Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
To RSL or not to RSL

 

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Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 17, 2013, 9:21 PM
Post #101 of 115 (964 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

hahaha, speaking from experience?
Fuck I'd love to see that hahaha


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 17, 2013, 10:08 PM
Post #102 of 115 (955 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You will also decide to cut away when you land in high winds and are being dragged backwards on your back, towards the parking stops in the lot you just landed out in. Wishing you'd disconnected your RSL.


In reply to:
[reply[
Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?

Yeh. I was taught that if it's unavoidable get big (spread arms n legs).]

Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 17, 2013, 11:14 PM
Post #103 of 115 (950 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.

We were taught to get big but what is being said about micro lines does make sense. I will have to ask an instructor at my DZ n see what the go is locally.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 18, 2013, 8:46 AM
Post #104 of 115 (890 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I always figured I'd go for body to body, feet first Tongue

In reply to:
Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 18, 2013, 9:54 AM
Post #105 of 115 (879 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>I always figured I'd go for body to body, feet first

I recall an incident in Eloy that resulted in a feet-first collision. One jumper survived, although he now has one less foot.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 19, 2013, 1:37 AM
Post #106 of 115 (807 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many people do you know that would be able to take their RSL and fully instal it?
Every student I teach. Knowing how the RSL works is part of the A-license requirements in the U.S.

In reply to:
It's great that I am trying to share with everyone here that I learned something about a simple but dangerous mistake that a RIGGER made and yet all you guys want to do is take the piss out of me.
Congrats on finding it, We are "taking the piss out of you" because:
- You didn't know this stuff already
- You went six months without checking it
- You don't know the rules of your own organization
- You were too lazy to go look it up.
- You bought gear and didn't RTFM
- You made your rigger responsible instead of yourself

In reply to:
Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my reserve pin to reroute my RSL?
What are the Australian rules on that?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 19, 2013, 1:41 AM)


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 19, 2013, 6:33 PM
Post #107 of 115 (756 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

These 2 threads talk about how a skyhook can screw up a good main.

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

In both cases the Collins lanyard disconnected a main riser.

Skyhooks are a far more complicated system than an RSL


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jan 19, 2013, 7:49 PM
Post #108 of 115 (743 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
These 2 threads talk about how a skyhook can screw up a good main.

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

In both cases the Collins lanyard disconnected a main riser.

Skyhooks are a far more complicated system than an RSL

At least tell the whole story.

In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the AAD.

In the second thread the reserve pack tray was dislodged during opening which was determined to have been loosing up over time due to side loaded openings.

Lets please tell the whole truth and the whole story so the young jumpers who don't know about these incidents don't just read into this that the Skyhook is the devil.

I don't doubt you'll likely respond that they should read these threads - but we all know that a lot people are not going to read these 10 page threads just to get to the truth about these old beaten to death incidents.

I know the Skyhook adds complexity to our rigs but then so does the AAD.

I just wish we could give full disclosure on everything and not use old incident threads to spread fear.

But then that's just me.

.


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 20, 2013, 5:41 AM
Post #109 of 115 (694 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the AAD.

Because the AAD worked as designed. The Skyhook didn't. Fair enough?!


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 20, 2013, 6:23 AM
Post #110 of 115 (678 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the aad


.

In both cases however, if the people involved had had a standard RSL and not a skyhook, it would have been a non-event which most likely never would have shown up in these forums. People need to read those threads and understand that.

Skyhooks can and probably already have saved lives. But the kid in Chicago is alive through sheer luck and it would have been a non-event if he had had a regular RSL. That's what scares me.

People should read those threads and learn. Some may still choose to get a Skyhook and some may not. But to me it's critical that you understand all the issues. And things like if I had a skyhook and accidentally pulled low and had an AAD fire to make me tow a reserve pc behind my good main - I'm not sure whether the best plan would be to try and get good grips on my reserve pc to make sure my main doesn't accidentally get disconnected or whether I should cutaway and hope the skyhook gets my reserve to come out in time. Somehow I would want to make extremely certain that the Collins lanyard doesn't turn my main into junk 200 feet off the ground like it did for the Chicago kid. I haven't thought about what to do because I don't have one, but its far more important to come up with a plan for that if you have a Skyhook than if you don't. What can possibly happen is different with a skyhook than a regular rig.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jan 20, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #111 of 115 (660 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Skyhooks are just like every other device added to a basic rig that is intended to reduce risk: their presence means there are additional failure modes that can cause harm that wouldn't have occurred in their absence. But skydiving technology is no different than any other area of technology. For example, there are unambiguous cases of air bags and seat belts in automobiles resulting in fatalities that would not have occurred had they not been present.

The fact that such incidents have occurred (and will continue occur) is not the relevant consideration. Seat belt and airbags have saved far more lives than they have taken: the data is unequivocal. Their value is not diminished by noting some fatalities or injuries occurred because they were installed; one has to look at the data on both sides of the ledger.

The relevant question here should be whether Skyhooks (or RSLs, or AAD, etc) result in a significant overall reduction in risk due to their presence/use, compared to their absence. While I don't know that this is the case with respect to the Skyhook, that is only because I (personally) have not seen the data comparing saves (and injury reductions) to those cases where the presence of a Skyhook was a factor in an injury or fatality. But ultimately, that is the analysis one must to do to determine whether a skyhook is truly a valuable safety device, as opposed to a device that just trades one risk for another equal risk.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 20, 2013, 4:39 PM
Post #112 of 115 (614 views)
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Re: [Divalent] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Good stuff!


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 20, 2013, 7:37 PM
Post #113 of 115 (593 views)
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Re: [Divalent] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. I do think people need to make sure and plan procedures for their specific gear. If you have an rsl plan to disconnect it if you have 2-out or are landing in water. If you have a skyhook and have a reserve pc out with a good main for whatever reason ( low pull/aad fire, reserve container ripped after a hard opening, knocked a pin loose on exit or whatever - your procedures might should be different than someone without one. I bet 75 percent of people out there might have never considered how they might should change their plans depending on their particular gear.

Know your gear intimately. I'm not saying a skyhook is bad. I'm not saying an rsl is bad. I am saying that in certain situations you need to have different procedures if you have one than if you don't. And the time to think all of that stuff through is on the ground and talking to your rigger and your instructors and learning your gear.

The skyhook is a reasonably complicated setup. If you have one and have never seen how it works get your rigger to show you at your next reserve repack at the latest. Understand the pros the cons and learn as much as you can about it both good and bad. Then think about all the possible malfunctions and issues and come up with a plan on the ground. The last place you want to be having to improvise is at a 1000 feet in a sketchy situation after a low pull. Have a plan. Know your gear. So many skydivers have no clue how their gear works. And that can kill you. KNOW YOUR GEAR.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 20, 2013, 9:43 PM
Post #114 of 115 (577 views)
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Re: [Divalent] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>The relevant question here should be whether Skyhooks (or RSLs, or AAD, etc) result
>in a significant overall reduction in risk due to their presence/use, compared to their
>absence.

Exactly. And overall they seem to do more good than harm. But they are complex enough that they are getting very close to that line. (IMO of course)


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jan 20, 2013, 11:06 PM
Post #115 of 115 (568 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Skyhooks can and probably already have saved lives. But the kid in Chicago is alive through sheer luck and it would have been a non-event if he had had a regular RSL. That's what scares me.

That "kid" (who was well in his 40's) is alive because he got lucky plain and simple. His container had separated from the harness and he was trailing his reserve PC. When he went to make a turn the colin's lanyard disconnected his riser.

Had that gear not have a skyhook who knows what would have happened. Maybe the reserve would have extracted at 250 and went into a downplane??

I for one am glad Jim is ok, but he was lucky. He did his EP's "wrong" according to what was taught to him, but it quite possibly saved his life.


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