My first point is: You can't.

Nope.

You can adjust the glide ratio of an accuracy canopy between about 2:1 in full-flight to straight down in a sink. At reasonable wing loadings (~0.7) for tight landing areas arriving in 3/4 brakes still allows for a flare and comfortable stand-up landing approaching somewhat steeper than 1:1.

You can turn a modern canopy when flaring to kill your forward speed and use up a lot less runway. Brian Germain elucidates on the hockey stop landing:

http://"http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=920387;search_string=hockey%20stop;#920387

If you just need a little less distance you can pop-up a modern canopy and stall it to kill the forward speed (this works best for sport or zone accuracy where you have pea gravel or sand to soften your landing if you're a little over-exuberant gaining altitude).

Obviously, avoiding the situation is the best idea unless you're landing in a small dead-end where landing short isn't an option - aiming a little long and stopping short as necessary beats not making the landing area due to a slight wind increase or misjudgement.

Finally you may not need to land short, just in a slightly different location. Modern canopies turn great when flaring and IIRC the unguided meat missile that spawned this thread would have been fine if he turned right to avoid the people.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jan 7, 2013, 10:14 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 10:43 AM
Post #37 of 47 (1016 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

>Your question also has framed the situation that you are travelling at a high forward
>speed,...the antithisis of what every accuracy jumper is trying to do...when they make
>steep, high brake approaches. So everyone go get a Zero, or a ParaFoil, this might be
>your answer and all of this is covered in detail with a pro-rating???

Yes and no. Boats (accuracy canopies, BASE canopies etc) are great for accuracy approaches, but cause problems for accuracy in winds. In a demo into downtown San Francisco a while back, my aircraft was landing at Marina Green, a massive, wide open landing area. All the ZP canopies landed within 20 meters of the target - several of the BASE canopies almost didn't make the landing area at all since the winds were strong. You need the right tools for the job.

In addition, sometimes newer demo jumpers make the mistake of jumping a new canopy for a demo that they feel will be safer because it's slower, more porous, sinks better etc. And those are indeed good characteristics for steep low-wind approaches, but using a new canopy for a demo jump is a terrible idea. The canopy you take into any demo should be one you are intimately familiar with.

Thirdly, modern parachutes give you a tremendous amount of control. If you have a modern, moderately loaded high performance parachute (say a Safire at around 1.5 to 1) and you find yourself at 250 feet about to land long you can:

-S turn and recover before landing
-front riser to get on the ground fast and then slide it out
-front riser to get on the ground fast, then once your feet are on (or just above) the ground, turn hard in either direction
-front riser to get on the ground fast and then hard-stall the canopy (hard to do, since modern canopies are designed to NOT do this; generally requires wraps or lots of rear riser)


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 1:34 PM
Post #38 of 47 (993 views)
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Re: [billvon] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent point's,...

But I'm reading the originals post to literally "Stop Short."

I'm being real hard line on this one because of the numerous questions that well intention'ed but neverless well meaning individuals have created for students...based upon the number of times I have been asked exactly this same question...by students.
C
(This is really a topic where we need to define our audience, perhaps...as an example>>> The following discussion is meant for students only, ...as compared with >>> The following discussion is meant for highly experienced canopy pilots that want to learn to crash at the last min.) Smile


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 1:35 PM
Post #39 of 47 (991 views)
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the safety and Training section, right???

In reply to:
In reply to:
It might be my mood??? but this thread/post is driving me nuts,...it's like a total waste of time period.

I understand how you feel about that. I realized about a day after I started the thread that people might focus on the "comments on demo jumper hits spectators" thinking that we moved that discussion from the Incidents forum.

What I would have liked to see was people discussing the possibility of teaching people how to "stop short".

We got some of that. Anyone want to keep going? (By the way, no one responded to my example. How would you keep from hitting the child?)

I believe the question was: "Full Stop."

This whole thread really begs the question of Drill! And by drill I mean going back to: "The Landing Pattern."

1000' enter the "Landing Pattern," turn at 600, 300 etc, etc..

And a "Zero" is a modern canopy which can be flown vertically at about 3/4 brakes, or so I have been told, and if everyone was driving a Zero this post wouldn't exist.Smile
And I'm not the one to tell or even hint to the vast majority of divers out there to start practicing the "Hockey Stop," and we have already mentioned turning to avoid. This mess all starts in and at having a good pattern...not learning to avoid and IGNORE Newton's laws. You’re in motion until your on the ground! You can not stop short, this still stands!!! I recall that Brian’s Hockey stop is more to shorten the swoop distance via a turn than anything else???

"You can turn a modern canopy when flaring to kill your forward speed. " NOW YOU HAVE SIDEWAYS SPEED!!!
And this discussion takes us away from having a good solid pattern, once again.

"Obviously, avoiding the situation is the best idea, " again also quoting Brian: “Your rights end where the rights of others begin,”…”you are killing my sport.”

You said it , not me!

But this post does take away from what got you into the situation in the first place, muddled thinking about trying to save lost causes gives me hives and again I’m not going to advocate practices that will eventually hurt someone! We are in this situation because of poor pre-planning and a botched pattern! Start with the landing pattern… FIX THE PROBLEM THERE!
How many of us out there would bring this subject up with a student…by the time your explaining your “just another tool in your kit way of thinking,…” the student yanked hard on his/her brakes to stop short and low and behold they extended their glide right into the very object they are trying to avoid.” Do you give yourself a big pat on the back then??
In fact many are trying to drop the “Brake” Versus “Toggle” terminology in the first place. I personally have had this same conversation with confused students on multiple occasions! “Why do we call them brakes? At this point I personally try very hard to limit my vocabulary and constantly refer to the TOGGLES as Toggles…more than a few have gotten confused when someone explains how to pull to half brakes to go farther,…and then for some inexplicable reason when faced with the screw up road rash or worse: diver v. object, they pull on the brakes to stop short because they think in their heads that’s what brakes do.
AND again: this discussion takes us away from having a good solid pattern, once again.

I mean no disrespect to any of the prior post’s, and Artwardo is spot on when confirming what the Military guys have said to me in the past. But every time individuals engage in this conversation, it takes away from the basics, it’s kind of a you have only so much time in a conversation, especially with students, to spend, or perhaps say: waste this time, as compared with practicing your patterns, and drilling the heck out of the pattern! Why muddle someone’s head and create issues that don’t exist? Spend the time reviewing the proper pattern, Why do you think that the subject of the pattern is rehearsed so many times as part of the ISP? Kripes by the time you hit a Cat H level, by DESIGN we have rehearsed the pattern at least 50 times!
Now if we want to limit this discussion to individuals with say about 500 or more jumps with wing loading’s of 2.0 and above feel free to thrash the Hockey stop to death,…but no one has done this yet??
Other than that…. there is now way to suddenly stop and this conversation has created more harm than good by planting the seed of indecision at a critical moment!
Although I trust the OP’s intent was to promote discussion and I await the day the technology brings an end to the accuracy competition, we are not there yet.
C


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 7, 2013, 3:00 PM
Post #40 of 47 (975 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

>This is really a topic where we need to define our audience, perhaps...

I thought in this case students would understand that it wasn't applicable since "demo jumper" was in the title; that's pretty clearly targeted at demo jumpers. But you are right; it can never hurt to be explicit if there is any question.


ChrisD  (No License)

May 25, 2013, 10:38 AM
Post #41 of 47 (750 views)
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Re: [billvon] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>This is really a topic where we need to define our audience, perhaps...

I thought in this case students would understand that it wasn't applicable since "demo jumper" was in the title; that's pretty clearly targeted at demo jumpers. But you are right; it can never hurt to be explicit if there is any question.

There is another point to resurecting this thread,

firstly this is not for students,...

here goes:

Grab your A lines and pull ?

C


airtwardo  (D License)

May 25, 2013, 12:01 PM
Post #42 of 47 (737 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
billvon wrote:
>This is really a topic where we need to define our audience, perhaps...

I thought in this case students would understand that it wasn't applicable since "demo jumper" was in the title; that's pretty clearly targeted at demo jumpers. But you are right; it can never hurt to be explicit if there is any question.

There is another point to resurecting this thread,

firstly this is not for students,...

here goes:

Grab your A lines and pull ?

C

Explain to me what exactly you believe that would do in regard to stopping short.

Why would you pull only the A's and not just the fronts?

Understand I'm not flaming you on this, I think it could open a valuable discussion so give me your thoughts & reasoning.

Detail an example in which your idea might be of benefit in stopping a canopy quickly. Canopy type-winds-LZ size etc.


ChrisD  (No License)

May 25, 2013, 1:15 PM
Post #43 of 47 (724 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Pull the outside A lines, NOT the whole front rizer, spills air, keeps canopy pressurized, how you drop is up to you, I suggest you recover, but this depends upon canapie size. Flare.
C

Obviously try at altitude,...

Just a suggestion
C Crazy


airtwardo  (D License)

May 25, 2013, 5:30 PM
Post #44 of 47 (681 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
Pull the outside A lines, NOT the whole front rizer, spills air, keeps canopy pressurized, how you drop is up to you, I suggest you recover, but this depends upon canapie size. Flare.
C

Obviously try at altitude,...

Just a suggestion
C Crazy



Interesting...I'll try it tomorrow.Wink


grue  (D License)

May 27, 2013, 3:42 AM
Post #45 of 47 (592 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

ianmdrennan wrote:
In reply to:
'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've done something wrong.'

Short sighted, and inaccurate. There are a legitimate reasons you could have to land downwind.

Off field landing
FMD Pattern set the wrong way
Variable wind conditions, or winds switched after takeoff (on a preset landing direction DZ for example).
etc

Ian

Too right. My first jump back after a 14 month layoff was set downwind by FMD, that was amusing in a "Welp, let's see if I can remember how to fly this thing" sort of way Laugh

Wasn't most picture-perfect tippy-toe landing ever, but you were a witness to the ugliest one I've ever had and this was better than that :P


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 27, 2013, 6:46 AM
Post #46 of 47 (552 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have not flared on more than one occasion, no plf, no flare, etc,. It requires a certian amount of practice and such to drive your heels into the ground without tumbling face first, end over end...
I'm sure you know that driving your heels into the ground is the next-to-last thing you'd ever want to do. One of the exceptions is on demos where it's your only remaining option to avoid hitting spectator.

In reply to:
Sliding in is problamatic in that it takes away time of teaching and practicing a plf. And from personal experience and being present at more than a few hard hits your tailbone is not as strong as many people think it is, never mind the intentional risk you face when you expose your spine to the forces that can do some permanent damage, by advocating sliding in.

With brisk vertical speed, agreed. With low vertical speed sliding is a valid option...if you know how to do it properly, i.e., the 'baseball' slide. Another low vertical speed option is letting your legs drag along behind you something like a 'Superman"...just like the beginning of a PLF.

In reply to:
what your advocating results in someone getting hurt, or at least increasing the risk of injury.
Ummmmm...there's always a risk, yes. But let's not talk absolutes. And, I agree that sometimes things we have to do increases risk...and at times where last-second decisions are being made, the decision nearly always includes determining which of the options presents the greatest chance of success with the smallest increase in risk. Sometimes, those options are limited to best chance of success with high increase in risk.

In reply to:
The way you have framed the question also implies that somewhere prior to this last second stop...there has been an judgment in error,...we need to spend our time there rather than spending time trying to save a bad situation.
Ummmm....I'm in the camp of yes, learn the 'perfect world' stuff AND the 'world goes to shit' stuff.

In reply to:
I cannot support teaching a sliding stop because it takes away and competes with a plf and proper preparation.
I support it because it puts one more tool into your skydiving toolbox. It's OK to have too many tools, not so much on having shortage.


ChrisD  (No License)

May 27, 2013, 9:10 AM
Post #47 of 47 (527 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for that,..

I really didn't want to get into the plf at high speed thing, and yes diggin your heels in, depending on the speed, will sometimes determine how much altitude,...you then crash!

And hitting you ass, after an approrate heel trench session, can end you (period.)

Yes you should know when and where to slide in!

Again know your audience, I don't advocate sliding in for students for the same reasons, additionally except for down wind ( and then why are they there) students hopefully have something above in the below .8 range and sliding isn't in the cards! That was my point.

If you want to avoid, overshooting, you can try pulling the outermost A lines, remember to flare, I didn't say it's going to be pretty though! But you do drop to the ground!

"Ummmm....I'm in the camp of yes, learn the 'perfect world' stuff AND the 'world goes to shit' stuff."

Ditto,...
C
Wink

I didn't want to rehash what had already been said, but as another points out: " a simple turn would have prevented the whole thing."

Heck why are they trying to land on the line anyways???

50 feet back, 100 feet back, 200 feet back,...Does anyone in the crowd really care??? Do they know the difference???

CUnsure


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