Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012

 


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Dec 29, 2012, 6:07 AM
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Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 Can't Post

I have had someone ask me about a potential water landing at the Invasion Boogie. Word was the jumper landed about half a mile into the ocean and had to tread water for around 30 minutes until someone was able to come get them that far out in the Atlantic Ocean.

Ocean Water temps look to be in the mid/upper 60's so hypothermia was a possibility but not likely with only 30 minutes in the water.

Does anyone know if inflation gear was being required on all the jumps or just the beach jumps? Was it being verified that inflation gear was on jumpers if they were on the beach jumps or was it just advised to have it? Was a boat standing by for rescue or did they have to find one to then get into the ocean with?

I know the Invasion Boogie had multiple planes flying at the same time but does anyone know any more details on this jump?


drdive  (D 29619)

Dec 29, 2012, 6:41 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I know no details but know they require flotation gear on all beach jumps.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 29, 2012, 11:31 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Posted on FB by the girl, Katena Houfek:

"Hey guys. I'm ok. I just tracked too far out in ws and turned to come back saw I was too far pulled at 5,000 but winds were pushing me side ways. I knew at 5 I wasn't gonna make it so started unzipping the suit and loosened chest and legs. Flared and hit the water nicely! Cut my main because it was pulling me out further. Then got floatation open and then got out of gear! All my gear is good but I lost my alti track, optima and my go pro. I'm alive but I thought I was going to be scared as hell and all I thought about was relaxing lying in back and knew someone would finally come get me. I drank a lot of salt lol. Thank goodness God was in my side! First beach jump, first wingsuit beach jump and first water landing! Sucks!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 29, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In addition to the potentials you asked about, how many "problems" do you see in her post?
Unsure








Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Dec 29, 2012, 1:20 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I had other details also sent my way. It sounds like the level of wingsuit experience was less than 10 jumps and it was on a smaller and newer female jumper. The jumper had also just got all new gear just days prior to going to the boogie.

"Don't worry, you'll probably be fine" as justification comes to mind after hearing details like this... Crazy


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Dec 30, 2012, 8:47 AM)




popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 29, 2012, 6:29 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Your info is correct on all counts. She is a local jumper.




Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 29, 2012, 8:16 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Anything posted by/about the other jumper?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 29, 2012, 9:26 PM
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Re: [The_Don] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

>Some heavy trimming on this thread all day Why?

As a reminder, the following kinds of posts are NOT OK here:

Speaker's Corner type posts concerning politics, guns or religion

Crossposts about a topic being discussed in another forum


rbignon  (D 237927)

Dec 30, 2012, 4:03 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

No Sebastian locals landed in the water it was two people from out of state visiting for invasion ( second visit)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 30, 2012, 5:44 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It sounds like the level of wingsuit experience was less than 10 jumps and it was on a smaller and newer female jumper

Based on the experience level, I have to question the idea of flying a wingsuit (or a canopy) 'out to sea'.

To me, this sounds like the same idea of flying too far downwind in the landing pattern before turning onto the base leg. If winds should pick up, and you fly too far downwind, by the time you turn into the wind for final, you may not make much forward progress, and end up short of your intended target. For this reason, you watch the winds, and adjust your pattern turn-in points accordingly. The idea is to play the odds, and not put yourself in a position where you lack 'options' if conditions should change on you.

I would suspect that this was a similar situation. If the load was spotted out over the water in any capacity, I'm sure it was for good reason. None the less, to fly yourself even further out is foolish. If you're flying a wingsuit, or tracking, or even doing CRW whgere you would need more 'real estate' to complete your skydve, orient your flight path to run parallel to shore where you fly for miles, but still not end up any further out to sea.

Additionally, the idea of 'one new thing' at a time also deserves consideration. A plie of brand new gear, a new discipline (wingsuiting), and beach jumps, sounds like far more 'new' in a short period of time.

Given that I am in 'wild speculation' mode on all of this, I'll add that a 'newer, smaller, female' sounds like a prime target for an undue amount of attention from the 'older, larger, male' jumpers, who might end up telling her whatever she wants to hear for one reason 'or another'. She may have gotten some advice or encouraged to do things that a less attractive new jumper might not have.

I've made the suggestion before that if you get two pieces of conflicting advice about skydiving, go with the safer, more conservative opinion. I'll extend that same thinking to any of the newer female jumpers who get advice from the male jumpers. Get a second opinion from a more experienced female jumper, and if it's different, go with the female's advice. If there is no experienced female, find a male jumper who is attached/married to another jumper, and ask them.

It's a fact in skydiving that pretty girls get all the attention, and one of things that experienced male jumpers can offer them is training and opportunity. Sometimes this goes beyond what what the male jumper would 'normally' consider to be safe and prudent, but we've all done stupid things for love (or a piece of ass). The trouble is, in skydiving, being overly permissive with a new jumper ends up putting them at risk in the process.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 30, 2012, 5:46 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 30, 2012, 6:14 AM
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Re: [FOR THE NEW JUMPERS OUT THERE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Please read Dave's post.

A couple of important issues are included in there.

- Be honest with yourself when you evaluate your skill level.

- Progressing slowly and in control is much, much safer than trying to short-cut and jump into situations you are not really prepared for.

- Making one change at a time is always a good idea. make one change, get used to and comfortable with that and THEN go for the next change.

- Know everything you can about a situation before you go out and do it.

- Always have a plan based on proper knowledge and stick to the plan.

- Be aware that the temptation to do questionable things is more prevalent at boogies.

- Making the incidents forum is not something to be proud of.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 30, 2012, 6:15 AM)


stratostar  (Student)

Dec 30, 2012, 7:24 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
orient your flight path to run parallel to shore where you fly for miles, but still not end up any further out to sea.

You are expecting today's "mainstream" jumpers to have a little common sense and use it.Crazy This person is lucky to still have their new gear.... and life.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Dec 30, 2012, 8:11 AM)




Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Dec 30, 2012, 9:00 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I had some additional information sent to me that this was a 2 way jump and not a solo jump so I am not sure about the other jumper in this jump except they did not seem to land in the ocean. If the other person was a more experienced wingsuiter I would ask who was setting the pattern and why did they open that far out to the sea?

It was also relayed to that this jumper is a "event jumper" and primary travels to events for their jumping and does not have a lot of jumps at a "home" DZ. I have seen this in the past that since no one ever gets to see a person every weekend, no one is there to teach them lessons or have talks with them if they see the same potentially dangerous decisions being made since they are never around people that are watching them. In the case of female jumpers it has also lead to situations where the jumper keeps getting put into situations over their head since some of the male jumpers are hoping to get in their pants at the boogie so they keep inviting them on jumps that another jumper that they know they could not sleep with would not get invited on.

I am not saying that is the case in this situation but it has been linked to some of the female related incidents in the fatality database and these forums in the past.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 30, 2012, 9:08 AM
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Re: [stratostar] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...n_The_Water_752.html

Relevant information.






danornan  (D 11308)

Dec 31, 2012, 5:07 AM
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Re: [DSE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

A very good article - Thanks for the reminder. With all of the water around Florida and the number of drop zones, I'm surprised that flotation is not required at the ones adjacent to water.


onepeter315  (C 40498)

Dec 31, 2012, 9:01 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a lot of hearsay and speculation. The facts from those involved are:

-2 way WS jump
-both jumpers landed in ocean
-the jumper that landed 1/2 mi out has over 300 jumps and wasn't jumping new gear. She also has a home DZ and is not an "event jumper".
-the second jumper landed 1/4 mi out but has less jump and WS experience.
-both jumpers were females so this was not a case of males inviting them to do something they weren't ready for


lawrocket  (Student)

Dec 31, 2012, 9:06 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Another post - an oldie that does not lose its relevance.

http://www.dropzone.com/...cgi?post=75684#75684


rbignon  (D 237927)

Dec 31, 2012, 9:42 AM
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Your facts are incorrect. These are FACTS

- It was a 4 way
-2 jumpers did land in the water
-The one who landed 1/2 mile out does not have 300 ws jumps ... perhaps 300 total if thats what your saying but i cant confirm if thats true.
- Also incorrect one of the other jumpers swam out to help

- Everyone is ok,

Many people may getting information from those who where at the event but not on the beach jumps.


(This post was edited by rbignon on Dec 31, 2012, 9:43 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 31, 2012, 9:45 AM
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
-both jumpers were females so this was not a case of males inviting them to do something they weren't ready for

Who told them to jump wingsuits on a beach jump? Who stepped up and told them not to, or adivsed them of the pitfalls of doing so?

Just because a dude wasn't on the jump doesn't mean there wasn't one either encouraging, suggesting, or hold their tounge in an attempt to curry favor.

Again, just speculation, may not have been a factor in this case. However, it's a learning point for others, and it's important to know that the 'problem' comes in many forms, not just some dude inviting you into a big way he happens to be organizing.


onepeter315  (C 40498)

Dec 31, 2012, 10:26 AM
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Re: [rbignon] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

rbignon - Not sure where you are getting your info from. While I was not at the event, my facts are coming directly from one of the two jumpers involved.

-We are in agreement that 2 jumpers landed in the water.
-I never said one of the jumpers had 300 WS jumps. I said 300 jumps. So yes, I mean 300 total jumps.
-I never said a jumper swam out to help so maybe you got that from another post?


onepeter315  (C 40498)

Dec 31, 2012, 10:32 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka - I don't know the details as to how the jump came about as I was not there. Because of that, I'm not willing to make any speculations as so many others seem to be doing in this thread.

Male or female, we all need to know our limits in this sport and stick to them. Each jumper is responsible for their decisions, good or bad, despite any influences around them.


lawrocket  (Student)

Dec 31, 2012, 1:48 PM
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Each jumper is responsible for their decisions, good or bad, despite any influences around them.

Thats well and good, but these decisions are also based on information that they are provided. If someone has 300 jumps and someone or some people with vastly higher jump numbers says, No problem. You can handle it then the person is a bit more likely to disregard his or her own caution.

Does one blame a person for bad decisions if the person is being fed bad information that, by its nature, is supposed to be trustworthy?


onepeter315  (C 40498)

Dec 31, 2012, 2:15 PM
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Re: [lawrocket] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

You proved my point. If jumpers know their limits and still choose to disregard his or her own caution, they are the only ones at fault. No one forces us to disregard our individual cautions/limits. When we learn to skydive, we learn that ultimately, we are the only ones responsible for our skydive.

So again, it's not a male or female issue. Anyone can tell another jumper "you can handle it" but it's up to the jumper to make the final choice.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 31, 2012, 3:04 PM
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You proved my point. If jumpers know their limits and still choose to disregard his or her own caution, they are the only ones at fault. No one forces us to disregard our individual cautions/limits. When we learn to skydive, we learn that ultimately, we are the only ones responsible for our skydive.

So again, it's not a male or female issue. Anyone can tell another jumper "you can handle it" but it's up to the jumper to make the final choice.


The flaw in your logic, and I am not pointing this at this incident, is the the bad decisions of others has a wide reaching effect on many other people. Like it or not, if this sport is to survive in our overly sue happy society, we must remain somewhat our brothers keeper.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 31, 2012, 5:00 PM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The flaw in your logic, and I am not pointing this at this incident, is the the bad decisions of others has a wide reaching effect on many other people. Like it or not, if this sport is to survive in our overly sue happy society, we must remain somewhat our brothers keeper.

True, dat...how many young jumper can actually give themselves an honest and accurate evaluation of their skills? So what do they do? They "listen" to the experienced people who, the youngster thinks, has a better perception of his skill. That's reality.

"I don't know if I'm good enough or not but Skygod says I am, so let's go!

We won't talk about the ones who say,
"Screw them. I know what I'm doing and I don't need some old fart telling what I don't wanna hear anyway."


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 31, 2012, 5:02 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 31, 2012, 5:09 PM
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Re: [DSE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I agree with the SIM's water hazard procedure except for one thing:

Loosening leg straps.

It's my experience that leg straps do NOT need to be loosened at all. It is way too easy to push them down and off your legs even at normal tightness when getting out of the gear.

Out of the hundreds of B-license training sessions I have led, not one student has had a problem with that even in the water.

Anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of students trying to loosen legstraps in the air?

AND...how would that apply or not to wingsuiting EPs for water landings?


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Dec 31, 2012, 9:23 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... or hold their tongue in an attempt to curry favor.

I know NONE of the details around this incident, but I do know and have seen this one line result in somebody get broken... sigh. Frown

While we are ultimately responsible for our own skydives, we (other skydivers) do need to step up and tell people when they are in over their heads, regardless of if they have boobs or not. Unsure


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 1, 2013, 12:16 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I too, disagree with the half-recommendation the SIM offers on loosening legstraps, wingsuit or not.
One cannot easily loosen legstraps in a wingsuit that has been unzipped, unless everything is out of the way, and even then it's a challenge. We tried this on several jumps during the water-landing experiments we did a couple years ago.
Loosening legstraps -may- cause a turn, may make it challenging to reach toggles, and may allow the jumper to stall the canopy more easily (it likely wouldn't matter in most water landings).
In a wingsuit, the best thing to do is land, lie on the back, and unzip/undo legstraps.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 2, 2013, 6:40 AM
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Re: [DSE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I too, disagree with the half-recommendation the SIM offers on loosening legstraps, wingsuit or not.
One cannot easily loosen legstraps in a wingsuit that has been unzipped, unless everything is out of the way, and even then it's a challenge. We tried this on several jumps during the water-landing experiments we did a couple years ago.
Loosening legstraps -may- cause a turn, may make it challenging to reach toggles, and may allow the jumper to stall the canopy more easily (it likely wouldn't matter in most water landings).
In a wingsuit, the best thing to do is land, lie on the back, and unzip/undo legstraps.


...and people wonder why ALL my rigs have B-12's


michalm21  (Student)

Jan 2, 2013, 7:11 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...and people wonder why ALL my rigs have B-12's

To disconnect when you land in water in a middle of the ocean? What's those odds 1:100000000?
Pretty silly (in kind words) it that's your major reason.


(This post was edited by michalm21 on Jan 2, 2013, 7:12 AM)




mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jan 2, 2013, 8:15 AM
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Re: [michalm21] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

If you look at the kind of jumps Twardo does, probably not all that silly or anywhere near those odds. Ask him to tell you the one about a SWAT team member only just grabbing him in time to stop him sailing straight off the top of a high rise he was landing on. Probably also helps when getting out of the explosives he straps to himself at night...

We should all evaluate the risks of our own particular jump pattern and gear up accordingly. You and me might not feel the need for B-12's but Twardo's [jumping into] a whole different ball game.


danhack

Jan 2, 2013, 8:46 AM
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Re: [onepeter315] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is a lot of hearsay and speculation. The facts from those involved are:

-2 way WS jump
-both jumpers landed in ocean
-the jumper that landed 1/2 mi out has over 300 jumps and wasn't jumping new gear. She also has a home DZ and is not an "event jumper".
-the second jumper landed 1/4 mi out but has less jump and WS experience.
-both jumpers were females so this was not a case of males inviting them to do something they weren't ready for

this. yes flotation was required and checked. both made it back with most of their gear. word was one or both got picked up by kayakers


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jan 2, 2013, 9:14 AM
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Re: [danhack] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I had someone that was on this load and exited prior to the wingsuiters pass info on that there were 3 wingsuiters in the plane and the freefall group had opened about a mile out to sea and flew back to the beach. The solo wingsuiter landed on the beach The ground winds were SSE at about 15-18 mph and the jump run was though to have been SSW. from the ground it looked like the jumper that had landed closer to shore was trying to crab against the wind to land to land near the designated landing area but had they flown straight to the shore they would potentially have made it to dry land but would have had a long walk back.


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Jan 2, 2013, 9:43 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not replying to anyone in particular, but sometimes mistakes just happen:

1. Winds might have picked up
2. Suggestion that there were 3 wingsuiters on the aircraft suggests 2 groups - the more experienced 2-way may have opted to take a less desirable flight pattern in order to maintain separation in freefall; this may have been misjudged - especially as it is also very likely that the 2-way were unaware of the other wingsuiter until boarding the aircraft (as often happens at boogies)
3. Judging distance and height over water is much more difficult than over land - ask any swooper. Finding oneself further away from shore than planned is very easy, and may have been an additional factor in my second point above.

I expect the parties concerned will just take this on the chin; I'm not sure much else will be gained by trying to analyse this unfortunate event further.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 10:33 AM
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Re: [Pendragon] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well here goes nothing! To stop all the speculation. Though many are concerned with the event that happened and everyone's trying to figure out what really happened! I was not even going to come on here and respond but I think it would be best that I do so. I am one of the female jumpers that landed half mile out. I am thankful for all the positive and of course the not so positive criticism that has been posted.
FACTS: four wingsuiters, two females landed in the water, one about a quarter of a mile and me about half mile. I won't comment on my friend she can do that if she chooses.
1) I am not an event jumper, I have a dz home. Majority of ally jumps are at my dz
2) I have 300 jumps total, 22 wingsuit jumps. Yes I am still learning but aren't we all
3) I have been jumping the same rig and canopy for a long time so it is not new.
4) I chose to make this jump, and I chose to make the wingsuit jump
5) I take full responsibility for my actions.
Was it easy to land in the ocean? Yes and it only takes a small amount of time to get out of the gear, wingsuit included. Did I use my water training taught by my dZo and mentor, every single bit of it. Did it work? Defiantly.
Wht did I take from all of this? I learned real quick that ou don't make excuses for what shoulda or coulda been which I have yet to do so! I learned that if you get a gut feeling you stick with it! I learned that I need to work more effectively on my wingsuit skills with one in one people.
To end the specs about female divers being cohearsed into making jumps they are not sure of. This is not a result in our situation. We were in fact amongst friends and friends I have known for over a year now. I do appreciate all the response to each and every individual who has made one on here and through out the community. I have kept up with the threads since the event happened and have taken with me. For every action, there is a reaction good or bad! So with that being said! We can move forward to bigger and better things and stop spreading rumors! I may not have 1000 jumps, I may not even have 100 wingsuit jumps! But what I still think I have are fellow skydivers who are supposed to be supportive in this sport! I feel that if you want to offer advice, give it straight and even be blunt with your opinions but make it count! Because when you try and crush on others, nobodies listening to your opinions! It goes n one ear and out the other! Yell at me, and beat the info into my head but do it with positive support! That's all for now


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 2, 2013, 11:29 AM
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the post. Cool Most, that have been around this sport for a while, know that "shit does happen". It takes a lot of courrage to come on here and tell your side. That being said, and in the interest of learning from your mistake, can you elaberate on the circumstances that led to the water landing? Exit order? Flight direction? Winds? etc. Smile


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 11:57 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks. I have no problem stating what I can remember. Before leaving the dz. I went to manifest to see what the winds were doing at the beach. I knew winds were roughly between 13-17 on the land. I asked manifest if they could give me a beach report. They stated they did not have one. I asked once again if they had access to Internet to see if they could find one. I looked on my phone and they tried to find on the computer. We could not find anything pertaining to the winds on the ground. I was told the winds were ssw and to land south. So my that's what I went with. Exit order we were last out. As we exited as a group, I looked around but seemed ok so kept tracking. I did take it out over the ocean a few seconds maybe 5-8secs, turned right back towards shore. I opened too early, between 45-5000. That was a bad decision. I should have tracked harder and opened at 25-3000. At least I would have gotten closer to shore line. No matter what I wasn't making it back and I knew this. As I opened, got my self situated, legs out of suit, arms free of course, loosened chest strap, unstowed, collapsed slider and pulled on rears best I could. At roughly about 2500, unzipped rest of suit, I did not completely loosen leg straps. Got ready for the landing. Picked legs up, stage flared the main, hit water sift enough that my head stayed above water. Looked back noticed main was filled with air pulling on me. So I chopped main. Let it go. Huge mistake, did not disconnect rsl! So much racing ny head. Looked back reserve was floating begind me, immediately got out of rig. Held on to my floatation with right hand and held into rig with left keeping the lines far away from me. Turned on my back and relaxed and floated until two other skydivers came after me and gear in kayaks. I accept full responsibilities for my actions and am pleasantly surprised out how quickly you can do ten things at once when under pressure like this. I must say this n my defense. I hope what happened with me and my friend will ensure that all dz's who offer beach jumping consider having an emergency response team available for incidents like this. Thankfully we skydivers do not hesitate to look out for one another in times of need. Believe me, I didn't come there saying, "woohoo, can't wait to land all my gear n salt water! But I must say that we had so many skydivers helping to clean and remove all sea water, sand and salt from our gear! I personally am in debt to those who not only helped get us out, carry our gear, clean our gear but also to all that offered any advice they could to ensure this never happen again. And for me, I am now able to pass that message along to others so they do not make this mistake. I hope that answers your questions.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 2, 2013, 12:34 PM
Post #47 of 122 (1211 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>>>>I opened too early, between 45-5000. That was a bad decision. I should have tracked harder and opened at 25-3000. At least I would have gotten closer to shore line. No matter what I wasn't making it back and I knew this.<<<<

Why do you feel you'll have a better glide ratio in a wingsuit vs under canopy?


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 12:50 PM
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Re: [DSE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking back at my situation, being on the ws a little longer and tracking a little faster would have gotten me closer. I think that even though I collapsed the slider, loosened up the chest pulled on the rears, I still had a lot of drag on me not to mention I turned straight to shore, left to shore, right to shore but still didn't feel much penetration. I I felt was winds pushing me sideways. I am under a 1.1 ratio as it is. Even getting the lift on that canopy still did not help! What I need to work is my tracking while on a wingsuit. Hell there r lot of things I need to work on. Like I said before, I am responsible for me.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2013, 2:21 PM
Post #49 of 122 (1090 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

>I opened too early, between 45-5000. That was a bad decision. I should have
>tracked harder and opened at 25-3000.

Be careful here. Unless the winds are really howling and you are flying into them, you are better off under a canopy than in a wingsuit if you are worried about making it back.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 2, 2013, 3:04 PM
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Looking back at my situation, being on the ws a little longer and tracking a little faster would have gotten me closer.

This is a very common misconception. A canopy will nearly always fly you further than a wingsuit. If you're flying INTO a strong wind/headwind, then *perhaps* you can get some better distance in the WS as compared to a canopy.
At your skill/experience level, that would be highly unlikely that you could have "tracked further/faster."

Since you're a newer WS'r, was navigation and spotting part of your FFC program? If so, what did you do differently than you were trained to do in your FFC?

[edit] what Billvon said.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 2, 2013, 3:04 PM)


The111  (D 29246)

Jan 2, 2013, 3:13 PM
Post #51 of 122 (1589 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I need to work is my tracking while on a wingsuit.

I think the real goal should be to not get into a situation where only better tracking in a wingsuit can save you. I probably have the ability to fly in from 5 miles over the ocean (with the right suit and conditions), but I'd never try. Planning, in many cases, is much more important than flight skills.

You mentioned that you flew out to sea for only 5-8 seconds before turning back. How far out were you when you exited?


parkair  (D 33246)

Jan 2, 2013, 3:47 PM
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Re: [The111] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

This website has a small weather station that gives accurate winds at the Inlet. It's about 2 miles south of the landing area.

http://www.sebastianinletcam.com/


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 6:28 PM
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Re: [parkair] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish I had known that. Also, I wonder why the dz didn't. And perhaps maybe they do and the person I asked just wasn't familiar with this site. It's neither here or there at this point! That was the red flag for me to pull off but I didn't. If I can't get the answers I need I should no have been on the jump. But I'm happy you shared that info with me for next time. Thank you


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 2, 2013, 7:16 PM
Post #54 of 122 (1430 views)
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Re: Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as wingsuit vs. canopy glide ratio, that a couple people mentioned, I can see that "generally" it is easy to get fooled into thinking the wingsuit is better, maybe because it gets you places faster.

But if you are talking about the type of situation in this thread, opening high and facing a strong headwind with a relatively lightly loaded canopy, you're going to have crap penetration. Hell, you might be coming straight down when fighting stronger upper winds. Flying the wingsuit, even a smaller one without having great skills, might well do better in glide ratio.

Then flying the wingsuit as long as possible as consistent with safety, is the right thing to do.





===========
You can skip the rest unless you want some numbers to give an example of the above:


In this case, maybe the wind was blowing directly out to sea. I don't know if that was the case, given the report of SSW wind, but let's say the winds were more from the west, assuming we're talking about a north-southish Florida shore.

Let's say the winds were 15 mph at the surface where one would be under canopy in any case, and just 20 mph up high -- that's a pretty conservative situation, not really much offshore wind at all for the uppers -- when typically it might be a lot more given those surface winds.

Or you could say that the 20 is the out to sea component of a stronger 28 mph wind angled 45 degrees to the shoreline. Same thing.

Using very inexact numbers, say a novice wingsuiter does a 1.5 glide ratio, 60 mph down, 90 mph horizontal. (Too good?? I dunno.)

Under a non-ground hungry bigger canopy, the jumper does a decent 2.5 glide ratio, 30 mph forward speed, thus 12 mph down.

(If you add brakes or rears, it probably isn't going to improve the over-ground glide ratio much if at all, when going into a moderate head wind. So we'll skip calculating that.)

But add the 20 mph headwind:
The wingsuit is now 60 down, 70 forward, just over 1:1 glide ratio.

The canopy is now 10 mph fwd, 12 mph down, or just under 1:1 glide ratio.

Of course all numbers can change. If the wingsuiter only achieves a 1:1 ratio in still air, they will be worse than the canopy into the wind. Or if the wind is 30 mph, the person under canopy is coming straight down.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 2, 2013, 8:08 PM
Post #55 of 122 (1404 views)
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Re: [danhack] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be interested to know what kind of rescue boat solution was planned for this jump or for similar beach jumps. It's great to have a regulation to carry floatation devices and to be water landing trained but that won't do a bit of good if you get carried out to sea.

Shit can and will happen, we all know that. It would be a shame if this had ended in tradegy if some ransom kayakers or fishing boats weren't close enough to see and provided rescue.

Personally I am pretty nervous around deep water. I am pretty sure I heard Skydive Dubai has a rescue boat and driver on hand during operating hours. Seems like something similar would be wise for any beach jump. If you have to have a load wear floatation devices there should be a plan to get them out of the water.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 2, 2013, 10:12 PM
Post #56 of 122 (1347 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

There is nothing planned at this Dz or not on this particular day. I said the same thing and so did many divers out there. I was in the water for over 30 minutes before an actual skydiver came out to me on some locals kayak. If it wasnt for her I would have been out a little longer. But, one of my friends also came out with a locals kayak so he ended up getting the canopy for me. But, I feel all Dz's who offer beach jumps should provide some type of emergecncy back up.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 3, 2013, 6:57 AM
Post #57 of 122 (1240 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is nothing planned at this Dz or not on this particular day. I said the same thing and so did many divers out there. I was in the water for over 30 minutes before an actual skydiver came out to me on some locals kayak. If it wasnt for her I would have been out a little longer. But, one of my friends also came out with a locals kayak so he ended up getting the canopy for me. But, I feel all Dz's who offer beach jumps should provide some type of emergecncy back up.

I think so also. Even if it means extra cost on the jump ticket. Just as a HA load includes O2 a beach load should include water rescue.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jan 3, 2013, 8:19 AM
Post #58 of 122 (1189 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Star,

Before "first" - VERY glad you kept your head, used your training and came out of this safe.

First, THANK YOU for coming here and posting. Much better to get information straight from the source than all the "well, _I_ have better rumors than your rumors".

Second (not that it should need to be said) Thanks for taking responsibility for your own choices. Sounds like you made a mistake (we all have) applied your training to keep it from getting worse, and are attempting to learn all you can from it.

Lastly, while I DO think discussion on a specific incident needs to focus on that situation, it will inevitably lead to discussions of similar situations and what others have seen, done, said, etc... Unfortunately that is the nature of people talkin'. For those things that were not applicable to your situation, let'em roll off. For example, I have seen female jumpers given encouragement to go along on stuff when a equal male jumper would not have been allowed. You say its not applicable here, and I take your word for it, but as a general discussion, that type of question is appropriate to ask. It helps us all watch out for issues in the future.

Stay safe, keep learning, and keep posting... it helps me learn through your experiences too.

Jim
Cool


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:16 AM
Post #59 of 122 (1146 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I have done 20 or so beach jumps there. If you can't find a safe place on 5000 miles or more of beach, you should not be jumping on the beach. Sure stuff goes wrong. I got turned around and couldn't find the LZ till i was to low to get there but I landed and walked to SBI. There is always a briefing with pictures. I have corrected the spot given by the pilot. I just do not see the point of a boat. YMMV


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:05 AM
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Re: [fcajump] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the great feedback. I have already seen through the threads how quickly one incident can be turned into something that it is not. As I said before, I know and understand my mistake and it really is no different then a group of free flyers coming together, making a jump together and a few of them landing off. Each one would take the blame for their own actions. I do not want this thread to be about anyone but me. I am the jumper in the water, I am the person who took the tickets and manifested, I am the one who got on the plane. I am glad that we can put this behind us and move forward to bigger and better things. I don't blame anyone but myself and am not ashamed to admit to this. Will I use more precautionary measures for now on, of course I will. So, I hope we wrap this thing up and move forward.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:49 AM
Post #61 of 122 (1065 views)
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Re: [bodypilot90] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sure stuff goes wrong.
.
.
.
I just do not see the point of a boat. YMMV

You answered your own question.
With experience comes knowledge.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:57 AM
Post #62 of 122 (1051 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you misunderstand the drifting of these threads.
One major purpose really is to learn what happened so we can avoid making the same mistakes.

Until we know exactly what happened, it's healthy to discuss what could have happened....hence what some simply blow off as "speculation". Indeed, that's what it is but it is a mistake to blow it off as meaningless or unneeded.

Even the misguided posts saying something like, "The jumper did XYZ" when, in fact, that is not really known, generate discussion that is most often helpful...particularly to the youngsters just starting out.

Some blow off "speculation". I embrace it as a learning opportunity.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 11:10 AM
Post #63 of 122 (1037 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

And maybe you are correct. Apparently it has been 7 years since last water landing from what I understand. So, maybe not. But, then again, the swimmer may not be a strong swimmer regardless of water training. So, it is just one of those things I suppose. It was great that locals offered up the kayaks though. It really helped all of us.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 11:23 AM
Post #64 of 122 (1019 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

With that being said then. I am truly glad I ended up coming on here then. You are correct in saying what you did. I am glad I was able to get all the speculation corrected. I don't feel anyone blew off the speculation and that is why I personally waited to see where all of it would go for sure. As I said before, positive and negative feedback are important key factors in the learning process for all of us young and older jumpers. I truly learned a lot from all sides of this story. Just glad I got to share the REAL story.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 3, 2013, 1:03 PM
Post #65 of 122 (933 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you please share exactly what you learned?
I still get the feeling you missed it.
All of it actually.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 2:25 PM
Post #66 of 122 (870 views)
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Re: [normiss] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

What part of any of my comments made you feel that I did not learn from this. I am just a tad confused with why you feel I have not learned from this.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 2:32 PM
Post #67 of 122 (857 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you tell us a bit about your WS progression / experience?

What suit (your own? Rental? Type?) were you wearing on this jump?

# of previous jumps on this WS (style size & type)?

Can you also tell us about your WS learning experience and venues? - Formalized structured FFS Course, or just access/learning from other available WS'rs/mentors?

In retrospect now - do you think it advisable to attempt a WS beach jump at your (both total jumps, and/or just WS-specific) experience level?

What should others who may be here now on the outside looking in on (and maybe even considering trying) - take away from this?

Glad everything worked out over all for you, and as others have said - that this did not turn out terribly worse, and so now too - so that all of us can (hopefully) have better actual opportunity to learn from it.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:06 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

My wingsuit progression has been slow since Sept when I took my course. I only have about 22 jumps on it. I have a phantom2 and it is the only suit I have ever jumped. It was customized for me. I leanred to ws at my own dz and took the ffc course there. I have only worked with small groups. I find myself always being behind the group mostly observing using the others as a point of reference mainly. I have not jumped my suit alone. I normally just jump with two or three people at a time. Most the jumpers I jump with all have over 250 and more ws jumps. I jump every weekend at my dz but i mix up my ws and my ff. So, I do not make all my jumps during one day just on my ws. I have only been to a few dz's since flying the suit, sebastian I had been to twice in a month timeframe. It was my first beach jump period and it was my first ws beach jump. To be honest with you, I can't really say that I feel a person should not make a ws beach jump at my experience level because every person is different in their learning abilities. Some excel faster than others. In general speaking terms, if every person was me, then I would say no ws beach jumps with only 22 under their belt. I am a strong skydiver but I will admit that I am by far a strong wingsuit jumper at this point. I would say to others with equal or less experience to really pay attention to their own skill levels, strongly evaluate their own skill levels with any discipline and even ask the more experienced skydivers in that same discipline who may know you well what they think about your skill level. I have a lot of things I need to re-evaluate. So, I have decided to stay clear of boogies for awhile, work on one discipline instead of mixing them up, working with those who are extremely experienced in that discipline and read as much as I can about my discipline. Get the facts, learn better navigational skills, perfect those skills. Does that all make sense? I am an open book here. Any great advice will be taken to heart. I am your sponge. I want to be safe, I want to learn as much as I can.


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Jan 3, 2013, 3:18 PM
Post #69 of 122 (802 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Over the years, I've known quite a few people who have made mistakes (myself included!), many of them with thousands more jumps than you...and a lot of them area dead. You are taking a lot of heat here, but it's not like you are the first skydiver to make a mistake. I give you a lot of credit for facing your critics and having a conversation with them. Most people won't come on here and do that! For that, I respect you.

Yes, you made a bad decision; but I be you won't do THAT again, huh? Wink


kharris815  (C 39242)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:35 PM
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well said my girl. I can assure everyone she LEARNED from this :) We all did..


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:54 PM
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Kat, for the added details, your candor, and the considered answers. I truly hope that us doing this is actually helping everybody.

In considering that you say you did take a formalized FFS course (I don't need you to identify which one ..trust me, that is NOT where I am going - so many people think everyone has got merely all these "ulterior motives" - I do not) - Would you mind please also answering what made you choose (or just "accept"/go on) your exit spot? Who (yourself, or someone more experienced?) was leading your group in flight? And lastly (at least for this round of Q's Wink) - Why during the jump, or - what was it apparently still even now - that made you think your wingsuit would have given you a better glide angle / longer (distance) flight than your open canopy?

Thank you (seriously) for "participating" in your "own" thread's discussion.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jan 3, 2013, 3:55 PM)


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:12 PM
Post #72 of 122 (711 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I made the call to exit the plane because the spot did not look bad to me. I looked around myself and it looked ok but again it was my first beach jump. I really don't think that we were out so far as to not be able to make it back safely. And the jumped really was not organized by any individual at all. Myself and my friend manifested us and we all together decided to keep the jump simple. But, the actual jump itself was not organized by one person. When I exited the plane, I seen the other two wingsuiters ahead of me so I flew for several seconds and then turned back. There was not a base.

Because I still feel comfortable opening at the 5 mark, I opened this time as well. When I adjusted myself and started flying my canopy, I just felt winds against me not pushing me towards the beach. I turned and angled myself left, right, straight, and I think because I opened at that altitude the winds could have very well been shifting verses what was below me or on the beach. In my opinion, I just feel that with the lack of wingsuit experience, it would have made more sense to me to continue flying the wingsuit as close as possible but still being able to open at a safe altitude. I have had mixed opinions about this by others. I really think that my best option would have been to stay on the ws a little longer. I made a jump on Thursday at the dz. I opened at 5. I was over the tree line to the west, I got no penetration at all, finally I got down to the 2500 mark, and I was moving like wild fire. So, that is what I am trying to explain is that maybe just maybe if I had opened a little lower, I would have made it back. I don't know. Being on a 7 cell 150 and being so lightly loaded not to mention the additional drag I had on me just by having a ws on didn't help matters. Do I feel at my level I would have made it back even if I had opened lower, no. With that being said, I seriously need to work on my navigational skills and this is my goal. I don't pretend to have all the answers. God knows I don't. But, I do know that I made a bad call and it could have cost me. Thankfully it did not. When you are in the middle of making jumps, and your so excited about the jumps, sometimes you just forget the small things. I think the biggest mistake I made was not asking enough people about what the winds were doing over there, what the winds aloft were, and understanding the importance of wingsuiting over the water, especially the ocean. I can honestly say, this will never ever happen ever again. I have 300 jumps, I have only had one off landing and I made that choice at 2500 feet. That was last year on dry land in a huge cleared field. I know I only have 22 ws jumps but this was my first off landing. And because of the magnitude of this off landing, I have learned a great deal and am thankful for it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:17 PM
Post #73 of 122 (704 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I truly learned a lot from all sides of this story. Just glad I got to share the REAL story.

And THAT, my young beauty, is the point of it all. I hope this learning gets rolled over into other aspects of your skydiving, too. Thanks again for sharing.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:28 PM
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Re: [skymama] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Skymama. OOOH YEAH, I have learned a great deal from everyone. I must say that I am impressed by all that have come on here and stated their opinions and gave advice. I would have never thought I would catch so much heat from so many people. But, I love it, I eat it, sleep it, and deserve it. My critics are the very ones who I will learn from the most. I really think that people come on here because they give a damn about me and others and it makes them mad to see a fellow skydiver make a mistake like this when it could have been prevented if only they had been able to work with me, or if I had been at their dz so that they could teach me. It's like my own DZ, everyone takes the younger jumpers under their belts and they mold them into fine pieces of art. That is exactly what is happening here and I welcome it all with open arms because BOTTOM LINE IS THAT I EFFED UP.. Some of my friends that do not skydive said to me, What is the big deal, you landed in the water. I turned them and said, "HUH, I am so sorry you don't get it but I am facing a TORNADO right now full of upset experienced skydivers who havent a clue as to who I am but are pissed off because it should not have happened in the first place. I told them that our community already gets enough heat as it is from our local counties, FAA, and other places, we don't need anymore heat. So, I let everyone scald me, mold me, pick my brain. I am very capable of handling every bit of it.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:31 PM
Post #75 of 122 (689 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks A. I appreciate all of it. Oh it will roll over in my everyday life, :)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:57 PM
Post #76 of 122 (1244 views)
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Re: [bodypilot90] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have done 20 or so beach jumps there. If you can't find a safe place on 5000 miles or more of beach, you should not be jumping on the beach. Sure stuff goes wrong. I got turned around and couldn't find the LZ till i was to low to get there but I landed and walked to SBI. There is always a briefing with pictures. I have corrected the spot given by the pilot. I just do not see the point of a boat. YMMV
Surviving the last jump is no guarantee of surving the next. We are only as good as our next jump.

What happens if you have a malfunction and don't have control until you are under a reserve lower than planned?

Maybe it is just because I am nervous of water but the what-ifs concern me.

Each to their own, your decision doesn't affect mine and If there isn't a boat and a plan I don't have to jump.


(This post was edited by WickedWingsuits on Jan 3, 2013, 6:20 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 3, 2013, 6:13 PM
Post #77 of 122 (1226 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why during the jump, or - what was it apparently still even now - that made you think your wingsuit would have given you a better glide angle / longer (distance) flight than your open canopy?

If the winds were blowing off shore, then if she thought she'd get a better glide angle with the wing suit (relative to the surface, of course), I'd agree with her.

What we don't know is exactly what caused the water landing. Was it just newer wing suit jumpers taking too long to turn back 180 after exit? Wonder what the 2nd last group, before the wingsuiters, thought about the sport. Sebastien must be doing some things right in general if it is true that water landings don't happen for years. (Leaving aside the rescue boat issue.)


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 3, 2013, 6:48 PM
Post #78 of 122 (1208 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep you are absolutely correct. I strongly agree with that too! We aren't playing soccer here. The what if's could have killed me. Rest assure there won't be anymore what if's ever. I think with the whole rescue situation. I have heard that there hasn't been a water landing in over 7 yrs or so. Only what I have heard. I am assuming that is why there was no course of action for such events. I just hope I didn't screw it up for beach jumpers period.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:31 PM
Post #79 of 122 (1164 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

My questions here have a two-fold purpose:
1. To verify for my own peace of mind that you are up-to-speed on EPs, and
2. As a discussion point for the youngsters.

Under canopy you got the part about the chest strap, you missed the RSL, you alluded to leg straps...
- Did you have a helmet? What type? What did you do with it and when?

- You had a floatation device. What type was it? Was it Coast Guard approved? How were you wearing it? When did you inflate it? Would you explain the part about holding it in your right hand while holding the gear in your left?



BTW...you are correct, in most cases by far and away that we're here discussing these types of things because of concern....both for the jumper and for the sport.

And yes, DZ.com can be extremely harsh...mostly when called for.


To all:
We are not your Nanny.
If you close your ears to advice because of the tone in which it was presented, you are doing yourself a great disservice.
Read the message, not the tone.



Thank you. This message has been brought to you by the letters E & P.
Smile


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 3, 2013, 9:31 PM)


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 4, 2013, 5:08 AM
Post #80 of 122 (1101 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not loosen the legs traps until I went in. I pulled the straps our of the legstrap padding itself but it was too difficult to loosen them n mid air so I waited until I landed then loosened them. Yes I have a helmet. I always wear helmet no matter what I am doing. It was an open face Rok helmet. I never took the helmet off until I got to shore. It's super light.
The flotation device was from the gear store at Sebastian. It was a manual not co2 cartridge style. I had it connected to my belt loop. So once I landed in I was already unzipped fully on wingsuit. In my particular situation, after hitting the water, I did not panic but assessed the situation, removed the main first got away from lines, got the flotation device from belt loop, blew it up for out of rig. I had the flotation device under my arm pit. Kinda laid over it. The rig and wingsuit I kept at an angle behind me to stay clear of reserve lines. It floated nicely but I knew there was a chance it could sink so if it had started to sink, I would have let it go. I never panicked not once. When you are in a situation like that, you don't have time to freak out! You have no choice, there is absolutely no if, and, buts about RELAXING AND SURVIVING AND WAITING!
Some people say get that flotation device blown up while under canopy. Well depends on if u have automatic or manual. I knew I had a manual, I knew my gear wasn't going to sink me to the bottom as soon as I hit the water and I had no time to blow it up while on the canopy which btw only took three blows. I remember that to a tee.
I want to elaborate on the legstraps for a moment. My harness is not articulated and I am not 100% sure if it even makes a difference loosening legstraps between the two. But my mind was wrapped around flying my canopy as quickly and hard as I could to get me closer. I did not wanna take a chance of loosening them and being uneven ny harness then having to shift myself around when I had much bigger issues to deal with. The last thing I needed was concerning myself with, "if I loosen legs will I have to worry about steering with legs, if I loosen legs will one be more loose than the other or will I be even." Nooh, Nooh, I had no time to worry about legs, everything else was loose and ready. I was completely ready to land at 4,000 feet. I had everything ready. So into particular situation I feel I had everything under control. I think I said, eweee, that water sure is going to be cold! To my surprise it wasn't or at least my adrenaline was telling me that.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jan 4, 2013, 5:55 AM
Post #81 of 122 (1094 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Because I still feel comfortable opening at the 5 mark, I opened this time as well. When I adjusted myself and started flying my canopy, I just felt winds against me not pushing me towards the beach.

In reply to:
No matter what I wasn't making it back and I knew this. As I opened, got my self situated, legs out of suit, arms free of course, loosened chest strap, unstowed, collapsed slider and pulled on rears best I could. .


Hanging on the rears is not going to help you penetrate into a headwind...


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 4, 2013, 6:58 AM
Post #82 of 122 (1061 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Being calm and relaxed when you get in the water is a key to survival.

I wonder, if you are not quite going to make it and are heading for the surf, maybe it makes sense to land further out when the water is calmer on then surface. I can see a lot of panic being created in the surf. Plus you have reefs to deal with. It's counter intuitive to land further out but it might be safer.

Just thinking out loud.


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 7:29 AM
Post #83 of 122 (1037 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Simon, good question. The surf should be considered almost like a line of trees. If you are not positive you can make it over them, land short in the calmer water outside the surf line. When the Synchronized Skydiver Swim team landed in the water in Nicaragua, one jumper landed in the surf and swallowed a lot of water. All the rest that landed in the smoother water got rescued by the rescue boat and local fisherman. A few were out there for a good bit. Other than some water damaged gear, they were fine. The jumper that landed in the surf got tumbled pretty good. There is also the possibility of getting entangled in your lines.

When in doubt, take the out.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jan 4, 2013, 8:31 AM
Post #84 of 122 (989 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's good thinking out loud though. I think landing in surf would be just about the worst kind of water landing I can imagine. Even in fast running water you pretty much know which way everything's going to be going and other than rapids there's a degree at least of predictability. Surf's a whole different ball game.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 8:47 AM
Post #85 of 122 (978 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hanging on the rears is not going to help you penetrate into a headwind...

No, but if you are making any headway into the wind, using a touch of rears to flatten the glide will make you go further.

A "touch" might only be 1-3 inches to plane out the glide path.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 4, 2013, 8:53 AM
Post #86 of 122 (973 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

>No, but if you are making any headway into the wind, using a touch of rears to flatten
>the glide will make you go further.

Not in strong winds it won't. It will slow your forward speed and result in you stopping or backing up. Your best bet if you are making any headway at all is to stay at full glide, clean up as much as possible and hope the winds drop as you descend.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:16 AM
Post #87 of 122 (953 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Lots of good points in this thread, so I'm only going to add the one thing that I did not see posted so that everyone has it fresh in their minds. I have always taught my students (ALL of my students: AFF/SL/Military/WS) to understand what is considered "high winds" and how the RSL comes into play in those situations; never mind the fact that there was also water involved in this "incident":

-winds above 12 mph are generally considered "high", particularly when they are gusting above 14 mph. If winds get above that while a load is up we generally pass the info up from the ground to the plane, assuming the pilot has not already done so because he/she saw it on their GPS ground track in the plane.

-In "high winds" I always brief my students to disconnect their RSL's prior to entering the downwind portion of their landing pattern. Many places tell their students to do so as soon as they know they have a cleanly-flying canopy over their heads. A perfect example of this can be found at MANY, MANY busy dropzones that jump in generally-quite-high winds where the tandem instructors ALL disconnect their RSL's as soon as their canopies are open (Eloy is a perfect example).

- I've never been to a dropzone that did not teach disconnecting the RSL if there was a chance of a water landing. It's actually one of the most important things to do in case of a water landing other than undoing your chest strap completely.


Ultimately, it's up to you, the jumper, to rehearse these procedures over and over prior to jumping. I go through my EP's and post-opening procedures in my head several times in the plane prior to exiting so that I don't forget a step. That's easy to do when you are constantly going back and forth between tandem, sport, wingsuit, and military gear.

Glad you made it out safe! Definitely a learning experience.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, MMPCI, PFC/E, PRO, S&TA


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:38 AM
Post #88 of 122 (937 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

To answer that from my point of view. Let me just say that while I was being pulled in on the kayak. I was still in the water hanging on. Once we got closer to the shore but still unable to touch bottom, the waives were horrific. A huge waive came over the top of us and actually caused the other skydiver on the kayak to be thrown off and the kayak went flying up in the air. I was able to retrieve it quickly both her and I flipped it back over and that is when a local man who owned the kayak started swimming to us. So, I would say it was safer landing further out than closer to the shore line.


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:45 AM
Post #89 of 122 (928 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks. To be honest with you, I did not think about the RSL until I cut away the main. As soon as i cut away, I said, "AWE SH..." I always check my gear on the ground several times, going to the plane, several times on the plane, and right before I leave the plane. However, I just wasn't thinking hard enough about the RSL until I had already pulled my cut away. I guess with everything going on at one time, I overlooked this. I am a wind wuss and all my friends know it. So, I never normally jump in winds over 20 and if the winds are gusting even at 15, I will not jump. Lesson learned for sure. I do know that the biggest lesson I learned here and I have learned a lot is that under no circumstances will I ever ever make a load when I haven't recieved a clear response about the winds. It was my responsiblity to find out 100% and even though I asked several times, I never got a straight answer, THAT IS STILL MY FAULT.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 10:43 AM
Post #90 of 122 (889 views)
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Re: [billvon] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>No, but if you are making any headway into the wind, using a touch of rears to flatten
>the glide will make you go further.

Not in strong winds it won't. It will slow your forward speed and result in you stopping or backing up. .

In that case you are using too much rears (a very common occurrence).

A small amount of rears will flatten the glide without decreasing airspeed appreciably according to data I have seen presented in canopy courses.

ETA: Obviously if you're not making any headway, rears are not going to help! Good point about cleaning up parasitic drag, though.


(This post was edited by DocPop on Jan 4, 2013, 10:44 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 11:49 AM
Post #91 of 122 (851 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did not loosen the legs traps until I went in.
You may have noticed above that loosening legstraps under canopy may not be a good idea...especially so for younger jumpers. So, you're good there.

In reply to:
Yes I have a helmet. I always wear helmet no matter what I am doing. It was an open face Rok helmet. I never took the helmet off until I got to shore. It's super light.

Just wondering because there has been discussion, and arguments on when to remove the helmet...and yes, it may depend on what type of helmet you have.

In reply to:
The flotation device was from the gear store at Sebastian. It was a manual not co2 cartridge style. I had it connected to my belt loop.
Rats. One of the worst possible choices for floatation devices. The best choice is an inflatable vest type with both CO2 and manual options. Evidently you didn't know if it was CC approved?

In reply to:
Some people say get that flotation device blown up while under canopy. Well depends on if u have automatic or manual.
No, that is incorrect.
I have no clue who would tell you to wait until you were in the water to inflate your float. IMO, that just crazy.
In your case (you said you were prepared to land at 4K) you had plenty of time to blow it up particularly if it only took the 3 blows you indicated.

In the future, inflate it before you land.

And...another word about that...

SIM says
1. Inflate the float*
2. Disconnect chest strap
3. Disconnect RSL

I personally don't agree with that particular order but there you have it.

*AFTER you disconnect the chest strap, particularly if you have the vest-type....which is why I disagree with the order presented by the SIM.

In reply to:
I was completely ready to land at 4,000 feet.

Plenty of time to do ALL the housekeeping.



Questions for you and all other young jumpers:

1. Why do we disconnect the RSL?
2. Is that necessary if you land in a pond? Why/why not?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 4, 2013, 11:51 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 12:07 PM
Post #92 of 122 (831 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy - Not so sure I agree in this case in particular with regards to the flotation device advice. "Normally", yes - inflate it first. However, in this case, it sounds like she had to completely detach it from herself, to blow it up. If that is so (I'd reconsider this as a useful/effective device) the risk of her dropping it / losing it altogether during canopy flight would not be good.


strop45  (D 957)

Jan 4, 2013, 12:40 PM
Post #93 of 122 (809 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

One other thing to note here is that it is difficult to judge distance over the sea. Above land there are all sorts of things which help you judge altitude, distance, ground speed etc..

I've seen very experienced skydivers end up in the water on beach jumps because they misjudged the wind speed and ground/sea speed and landed short.

One key message here is that its best not to put yourself too much seaward. In a wind suit arrange your pattern to put over the land if possible. Without a windsuit be very aware of the spot and try not to end up too much seaward.

stay safe


stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 4, 2013, 12:44 PM
Post #94 of 122 (809 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well there are different reasons to disconnect an RSL. My situation I should have disconnect under canopy as to not allow my reserve to come out because I knew I would be chopping the main immediately upon impacting the water. Also, when we are in strong wind conditions on the ground, say we land but winds are acting goofy, we would want to disconnect because we may have to pull the cut away handle while on the ground, we dont want the reserve to come out, if we know we will be landing on a building, we would want to disconnect it as well. And I have read that even crew disconnect the rsl in case of entanglement. If you had two canopies in the air, you would disconnect the rsl if you decided to cut away the main. Tree landings and power lines too. If I landed in a pond, I would still disconnect the rsl because we learn in water training that you disconnect your rsl before landing any body of water.


flyingmontana  (D 31509)

Jan 4, 2013, 2:15 PM
Post #95 of 122 (754 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

"When the Synchronized Skydiver Swim team landed in the water in Nicaragua, one jumper landed in the surf and swallowed a lot of water. All the rest that landed in the smoother water got rescued by the rescue boat and local fisherman. A few were out there for a good bit. Other than some water damaged gear, they were fine."

As the Nicaragua Swim Team jumper who landed farthest out, I don't quite agree with you, and think you have left out important elements here, particularly the fact that the one who landed in the surf and swallowed a lot of water DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO SWIM! As we jumped before dawn and rescue boats weren't even out at the time, we were really in big trouble out there (I was about a mile out) and SO lucky the one fishing boat happened to see me and find me. If it had taken them any longer to get to me I was very close to drowning, with booties dragging me down, rig soaked and sinking, and no flotation gear. And obviously, the clearest lesson for all of us was that we should have had flotation gear (no one on the load did, except one wingsuiter). It still amazes me that someone who couldn't swim was doing a beach landing with no flotation gear. I'm glad the Sebastian jumper is OK!


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 4, 2013, 2:50 PM
Post #96 of 122 (726 views)
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Re: [flyingmontana] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a common instruction to land farther, rather than closer to shorelines.
As a person who regularly produces events in Hawaii, this is one of the first aspects of the briefing:" Do not land close to the shore."
Between the waves and currents closer in, it is a significantly higher risk.

I've intentionally been in waves, stream/currents, and calm waters; waves are scary. Currents are scarier. Mix them, and it's a very sketchy situation.


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Jan 4, 2013, 5:05 PM
Post #97 of 122 (675 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

ok it it always more windy at the beach than at Sebastian dz. More open space, And your wind loading is under 1 to 1 in winds 15-20 mph, with a 7 cell. I am glad you are ok.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 4, 2013, 5:25 PM
Post #98 of 122 (665 views)
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Re: [flyingmontana] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"When the Synchronized Skydiver Swim team landed in the water in Nicaragua, one jumper landed in the surf and swallowed a lot of water. All the rest that landed in the smoother water got rescued by the rescue boat and local fisherman. A few were out there for a good bit. Other than some water damaged gear, they were fine."

As the Nicaragua Swim Team jumper who landed farthest out, I don't quite agree with you, and think you have left out important elements here, particularly the fact that the one who landed in the surf and swallowed a lot of water DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO SWIM! As we jumped before dawn and rescue boats weren't even out at the time, we were really in big trouble out there (I was about a mile out) and SO lucky the one fishing boat happened to see me and find me. If it had taken them any longer to get to me I was very close to drowning, with booties dragging me down, rig soaked and sinking, and no flotation gear. And obviously, the clearest lesson for all of us was that we should have had flotation gear (no one on the load did, except one wingsuiter). It still amazes me that someone who couldn't swim was doing a beach landing with no flotation gear. I'm glad the Sebastian jumper is OK!

Thats another good point. Might seem obvious but if there is a boat out there...even if it is behind you...aim for it! Well, not so much you hit it but that you land near it. You can give them a demo while you are at it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 7:51 PM
Post #99 of 122 (614 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Andy - Not so sure I agree in this case in particular with regards to the flotation device advice. "Normally", yes - inflate it first. However, in this case, it sounds like she had to completely detach it from herself, to blow it up. If that is so (I'd reconsider this as a useful/effective device) the risk of her dropping it / losing it altogether during canopy flight would not be good.

If you are flying with a floatation device that is not securely attached to you for freefall, you are making a big mistake...just for the reason you mentioned if nothing else.

It sounds as though she was using an Air Force type (LPU) underarm flotation device in which case it may not be advisable to inflate it under canopy. Not the best choice by far and away, though.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 7:58 PM
Post #100 of 122 (608 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... If I landed in a pond, I would still disconnect the rsl because we learn in water training that you disconnect your rsl before landing any body of water.

YAAAAAAYYYYY! Kudos to whoever taught you that.

In reality, it probably wouldn't be necessary at all in a pond BUT.....BUUUUUUTTTTTT...do it anyway.

I tell my students to ALWAYS make the RSL disconnect under canopy part of the under-canopy procedures. If you land in a situation that would warrant it, you will not have forgotten to do it.

All you said is true. Good stuff for you even though I was only asking about water-related stuff.






stardazzles1  (C 40453)

Jan 5, 2013, 5:25 AM
Post #103 of 122 (2315 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry Andy. I just wanted you to know that I did recieve adequate water training and we spoke of many reasons to sisconnect the rsl even though some reasons did not pertain to water training. I suppose when you are in a course or some type of training seminar a person may ask the instructor many questions about something even though it has noting to do with that particular meeting. I have asked my DZo to offer wingsuit water training. We have a lot of ws fliers at my dz and the numbers continue to grow it seems. So I think it is a great idea and I hope that I am able to be apart of it so that I can talk about my own experience n open water to those who think its not a big deal. For some people especially young newbies, we don't truly realize the consequences of these types of situations until we find ourselves saying, Oh Sh.., oh Sh..., oh Sh..!! I never want to be put in a situation like this again and I never want to see my fellow skydiver go thru this either. I have so much to learn myself but I will go above and beyond to make all the right choices and decisions and I will make sure I offer the same knowledge I have recieved throughout these threads to others. I can't imagine a person who cannot swim going thru what I went thru. Putting myself in another persons shoes, what a dumbass I was...


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jan 5, 2013, 6:42 AM
Post #104 of 122 (2283 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see the argument for/against the CO2 types, personally I perfer not having it due to the reprocussions of an inadvertant firing in the plane/freefall.

Yes, it should be secure on your person, but that doesn't mean it is in the intended usable location... I've got an inflatable vest, but its stored in a belly pack. getting that out and over my head while flying a canopy would be a distraction, not to mention the possibility of putting it on over the chest strap, effectively tying you to your rig.

BUT some serious take-aways:
#0 - attitude is (almost) everything... keep your head!!
#1 - you can't use it if you don't have it.
#2 - do NOT inflate with CO2 if it is under your harness... this can KILL.
#3 - if you're routinely flying around water... get training. (yea, its in the USPA regs, but not everyone is under them)
#4 - learn to swim if your regularly around water

thanks STAR for your story (and living to share it with us... that was nice too WinkWink )

JW


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 5, 2013, 6:43 AM
Post #105 of 122 (2282 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

SDC (Chicago) added WS water traning to the B Water a training over the last 2 years. With more and more people Wingsuiting it doesn't hurt to hear about it early. Obviously it was also available to others.

There is a river near SDC so it is quite possible someone could land in it while trying to cross it.

For the demos I got a lot of practice getting out of a Wingsuit in the water and was nicely surprised to find it a lot easier than I expected it to be.

I would encourage other to get wet in their Wingsuit....just under controlled conditions.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 5, 2013, 8:04 AM
Post #106 of 122 (2257 views)
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Re: [stardazzles1] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have asked my DZo to offer wingsuit water training.


Why wait for the DZO to do it? Why not the wingsuiters organize it? There's a boogie in March that has a great building to meet in and a pond if needed. I'm offering both.

If it is to be it's up to me/you. Laugh


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 5, 2013, 8:05 AM
Post #107 of 122 (2255 views)
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Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

When I did my WS jump into the Blue Hole in Belize, I wore the belt style vest. I did not have the vest around my neck, but still rolled up at my waist. I opened my chest strap under canopy and could easily get the vest unrolled and up around my neck if needed. I did not want to have the vest trapped under the yoke of the container if I needed to inflate it. I did not need to inflate the vest as I was the last canopy down and able to land very close to the boat.

The big lesson here is plan ahead on your EPs so you will be ready when the need arises.

I agree with the other posters, Star, thanks for stepping up and giving version of the events. This has been a good conversation to get people thinking on how to be safer.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 5, 2013, 6:39 PM
Post #108 of 122 (2142 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can see the argument for/against the CO2 types, personally I perfer not having it due to the reprocussions of an inadvertant firing in the plane/freefall.
In reply to:
Yea, there is that.


In reply to:
I've got an inflatable vest, but its stored in a belly pack. getting that out and over my head while flying a canopy would be a distraction, not to mention the possibility of putting it on over the chest strap, effectively tying you to your rig.
Instead of "distraction" I see it more as 'life-saving' in that the more I can do under canopy, the less I have to do in the water whilst trying to prevent drowning. Under canopy is quiet, peaceful time, in the water is not.

And, is disconnecting your chest strap part of your procedures?


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jan 5, 2013, 6:45 PM
Post #109 of 122 (2134 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And, is disconnecting your chest strap part of your procedures?

Yes, as is disconnecting the RSL, but as we've just heard... its easy to forget things when under pressure. I'd rather swim free (including the option to dive down and under to get away from a main before unstowing and inflating the preserver stowed at my waist.

Not saying mine is the best option, just my arm-chair thoughts...

JW


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 6, 2013, 7:48 AM
Post #110 of 122 (2036 views)
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Re: [michalm21] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...and people wonder why ALL my rigs have B-12's

To disconnect when you land in water in a middle of the ocean? What's those odds 1:100000000?
Pretty silly (in kind words) it that's your major reason.

Actually I do demos all over the country, many near large bodies of water...so the odds in fact are a bit better than that.






alphamedak  (D 31708)

Jan 9, 2013, 11:55 AM
Post #113 of 122 (1663 views)
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Re: [rbignon] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

So here is what I got. I was on the this load and I swam out to assist the woman that landed closest to shore. I only remember 3 wingsuiters, two woman and one man. I belive the man was the most experienced and that he was dating one of the women.

1. One woman landed approx. 1/2 mile out and the other landed about 1/4 to 1/2 mile past her (it was hard to tell from the water). Four of us managed to reach the closest wingsuiter and a person on a kayak reached the farther winsuiter.

2. The man in the group opened as far out as the women and he made it back to the beach.

3. The windsuiter that I helped was out of her wingsuit when we arrived.

4. She did not have her floataion device activated when we got there.

5. We dragged her gear back to shore and I cut away her main canopy in order to pull it up on the beach separatley. Her RSL WAS NOT disconnected, I had to do it before chopping her main on the beach.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:42 AM
Post #114 of 122 (1443 views)
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Re: [alphamedak] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

*sigh*

EPs folks. EPs, please.

What? It was OK this time so you think it will be OK next time?


mik  (D 11111)

Jan 10, 2013, 11:03 AM
Post #115 of 122 (1377 views)
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Re: [alphamedak] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyI only remember 3 wingsuiters, two woman and one man. I belive the man was the most experienced and that he was dating one of the women.

From an earlier post in this thread
Given that I am in 'wild speculation' mode on all of this, I'll add that a 'newer, smaller, female' sounds like a prime target for an undue amount of attention from the 'older, larger, male' jumpers, who might end up telling her whatever she wants to hear for one reason 'or another'. She may have gotten some advice or encouraged to do things that a less attractive new jumper might not have.

Hmm.... spot the correlation




Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jan 10, 2013, 9:48 PM
Post #117 of 122 (1175 views)
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Re: [mik] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[replyI only remember 3 wingsuiters, two woman and one man. I belive the man was the most experienced and that he was dating one of the women.

From an earlier post in this thread
Given that I am in 'wild speculation' mode on all of this, I'll add that a 'newer, smaller, female' sounds like a prime target for an undue amount of attention from the 'older, larger, male' jumpers, who might end up telling her whatever she wants to hear for one reason 'or another'. She may have gotten some advice or encouraged to do things that a less attractive new jumper might not have.

Hmm.... spot the correlation
Or maybe she just fucked up.

.


billeisele  (A 5643)

Jan 11, 2013, 3:34 AM
Post #118 of 122 (1117 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
*sigh*

EPs folks. EPs, please.

What? It was OK this time so you think it will be OK next time?

POPS - you've been around long enough to know that someone has to actually die, and it's even more effective if they're all mangled up and the pictures get posted, before some of the crowd thinks twice, then there are the few that regardless of all facts believe it can't happen to them, and those are the ones that provide us with the next example


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 11, 2013, 9:58 AM
Post #119 of 122 (996 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
*sigh*

EPs folks. EPs, please.

What? It was OK this time so you think it will be OK next time?

It's not about time, Andy, it's about altitude Wink


(This post was edited by DocPop on Jan 11, 2013, 9:59 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 12, 2013, 12:24 AM
Post #120 of 122 (872 views)
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Re: [billeisele, DocPop ] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Amazing isn't it?...Unfortunately.
I have just never understood that mindset.

Doc...Right now my altitude is pretty low thinking about the way things are as Bill mentioned above. I'll let you get away with it this time.
Tongue backatchya Wink


alphamedak  (D 31708)

Jan 15, 2013, 12:46 PM
Post #121 of 122 (596 views)
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Re: [mik] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I was contacted by the male wingsuiter and assured that there were actually 4 wingsuiters on that load and that he wasn't dating the female wingsuiter that I assisted out of the water. In speaking with others on that load, they all only seem to remember 3 wingsuiters as well, but that, I guess, is neither here nor there. Same with the dating speculation, as both of those comments were not labeled as fact. My numbered items were as I saw them and, as far as I know, accurate.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:04 PM
Post #122 of 122 (501 views)
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Re: [alphamedak] Water landing? - Sebastian FL - 28 December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

If no one is missing none of that matters.



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