Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012

 

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rbignon  (D 237927)

Dec 31, 2012, 9:42 AM
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Your facts are incorrect. These are FACTS

- It was a 4 way
-2 jumpers did land in the water
-The one who landed 1/2 mile out does not have 300 ws jumps ... perhaps 300 total if thats what your saying but i cant confirm if thats true.
- Also incorrect one of the other jumpers swam out to help

- Everyone is ok,

Many people may getting information from those who where at the event but not on the beach jumps.


(This post was edited by rbignon on Dec 31, 2012, 9:43 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 31, 2012, 9:45 AM
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
-both jumpers were females so this was not a case of males inviting them to do something they weren't ready for

Who told them to jump wingsuits on a beach jump? Who stepped up and told them not to, or adivsed them of the pitfalls of doing so?

Just because a dude wasn't on the jump doesn't mean there wasn't one either encouraging, suggesting, or hold their tounge in an attempt to curry favor.

Again, just speculation, may not have been a factor in this case. However, it's a learning point for others, and it's important to know that the 'problem' comes in many forms, not just some dude inviting you into a big way he happens to be organizing.


onepeter315  (C 40498)

Dec 31, 2012, 10:26 AM
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Re: [rbignon] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

rbignon - Not sure where you are getting your info from. While I was not at the event, my facts are coming directly from one of the two jumpers involved.

-We are in agreement that 2 jumpers landed in the water.
-I never said one of the jumpers had 300 WS jumps. I said 300 jumps. So yes, I mean 300 total jumps.
-I never said a jumper swam out to help so maybe you got that from another post?


onepeter315  (C 40498)

Dec 31, 2012, 10:32 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka - I don't know the details as to how the jump came about as I was not there. Because of that, I'm not willing to make any speculations as so many others seem to be doing in this thread.

Male or female, we all need to know our limits in this sport and stick to them. Each jumper is responsible for their decisions, good or bad, despite any influences around them.


lawrocket  (Student)

Dec 31, 2012, 1:48 PM
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Each jumper is responsible for their decisions, good or bad, despite any influences around them.

Thats well and good, but these decisions are also based on information that they are provided. If someone has 300 jumps and someone or some people with vastly higher jump numbers says, No problem. You can handle it then the person is a bit more likely to disregard his or her own caution.

Does one blame a person for bad decisions if the person is being fed bad information that, by its nature, is supposed to be trustworthy?


onepeter315  (C 40498)

Dec 31, 2012, 2:15 PM
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Re: [lawrocket] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

You proved my point. If jumpers know their limits and still choose to disregard his or her own caution, they are the only ones at fault. No one forces us to disregard our individual cautions/limits. When we learn to skydive, we learn that ultimately, we are the only ones responsible for our skydive.

So again, it's not a male or female issue. Anyone can tell another jumper "you can handle it" but it's up to the jumper to make the final choice.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 31, 2012, 3:04 PM
Post #32 of 122 (2101 views)
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You proved my point. If jumpers know their limits and still choose to disregard his or her own caution, they are the only ones at fault. No one forces us to disregard our individual cautions/limits. When we learn to skydive, we learn that ultimately, we are the only ones responsible for our skydive.

So again, it's not a male or female issue. Anyone can tell another jumper "you can handle it" but it's up to the jumper to make the final choice.


The flaw in your logic, and I am not pointing this at this incident, is the the bad decisions of others has a wide reaching effect on many other people. Like it or not, if this sport is to survive in our overly sue happy society, we must remain somewhat our brothers keeper.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 31, 2012, 5:00 PM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The flaw in your logic, and I am not pointing this at this incident, is the the bad decisions of others has a wide reaching effect on many other people. Like it or not, if this sport is to survive in our overly sue happy society, we must remain somewhat our brothers keeper.

True, dat...how many young jumper can actually give themselves an honest and accurate evaluation of their skills? So what do they do? They "listen" to the experienced people who, the youngster thinks, has a better perception of his skill. That's reality.

"I don't know if I'm good enough or not but Skygod says I am, so let's go!

We won't talk about the ones who say,
"Screw them. I know what I'm doing and I don't need some old fart telling what I don't wanna hear anyway."


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 31, 2012, 5:02 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 31, 2012, 5:09 PM
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Re: [DSE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I agree with the SIM's water hazard procedure except for one thing:

Loosening leg straps.

It's my experience that leg straps do NOT need to be loosened at all. It is way too easy to push them down and off your legs even at normal tightness when getting out of the gear.

Out of the hundreds of B-license training sessions I have led, not one student has had a problem with that even in the water.

Anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of students trying to loosen legstraps in the air?

AND...how would that apply or not to wingsuiting EPs for water landings?


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Dec 31, 2012, 9:23 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... or hold their tongue in an attempt to curry favor.

I know NONE of the details around this incident, but I do know and have seen this one line result in somebody get broken... sigh. Frown

While we are ultimately responsible for our own skydives, we (other skydivers) do need to step up and tell people when they are in over their heads, regardless of if they have boobs or not. Unsure


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 1, 2013, 12:16 PM
Post #36 of 122 (1725 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I too, disagree with the half-recommendation the SIM offers on loosening legstraps, wingsuit or not.
One cannot easily loosen legstraps in a wingsuit that has been unzipped, unless everything is out of the way, and even then it's a challenge. We tried this on several jumps during the water-landing experiments we did a couple years ago.
Loosening legstraps -may- cause a turn, may make it challenging to reach toggles, and may allow the jumper to stall the canopy more easily (it likely wouldn't matter in most water landings).
In a wingsuit, the best thing to do is land, lie on the back, and unzip/undo legstraps.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 2, 2013, 6:40 AM
Post #37 of 122 (1476 views)
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Re: [DSE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I too, disagree with the half-recommendation the SIM offers on loosening legstraps, wingsuit or not.
One cannot easily loosen legstraps in a wingsuit that has been unzipped, unless everything is out of the way, and even then it's a challenge. We tried this on several jumps during the water-landing experiments we did a couple years ago.
Loosening legstraps -may- cause a turn, may make it challenging to reach toggles, and may allow the jumper to stall the canopy more easily (it likely wouldn't matter in most water landings).
In a wingsuit, the best thing to do is land, lie on the back, and unzip/undo legstraps.


...and people wonder why ALL my rigs have B-12's


michalm21  (Student)

Jan 2, 2013, 7:11 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...and people wonder why ALL my rigs have B-12's

To disconnect when you land in water in a middle of the ocean? What's those odds 1:100000000?
Pretty silly (in kind words) it that's your major reason.


(This post was edited by michalm21 on Jan 2, 2013, 7:12 AM)




mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jan 2, 2013, 8:15 AM
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Re: [michalm21] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

If you look at the kind of jumps Twardo does, probably not all that silly or anywhere near those odds. Ask him to tell you the one about a SWAT team member only just grabbing him in time to stop him sailing straight off the top of a high rise he was landing on. Probably also helps when getting out of the explosives he straps to himself at night...

We should all evaluate the risks of our own particular jump pattern and gear up accordingly. You and me might not feel the need for B-12's but Twardo's [jumping into] a whole different ball game.


danhack

Jan 2, 2013, 8:46 AM
Post #41 of 122 (1352 views)
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is a lot of hearsay and speculation. The facts from those involved are:

-2 way WS jump
-both jumpers landed in ocean
-the jumper that landed 1/2 mi out has over 300 jumps and wasn't jumping new gear. She also has a home DZ and is not an "event jumper".
-the second jumper landed 1/4 mi out but has less jump and WS experience.
-both jumpers were females so this was not a case of males inviting them to do something they weren't ready for

this. yes flotation was required and checked. both made it back with most of their gear. word was one or both got picked up by kayakers


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2013, 9:14 AM
Post #42 of 122 (1316 views)
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Re: [danhack] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I had someone that was on this load and exited prior to the wingsuiters pass info on that there were 3 wingsuiters in the plane and the freefall group had opened about a mile out to sea and flew back to the beach. The solo wingsuiter landed on the beach The ground winds were SSE at about 15-18 mph and the jump run was though to have been SSW. from the ground it looked like the jumper that had landed closer to shore was trying to crab against the wind to land to land near the designated landing area but had they flown straight to the shore they would potentially have made it to dry land but would have had a long walk back.


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Jan 2, 2013, 9:43 AM
Post #43 of 122 (1287 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not replying to anyone in particular, but sometimes mistakes just happen:

1. Winds might have picked up
2. Suggestion that there were 3 wingsuiters on the aircraft suggests 2 groups - the more experienced 2-way may have opted to take a less desirable flight pattern in order to maintain separation in freefall; this may have been misjudged - especially as it is also very likely that the 2-way were unaware of the other wingsuiter until boarding the aircraft (as often happens at boogies)
3. Judging distance and height over water is much more difficult than over land - ask any swooper. Finding oneself further away from shore than planned is very easy, and may have been an additional factor in my second point above.

I expect the parties concerned will just take this on the chin; I'm not sure much else will be gained by trying to analyse this unfortunate event further.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 10:33 AM
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Re: [Pendragon] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well here goes nothing! To stop all the speculation. Though many are concerned with the event that happened and everyone's trying to figure out what really happened! I was not even going to come on here and respond but I think it would be best that I do so. I am one of the female jumpers that landed half mile out. I am thankful for all the positive and of course the not so positive criticism that has been posted.
FACTS: four wingsuiters, two females landed in the water, one about a quarter of a mile and me about half mile. I won't comment on my friend she can do that if she chooses.
1) I am not an event jumper, I have a dz home. Majority of ally jumps are at my dz
2) I have 300 jumps total, 22 wingsuit jumps. Yes I am still learning but aren't we all
3) I have been jumping the same rig and canopy for a long time so it is not new.
4) I chose to make this jump, and I chose to make the wingsuit jump
5) I take full responsibility for my actions.
Was it easy to land in the ocean? Yes and it only takes a small amount of time to get out of the gear, wingsuit included. Did I use my water training taught by my dZo and mentor, every single bit of it. Did it work? Defiantly.
Wht did I take from all of this? I learned real quick that ou don't make excuses for what shoulda or coulda been which I have yet to do so! I learned that if you get a gut feeling you stick with it! I learned that I need to work more effectively on my wingsuit skills with one in one people.
To end the specs about female divers being cohearsed into making jumps they are not sure of. This is not a result in our situation. We were in fact amongst friends and friends I have known for over a year now. I do appreciate all the response to each and every individual who has made one on here and through out the community. I have kept up with the threads since the event happened and have taken with me. For every action, there is a reaction good or bad! So with that being said! We can move forward to bigger and better things and stop spreading rumors! I may not have 1000 jumps, I may not even have 100 wingsuit jumps! But what I still think I have are fellow skydivers who are supposed to be supportive in this sport! I feel that if you want to offer advice, give it straight and even be blunt with your opinions but make it count! Because when you try and crush on others, nobodies listening to your opinions! It goes n one ear and out the other! Yell at me, and beat the info into my head but do it with positive support! That's all for now


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 2, 2013, 11:29 AM
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the post. Cool Most, that have been around this sport for a while, know that "shit does happen". It takes a lot of courrage to come on here and tell your side. That being said, and in the interest of learning from your mistake, can you elaberate on the circumstances that led to the water landing? Exit order? Flight direction? Winds? etc. Smile


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 11:57 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks. I have no problem stating what I can remember. Before leaving the dz. I went to manifest to see what the winds were doing at the beach. I knew winds were roughly between 13-17 on the land. I asked manifest if they could give me a beach report. They stated they did not have one. I asked once again if they had access to Internet to see if they could find one. I looked on my phone and they tried to find on the computer. We could not find anything pertaining to the winds on the ground. I was told the winds were ssw and to land south. So my that's what I went with. Exit order we were last out. As we exited as a group, I looked around but seemed ok so kept tracking. I did take it out over the ocean a few seconds maybe 5-8secs, turned right back towards shore. I opened too early, between 45-5000. That was a bad decision. I should have tracked harder and opened at 25-3000. At least I would have gotten closer to shore line. No matter what I wasn't making it back and I knew this. As I opened, got my self situated, legs out of suit, arms free of course, loosened chest strap, unstowed, collapsed slider and pulled on rears best I could. At roughly about 2500, unzipped rest of suit, I did not completely loosen leg straps. Got ready for the landing. Picked legs up, stage flared the main, hit water sift enough that my head stayed above water. Looked back noticed main was filled with air pulling on me. So I chopped main. Let it go. Huge mistake, did not disconnect rsl! So much racing ny head. Looked back reserve was floating begind me, immediately got out of rig. Held on to my floatation with right hand and held into rig with left keeping the lines far away from me. Turned on my back and relaxed and floated until two other skydivers came after me and gear in kayaks. I accept full responsibilities for my actions and am pleasantly surprised out how quickly you can do ten things at once when under pressure like this. I must say this n my defense. I hope what happened with me and my friend will ensure that all dz's who offer beach jumping consider having an emergency response team available for incidents like this. Thankfully we skydivers do not hesitate to look out for one another in times of need. Believe me, I didn't come there saying, "woohoo, can't wait to land all my gear n salt water! But I must say that we had so many skydivers helping to clean and remove all sea water, sand and salt from our gear! I personally am in debt to those who not only helped get us out, carry our gear, clean our gear but also to all that offered any advice they could to ensure this never happen again. And for me, I am now able to pass that message along to others so they do not make this mistake. I hope that answers your questions.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 2, 2013, 12:34 PM
Post #47 of 122 (1088 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>>>>I opened too early, between 45-5000. That was a bad decision. I should have tracked harder and opened at 25-3000. At least I would have gotten closer to shore line. No matter what I wasn't making it back and I knew this.<<<<

Why do you feel you'll have a better glide ratio in a wingsuit vs under canopy?


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 12:50 PM
Post #48 of 122 (1059 views)
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Re: [DSE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking back at my situation, being on the ws a little longer and tracking a little faster would have gotten me closer. I think that even though I collapsed the slider, loosened up the chest pulled on the rears, I still had a lot of drag on me not to mention I turned straight to shore, left to shore, right to shore but still didn't feel much penetration. I I felt was winds pushing me sideways. I am under a 1.1 ratio as it is. Even getting the lift on that canopy still did not help! What I need to work is my tracking while on a wingsuit. Hell there r lot of things I need to work on. Like I said before, I am responsible for me.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2013, 2:21 PM
Post #49 of 122 (967 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

>I opened too early, between 45-5000. That was a bad decision. I should have
>tracked harder and opened at 25-3000.

Be careful here. Unless the winds are really howling and you are flying into them, you are better off under a canopy than in a wingsuit if you are worried about making it back.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 2, 2013, 3:04 PM
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Looking back at my situation, being on the ws a little longer and tracking a little faster would have gotten me closer.

This is a very common misconception. A canopy will nearly always fly you further than a wingsuit. If you're flying INTO a strong wind/headwind, then *perhaps* you can get some better distance in the WS as compared to a canopy.
At your skill/experience level, that would be highly unlikely that you could have "tracked further/faster."

Since you're a newer WS'r, was navigation and spotting part of your FFC program? If so, what did you do differently than you were trained to do in your FFC?

[edit] what Billvon said.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 2, 2013, 3:04 PM)


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