Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

The111  (D 29246)

Jan 2, 2013, 3:13 PM
Post #51 of 122 (1517 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I need to work is my tracking while on a wingsuit.

I think the real goal should be to not get into a situation where only better tracking in a wingsuit can save you. I probably have the ability to fly in from 5 miles over the ocean (with the right suit and conditions), but I'd never try. Planning, in many cases, is much more important than flight skills.

You mentioned that you flew out to sea for only 5-8 seconds before turning back. How far out were you when you exited?


parkair  (D 33246)

Jan 2, 2013, 3:47 PM
Post #52 of 122 (1481 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The111] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

This website has a small weather station that gives accurate winds at the Inlet. It's about 2 miles south of the landing area.

http://www.sebastianinletcam.com/


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 6:28 PM
Post #53 of 122 (1397 views)
Shortcut
Re: [parkair] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish I had known that. Also, I wonder why the dz didn't. And perhaps maybe they do and the person I asked just wasn't familiar with this site. It's neither here or there at this point! That was the red flag for me to pull off but I didn't. If I can't get the answers I need I should no have been on the jump. But I'm happy you shared that info with me for next time. Thank you


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 2, 2013, 7:16 PM
Post #54 of 122 (1358 views)
Shortcut
Re: Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as wingsuit vs. canopy glide ratio, that a couple people mentioned, I can see that "generally" it is easy to get fooled into thinking the wingsuit is better, maybe because it gets you places faster.

But if you are talking about the type of situation in this thread, opening high and facing a strong headwind with a relatively lightly loaded canopy, you're going to have crap penetration. Hell, you might be coming straight down when fighting stronger upper winds. Flying the wingsuit, even a smaller one without having great skills, might well do better in glide ratio.

Then flying the wingsuit as long as possible as consistent with safety, is the right thing to do.





===========
You can skip the rest unless you want some numbers to give an example of the above:


In this case, maybe the wind was blowing directly out to sea. I don't know if that was the case, given the report of SSW wind, but let's say the winds were more from the west, assuming we're talking about a north-southish Florida shore.

Let's say the winds were 15 mph at the surface where one would be under canopy in any case, and just 20 mph up high -- that's a pretty conservative situation, not really much offshore wind at all for the uppers -- when typically it might be a lot more given those surface winds.

Or you could say that the 20 is the out to sea component of a stronger 28 mph wind angled 45 degrees to the shoreline. Same thing.

Using very inexact numbers, say a novice wingsuiter does a 1.5 glide ratio, 60 mph down, 90 mph horizontal. (Too good?? I dunno.)

Under a non-ground hungry bigger canopy, the jumper does a decent 2.5 glide ratio, 30 mph forward speed, thus 12 mph down.

(If you add brakes or rears, it probably isn't going to improve the over-ground glide ratio much if at all, when going into a moderate head wind. So we'll skip calculating that.)

But add the 20 mph headwind:
The wingsuit is now 60 down, 70 forward, just over 1:1 glide ratio.

The canopy is now 10 mph fwd, 12 mph down, or just under 1:1 glide ratio.

Of course all numbers can change. If the wingsuiter only achieves a 1:1 ratio in still air, they will be worse than the canopy into the wind. Or if the wind is 30 mph, the person under canopy is coming straight down.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 2, 2013, 8:08 PM
Post #55 of 122 (1332 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danhack] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be interested to know what kind of rescue boat solution was planned for this jump or for similar beach jumps. It's great to have a regulation to carry floatation devices and to be water landing trained but that won't do a bit of good if you get carried out to sea.

Shit can and will happen, we all know that. It would be a shame if this had ended in tradegy if some ransom kayakers or fishing boats weren't close enough to see and provided rescue.

Personally I am pretty nervous around deep water. I am pretty sure I heard Skydive Dubai has a rescue boat and driver on hand during operating hours. Seems like something similar would be wise for any beach jump. If you have to have a load wear floatation devices there should be a plan to get them out of the water.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 10:12 PM
Post #56 of 122 (1275 views)
Shortcut
Re: [WickedWingsuits] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

There is nothing planned at this Dz or not on this particular day. I said the same thing and so did many divers out there. I was in the water for over 30 minutes before an actual skydiver came out to me on some locals kayak. If it wasnt for her I would have been out a little longer. But, one of my friends also came out with a locals kayak so he ended up getting the canopy for me. But, I feel all Dz's who offer beach jumps should provide some type of emergecncy back up.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 3, 2013, 6:57 AM
Post #57 of 122 (1168 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is nothing planned at this Dz or not on this particular day. I said the same thing and so did many divers out there. I was in the water for over 30 minutes before an actual skydiver came out to me on some locals kayak. If it wasnt for her I would have been out a little longer. But, one of my friends also came out with a locals kayak so he ended up getting the canopy for me. But, I feel all Dz's who offer beach jumps should provide some type of emergecncy back up.

I think so also. Even if it means extra cost on the jump ticket. Just as a HA load includes O2 a beach load should include water rescue.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jan 3, 2013, 8:19 AM
Post #58 of 122 (1117 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Star,

Before "first" - VERY glad you kept your head, used your training and came out of this safe.

First, THANK YOU for coming here and posting. Much better to get information straight from the source than all the "well, _I_ have better rumors than your rumors".

Second (not that it should need to be said) Thanks for taking responsibility for your own choices. Sounds like you made a mistake (we all have) applied your training to keep it from getting worse, and are attempting to learn all you can from it.

Lastly, while I DO think discussion on a specific incident needs to focus on that situation, it will inevitably lead to discussions of similar situations and what others have seen, done, said, etc... Unfortunately that is the nature of people talkin'. For those things that were not applicable to your situation, let'em roll off. For example, I have seen female jumpers given encouragement to go along on stuff when a equal male jumper would not have been allowed. You say its not applicable here, and I take your word for it, but as a general discussion, that type of question is appropriate to ask. It helps us all watch out for issues in the future.

Stay safe, keep learning, and keep posting... it helps me learn through your experiences too.

Jim
Cool


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:16 AM
Post #59 of 122 (1074 views)
Shortcut
Re: [WickedWingsuits] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I have done 20 or so beach jumps there. If you can't find a safe place on 5000 miles or more of beach, you should not be jumping on the beach. Sure stuff goes wrong. I got turned around and couldn't find the LZ till i was to low to get there but I landed and walked to SBI. There is always a briefing with pictures. I have corrected the spot given by the pilot. I just do not see the point of a boat. YMMV


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:05 AM
Post #60 of 122 (1036 views)
Shortcut
Re: [fcajump] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the great feedback. I have already seen through the threads how quickly one incident can be turned into something that it is not. As I said before, I know and understand my mistake and it really is no different then a group of free flyers coming together, making a jump together and a few of them landing off. Each one would take the blame for their own actions. I do not want this thread to be about anyone but me. I am the jumper in the water, I am the person who took the tickets and manifested, I am the one who got on the plane. I am glad that we can put this behind us and move forward to bigger and better things. I don't blame anyone but myself and am not ashamed to admit to this. Will I use more precautionary measures for now on, of course I will. So, I hope we wrap this thing up and move forward.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:49 AM
Post #61 of 122 (993 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bodypilot90] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sure stuff goes wrong.
.
.
.
I just do not see the point of a boat. YMMV

You answered your own question.
With experience comes knowledge.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:57 AM
Post #62 of 122 (979 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you misunderstand the drifting of these threads.
One major purpose really is to learn what happened so we can avoid making the same mistakes.

Until we know exactly what happened, it's healthy to discuss what could have happened....hence what some simply blow off as "speculation". Indeed, that's what it is but it is a mistake to blow it off as meaningless or unneeded.

Even the misguided posts saying something like, "The jumper did XYZ" when, in fact, that is not really known, generate discussion that is most often helpful...particularly to the youngsters just starting out.

Some blow off "speculation". I embrace it as a learning opportunity.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 11:10 AM
Post #63 of 122 (965 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

And maybe you are correct. Apparently it has been 7 years since last water landing from what I understand. So, maybe not. But, then again, the swimmer may not be a strong swimmer regardless of water training. So, it is just one of those things I suppose. It was great that locals offered up the kayaks though. It really helped all of us.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 11:23 AM
Post #64 of 122 (947 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

With that being said then. I am truly glad I ended up coming on here then. You are correct in saying what you did. I am glad I was able to get all the speculation corrected. I don't feel anyone blew off the speculation and that is why I personally waited to see where all of it would go for sure. As I said before, positive and negative feedback are important key factors in the learning process for all of us young and older jumpers. I truly learned a lot from all sides of this story. Just glad I got to share the REAL story.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 3, 2013, 1:03 PM
Post #65 of 122 (861 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you please share exactly what you learned?
I still get the feeling you missed it.
All of it actually.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 2:25 PM
Post #66 of 122 (798 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

What part of any of my comments made you feel that I did not learn from this. I am just a tad confused with why you feel I have not learned from this.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 2:32 PM
Post #67 of 122 (785 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you tell us a bit about your WS progression / experience?

What suit (your own? Rental? Type?) were you wearing on this jump?

# of previous jumps on this WS (style size & type)?

Can you also tell us about your WS learning experience and venues? - Formalized structured FFS Course, or just access/learning from other available WS'rs/mentors?

In retrospect now - do you think it advisable to attempt a WS beach jump at your (both total jumps, and/or just WS-specific) experience level?

What should others who may be here now on the outside looking in on (and maybe even considering trying) - take away from this?

Glad everything worked out over all for you, and as others have said - that this did not turn out terribly worse, and so now too - so that all of us can (hopefully) have better actual opportunity to learn from it.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:06 PM
Post #68 of 122 (748 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Scrumpot] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

My wingsuit progression has been slow since Sept when I took my course. I only have about 22 jumps on it. I have a phantom2 and it is the only suit I have ever jumped. It was customized for me. I leanred to ws at my own dz and took the ffc course there. I have only worked with small groups. I find myself always being behind the group mostly observing using the others as a point of reference mainly. I have not jumped my suit alone. I normally just jump with two or three people at a time. Most the jumpers I jump with all have over 250 and more ws jumps. I jump every weekend at my dz but i mix up my ws and my ff. So, I do not make all my jumps during one day just on my ws. I have only been to a few dz's since flying the suit, sebastian I had been to twice in a month timeframe. It was my first beach jump period and it was my first ws beach jump. To be honest with you, I can't really say that I feel a person should not make a ws beach jump at my experience level because every person is different in their learning abilities. Some excel faster than others. In general speaking terms, if every person was me, then I would say no ws beach jumps with only 22 under their belt. I am a strong skydiver but I will admit that I am by far a strong wingsuit jumper at this point. I would say to others with equal or less experience to really pay attention to their own skill levels, strongly evaluate their own skill levels with any discipline and even ask the more experienced skydivers in that same discipline who may know you well what they think about your skill level. I have a lot of things I need to re-evaluate. So, I have decided to stay clear of boogies for awhile, work on one discipline instead of mixing them up, working with those who are extremely experienced in that discipline and read as much as I can about my discipline. Get the facts, learn better navigational skills, perfect those skills. Does that all make sense? I am an open book here. Any great advice will be taken to heart. I am your sponge. I want to be safe, I want to learn as much as I can.


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Jan 3, 2013, 3:18 PM
Post #69 of 122 (730 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Over the years, I've known quite a few people who have made mistakes (myself included!), many of them with thousands more jumps than you...and a lot of them area dead. You are taking a lot of heat here, but it's not like you are the first skydiver to make a mistake. I give you a lot of credit for facing your critics and having a conversation with them. Most people won't come on here and do that! For that, I respect you.

Yes, you made a bad decision; but I be you won't do THAT again, huh? Wink


kharris815

Jan 3, 2013, 3:35 PM
Post #70 of 122 (720 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well said my girl. I can assure everyone she LEARNED from this :) We all did..


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:54 PM
Post #71 of 122 (702 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Kat, for the added details, your candor, and the considered answers. I truly hope that us doing this is actually helping everybody.

In considering that you say you did take a formalized FFS course (I don't need you to identify which one ..trust me, that is NOT where I am going - so many people think everyone has got merely all these "ulterior motives" - I do not) - Would you mind please also answering what made you choose (or just "accept"/go on) your exit spot? Who (yourself, or someone more experienced?) was leading your group in flight? And lastly (at least for this round of Q's Wink) - Why during the jump, or - what was it apparently still even now - that made you think your wingsuit would have given you a better glide angle / longer (distance) flight than your open canopy?

Thank you (seriously) for "participating" in your "own" thread's discussion.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jan 3, 2013, 3:55 PM)


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:12 PM
Post #72 of 122 (639 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Scrumpot] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I made the call to exit the plane because the spot did not look bad to me. I looked around myself and it looked ok but again it was my first beach jump. I really don't think that we were out so far as to not be able to make it back safely. And the jumped really was not organized by any individual at all. Myself and my friend manifested us and we all together decided to keep the jump simple. But, the actual jump itself was not organized by one person. When I exited the plane, I seen the other two wingsuiters ahead of me so I flew for several seconds and then turned back. There was not a base.

Because I still feel comfortable opening at the 5 mark, I opened this time as well. When I adjusted myself and started flying my canopy, I just felt winds against me not pushing me towards the beach. I turned and angled myself left, right, straight, and I think because I opened at that altitude the winds could have very well been shifting verses what was below me or on the beach. In my opinion, I just feel that with the lack of wingsuit experience, it would have made more sense to me to continue flying the wingsuit as close as possible but still being able to open at a safe altitude. I have had mixed opinions about this by others. I really think that my best option would have been to stay on the ws a little longer. I made a jump on Thursday at the dz. I opened at 5. I was over the tree line to the west, I got no penetration at all, finally I got down to the 2500 mark, and I was moving like wild fire. So, that is what I am trying to explain is that maybe just maybe if I had opened a little lower, I would have made it back. I don't know. Being on a 7 cell 150 and being so lightly loaded not to mention the additional drag I had on me just by having a ws on didn't help matters. Do I feel at my level I would have made it back even if I had opened lower, no. With that being said, I seriously need to work on my navigational skills and this is my goal. I don't pretend to have all the answers. God knows I don't. But, I do know that I made a bad call and it could have cost me. Thankfully it did not. When you are in the middle of making jumps, and your so excited about the jumps, sometimes you just forget the small things. I think the biggest mistake I made was not asking enough people about what the winds were doing over there, what the winds aloft were, and understanding the importance of wingsuiting over the water, especially the ocean. I can honestly say, this will never ever happen ever again. I have 300 jumps, I have only had one off landing and I made that choice at 2500 feet. That was last year on dry land in a huge cleared field. I know I only have 22 ws jumps but this was my first off landing. And because of the magnitude of this off landing, I have learned a great deal and am thankful for it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:17 PM
Post #73 of 122 (632 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I truly learned a lot from all sides of this story. Just glad I got to share the REAL story.

And THAT, my young beauty, is the point of it all. I hope this learning gets rolled over into other aspects of your skydiving, too. Thanks again for sharing.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:28 PM
Post #74 of 122 (620 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skymama] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Skymama. OOOH YEAH, I have learned a great deal from everyone. I must say that I am impressed by all that have come on here and stated their opinions and gave advice. I would have never thought I would catch so much heat from so many people. But, I love it, I eat it, sleep it, and deserve it. My critics are the very ones who I will learn from the most. I really think that people come on here because they give a damn about me and others and it makes them mad to see a fellow skydiver make a mistake like this when it could have been prevented if only they had been able to work with me, or if I had been at their dz so that they could teach me. It's like my own DZ, everyone takes the younger jumpers under their belts and they mold them into fine pieces of art. That is exactly what is happening here and I welcome it all with open arms because BOTTOM LINE IS THAT I EFFED UP.. Some of my friends that do not skydive said to me, What is the big deal, you landed in the water. I turned them and said, "HUH, I am so sorry you don't get it but I am facing a TORNADO right now full of upset experienced skydivers who havent a clue as to who I am but are pissed off because it should not have happened in the first place. I told them that our community already gets enough heat as it is from our local counties, FAA, and other places, we don't need anymore heat. So, I let everyone scald me, mold me, pick my brain. I am very capable of handling every bit of it.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:31 PM
Post #75 of 122 (617 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks A. I appreciate all of it. Oh it will roll over in my everyday life, :)


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Incidents

 


Search for (options)