Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Emergency exit at a thousand feet???

 

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normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 19, 2012, 4:35 PM
Post #26 of 50 (1767 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

You say that after the last two weeks?
Unsure


BASE469  (D 14328)

Dec 19, 2012, 4:46 PM
Post #27 of 50 (1761 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I made no statement regarding any reaction to be taken in this situation, but simply copied the information from the cypres manual in order to make it clear that the blanket statement about AADs firing is, clearly, wrong, but if you'd like to argue the point, I believe that it is very important to make your decisions based upon the equipment that you've placed in your rig. It certainly does become important to base your reactions upon the firing parameters of the AAD and if you have gone above 1500' with a cypres and are now at 1000' it would be almost foolish to attempt to deploy your main canopy. If the plane has only made it to 1000' it is equally foolish to count on it saving your life.


DocPop  (C License)

Dec 19, 2012, 4:53 PM
Post #28 of 50 (1756 views)
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Re: [normiss] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You say that after the last two weeks?
Unsure

Absolutely. Their safety rules are strict and strictly enforced. More so than any other DZ I have been to.

I don't believe it is fair to blame the DZ for visiting "world class" competitors smacking themselves into the ground/pond.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 19, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #29 of 50 (1744 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fair enough.

I had heard from a number of top competitors that were there and mention what they felt were serious issues there....in a lot of areas. Safety and landing areas included.

I wasn't there, so I clearly don't know.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Dec 19, 2012, 5:04 PM
Post #30 of 50 (1743 views)
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Re: [normiss] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was always taught 1500 feet MINIMUM for bailouts.
Only reason I've ever heard "THOUSAND FEET" was for FAA approved removal of safety belts.
I've got several jumps, one emergency, from 1000' to 1200'. This was in the 7-cell F-111 days with no AAD's and I was okay with it. Now, with an AAD and a snively main, I'd bite the bullet and pull the $70 silver handle. Wink


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 19, 2012, 6:07 PM
Post #31 of 50 (1710 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Look at it this way. If the plane was at 1,000 feet and on fire, would you rather bail or stay with a plane?
I dunno...any hot dogs and buns on the plane?

Dogs. No buns. Your call.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 19, 2012, 6:49 PM
Post #32 of 50 (1697 views)
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Re: [BASE469] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It certainly does become important to base your reactions upon the firing parameters of the AAD and if you have gone above 1500' with a cypres and are now at 1000' it would be almost foolish to attempt to deploy your main canopy. If the plane has only made it to 1000' it is equally foolish to count on it saving your life.

Actually it would be foolish to attempt to make the distinction. Do you really sit on the airplane staring at your altimeter to make sure your AAD arms at 1500 feet...or 1490...or 1527? Yeah. No one else does either.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Dec 19, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #33 of 50 (1681 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dogs. No buns. Your call.
It's my buns on the plane. WinkTongueLaugh


Mac  (C 101464)

Dec 20, 2012, 3:00 AM
Post #34 of 50 (1619 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Way, WAAAAAAAAAY back, we were taught that, if we got to a thousand feet, we could get out and go immediately to our reserve and land OK. Today, that seems to scare everybody to death. What gives???

AFF breeding people that think 2,000 is too low to exit an aircraft.

Help encourage newer jumpers to do some hop n pops at 2,000 to get them used to exiting lower than they are used too, and this may help them build up a more informed emergency plan. I try and do this on low cloud days, throwing out a gainer from 2,000 to help them visualise the time you have sub-terminal from that height.

Myself, I have exited at 1,100 on my main, however depending on my equipment, the opening characteristics, AAD etc, would determine my plan of reserve or main on the =<1000ft exits. All I know, is that I am happy to exit the aircraft extrememly low, and some newer jumpers I have met would even stay on the aircraft up to 2,500ft.... that needs addressing.


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:40 AM
Post #35 of 50 (1593 views)
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Re: [Mac] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Way, WAAAAAAAAAY back, we were taught that, if we got to a thousand feet, we could get out and go immediately to our reserve and land OK. Today, that seems to scare everybody to death. What gives???

AFF breeding people that think 2,000 is too low to exit an aircraft.

Help encourage newer jumpers to do some hop n pops at 2,000 to get them used to exiting lower than they are used too, and this may help them build up a more informed emergency plan. I try and do this on low cloud days, throwing out a gainer from 2,000 to help them visualise the time you have sub-terminal from that height.

Myself, I have exited at 1,100 on my main, however depending on my equipment, the opening characteristics, AAD etc, would determine my plan of reserve or main on the =<1000ft exits. All I know, is that I am happy to exit the aircraft extrememly low, and some newer jumpers I have met would even stay on the aircraft up to 2,500ft.... that needs addressing.

The problem with that is the USPA minimum container opening altitude is 2000' for only C&D license holders.

I've gotten out at 1200' a few times, but I was hooked up to the plane and had a purdy T-10 open in no time.



If it were me (with my current canopy), it would really depend on airspeed. Give me 100 knots or better, I'll go main at 1k, any slower and I'll go reserve. (yes, I know there is no airspeed indicator near the door of non 182 jumpships)


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Dec 20, 2012, 4:47 AM)


airdvr  (D 10977)

Dec 20, 2012, 5:59 AM
Post #36 of 50 (1560 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

As always if the pilot says go you go. F111 opens quickly, I'll take silver.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 20, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #37 of 50 (1526 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've gotten out at 1200' a few times, but I was hooked up to the plane and had a purdy T-10 open in no time.

I call BS!
There are no purdy T-10s.


BTW...speaking of reserves......


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 20, 2012, 8:15 AM)


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Dec 20, 2012, 10:16 AM
Post #38 of 50 (1490 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

A quick glance through the SIM, and I don't see any recommended altitudes under aircraft emergencies.

We teach that under 1000 ft you must ride the plane down

1000' - minimum container opening alt i.e. 3000 for students, you exit on reserve.

Above 3k, exit on main.

I teach it that way and I'd probably use my reserve up to 1400 to 1800, depending on my main. Yeah, it scares me too to think about bailing at 1000, but in a catastrophic failure, I'm out the door.

FYI the FAA requires seatbelts for taxi, takeoff, and landing. Some DZs set a 1000 or 1500 limit because anything less than that and you're probably safer riding the plane down.

Another FYI, to get certified under TSO C23D, the reserve has to be fully open within 3 seconds of pin-pull. (4 seconds with 3 full line twists.) If I recall, these drops are done from 500 feet, but there is nothing about that in SAE 8015b.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Dec 28, 2012, 12:44 PM
Post #39 of 50 (1280 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have a plan before and don't question it. Deciding what to do as your leaving a dead aircraft (only reason you will be leaving at 1000') is probably not going to end well as your getting (pushed)out whether you've decided what to do once your out.

Me I'm going silver decided that a long time ago and have never questioned it. 1500 and above main but I sit by the door 99% of the time being a big fat ass belly flier so I'll know for sure the alti when I open the door. If I'm back 2 3 people I'm not looking I'm exiting and I'm going silver as checking to see how much altitude we may have lost isn't on my priority list at that point.


(This post was edited by catfishhunter on Dec 28, 2012, 12:45 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 28, 2012, 5:21 PM
Post #40 of 50 (1209 views)
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We teach that under 1000 ft you must ride the plane down

1000' - minimum container opening alt i.e. 3000 for students, you exit on reserve.

Above 3k, exit on main.

Well, not everyone teaches that, fo' sho'. The 3000 has nothing to do with the main or reserve decision. When asked what that main/reserve decision altitude should be for them, students, by far and away, will pick 2500 ft - it's already known to them as Decision Altitude.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 28, 2012, 5:32 PM
Post #41 of 50 (1205 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have a plan before and don't question it.

Exactly. Have a plan. Pick an altitude for that main/reserve decision.
When the shit hits the fan and an exit is called for,
-STFU, check helmet, seat belt, altitude, STFU
--Above? Deploy main
--Below? Deploy reserve.

Pretty damn simple. Just stick to your plan.

Yes, yes, yes...for those of you jumping varying terrain, you'll need to account for that in setting your decision. For you guys, I wouldn't argue against a quick look as you leave. I would recommend though that you have your hand on your reserve handle in case you are over the top of that hill. If you are not over that hill, it's easy enough to pull main instead.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 29, 2012, 5:33 PM
Post #42 of 50 (1131 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Doubtful any pilot today will order a mass exit at 1000 feet.

Agreed. Most pilots will have other things on their minds during an engine out than telling skydivers if they should get out or not. Most pilots have had engine out procedures drummed into them from their first few hours - and most have never practiced making the decision to tell their passengers to bail out. Like anyone else, unless it's trained and practiced it doesn't get used.

Now, take a pilot who loses power at 3000 feet, is trimmed for glide, has a landing site selected, has talked to ATC, tried a restart etc - THEN he might start thinking about talking about a bailout. But that's going to happen around 2000 feet, not shortly after he loses power.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Dec 30, 2012, 2:10 PM
Post #43 of 50 (1038 views)
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Re: [billvon] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Doubtful any pilot today will order a mass exit at 1000 feet.

Agreed. Most pilots will have other things on their minds during an engine out than telling skydivers if they should get out or not. Most pilots have had engine out procedures drummed into them from their first few hours - and most have never practiced making the decision to tell their passengers to bail out. Like anyone else, unless it's trained and practiced it doesn't get used.

Now, take a pilot who loses power at 3000 feet, is trimmed for glide, has a landing site selected, has talked to ATC, tried a restart etc - THEN he might start thinking about talking about a bailout. But that's going to happen around 2000 feet, not shortly after he loses power.

And to expand on that, the last thing a pilot wants or needs during an emergency is to have a lot of weight shifting around. Unless the pilot says "Go!" or it's clearly apparent that it's time to leave (like the plane is spinning downwards), then sit still!


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 4, 2013, 2:07 AM
Post #44 of 50 (849 views)
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Re: [billvon] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some pilots do look out for the jumpers though. We had a 1800ft engine out, pilot did the trim and it was GO GO GO. Outlanding, and funny enough, everyone went for mains. Not sure what alti the last person went at.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 1:18 PM
Post #45 of 50 (788 views)
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Re: [potatoman] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some pilots do look out for the jumpers though. We had a 1800ft engine out, pilot did the trim and it was GO GO GO. Outlanding, and funny enough, everyone went for mains. Not sure what alti the last person went at.

Same...
1st of 20 out at 1700, last 2 out at ~1900


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 4, 2013, 1:53 PM
Post #46 of 50 (770 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
like the plane is spinning downwards

How many spins can you get in from a grand?Wink


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 7:07 PM
Post #47 of 50 (693 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
like the plane is spinning downwards

How many spins can you get in from a grand?Wink

Enough to take the rest of your life to count them all. Unimpressed


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 7:43 PM
Post #48 of 50 (677 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
like the plane is spinning downwards

How many spins can you get in from a grand?Wink

A GREAT pilot would get one more after the bounce.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 10:24 PM
Post #49 of 50 (656 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
like the plane is spinning downwards

How many spins can you get in from a grand?Wink

A GREAT pilot would get one more after the bounce.

I flared after the bounce - does that make me a great canopy pilot? Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 5, 2013, 6:08 PM
Post #50 of 50 (611 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I flared after the bounce - does that make me a great canopy pilot? Wink

Only if you squeezed out a Blind Man after the flare.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 5, 2013, 6:09 PM)


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