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To RSL or not to RSL

 

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Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 14, 2013, 8:49 PM
Post #76 of 115 (1192 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I never meant it to sound as though the RSL is a primary means of deployment. We are trained to ALWAYS follow through the entire procedure regardless, as you said. There are some occasions we are trained to disconnect the RSL such as some canopy collisions or water landings etc. What I was trying to say is wouldn't you be better off with an RSL that you can disconnect if you feel you have enough altitude and feel you are better off to do so. If you don't have enough altitude to disconnect the RSL then you probably don't have enough altitude to get stable anyway. Kind of like better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it.

At the end of the day our DZ CI with 30 000+ jumps tells me to use an RSL, therefor I'm using an RSL.


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jan 14, 2013, 8:55 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:01 PM
Post #77 of 115 (1183 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I never meant it to sound as though the RSL is a primary means of deployment. We are trained to ALWAYS follow through the entire procedure regardless, as you said.
Whew!~ Had me worried there for a while. Good on your instructors.


In reply to:
There are some occasions we are trained to disconnect the RSL such as some canopy collisions or water landings etc.
True. Again, good on your instructors.

In reply to:
What I was trying to say is wouldn't you be better off with an RSL that you can disconnect...
Do you have an RSL that you cannot disconnect? If so, please describe the RSL connection [point, please.


In reply to:
if you feel you have enough altitude and feel you are better off to do so.
Let's say you had all the altitude you needed....what circumstances would prompt you to disconnect the RSL?


In reply to:
...you probably don't have enough altitude to get stable anyway.
Trev, at this stage of the game for you, getting stable after a cutaway is just about the least of your worries. Heck, even old-timers do that....and die because they waited too long to get stable. In fact, some of them never did get stable before the crater happened.

In reply to:
Kind of like better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it.
Exactly.


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:22 PM
Post #78 of 115 (1176 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Man u are misreading everything I'm saying.. I agree with everything you just said 100%..

In reply to:

In reply to:
What I was trying to say is wouldn't you be better off with an RSL that you can disconnect...
Do you have an RSL that you cannot disconnect? If so, please describe the RSL connection [point, please.

Not a RSL that CAN't be disconnected (do they even exist?). I meant you have the OPTION of disconnecting it.

In reply to:
In reply to:
if you feel you have enough altitude and feel you are better off to do so.
Let's say you had all the altitude you needed....what circumstances would prompt you to disconnect the RSL?
I can't think of any, I would chop and pull reserve straight away, it;s what I've been trained to do.


In reply to:
...you probably don't have enough altitude to get stable anyway.
Trev, at this stage of the game for you, getting stable after a cutaway is just about the least of your worries. Heck, even old-timers do that....and die because they waited too long to get stable. In fact, some of them never did get stable before the crater happened.

I don't disagree, I doubt this would ever change.

In reply to:
Kind of like better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it.
Exactly.
My original post was PRO RSL. I really don't know how you got the idea that I think people would be better off without one... I was posting it a question, the basic gist being "Wouldn't you b better off with one and have the option"


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jan 14, 2013, 9:47 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:58 PM
Post #79 of 115 (1161 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Man u are misreading everything I'm saying.. I agree with everything you just said 100%..
In reply to:
LaughLaugh
"...an RSL that you can disconnect" is a lot different than,
"...you have the OPTION of disconnecting it. "

I don't have the power to read "between the lines" so to speak. We're on the same page with that now that you clarified.

In reply to:
Not a RSL that CAN't be disconnected (do they even exist?).
Yes. That's why I asked. Ironically there is discussion of that in one of the current threads. I don't recall which one.

Quote:
Let's say you had all the altitude you needed....what circumstances would prompt you to disconnect the RSL?
In reply to:
I can't think of any, I would chop and pull reserve straight away, it;s what I've been trained to do.

Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?


In reply to:
...you probably don't have enough altitude to get stable anyway.
Trev, at this stage of the game for you, getting stable after a cutaway is just about the least of your worries. Heck, even old-timers do that....and die because they waited too long to get stable. In fact, some of them never did get stable before the crater happened.


I don't disagree, I doubt this would ever change.

In reply to:
Kind of like better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it.
Exactly.

In reply to:
I really don't know how you got the idea that I think people would be better off without one...
Slow down a little Trev. No need for excitement. OK? Never said that. Never implied that. See the above "exactly".

In reply to:
"Wouldn't you b better off with one and have the option"
There ya' go! Simple, precise and to the point.
Yes. Personally, I can't think of any situation where that would not be applicable.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 14, 2013, 10:00 PM)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 14, 2013, 11:40 PM
Post #80 of 115 (1148 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply[
Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?
Yeh. I was taught that if it's unavoidable get big (spread arms n legs).Communicate with each other (if you're on the bottom read out altitude to guy in wrap, let him know if his canopy is good etc). Figure out if some1 needs to chop, wait for OK b4 chopping if you do. Make decision whether or not to disconnect RSL.

Only other situation I can think of for disconnecting the RSL is if you're landing in water. If the canopy sinks you'll have to cutaway from it and you don't want your reserve coming out if that happens.

I can't think of any other reason??


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jan 14, 2013, 11:41 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #81 of 115 (1078 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Trev. Communication is key in collision situations.

I realize that you are in Aussie land and your country's procedures may be different for some of these things. I offer USPA recommendations as food for thought and discussion with your mentors.

..there's more though.

You didn't talk about wraps and entanglements.

Collisions:
There is another school of thought that says make yourself as small as possible with the intent to pass through the lines instead if getting tangled up in the. In fact. USPA recommends that (see USPA SIM 5-1 H). Why? One reason is that Spectra lines will cut you to the bone...not good. Like everything else, there's pros/cons with both methods. Discuss the pros/cons with your instructors as always.

Also from the SIM 6-6:
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs
as wide as possible
to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines, provided the
suspension lines are made from larger diameter
Dacron.
b. The other hand is used to protect the
reserve ripcord.
c. Canopies with small diameter suspension line,
such as Spectra or HMA, can lead to more serious
injuries during a collision than canopies using
larger diameter suspension lines made from
Dacron.
(1) Jumpers should tuck in arms, legs and head if
the collision involves canopies with small
diameter suspension lines.
(2) Avoid hitting the suspension lines or other
jumper, if at all possible.

Sadly, it seems that USPA has done away with defining wraps and entanglements and only mentions entanglements now. Ask about what they are and the procedures that used to be recommended for each. If you have some highly experienced CrW dogs on the DZ...talk to them. They are the best to answer these types of questions.


Situations I can think of for disconnecting the RSL:
High winds on landing
Landing on a building
Landing in a tree
Landing in water
Landing in power lines
Upper jumper in an entanglement situation
Two canopies out

If you care to, you can get a hard copy or a soft copy (PDF file) and read it...it's our skydiving bible in the U.S.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 15, 2013, 10:06 AM)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 15, 2013, 1:45 PM
Post #82 of 115 (1040 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

We were told you can go through but you have to decide whether to go through or go back depending on the situation but that going through will always result in at least one cutaway.

Can you tell what lines people are using before you collide?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:46 PM
Post #83 of 115 (1009 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can you tell what lines people are using before you collide?

And therein lies the rub....I guess USPA expects us to call time out and ask just before the crash.
CrazyCrazy


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:49 PM
Post #84 of 115 (1005 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you tell what lines people are using before you collide?

And therein lies the rub....I guess USPA expects us to call time out and ask just before the crash.
CrazyCrazy

While some of the EPs may also be relevant to people not doing CRW who find themselves in a canopy collision, if you're going to quote from 6-6, you probably also want to mention that's the section on CRW. I'm not a CRW dawg, but I'd imagine one would be aware of the equipment (including line type) if you're choosing to do CRW.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jan 15, 2013, 4:50 PM)


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 15, 2013, 5:39 PM
Post #85 of 115 (990 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you tell what lines people are using before you collide?

And therein lies the rub....I guess USPA expects us to call time out and ask just before the crash.
CrazyCrazy

I would just assume that everything in the air around me is microline or worse and would act accordingly...attempt to protect belly, chest, and neck (at the expense of arms and shins, i guess). Probably covers 99% of the situations.

Of course...hope to never, ever be there...

Outside of the situations you mention above, the only time I disconnect my RSL is for clear and pulls from altitude.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 16, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #86 of 115 (917 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not a CRW dawg, but I'd imagine one would be aware of the equipment (including line type) if you're choosing to do CRW.
True enough. Keep in mind we are talking for the benefit of young jumpers who typically are NOT aware of special equipment for CrW. A wrap or an entanglement is as it is regardless of the disciple being worked.

On top of that I went back to refresh my memory on it and sure enough, there is no USPA recommendation for line type.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 16, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #87 of 115 (918 views)
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Re: [hillson] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would just assume that everything in the air around me is microline or worse and would act accordingly...
Exactly.

RSL...clear and pull from altitude?...I don't understand that. Would you elaborate, please?
Thanks in advance.

edited to add:
Because if you had to cutaway at altitude, you'd want to wait until normal pull altitude before deploying the reserve?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 16, 2013, 11:36 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 16, 2013, 11:55 AM
Post #88 of 115 (904 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would just assume that everything in the air around me is microline or worse and would act accordingly...
Exactly.

RSL...clear and pull from altitude?...I don't understand that. Would you elaborate, please?
Thanks in advance.

edited to add:
Because if you had to cutaway at altitude, you'd want to wait until normal pull altitude before deploying the reserve?

Yeah...it's in the SIM ~ Ya grap one main toggle in the left hand and chop the function...

Drag the main down to 2200' with ya so you can find it easier...let go of the toggle from the main, and then fire off plan B. Sly


YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS STUFF! Devil


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 16, 2013, 12:08 PM
Post #89 of 115 (901 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

You had a two-out.
I has a line-over a streaming spinner. I'm not strong enough to hold on so I'd ride the rock 'n roller down to 2K and fire.
Angelic


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 16, 2013, 12:10 PM)


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 16, 2013, 12:17 PM
Post #90 of 115 (895 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
RSL...clear and pull from altitude?...I don't understand that. Would you elaborate, please?
Thanks in advance.

edited to add:
Because if you had to cutaway at altitude, you'd want to wait until normal pull altitude before deploying the reserve?

Yeah...sort of beyond the scope of the original question but...several possible failure / malfunction modes.

1) Generally if I do a clear and pull from altitude it is with a group. Maybe some proximity flying, light end cell bump etc. Never know when a wrap / entanglement may bite you. Better be prepared...

2) But no RSL (for me) is mainly for a mal right out the door. Not talking about some spinny thing where you're in danger of passing out or, god forbid, some fucked up horseshoe etc...I take good care of my stuff but Murphy lurks, right?...but standard failure modes post-deployment where there is the possibility having enough altitude to take a bit to see if it can be fixed etc. If not...if you can ride it down to an altitude where there is a better chance of recovering your gear before cutting away.

3) The real gnarly stuff would be something higher speed like a streamer or a bag lock with enough drag to stand you up and start booking. If it is stable enough to be ridden down for a bit I'd like to chop it lower to increase chances of recovery but, more importantly, have enough altitude to slow down a bit after cutaway. I'd rather head back into freefall and then pop the reserve rather than having it blast off my back at 170mph...Plus, what if there isn't enough drag to clear the risers etc. Would like some altitude to sort that, too.

Alti would probably be somewhere between 5-7K depending on the specific situation. I wouldn't bother riding it down to 3K.

Edit: maybe I'm over thinking...but I'm assuming that with slower speed type stuff one may have the altitude to figure it out / ride it a little bit assuming it is relatively stable. Assuming, too, I'm within reasonable / makeable distance of the DZ / safe outs etc - ie: not 3 miles over the swamp. I'm new...could be wrong.


(This post was edited by hillson on Jan 16, 2013, 12:27 PM)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 16, 2013, 1:53 PM
Post #91 of 115 (866 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Yeah...it's in the SIM ~ Ya grap one main toggle in the left hand and chop the function...

Drag the main down to 2200' with ya so you can find it easier...let go of the toggle from the main, and then fire off plan B. Sly


YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS STUFF! Devil

I can understand why experienced jumpers would do this but isn't it still an unnecessary risk? I would have thought getting your reserve out ASAP even if you're at 7000 for eg would be safer as it gives you tons of altitude to work out any mals your reserve may have (line twists for eg).


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 16, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #92 of 115 (855 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Yeah...it's in the SIM ~ Ya grap one main toggle in the left hand and chop the function...

Drag the main down to 2200' with ya so you can find it easier...let go of the toggle from the main, and then fire off plan B. Sly


YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS STUFF! Devil

I can understand why experienced jumpers would do this but isn't it still an unnecessary risk? I would have thought getting your reserve out ASAP even if you're at 7000 for eg would be safer as it gives you tons of altitude to work out any mals your reserve may have (line twists for eg).

You are quite right Grasshopper. Cool


No one, regardless of experience level should ever attempt to pull a stunt like that.

I can think of 5 things that 'could' go wrong and ruin your whole day...there are probably more but I got a headache today so I'll stop at 5.

You're relatively new to this site so you get a pass...for future reference ~

I'm an extremely sarcastic, grumpy old fart that 'experimented' WAY too much in the 70's, when ya see a lil' devil icon in a post of mine - it's a pretty safe bet I'm just bullshittin' again. Angelic

Heads up call on your part for smelling a rat and asking a question...you'll go far in this sport!


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jan 16, 2013, 2:11 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 16, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #93 of 115 (842 views)
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Re: [hillson] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
RSL...clear and pull from altitude?...I don't understand that. Would you elaborate, please?
Thanks in advance.

edited to add:
Because if you had to cutaway at altitude, you'd want to wait until normal pull altitude before deploying the reserve?

Yeah...sort of beyond the scope of the original question but...several possible failure / malfunction modes.

1) Generally if I do a clear and pull from altitude it is with a group. Maybe some proximity flying, light end cell bump etc. Never know when a wrap / entanglement may bite you. Better be prepared...

2) But no RSL (for me) is mainly for a mal right out the door. Not talking about some spinny thing where you're in danger of passing out or, god forbid, some fucked up horseshoe etc...I take good care of my stuff but Murphy lurks, right?...but standard failure modes post-deployment where there is the possibility having enough altitude to take a bit to see if it can be fixed etc. If not...if you can ride it down to an altitude where there is a better chance of recovering your gear before cutting away.

3) The real gnarly stuff would be something higher speed like a streamer or a bag lock with enough drag to stand you up and start booking. If it is stable enough to be ridden down for a bit I'd like to chop it lower to increase chances of recovery but, more importantly, have enough altitude to slow down a bit after cutaway. I'd rather head back into freefall and then pop the reserve rather than having it blast off my back at 170mph...Plus, what if there isn't enough drag to clear the risers etc. Would like some altitude to sort that, too.

Alti would probably be somewhere between 5-7K depending on the specific situation. I wouldn't bother riding it down to 3K.

Edit: maybe I'm over thinking...but I'm assuming that with slower speed type stuff one may have the altitude to figure it out / ride it a little bit assuming it is relatively stable. Assuming, too, I'm within reasonable / makeable distance of the DZ / safe outs etc - ie: not 3 miles over the swamp. I'm new...could be wrong.

I really think most of what you've posted is simply because you don't have the experience to know better. Once you have determined that a parachute is un-landable, WHY would you even consider delaying your EP's? Are you SURE that your reserve will be without problem? Are you SURE that you will have an uneventful release?

Ive seen both those things and much more and I've only been doing this for 15 years.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 16, 2013, 3:15 PM
Post #94 of 115 (828 views)
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Re: [hillson] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>you can ride it down to an altitude where there is a better chance of recovering
>your gear before cutting away.

>If it is stable enough to be ridden down for a bit I'd like to chop it lower

These two statements are very worrisome. They reveal an approach of "malfunctions are straightforward; emergency procedures always take a few seconds so I'll wait a while before taking action." What if you can't find your reserve handle? What happens if your main just spins and spins for a while, then when you go to cutaway, the twists have trapped your cutaway cables? What if your reserve is harder to pull than you thought it was? What if the long spin loosened your harness and your reserve pull now just pulls your main lift web away from your chest?

(I've seen all those things happen)

>have enough altitude to slow down a bit after cutaway.

If there is enough drag to stand you up you're going at freefall or slower speeds. If there's not enough drag to stand you up then you can stay on your belly and remain at freefall speeds. Both are bad options; cut away and deploy your reserve. It is never in your best interest to remain under a malfunctioning parachute.

If you do, for some reason, want to cut away and not have your reserve open, then disconnect your RSL before cutting away. If you don't have time to do that - then be glad that RSL is there to save you a few more seconds when you need them.


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 16, 2013, 3:18 PM
Post #95 of 115 (825 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a good point. Possible - even likely - that I'm assed around on this point. I'll ask the instructors this weekend and report back. It isn't like this received wisdom is my own invention but I'm perfectly happy being corrected.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 16, 2013, 5:43 PM
Post #96 of 115 (787 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you care to, you can get a hard copy or a soft copy (PDF file) and read it...it's our skydiving bible in the U.S.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

Andy, while I like the SIM and have a copy, I think for an Aussie Student our Operational Regulations and "A license Manual" and "B license Manual" would be better reads. There are enough differences (opening heights, license requirements, cloud jumping etc) that the SIM could cause confusion.

Once he's got his B license I agree the SIM is a valuable reference tool.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 17, 2013, 5:05 PM
Post #97 of 115 (723 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Heads up call on your part for smelling a rat and asking a question...you'll go far in this sport!

Yeah...and YOU smelled out the rat I threw.

God how I was praying that nobody would actually consider doing the "ride-out".
Unsure


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 17, 2013, 5:14 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 17, 2013, 5:13 PM
Post #98 of 115 (718 views)
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Re: [nigel99] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you care to, you can get a hard copy or a soft copy (PDF file) and read it...it's our skydiving bible in the U.S.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

Andy, while I like the SIM and have a copy, I think for an Aussie Student our Operational Regulations and "A license Manual" and "B license Manual" would be better reads. There are enough differences (opening heights, license requirements, cloud jumping etc) that the SIM could cause confusion.

Once he's got his B license I agree the SIM is a valuable reference tool.

Yep...hence, I wrote...
"I realize that you are in Aussie land and your country's procedures may be different for some of these things. I offer USPA recommendations as food for thought and discussion with your mentors. "

I didn't think of the confusion factor...I was trying to encourage reading about stuff and talking about stuff.

Thanks for the heads up on the confusion factor.


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 17, 2013, 6:49 PM
Post #99 of 115 (685 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeh, if there's anything I'm not sure about I check with my local instructors, they know their shit. Not that people on these forums don't but I got nfi who you all are ;)


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 17, 2013, 8:43 PM
Post #100 of 115 (667 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

You will also decide to cut away when you land in high winds and are being dragged backwards on your back, towards the parking stops in the lot you just landed out in. Wishing you'd disconnected your RSL.


In reply to:
[reply[
Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?

Yeh. I was taught that if it's unavoidable get big (spread arms n legs).Communicate with each other (if you're on the bottom read out altitude to guy in wrap, let him know if his canopy is good etc). Figure out if some1 needs to chop, wait for OK b4 chopping if you do. Make decision whether or not to disconnect RSL.

Only other situation I can think of for disconnecting the RSL is if you're landing in water. If the canopy sinks you'll have to cutaway from it and you don't want your reserve coming out if that happens.

I can't think of any other reason??


(This post was edited by jsaxton on Jan 17, 2013, 8:58 PM)


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