Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Check-in debate

 

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Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:42 PM
Post #26 of 84 (2324 views)
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Re: [hillson] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, for the most part people do look out for each other. Its not those times that are an issue.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2012, 1:44 PM
Post #27 of 84 (2320 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

>So the dzo or dz doesn't care about you enough to notify someone that you are missing

Do you care enough about your friends to notify someone that they are missing? If so implement a check-in system yourself. Problem solved.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:50 PM
Post #28 of 84 (2309 views)
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Re: [billvon] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure, but i can't babysit 20 other people on a load.


antibac  (C License)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #29 of 84 (2303 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the way we do it at our DZ.

We have one person who is not jumping that day, who count canopies and make sure everyone lands safely.

On big events, where we have more than one plane, jumpers have to check out when going to the plane and check in when they've landed.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2012, 3:24 PM
Post #30 of 84 (2263 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

>Sure, but i can't babysit 20 other people on a load.

And a DZO can't babysit 400.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Dec 20, 2012, 3:37 PM
Post #31 of 84 (2260 views)
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Re: [hillson] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Extraordinary skydives the system is used of course.

Yep, I'm with you on that. Bigways where the ground crew couldn't possibly keep track of a massive number of jumpers? Of course. Another good example is the sunset cross-country that's done the final Saturday of the Lost Prairie boogie. There's 40-60 people doing a jump into the gathering darkness over a remote area and starting a fair ways up the valley, so it would be quite tough for a ground crew to keep an eye on everyone. You land out in Western Montana at night you'll be in for a long, miserably cold night if you can't find your way back, so it's critical to make sure everyone gets back safely so that we can get to looking for people as quickly as possible. No one really complains about the mandatory post-jump check-in for that jump.


Krip  (Student)

Dec 20, 2012, 3:42 PM
Post #32 of 84 (2257 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I believe there was one at Perris and the jumper involved was russian? They noticed a car left in the lot after a while and the body was found weeks or more later.

Oh yeah, forgot about that one.

The russian at perris?

How soon we forget. Cars left at the DZ could mean a lot of thingsWink

It wasn't until his travel buddies that he was supposeed to meet at another DZ (maybe eloy) called Perris and then the folks at perris checked the car and found the jumpers passport etc.

The russian did have a backup to bad they weren't at the same DZ.

Why try and reinvent the wheel every time there's the samePirate we should already know what to do to protect ourselve's.

Isn't that what the incident reports are for?Shocked

I hear lots of people saying the DZ is to busy , How many of you are not employed in the industry (CYA) or jump with a cliqueSly


Krip  (Student)

Dec 20, 2012, 3:43 PM
Post #33 of 84 (2257 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I believe there was one at Perris and the jumper involved was russian? They noticed a car left in the lot after a while and the body was found weeks or more later.

Oh yeah, forgot about that one.


nigel99  (D 1)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #34 of 84 (2236 views)
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Re: [billvon] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>So the dzo or dz doesn't care about you enough to notify someone that you are missing

Do you care enough about your friends to notify someone that they are missing? If so implement a check-in system yourself. Problem solved.

Most incidents involve visiting or solo jumpers. Not everyone has friends at the dz, and who is to say that the person you ask to watch your back actually does so?

Honestly, with the current industry attitude I can see someone with a broken leg dying in the field over the course of a few days.

I don't see it as a nanny state issue, rather a DZ completing the delivery of its service. Generally speaking implementing a process and systemic method of improvement works better than an ad-hoc system. Of course I realise that the US culture is to resist any form of process improvement, in the mistaken belief that "all rules violate my freedoms"Tongue


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Dec 20, 2012, 5:30 PM
Post #35 of 84 (2223 views)
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Re: [billvon] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

sure they can, but you old fuckers are all too stubborn to accept anything new. God forbid you have to check in or do something that inconveniences you. Hope you think about this if you ever find yourself in a field for a few days.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2012, 9:46 PM
Post #36 of 84 (2185 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

>sure they can, but you old fuckers are all too stubborn to accept anything new.

?? Hmm. I guess you don't know me very well, then.

>God forbid you have to check in or do something that inconveniences you.

And God forbid you actually DO the check-in for other people instead of just complaining on an Internet site about it. Is that the way of young hip modern skydivers? Post about your problems instead of solving them?


JackC1

Dec 21, 2012, 2:45 AM
Post #37 of 84 (2152 views)
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Re: [billvon] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

It beats me what the problem is. Checking in isn't difficult, it doesn't require very much effort from anyone and it's a relatively robust and structured way for skydivers to look after themselves. It might even save a life or two and stop the FAA from asking why DZs don't give a crap about leaving dead skydivers around the place for some random dog walker to find. On the other hand the entire argument against check ins seems to boil down to "fuck you, that's why".


dreaming13000  (B 35508)

Dec 21, 2012, 4:57 AM
Post #38 of 84 (2129 views)
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Re: [Mac] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

While a check in system is a nice idea, it's not really practical in the scenarios that have been mentioned in this thread. I've been a traveling jumper to quite a few dz's across the country, both big and small. I make friends on the ground before I go up. My family knows where I am... I make sure ppl notice me and therefore will notice if I'm missing. I've done solo hiking and camping trips, same thing, loved ones know where I am, and my intended schedule, if I encounter ppl I chat it up, not just thinking about myself but it's wise to have a plan and to let others know your plan...

In every scenario with the missing jumpers there has been a behavior pattern that led up to their absence not being noticed ie anti social behavior, routine disappearing acts etc.
Not to mention a few have been apparent suicides.

Sure the dz should care, and most humans do, but come on there is personal responsibility as well. If you want ppl to notice your absence, give them a reason to.

Ever watch 127hours, great movie and just confirms the wisdom in letting others know you. Shoot my mom flips out if I don't call her back in an hour, and she'll call the dz checking on me if necessary! :)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Dec 21, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #39 of 84 (2114 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty much Jack, they're just stubborn to any change or control. I wonder how they're going to feel when the FAA or government takes over skydiving?


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Dec 21, 2012, 6:16 AM
Post #40 of 84 (2104 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wonder how they're going to feel when the FAA or government takes over skydiving?

We will probably remain 'under their radar' as long as we are only killing ourselves and not the general public.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Dec 21, 2012, 6:49 AM
Post #41 of 84 (2093 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I know two things:

1. I swore this could never happen until it happened at my home DZ.
2. The FAA has already started to get more involved with the recent landing area proposal and increased aircraft ramp checks (locally in CA anyway). There is more coming if we don't wake up.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Dec 21, 2012, 7:09 AM
Post #42 of 84 (2083 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is more coming if we don't wake up.

To date, the FAA involvement in skydiving has fortunately been at a glacial pace.

A single demo gone wrong where a spectator holding a baby gets killed by a skydiver would change that.

Most of the general public feels skydivers have a death wish anyway. I don't think they genuinely care if a dead body is left in a cornfield for a week


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Dec 21, 2012, 8:20 AM
Post #43 of 84 (2064 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

I genuinely don't get the issue. Every DZ in the UK has system of some form, be it DZ control, a computer touch screen or just crossing your name off the list etc. While none are exactly SDC, Arizona or Perris, a busy day at one of the bigger DZ's can see a couple of thousand jumps done. It works. It's not that hard. It's not expensive. It doesn't hold up operations, you've just got to tweak the way things work.

These people are supposed to be our friends ffs and the attitude against such a system basically boils down to "fuck em, not my problem". Nice.


ghost47  (D License)

Dec 21, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #44 of 84 (2056 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It beats me what the problem is. Checking in isn't difficult, it doesn't require very much effort from anyone and it's a relatively robust and structured way for skydivers to look after themselves. It might even save a life or two and stop the FAA from asking why DZs don't give a crap about leaving dead skydivers around the place for some random dog walker to find. On the other hand the entire argument against check ins seems to boil down to "fuck you, that's why".
This is a genuine question:

If, in the middle of the day, some jumper who is new to the DZ doesn't check in, what happens?


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Dec 21, 2012, 8:41 AM
Post #45 of 84 (2056 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I genuinely don't get the issue. Every DZ in the UK has system of some form, be it DZ control, a computer touch screen or just crossing your name off the list etc. While none are exactly SDC, Arizona or Perris, a busy day at one of the bigger DZ's can see a couple of thousand jumps done. It works. It's not that hard. It's not expensive. It doesn't hold up operations, you've just got to tweak the way things work.

These people are supposed to be our friends ffs and the attitude against such a system basically boils down to "fuck em, not my problem". Nice.


No! That's not what it boils down to at all. Look, I've been around this sport for several decades, and we've been doing (informal) check-ins since the 70's (probably longer). It's called "looking out for each other". Maybe we need to rethink the process and make MINOR changes, as the sport changes? But we do not need to put a bunch of rediculous regulations and meaningless rules into effect.

Usually, groups debrief each skydive. If someones missing, where are they????? Most jumpers getting out on their own are being supervised by an I and they are thus checked in. Other individual jumpers can be the focus of the manifestor. Yes!!! It's just that simple! Shocked

Let's look at the holes in the system and come up with simple, easy to implement soulutions. That is all!Wink


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Dec 21, 2012, 9:06 AM
Post #46 of 84 (2045 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Why rules and regulations? If it's just looking out for each other - look out for each other. Write everyone's name on a manifest list (this already happens, no?) and when each jumper comes in, they (or someone else) cross their name off the list. Or come up with some other solution.

I don't understand the aversion to having a 'system' in place. No one said there needs to be nationwide rules or regulations - just that it would make real good sense if DZ's did this (perhaps before the govt stepped in and made them after the next person's found in a field after 3 days having crawled 50ft from their rig).

I just don't get the whole, "we" look out for each other thing where the "we" can't possibly involve anyone from the DZ. I know my DZO, his name is Jason, he's cool. I know my CCI (S&TA in the US), his name is Gary, he's a crazy South African. They know me; they want to look out for me. Thing is though, they don't know the FNG who shows up un-announced on a busy Saturday morning but ffs, we're all skydivers, they want to look out for him too.

The fact that they are the DZO and CCI shouldn't preclude them from being part of the solution to finding some poor schmuck who femured into the field across the road.

Besides, it makes for bad publicity, which hurts their income.

DZ's go to the trouble of banning hook turns in some cases... but apparently can't be bothered to see if everyone made it back to the DZ in the first place. They bother to say no - you're not jumping a JVX with 50 jumps... but can't be bothered to see if the idiot makes it back under his sabre.

It's the DZ's problem (they have to fill out the paperwork, talk to the coroner and deal with the business impact). But everyone seems to feel that it's only jumpers who could possibly be permitted to look out for jumpers. I just don't get the resistance.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Dec 21, 2012, 10:05 AM
Post #47 of 84 (2019 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Carolina Sky Sports had a great system. When you waiver into their system they gave you a card with your name on it. When you manifested for a load you gave them a jump ticket and your card. After you land the cards are hanging in a rack near the packing area. When you came in you picked your card up. About 20 minutes later manifest would check the rack and if your card was still there they would page you. I don't know what would happen if you didn't respond because I never saw it happen. Seemed to me to be a great system.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Dec 21, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #48 of 84 (2002 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Carolina Sky Sports had a great system. When you waiver into their system they gave you a card with your name on it. When you manifested for a load you gave them a jump ticket and your card. After you land the cards are hanging in a rack near the packing area. When you came in you picked your card up. About 20 minutes later manifest would check the rack and if your card was still there they would page you. I don't know what would happen if you didn't respond because I never saw it happen. Seemed to me to be a great system.

I believe Skydive Dallas has a similar system. Cool


JackC1

Dec 21, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #49 of 84 (1973 views)
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Re: [ghost47] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is a genuine question:

If, in the middle of the day, some jumper who is new to the DZ doesn't check in, what happens?

Someone does something. The alternative is that no one does anything. Which would you prefer?


ghost47  (D License)

Dec 21, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #50 of 84 (1967 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone does something. The alternative is that no one does anything. Which would you prefer?
It depends on what "someone does something" means (which is why I asked the question).

Does it mean someone broadcasts on the PA system that the missing person needs to check in? I can live with that (though that just begs the question -- what happens if they don't respond to the PA?).

Does it mean that operations shut down until this person is located? I'm not okay with that.

Does it mean jump ticket prices go up, so the DZ can hire a person specifically to deal with that? I don't think I'd be okay with that, either.

Or does it mean something else?

It really was a genuine question. At my DZ, only jumpers on the sunset load are required to check in after their jump. I have no idea what happens if someone doesn't check in. So I'm curious what the system is, or is proposed to be, for places that require checking in after every jump.


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