Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
To RSL or not to RSL

 

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theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:45 AM
Post #26 of 115 (2516 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's say I noticed this mistake. Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my reserve pin to reroute my RSL?

(not busting your balls here)

If one of my customers noticed that I routed their RSL incorrectly, I fully expect them to put the rig on, facing away from me, and pop that Mirage reserve PC directly in my face. I'd deserve it. Unimpressed


Guys: it is a great idea to go over your rig with a rigger, I've had a few people learn plenty of stuff they didn't even know they didn't know about. If you find a mistake in their rigging (we are all human afterall) bring it up to their attention. Any rigger worth their certificate will fix the problem ASAP because they have pride in their work.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:49 AM
Post #27 of 115 (2513 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's great that I am trying to share with everyone here that I learned something about a simple but dangerous mistake that a RIGGER made and yet all you guys want to do is take the piss out of me.

Seriously pull your fucking head in.

I'm not sure what 'pull your fucking head in' means, but I'm guessing it's not complimentary.

I only did the same thing you did. You noticed an unsafe situation, and pointed it out for the benefit of the community. The unsafe situation I noticed was your attitude that knowing the proper configuration of the RSL was the riggers 'business', and as you were not a rigger, you were not expected to know that.

Quote:
Let's say I noticed this mistake. Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my reserve pin to reroute my RSL?

You are allowed to pull your reserve handle if you wish. If you notice your rig is unsafe to jump, that's a good way to prevent it from being jumped.

However, if you're in the vicinity of the rigger who packed it, you're better off not pulling the pin as that rigger can more easily remedy the situation if the rig is brought back intact.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:57 AM
Post #28 of 115 (2507 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

+1 mate
The last repack was one of the very few I haven't sat and watched my rigger do the repack. It's a great way to learn about how your gear really works.

Getting back to the origional discussion. I agree that if you don't have a very good specific reason for not having an RSL then they are the way to go, but as I learned today its also REALLY important to understand fully how your gear works. I just jumped a rig for 6 months that could have possible cause some problems during a cutaway.
Lesson learned. I thought I knew a lot about how my gear works, and I still think I know more than most fun jumpers around my experience level. Just goes to show you can never stop learning in this sport.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Dec 20, 2012, 5:02 AM
Post #29 of 115 (2497 views)
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Re: [davelepka] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I only did the same thing you did. You noticed an unsafe situation, and pointed it out for the benefit of the community. The unsafe situation I noticed was your attitude that knowing the proper configuration of the RSL was the riggers 'business', and as you were not a rigger, you were not expected to know that.

I understand what you are saying, and trust me I have learned a lot today, mostly because I took the time to watch my repack. Like i said this error occurred where the RSL lanyard comes out of the reserve flaps. Had this error not occurred I doubt it would have been pointed out to me while I was watching a normal repack.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Dec 20, 2012, 6:03 AM
Post #30 of 115 (2472 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

3 friends who most likely would still be here had they had an RSL. More important than an AAD IMHO.


koppel  (F License)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #31 of 115 (2419 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And you missed it doing gear/pin checks for so many months...?

I could show you a couple of ways that it can be done that can be difficult for even e perienced jumpers to notice let alone pups who are taught to trust their omnipotent all knowing rigger.

As for comments about the manual.. pfffft! Most manuals are vague and blurry at best. Your average joe blow will not be able to identify the error from the manual. Show me the pictures from the Mirage manual that gander should have used to recognise the error. People say read the manual all the time but how many actually do?!

Hell some manuals even have information about other manufacturers components that is mis leading and incorrect!

I do appreciate that a coupe of manufacturers have seen fit to upgrade their manuals this decade to concise, clear and accurate compared to some of the older styles out there.


Deyan  (D 322)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:31 PM
Post #32 of 115 (2411 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Funny thing. I'm sitting here at my riggers house getting my repack done, reading this thread this morning.
He calls me in to have a look at my misrouted rsl on my mirage G4. It was misrouted under the reserve flap causing a 180 in pull force from the rsl lanyard to the reserve rip cord.
It took 20kg of pull force to pull the reserve ripcord while misrouted and 6kg of pull force when routed correctly.

Can you please make a picture of this? I'm having a hard time understanding how it was misrouted. And if you can make a picture of how it's packed now it would be great.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2012, 1:36 PM
Post #33 of 115 (2405 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>Let's say I noticed this mistake. Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my
>reserve pin to reroute my RSL?

You are allowed to do both. If you open the reserve you will need a rigger to reclose it though. In general RSL misroutings can be fixed without pulling the pin.


danornan  (D 11308)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:46 PM
Post #34 of 115 (2400 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not a rigger, but at least on a Javelin, the RSL, which I highly recommend, is pretty easy to check. The manual is not easy to see or understand. IMHO, for the average skydiver, the manual is just a start and hands on education is needed.


Ron

Dec 28, 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #35 of 115 (2240 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm interested in your opinions on whether it is safer to have an RSL or not.

Statistically safer to have one than not have one.

Quote:
deploy while unstable after cutaway

This is an issue, and it has lead to incidents.... But FAR fewer than no pulls. Again, the statistics show you are much safer with an RSL.

Quote:
being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL

Not going to happen. If it were that windy out.... You would not be jumping. I have seen guys test this theory, the reserve pilot chute launches but does not pull the freebag off of the reserve.

I always tell people to have one till they have had a cutaway and puled both handles... After that, they can make up their own mind.

Me, I don't have an RSL unless I am jumping Tandem. I do not like them, but I have had several malfunctions without issue. Statistically, I would be safer with one.

What I don't like is how some people consider them a fool proof device... that is not true and they have caused problems (again, statistically you are safer with one).

But I like people to know that they have real risks.

The biggest problem is how some people rely on them. TK Hayes had a tandem mal and did not pull the reserve handle because he knew the RSL would work.... Except, it was not hooked up and he had a CYPRES fire. This line of thinking is dangerous.


Iago  (D License)

Dec 28, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #36 of 115 (2224 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey folks,

I'm interested in your opinions on whether it is safer to have an RSL or not.

On my one and only cutaway it was comforting to have my reserve out before I'd even pulled it, but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

I can imagine situations where it is both life saving to have RSL (e.g. one arm broken or restricted making it difficult to pull reserve), but also situations where it makes it more dangerous (deploy while unstable after cutaway, being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL)

Thoughts?

Trading altitude for stability is a very, very, bad idea.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Dec 28, 2012, 4:17 PM
Post #37 of 115 (2162 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

 Personally, I have never had an RSL on my personal rig until 2 years ago. I have had severval cutaways on tandems and have always had the RSL connected. I had around 2500 total jumps before my first personal rig cutaway. It was with a wingsuit and I was jumping a VX109 loaded 2.3 to 1. Once under canopy I started to spin and I knew I had to get rid of it so cutaway and pulled the reserve. My opinion for not having a RSL is I wanted to get stable before puling the reserve: however in pratice I did not wait to get stable. The more I thought about it the more an RSL made sense for me since my own emergency proceedures I did not include time for getting stable after cutting away then I might as well have an RSL. For me it is not a must have just something I can not argue against having.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Dec 28, 2012, 4:50 PM
Post #38 of 115 (2145 views)
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To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

My new (to me) container is an older Mirage and doesn't have an RSL. Can a master (or senior?) rigger make modifications to the container and "add" an RSL? Or is that something that only the manufacturer can do?


craigbey  (C 31991)

Dec 28, 2012, 4:52 PM
Post #39 of 115 (2141 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It was with a wingsuit and I was jumping a VX109 loaded 2.3 to 1

Sporty!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 28, 2012, 5:07 PM
Post #40 of 115 (2131 views)
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Re: [Ron] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The biggest problem is how some people rely on them. TK Hayes had a tandem mal and did not pull the reserve handle because he knew the RSL would work.... Except, it was not hooked up and he had a CYPRES fire. This line of thinking is dangerous.

Classic.Unsure


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Dec 28, 2012, 5:09 PM
Post #41 of 115 (2143 views)
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Re: [hokierower] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My new (to me) container is an older Mirage and doesn't have an RSL. Can a master (or senior?) rigger make modifications to the container and "add" an RSL? Or is that something that only the manufacturer can do?

Modifications are Master Rigger tasks.

If Mirage has an approved procedure, any competent MR could do it.

I took a quick look at Mirage's site, and didn't find anything on it (although it may be there and I missed it). Depending on how involved it is, I'd be most comfortable having the guys that built the thing in the first place be the ones doing the work.

YMMV Smile


hokierower  (B 36150)

Dec 30, 2012, 8:28 AM
Post #42 of 115 (2064 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My new (to me) container is an older Mirage and doesn't have an RSL. Can a master (or senior?) rigger make modifications to the container and "add" an RSL? Or is that something that only the manufacturer can do?

Modifications are Master Rigger tasks.

If Mirage has an approved procedure, any competent MR could do it.

I took a quick look at Mirage's site, and didn't find anything on it (although it may be there and I missed it). Depending on how involved it is, I'd be most comfortable having the guys that built the thing in the first place be the ones doing the work.

YMMV Smile
I would agree 100%. I'll look into it but thanks for the answer about the MR question.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 30, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #43 of 115 (2051 views)
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Re: [Iago] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Trading altitude for stability is a very, very, bad idea.
In certain circumstances yes it is, but not always in every case.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 31, 2012, 10:18 AM
Post #44 of 115 (1924 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

my $0.02


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 1, 2013, 2:35 PM
Post #45 of 115 (1817 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

Stability is a luxury in a cutaway scenario. Getting your reserve open quickly is mandatory.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 1, 2013, 7:31 PM
Post #46 of 115 (1756 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Go with the rsl. 'We' tend to screw up more often than the requirement does.


gregpso  (Student)

Jan 3, 2013, 11:01 PM
Post #47 of 115 (1604 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.


rifleman  (Student)

Jan 4, 2013, 3:01 AM
Post #48 of 115 (1582 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because it's older technology doesn't mean that it won't do the job. I can't fit a skyhook to my rig as it's a TSE Teardrop and the RSL runs from the shackle point on the left riser down to the point where the reserve cable enters the housing just above the reserve handle.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 6:32 AM
Post #49 of 115 (1555 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology

So are RAM air parachutes.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:26 AM
Post #50 of 115 (1509 views)
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Re: [Remster] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology

So are RAM air parachutes.

And piston aircraft.

Come to think of it. How old is the otter design?


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