Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
To RSL or not to RSL

 

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danornan  (D 11308)

Jan 5, 2013, 5:06 AM
Post #51 of 115 (1519 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

Have an RSL installed while you do your research. It is simple, easily installed and works better than not for the average skydiver. RSL vs Skyhook is still very debatable. By the way, most of us are average.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 3:15 PM
Post #52 of 115 (1440 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

My rig has a new skyhook in it,...

AND now I lay awake nights THINKING,...that If ever I pull my reserve I have a piece of "new Tech" that in order to save my ass, it has to release???

(For the reserve pilot chute to fully deploy)

I gave my life to Bill B. and John S. a long time ago, about the only thing these two agree upon is that a RSL is a good idea. And I trust them!


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 6, 2013, 4:10 PM
Post #53 of 115 (1423 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

My rig has a new skyhook in it,...

AND now I lay awake nights THINKING,...that If ever I pull my reserve I have a piece of "new Tech" that in order to save my ass, it has to release???

(For the reserve pilot chute to fully deploy)

I gave my life to Bill B. and John S. a long time ago, about the only thing these two agree upon is that a RSL is a good idea. And I trust them!

And bear in mind a guy with 66 jumps on student status is probably not the best source of information!


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:02 PM
Post #54 of 115 (1408 views)
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Re: [nigel99] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I try to listen intently to the students because:
No question on the ground is stupid, it promotes discussion and in-fact this discussion promotes safety.

I also listen because this tells me a little about their training, who taught them so to speak...

Some discussions have a basis in fact, and many discussions are unintentional misquotes or misunderstandings...

Some of the way things are, are because of hard decisions,...The simple facts are we have a bunch of cutaway pulls ridden down to the ground,...and these are well documented! We do not have a pile of RSL incidents, that are well documented. There simply isn't a lot of individuals walking around today stating: "thank god my rsl wasn't connected,...if that thing was connected I wouldn't be here."

The whole RSL debate may in fact be a "Hard Decision." Thank God for all of you guys and nigel99 for pointing this out, In all of our quests to promote each others well being this may end up being one of those personal decisions each of us will have to face.

To Illustrate my point, Bill B. came up with the 3 ring System, it clearly save's lives when compared with the old "one shots," one shots are still in wide use by the way. Ok, so now we have "mini rings," and now we have lots of documented cases of mini ring failure...

Time will tell with some areas of equipment. Other equipment areas are : Hard Decisions.
C

Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:49 PM
Post #55 of 115 (1399 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period

Where is your dz again? Because, I'm going to reserve the right to use (or not to use) my RSL. Smile


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:56 PM
Post #56 of 115 (1393 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period

Where is your dz again? Because, I'm going to reserve the right to use (or not to use) my RSL. Smile

Well as you are still a student with 1500 jumps, maybe its time to take up bowlingLaughLaughAngelicTongue


in2jumping  (C License)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:57 PM
Post #57 of 115 (1392 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

Standard RSLs are simple proven technology, skyhook is complicated new technology. For me the potential issues and add complexity of the skyhook is not worth the 150' quicker it gets your reserve open in.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jan 6, 2013, 6:07 PM
Post #58 of 115 (1383 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

Standard RSLs are simple proven technology, skyhook is complicated new technology. For me the potential issues and add complexity of the skyhook is not worth the 150' quicker it gets your reserve open in.

I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 6, 2013, 6:11 PM
Post #59 of 115 (1378 views)
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Re: [nigel99] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period

Where is your dz again? Because, I'm going to reserve the right to use (or not to use) my RSL. Smile

Well as you are still a student with 1500 jumps, maybe its time to take up bowlingLaughLaughAngelicTongue

The bowling leage sent me to the DZ???? TongueHow the hell do you think I got into this sport.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 6, 2013, 6:16 PM
Post #60 of 115 (1373 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

Standard RSLs are simple proven technology, skyhook is complicated new technology. For me the potential issues and add complexity of the skyhook is not worth the 150' quicker it gets your reserve open in.

I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system

I can't remember the exact formula from reliability theory, but the number of ways that a system can fail is something like the nth power, where n is the number of components involved. So a MARD (Skyhook) with multiple complexities is many times more likely to go wrong than a simpler system.

* Of course, humans are still more stupid than a more complex system, and this needs to be factored in. I am utterly convinced that RSL is better than a human, I'm not so convinced that a MARD is (yet).


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #61 of 115 (1326 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system

Because several things have to happen in sequence to insure proper operation
Because one component relies upon absolute physical orientation to operate correctly
Because there are ways to cause a failure of a working main parachute system through a failure of the Skyhook


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 1:57 PM
Post #62 of 115 (1302 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system

Because several things have to happen in sequence to insure proper operation
Because one component relies upon absolute physical orientation to operate correctly
Because there are ways to cause a failure of a working main parachute system through a failure of the Skyhook

Ok, I have to ask exactly what do you mean with the last comment? How can failure of the skyhook, and please be explicit, cause an issue with a fully functioning main? Angelic
C


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 2:57 PM
Post #63 of 115 (1284 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>How can failure of the skyhook, and please be explicit, cause an issue with a fully
>functioning main?

Specifically if part of a Skyhook gets snagged on something else (another jumper, the doorframe etc) it can cut away one side of your main parachute via the Collins lanyard.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 3:17 PM
Post #64 of 115 (1279 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>How can failure of the skyhook, and please be explicit, cause an issue with a fully
>functioning main?

Specifically if part of a Skyhook gets snagged on something else (another jumper, the doorframe etc) it can cut away one side of your main parachute via the Collins lanyard.

Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....
Complete the sequence, complete the sequence, complete the sequence,...

thanks??? UnsureMadFrown


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 3:28 PM
Post #65 of 115 (1272 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys
>the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's an issue but not a likely one. I have only seen that scenario happen once and while it pulled the cutaway cable out, it did NOT pull it far enough to disconnect the riser.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 4:02 PM
Post #66 of 115 (1257 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

No, you raise a very good point...Yes the RSL on the VIII are fully velcroed in and under the reserve risers..but neverless it is a more complex system! Thanks for the nightmares :)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:46 AM
Post #67 of 115 (1185 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys
>the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's an issue but not a likely one. I have only seen that scenario happen once and while it pulled the cutaway cable out, it did NOT pull it far enough to disconnect the riser.

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM

Pirate


gregpso  (Student)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:53 AM
Post #68 of 115 (1184 views)
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Re: [nigel99] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least researchit.
My rig has a new skyhookinit,... AND nowI lay awake nights THINKING,...thatIf everI pullmy reserveI have a piece of "new Tech" thatin orderto savemy ass,it hasto release??? (For the reserve pilot chuteto fully deploy) I gave my lifeto Bill B. and John S. a long time ago, about the only thing these two agree uponis that a RSLis a goodidea. AndI trust them!
And bearin mind a guy with 66 jumps on student statusis probably not the best source ofinformation!

Good on you Nigel. I trust what Bill Booth says and I have personally corresponded with him a few times. Supporting the new technology was the beginning of the end of my career at a drop zone I loved (other factors of course) 30 years ago I copped heaps by supporting the coming aads... (no internet of course then)

Now aads are common place MARDS will be on most rigs quite soon. I was right 30 years ago and I am right now !!howeverI am long retired from jumping so why should I care.. but infact I do care and wish you all safe jumping.

Now as the priest said to grass hopper.. after he grabbed the pebble from his hand. "Time for to leave.. so I leave. I can only take so much abuse or emails I stand by my opinions !

Bye !!


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 8, 2013, 6:59 AM
Post #69 of 115 (1125 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys
>the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's an issue but not a likely one. I have only seen that scenario happen once and while it pulled the cutaway cable out, it did NOT pull it far enough to disconnect the riser.

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM

Pirate

I really think the message here with this vid is we need to focus on proper exit procedure...and it's a miracle that the canopy slid off the tail as it did!
C


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:00 PM
Post #70 of 115 (1078 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys
>the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's an issue but not a likely one. I have only seen that scenario happen once and while it pulled the cutaway cable out, it did NOT pull it far enough to disconnect the riser.

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM

Pirate



The Collins lanyard is seperated from the RSL lanyard at the top by about 6 inches, near the top of the riser cover area, under the reserve risers. While I'll generally concede that the skyhook and RSL lanyards/ reserve pin can be pulled in such a disaster as this vid shows. The Collins lanyard would be near impossible to grab and in fact being anchored so to speak by the main right riser wouldn't release the right main riser in any situation except if the RSL was in place and disconnected!!!!

Dear skydiverek (Barteck (Spelling),)?

Anyways this vid needs its own thread/post.
Two perspectives,...first: what do I tell a student after he/she see's this???

Second: that is a fucking totally awsome piece of shit in the air!!!!! I ONLY HOPE I COULD RESPOND AS WELL AS THEY DID UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

This illustrates perfectly what a small kink in the chain of events...does down the road....CAN ANYONE SAY: "PASS THE DUCT TAPE???"

Or perhaps we should outfit all exit doors with fish hooks, just to make things more interesting???
C


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jan 8, 2013, 1:46 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 8, 2013, 6:20 PM
Post #71 of 115 (1022 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system

Because several things have to happen in sequence to insure proper operation
Because one component relies upon absolute physical orientation to operate correctly
Because there are ways to cause a failure of a working main parachute system through a failure of the Skyhook

Not really directed at Billvon:

There's also the possibility of the skyhook lanyard being misrouted and potentially locking your reserve in the container. I did a version of that on my rig and it was exactly what an incident said it would be.

I posted the test somewhere in G&R I believe.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 14, 2013, 8:48 AM
Post #72 of 115 (890 views)
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Re: [airdvr] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown

TOO EARLY TO TELL BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS, BUT HERE IS ANOTHER:

Skydiver, 56, dies after parachute fails to open during jump at Scottish airfield

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257856/Strathallan-Airfield-Skydiver-56-dies-parachute-fails-open-jump.html#ixzz2Hy7roMnA

In reply to:
3 friends who most likely would still be here had they had an RSL. More important than an AAD IMHO.

"However, the reserve parachute had not been pulled and investigators are probing whether the victim was too close to the ground by that stage for it to open and slow his fall efficiently."

Anyone know more?
C


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 14, 2013, 7:37 PM
Post #73 of 115 (827 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey folks,

I'm interested in your opinions on whether it is safer to have an RSL or not.

On my one and only cutaway it was comforting to have my reserve out before I'd even pulled it, but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

I can imagine situations where it is both life saving to have RSL (e.g. one arm broken or restricted making it difficult to pull reserve), but also situations where it makes it more dangerous (deploy while unstable after cutaway, being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL)

Thoughts?

If you've got enough time to deploy in a 2 stage process rather than use RSL or Skyhook can't you just disconnect the RSL before chopping? If you don't have enough time to do this then wouldn't you probably be too low and better off taking your chances with the RSL? I am however new with fuck all jumps and completely clueless, this is just my understanding. Personally I use what ever the CI at my DZ tells me to. They have RSLs on all hire gear and their new gear has skyhooks. Local DZ rules require an RSL or skyhook + AAD fitted until a D license.


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jan 14, 2013, 8:09 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 14, 2013, 8:26 PM
Post #74 of 115 (812 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you've got enough time to deploy in a 2 stage process rather than use RSL or Skyhook...
Yes your newbiness is showing. Trev, you are indicating that what you are going to do is cutaway and let the RSL/Skyhook take care of getting the reserve out.

WRONG WRONG WRONG idea!
You will ALWAYS pull your reserve handle regardless of RSL/Skyhook. Cutaway handle followed by reserve deployment handle...in that order. You train yourself to do this. Why? Because having those back-up safety devices does not guarantee that they are going to work. How much altitude do you want to burn before you figure out, "Oooops the RSL/Skyhook didn't work. I'd better go ahead and pull the reserve deployment handle."

We don't EVER depend on a back-up safety device to save our butts.



In reply to:
can't you just disconnect the RSL before chopping?
Yes. But NO. Why have one if you are going to disconnect it at a time when you need it?

In reply to:
If you don't have enough time to do this then wouldn't you probably be too low and better off taking your chances with the RSL?
Two things here.
-Here again it seems as though you are using the RSL as a primary means of reserve deployment. Nope. See above.
-Time/Altitude. Can you relate time to altitude? Which is more important?
How much time do you have to handle any particular malfunction? No viable way in the world to tell.
How much altitude do you have to handle any particular malfunction? Look at your altimeter.
Simple as that.
Altitude awareness is a must ...especially at EP time.


In reply to:
Personally I use what ever the CI at my DZ tells me to.
Yep. There will come a time when you will be making decisions for yourself. It would be a good idea to learn as much as possible so tht when the time comes, you'll be able to make wise decisiona.

In reply to:
They have RSLs on all hire gear and their new gear has skyhooks. Local DZ rules require an RSL or skyhook + AAD fitted until a D license.
Why do you suppose that is? Because it's typically students and young jumpers who are using that gear and they cannot be trusted to handle EPs properly...hence the back-up safety device. Not only that, but for you for now, it's best practices to have one or he other.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 14, 2013, 8:37 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 14, 2013, 8:42 PM
Post #75 of 115 (798 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you've got enough time to deploy in a 2 stage process rather than use RSL or
>Skyhook can't you just disconnect the RSL before chopping?

Sure you could. It would make as much sense as turning your AAD off just as you hit terminal.

The RSL is there to ensure that your reserve pin gets pulled after you cut away. If you disconnect it before cutting away you might as well not have it. Indeed, it might just kill you - the extra time it takes to locate the RSL and disconnect it might just put you cutting away at 100 feet.

(And no, you can't "only disconnect it when you are high enough." It you train to do it you will do it; if you don't train to do it you won't.)


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