Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
To RSL or not to RSL

 


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Dec 14, 2012, 6:23 PM
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To RSL or not to RSL Can't Post

Hey folks,

I'm interested in your opinions on whether it is safer to have an RSL or not.

On my one and only cutaway it was comforting to have my reserve out before I'd even pulled it, but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

I can imagine situations where it is both life saving to have RSL (e.g. one arm broken or restricted making it difficult to pull reserve), but also situations where it makes it more dangerous (deploy while unstable after cutaway, being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL)

Thoughts?


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Dec 14, 2012, 7:17 PM
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lots has been said on this already

http://www.dropzone.com/...p;sb=score&mh=25


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 14, 2012, 8:36 PM
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In reply to:
Hey folks,

I'm interested in your opinions on whether it is safer to have an RSL or not.

On my one and only cutaway it was comforting to have my reserve out before I'd even pulled it, but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

I can imagine situations where it is both life saving to have RSL (e.g. one arm broken or restricted making it difficult to pull reserve), but also situations where it makes it more dangerous (deploy while unstable after cutaway, being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL)

Thoughts?

You can imagine all you want, but history tells the tale.

There are very, very few situations where a standard single side RSL has contributed to a fatal outcome in the last 30 years.

On the other hand there is probably a 6 person a year average of people who cutaway and never deploy a reserve, or don't deploy a reserve in time to save themselves who would have been helped by the use of an RSL.

With the exception of CRW, there is no good reason for a modern skydiver not to utilize an RSL.

Post breakaway the safest opportunity to deploy a reserve is the moment the risers of the main release and are clear, or the same time the RSL would pull the reserve pin. The safest orientation to deploy a reserve is NOT belly to earth, but rather feet into the relative wind with the relative wind moving across the back of the jumper to prevent a burble and thus speed the reserve pilot chute deployment.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Dec 14, 2012, 8:44 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Dec 14, 2012, 8:40 PM
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For regular sport skydiving the statistics heavily favor having a RSL.


SStewart  (D 10405)

Dec 14, 2012, 9:13 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

My barometer has always been this, if you have to ask and you don't really know what is best for you then you should have an RSL hooked up and rigged properly on every jump.

Personally I have 3 rigs all equiped with Cypres and no RSL


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 14, 2012, 11:56 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Have an RSL. You are likely too young to remember why we put them there in the first place. They save lives every year.

Or a Skyhook, same difference for the most part.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Dec 15, 2012, 12:30 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

When RSL were first introduced it was done by Perry Stevens for conventional gear with a chest reserve. It was called a “Stevens System”. The main risers had dual (one on the front and one on the rear) cross connectors at the junction of the lines to the risers. Note: Cross connectors were required on any jump made by US Navy personnel, if a cutaway was planned. The right main riser had attached to its base a lanyard which had to be hooked up on every jump to the chest reserve ripcord as that was the ripcord pull connection. This configuration was almost guaranteed to knock some teeth out when used. That reserve ripcord handle, which usually had and AAD firing mechanism on it was heavy and if it hit you on the way by it hurt.
Piggy backs came out and the Stevens system was adapted cross connectors and all. A couple of early ones had the dual cross connectors but they would catch on the bottom of the reserve pack and hang up. The Navy had one hang up after a cutaway and it jammed the reserve so that only the PC came out. He landed hanging by the cross connectors of the malfunctioned main. Broke his wrist. Its all on video. Happened at El Centro in the 60’s.
Well cross connectors were no good at the end of the risers on a piggy back so most of the manufacturers just did away with them. Except the Racer, where they kept the original concept by moving the cross connector to the base of the risers, where it also acts as pull lanyard. Other manufacturers have developed other methods, for a complete explanation see:http://www.jumpshack.com/...SL&SortBy=DATE_D
and follow the links to more information.
Then you will be equiped to make a decission.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 15, 2012, 5:11 AM
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In reply to:
On my one and only cutaway it was comforting to have my reserve out before I'd even pulled it, but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

There's much debate over this issue. The competing school of thought is that getting classically "stable" after a cutaway creates a burble that can hesitate your pilot chute (aside from taking more time=altitude), and that it's better to present feet-down to the relative wind, so the wind will flow across your back and launch your pilot chute immediately.

Unimpressed Usually. Wink


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Dec 15, 2012, 5:13 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 15, 2012, 5:25 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
On my one and only cutaway it was comforting to have my reserve out before I'd even pulled it, but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

So how did your reserve deploy? A dozen line twists? With you upside down with a foot tangled in the lines? With a riser wrapped around your neck?

My guess is that it opened just fine. Stick with the RSL. Unless you can think of a very good reason not to have one, you should have one. When I say 'very good reason', I mean one where if you told the chief instructor at your DZ, he (she) would agree with you and tell you not to jump an RSL. Short of that, stick with the RSL.


Deyan  (D 322)

Dec 15, 2012, 6:09 AM
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In reply to:
but also situations where it makes it more dangerous (deploy while unstable after cutaway, being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL)

Thoughts?

This is probably one of the oldest myths in skydiving, that if you cutaway your main on the ground on a windy day and you forget to release your RSL, your reserve will open and will start dragging you.......

The truth is that the only thing that would happen then is make your rigger happy/unhappy. I've seen about a dozen occasions when a student didn't disconnect his RSL prior a ground cutaway , and in more that half of them the freebag stayed in the container.

The only thing that worries me ( not really ) about the single sided RSL is broken risers. In my almost 15 years in skydiving I've seen only 2 broken risers ( type 17 ). Both times the risers were way beyond 1000 jumps,and the jumpers were heavy .

Remember, hitting the ground with some twist on your reserve is better than with your reserve still in the freebag. The first situation might be survivable Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 15, 2012, 10:57 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

With the exception of CRW, there is no good reason for a modern skydiver not to utilize an RSL.

Camera flyers may have some input on that???


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 15, 2012, 11:18 AM
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I have more than 2000 video jumps and I've come to believe that even they would be better off with an RSL these days.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Dec 15, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

With the exception of CRW, there is no good reason for a modern skydiver not to utilize an RSL.

Camera flyers may have some input on that???

Discussion in the camera/photography forum
As a camera flyer and wingsuiter, I'm a fan of RSL's.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Dec 15, 2012, 3:20 PM
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Re: [JohnSherman] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi John,

Quote:
This configuration was almost guaranteed to knock some teeth out when used.

The first documented use of a Stevens Lanyard was about '65-'66, a student. He did not lose any teeth but he did have a serious black eye.

Quote:
Piggy backs came out and the Stevens system was adapted cross connectors and all.

Security's CrossBow system never used any cross-connector.

You can check with the designer:

Dan Abbott
1800 Stone Cress Court
Ceres, CA 95307
Ph: 209-537-0422
dansanabbott(at)yahoo(dot)com

JerryBaumchen


(This post was edited by JerryBaumchen on Dec 15, 2012, 3:21 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Dec 15, 2012, 3:45 PM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I would disconnect the Steven's line on the way up in the plane because I didn't want the thing to hit me. My instructors never noticed! Shocked


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Dec 19, 2012, 9:28 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have more than 2000 video jumps and I've come to believe that even they would be better off with an RSL these days.

I have more than 1200 video jumps and use my rsl and Skyhook on every jump - video or not.

.


hcsvader  (D 4975)

Dec 19, 2012, 11:12 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Funny thing. I'm sitting here at my riggers house getting my repack done, reading this thread this morning.
He calls me in to have a look at my misrouted rsl on my mirage G4. It was misrouted under the reserve flap causing a 180 in pull force from the rsl lanyard to the reserve rip cord.
It took 20kg of pull force to pull the reserve ripcord while misrouted and 6kg of pull force when routed correctly.


skydiverek  (C 952)

Dec 20, 2012, 12:54 AM
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Funny thing. I'm sitting here at my riggers house getting my repack done, reading this thread this morning.
He calls me in to have a look at my misrouted rsl on my mirage G4. It was misrouted under the reserve flap causing a 180 in pull force from the rsl lanyard to the reserve rip cord.
It took 20kg of pull force to pull the reserve ripcord while misrouted and 6kg of pull force when routed correctly.

And you missed it doing gear/pin checks for so many months...?


hcsvader  (D 4975)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:26 AM
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Imm not a rigger and did not know that where the lanyard came out from under the reserve flap was the wrong place for it. The difference between the right and wrong routing is only a few centimeters.


skydiverek  (C 952)

Dec 20, 2012, 3:22 AM
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Imm not a rigger and did not know that where the lanyard came out from under the reserve flap was the wrong place for it. The difference between the right and wrong routing is only a few centimeters.

But you do have a manual with pictures, right?


hcsvader  (D 4975)

Dec 20, 2012, 3:56 AM
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

No actually I don't. I honestly didn't know any better. I've been jumping a possible death rig for the last 6 months and had no idea.
Guess I'd better get my riggers rating because apparently I can't trust them.
Will start a new thread when I get to a computer and can post some pics explaining the minor difference.

Or would you rather everyone just read the manual and figure it out for themselves?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:15 AM
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Imm not a rigger and did not know that where the lanyard came out from under the reserve flap was the wrong place

You don't need to be a rigger to know how your rig works. Nobody is suggesting that you should have done repairs to your harness, or repacked your own reserve, just that you should take the time to educate yourself about the specific rig you are jumping.

When you purchase your own gear, it's a great idea to be present during the first inspection and repack, and have your rigger go over the various components and operation of the whole thing.

Being a rigger means that you know more about every rig, and how to diagnose, repair, and repack them. It has nothing to do with the user being familiar with the correct assembly and operation of the rig they own/are jumping.

Think about your car, you know what the engine is supposed to sound like and how it's supposed to work. If you got it one day, and it was making a different noise or not producing the same HP as before, it's expected that you would notice that. It's not expected that you would know why, or how to fix it, that's the job for a mechanic and you're not a mechanic (I don't think), but it would be unreasonable if you just drove it around that way until your next oil change and the mechanic had to point it out to you.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 20, 2012, 4:16 AM)


skydiverek  (C 952)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:24 AM
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"But you do have a manual with pictures, right?"

No actually I don't.

I can see that you are a Jumpmaster and USPA coach... Here is the manual Unimpressed:

http://miragesys.com/...4ContainerManual.pdf


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Dec 20, 2012, 5:13 AM)


hcsvader  (D 4975)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:27 AM
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Re: [davelepka] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Tis is true.
I think I know an awful lot more about my rig than most people do and I definatley learned something new today.

How many people do you know that would be able to take their RSL and fully instal it?

It's great that I am trying to share with everyone here that I learned something about a simple but dangerous mistake that a RIGGER made and yet all you guys want to do is take the piss out of me.

Seriously pull your fucking head in.

Let's say I noticed this mistake. Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my reserve pin to reroute my RSL?


hcsvader  (D 4975)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:34 AM
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Think I know a rigger who needs it more than I do.

Love how everyone says to trust your rigger, then give me shit for not knowing.

So is a RSL part of the reserve system? I was in the reserve category of the manual.

Edit to add

Quote:
can see that you are a Jumpmaster and USPA coach
Will gladly update my profile and remove those ratings as I haven't been current in them for 3 years.


(This post was edited by hcsvader on Dec 20, 2012, 4:41 AM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:45 AM
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's say I noticed this mistake. Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my reserve pin to reroute my RSL?

(not busting your balls here)

If one of my customers noticed that I routed their RSL incorrectly, I fully expect them to put the rig on, facing away from me, and pop that Mirage reserve PC directly in my face. I'd deserve it. Unimpressed


Guys: it is a great idea to go over your rig with a rigger, I've had a few people learn plenty of stuff they didn't even know they didn't know about. If you find a mistake in their rigging (we are all human afterall) bring it up to their attention. Any rigger worth their certificate will fix the problem ASAP because they have pride in their work.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:49 AM
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's great that I am trying to share with everyone here that I learned something about a simple but dangerous mistake that a RIGGER made and yet all you guys want to do is take the piss out of me.

Seriously pull your fucking head in.

I'm not sure what 'pull your fucking head in' means, but I'm guessing it's not complimentary.

I only did the same thing you did. You noticed an unsafe situation, and pointed it out for the benefit of the community. The unsafe situation I noticed was your attitude that knowing the proper configuration of the RSL was the riggers 'business', and as you were not a rigger, you were not expected to know that.

Quote:
Let's say I noticed this mistake. Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my reserve pin to reroute my RSL?

You are allowed to pull your reserve handle if you wish. If you notice your rig is unsafe to jump, that's a good way to prevent it from being jumped.

However, if you're in the vicinity of the rigger who packed it, you're better off not pulling the pin as that rigger can more easily remedy the situation if the rig is brought back intact.


hcsvader  (D 4975)

Dec 20, 2012, 4:57 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

+1 mate
The last repack was one of the very few I haven't sat and watched my rigger do the repack. It's a great way to learn about how your gear really works.

Getting back to the origional discussion. I agree that if you don't have a very good specific reason for not having an RSL then they are the way to go, but as I learned today its also REALLY important to understand fully how your gear works. I just jumped a rig for 6 months that could have possible cause some problems during a cutaway.
Lesson learned. I thought I knew a lot about how my gear works, and I still think I know more than most fun jumpers around my experience level. Just goes to show you can never stop learning in this sport.


hcsvader  (D 4975)

Dec 20, 2012, 5:02 AM
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Re: [davelepka] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I only did the same thing you did. You noticed an unsafe situation, and pointed it out for the benefit of the community. The unsafe situation I noticed was your attitude that knowing the proper configuration of the RSL was the riggers 'business', and as you were not a rigger, you were not expected to know that.

I understand what you are saying, and trust me I have learned a lot today, mostly because I took the time to watch my repack. Like i said this error occurred where the RSL lanyard comes out of the reserve flaps. Had this error not occurred I doubt it would have been pointed out to me while I was watching a normal repack.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Dec 20, 2012, 6:03 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

3 friends who most likely would still be here had they had an RSL. More important than an AAD IMHO.


koppel  (F License)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:12 PM
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And you missed it doing gear/pin checks for so many months...?

I could show you a couple of ways that it can be done that can be difficult for even e perienced jumpers to notice let alone pups who are taught to trust their omnipotent all knowing rigger.

As for comments about the manual.. pfffft! Most manuals are vague and blurry at best. Your average joe blow will not be able to identify the error from the manual. Show me the pictures from the Mirage manual that gander should have used to recognise the error. People say read the manual all the time but how many actually do?!

Hell some manuals even have information about other manufacturers components that is mis leading and incorrect!

I do appreciate that a coupe of manufacturers have seen fit to upgrade their manuals this decade to concise, clear and accurate compared to some of the older styles out there.


Deyan  (D 322)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:31 PM
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Funny thing. I'm sitting here at my riggers house getting my repack done, reading this thread this morning.
He calls me in to have a look at my misrouted rsl on my mirage G4. It was misrouted under the reserve flap causing a 180 in pull force from the rsl lanyard to the reserve rip cord.
It took 20kg of pull force to pull the reserve ripcord while misrouted and 6kg of pull force when routed correctly.

Can you please make a picture of this? I'm having a hard time understanding how it was misrouted. And if you can make a picture of how it's packed now it would be great.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2012, 1:36 PM
Post #33 of 115 (2269 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>Let's say I noticed this mistake. Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my
>reserve pin to reroute my RSL?

You are allowed to do both. If you open the reserve you will need a rigger to reclose it though. In general RSL misroutings can be fixed without pulling the pin.


danornan  (D 11308)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:46 PM
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not a rigger, but at least on a Javelin, the RSL, which I highly recommend, is pretty easy to check. The manual is not easy to see or understand. IMHO, for the average skydiver, the manual is just a start and hands on education is needed.


Ron

Dec 28, 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #35 of 115 (2104 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm interested in your opinions on whether it is safer to have an RSL or not.

Statistically safer to have one than not have one.

Quote:
deploy while unstable after cutaway

This is an issue, and it has lead to incidents.... But FAR fewer than no pulls. Again, the statistics show you are much safer with an RSL.

Quote:
being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL

Not going to happen. If it were that windy out.... You would not be jumping. I have seen guys test this theory, the reserve pilot chute launches but does not pull the freebag off of the reserve.

I always tell people to have one till they have had a cutaway and puled both handles... After that, they can make up their own mind.

Me, I don't have an RSL unless I am jumping Tandem. I do not like them, but I have had several malfunctions without issue. Statistically, I would be safer with one.

What I don't like is how some people consider them a fool proof device... that is not true and they have caused problems (again, statistically you are safer with one).

But I like people to know that they have real risks.

The biggest problem is how some people rely on them. TK Hayes had a tandem mal and did not pull the reserve handle because he knew the RSL would work.... Except, it was not hooked up and he had a CYPRES fire. This line of thinking is dangerous.


Iago  (D License)

Dec 28, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #36 of 115 (2088 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey folks,

I'm interested in your opinions on whether it is safer to have an RSL or not.

On my one and only cutaway it was comforting to have my reserve out before I'd even pulled it, but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

I can imagine situations where it is both life saving to have RSL (e.g. one arm broken or restricted making it difficult to pull reserve), but also situations where it makes it more dangerous (deploy while unstable after cutaway, being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL)

Thoughts?

Trading altitude for stability is a very, very, bad idea.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Dec 28, 2012, 4:17 PM
Post #37 of 115 (2026 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

 Personally, I have never had an RSL on my personal rig until 2 years ago. I have had severval cutaways on tandems and have always had the RSL connected. I had around 2500 total jumps before my first personal rig cutaway. It was with a wingsuit and I was jumping a VX109 loaded 2.3 to 1. Once under canopy I started to spin and I knew I had to get rid of it so cutaway and pulled the reserve. My opinion for not having a RSL is I wanted to get stable before puling the reserve: however in pratice I did not wait to get stable. The more I thought about it the more an RSL made sense for me since my own emergency proceedures I did not include time for getting stable after cutting away then I might as well have an RSL. For me it is not a must have just something I can not argue against having.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Dec 28, 2012, 4:50 PM
Post #38 of 115 (2009 views)
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To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

My new (to me) container is an older Mirage and doesn't have an RSL. Can a master (or senior?) rigger make modifications to the container and "add" an RSL? Or is that something that only the manufacturer can do?


craigbey  (C 31991)

Dec 28, 2012, 4:52 PM
Post #39 of 115 (2005 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It was with a wingsuit and I was jumping a VX109 loaded 2.3 to 1

Sporty!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 28, 2012, 5:07 PM
Post #40 of 115 (1995 views)
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Re: [Ron] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The biggest problem is how some people rely on them. TK Hayes had a tandem mal and did not pull the reserve handle because he knew the RSL would work.... Except, it was not hooked up and he had a CYPRES fire. This line of thinking is dangerous.

Classic.Unsure


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Dec 28, 2012, 5:09 PM
Post #41 of 115 (2007 views)
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Re: [hokierower] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My new (to me) container is an older Mirage and doesn't have an RSL. Can a master (or senior?) rigger make modifications to the container and "add" an RSL? Or is that something that only the manufacturer can do?

Modifications are Master Rigger tasks.

If Mirage has an approved procedure, any competent MR could do it.

I took a quick look at Mirage's site, and didn't find anything on it (although it may be there and I missed it). Depending on how involved it is, I'd be most comfortable having the guys that built the thing in the first place be the ones doing the work.

YMMV Smile


hokierower  (B 36150)

Dec 30, 2012, 8:28 AM
Post #42 of 115 (1928 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My new (to me) container is an older Mirage and doesn't have an RSL. Can a master (or senior?) rigger make modifications to the container and "add" an RSL? Or is that something that only the manufacturer can do?

Modifications are Master Rigger tasks.

If Mirage has an approved procedure, any competent MR could do it.

I took a quick look at Mirage's site, and didn't find anything on it (although it may be there and I missed it). Depending on how involved it is, I'd be most comfortable having the guys that built the thing in the first place be the ones doing the work.

YMMV Smile
I would agree 100%. I'll look into it but thanks for the answer about the MR question.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 30, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #43 of 115 (1915 views)
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Re: [Iago] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Trading altitude for stability is a very, very, bad idea.
In certain circumstances yes it is, but not always in every case.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Dec 31, 2012, 10:18 AM
Post #44 of 115 (1788 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

my $0.02


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 1, 2013, 2:35 PM
Post #45 of 115 (1681 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

Stability is a luxury in a cutaway scenario. Getting your reserve open quickly is mandatory.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 1, 2013, 7:31 PM
Post #46 of 115 (1620 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Go with the rsl. 'We' tend to screw up more often than the requirement does.


gregpso  (Student)

Jan 3, 2013, 11:01 PM
Post #47 of 115 (1468 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.


rifleman  (Student)

Jan 4, 2013, 3:01 AM
Post #48 of 115 (1446 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because it's older technology doesn't mean that it won't do the job. I can't fit a skyhook to my rig as it's a TSE Teardrop and the RSL runs from the shackle point on the left riser down to the point where the reserve cable enters the housing just above the reserve handle.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 6:32 AM
Post #49 of 115 (1419 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology

So are RAM air parachutes.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:26 AM
Post #50 of 115 (1373 views)
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Re: [Remster] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology

So are RAM air parachutes.

And piston aircraft.

Come to think of it. How old is the otter design?


danornan  (D 11308)

Jan 5, 2013, 5:06 AM
Post #51 of 115 (1490 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

Have an RSL installed while you do your research. It is simple, easily installed and works better than not for the average skydiver. RSL vs Skyhook is still very debatable. By the way, most of us are average.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 3:15 PM
Post #52 of 115 (1411 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

My rig has a new skyhook in it,...

AND now I lay awake nights THINKING,...that If ever I pull my reserve I have a piece of "new Tech" that in order to save my ass, it has to release???

(For the reserve pilot chute to fully deploy)

I gave my life to Bill B. and John S. a long time ago, about the only thing these two agree upon is that a RSL is a good idea. And I trust them!


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 6, 2013, 4:10 PM
Post #53 of 115 (1394 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

My rig has a new skyhook in it,...

AND now I lay awake nights THINKING,...that If ever I pull my reserve I have a piece of "new Tech" that in order to save my ass, it has to release???

(For the reserve pilot chute to fully deploy)

I gave my life to Bill B. and John S. a long time ago, about the only thing these two agree upon is that a RSL is a good idea. And I trust them!

And bear in mind a guy with 66 jumps on student status is probably not the best source of information!


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:02 PM
Post #54 of 115 (1379 views)
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Re: [nigel99] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I try to listen intently to the students because:
No question on the ground is stupid, it promotes discussion and in-fact this discussion promotes safety.

I also listen because this tells me a little about their training, who taught them so to speak...

Some discussions have a basis in fact, and many discussions are unintentional misquotes or misunderstandings...

Some of the way things are, are because of hard decisions,...The simple facts are we have a bunch of cutaway pulls ridden down to the ground,...and these are well documented! We do not have a pile of RSL incidents, that are well documented. There simply isn't a lot of individuals walking around today stating: "thank god my rsl wasn't connected,...if that thing was connected I wouldn't be here."

The whole RSL debate may in fact be a "Hard Decision." Thank God for all of you guys and nigel99 for pointing this out, In all of our quests to promote each others well being this may end up being one of those personal decisions each of us will have to face.

To Illustrate my point, Bill B. came up with the 3 ring System, it clearly save's lives when compared with the old "one shots," one shots are still in wide use by the way. Ok, so now we have "mini rings," and now we have lots of documented cases of mini ring failure...

Time will tell with some areas of equipment. Other equipment areas are : Hard Decisions.
C

Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:49 PM
Post #55 of 115 (1370 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period

Where is your dz again? Because, I'm going to reserve the right to use (or not to use) my RSL. Smile


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:56 PM
Post #56 of 115 (1364 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period

Where is your dz again? Because, I'm going to reserve the right to use (or not to use) my RSL. Smile

Well as you are still a student with 1500 jumps, maybe its time to take up bowlingLaughLaughAngelicTongue


in2jumping  (C License)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:57 PM
Post #57 of 115 (1363 views)
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Re: [gregpso] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

Standard RSLs are simple proven technology, skyhook is complicated new technology. For me the potential issues and add complexity of the skyhook is not worth the 150' quicker it gets your reserve open in.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jan 6, 2013, 6:07 PM
Post #58 of 115 (1354 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

Standard RSLs are simple proven technology, skyhook is complicated new technology. For me the potential issues and add complexity of the skyhook is not worth the 150' quicker it gets your reserve open in.

I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 6, 2013, 6:11 PM
Post #59 of 115 (1349 views)
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Re: [nigel99] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Additionally, by the way, so there is no misunderstanding...if your a student at my dropzone your rsl is connected,..or you don't jump...period

Where is your dz again? Because, I'm going to reserve the right to use (or not to use) my RSL. Smile

Well as you are still a student with 1500 jumps, maybe its time to take up bowlingLaughLaughAngelicTongue

The bowling leage sent me to the DZ???? TongueHow the hell do you think I got into this sport.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 6, 2013, 6:16 PM
Post #60 of 115 (1344 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least research it.

Standard RSLs are simple proven technology, skyhook is complicated new technology. For me the potential issues and add complexity of the skyhook is not worth the 150' quicker it gets your reserve open in.

I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system

I can't remember the exact formula from reliability theory, but the number of ways that a system can fail is something like the nth power, where n is the number of components involved. So a MARD (Skyhook) with multiple complexities is many times more likely to go wrong than a simpler system.

* Of course, humans are still more stupid than a more complex system, and this needs to be factored in. I am utterly convinced that RSL is better than a human, I'm not so convinced that a MARD is (yet).


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #61 of 115 (1297 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system

Because several things have to happen in sequence to insure proper operation
Because one component relies upon absolute physical orientation to operate correctly
Because there are ways to cause a failure of a working main parachute system through a failure of the Skyhook


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 1:57 PM
Post #62 of 115 (1273 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system

Because several things have to happen in sequence to insure proper operation
Because one component relies upon absolute physical orientation to operate correctly
Because there are ways to cause a failure of a working main parachute system through a failure of the Skyhook

Ok, I have to ask exactly what do you mean with the last comment? How can failure of the skyhook, and please be explicit, cause an issue with a fully functioning main? Angelic
C


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 2:57 PM
Post #63 of 115 (1255 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>How can failure of the skyhook, and please be explicit, cause an issue with a fully
>functioning main?

Specifically if part of a Skyhook gets snagged on something else (another jumper, the doorframe etc) it can cut away one side of your main parachute via the Collins lanyard.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 3:17 PM
Post #64 of 115 (1250 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>How can failure of the skyhook, and please be explicit, cause an issue with a fully
>functioning main?

Specifically if part of a Skyhook gets snagged on something else (another jumper, the doorframe etc) it can cut away one side of your main parachute via the Collins lanyard.

Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....
Complete the sequence, complete the sequence, complete the sequence,...

thanks??? UnsureMadFrown


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 3:28 PM
Post #65 of 115 (1243 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys
>the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's an issue but not a likely one. I have only seen that scenario happen once and while it pulled the cutaway cable out, it did NOT pull it far enough to disconnect the riser.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 4:02 PM
Post #66 of 115 (1228 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

No, you raise a very good point...Yes the RSL on the VIII are fully velcroed in and under the reserve risers..but neverless it is a more complex system! Thanks for the nightmares :)


skydiverek  (C 952)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:46 AM
Post #67 of 115 (1156 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys
>the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's an issue but not a likely one. I have only seen that scenario happen once and while it pulled the cutaway cable out, it did NOT pull it far enough to disconnect the riser.

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM

Pirate


gregpso  (Student)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:53 AM
Post #68 of 115 (1155 views)
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Re: [nigel99] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Standard RSLs are old technology get a skyhook RSL or at least researchit.
My rig has a new skyhookinit,... AND nowI lay awake nights THINKING,...thatIf everI pullmy reserveI have a piece of "new Tech" thatin orderto savemy ass,it hasto release??? (For the reserve pilot chuteto fully deploy) I gave my lifeto Bill B. and John S. a long time ago, about the only thing these two agree uponis that a RSLis a goodidea. AndI trust them!
And bearin mind a guy with 66 jumps on student statusis probably not the best source ofinformation!

Good on you Nigel. I trust what Bill Booth says and I have personally corresponded with him a few times. Supporting the new technology was the beginning of the end of my career at a drop zone I loved (other factors of course) 30 years ago I copped heaps by supporting the coming aads... (no internet of course then)

Now aads are common place MARDS will be on most rigs quite soon. I was right 30 years ago and I am right now !!howeverI am long retired from jumping so why should I care.. but infact I do care and wish you all safe jumping.

Now as the priest said to grass hopper.. after he grabbed the pebble from his hand. "Time for to leave.. so I leave. I can only take so much abuse or emails I stand by my opinions !

Bye !!


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 8, 2013, 6:59 AM
Post #69 of 115 (1096 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys
>the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's an issue but not a likely one. I have only seen that scenario happen once and while it pulled the cutaway cable out, it did NOT pull it far enough to disconnect the riser.

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM

Pirate

I really think the message here with this vid is we need to focus on proper exit procedure...and it's a miracle that the canopy slid off the tail as it did!
C


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:00 PM
Post #70 of 115 (1049 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Holy Shit!!! you catch a skyhook rsl and it disables your main and deploys
>the reserve...you have just given me permenant nightmares....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's an issue but not a likely one. I have only seen that scenario happen once and while it pulled the cutaway cable out, it did NOT pull it far enough to disconnect the riser.

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM

Pirate



The Collins lanyard is seperated from the RSL lanyard at the top by about 6 inches, near the top of the riser cover area, under the reserve risers. While I'll generally concede that the skyhook and RSL lanyards/ reserve pin can be pulled in such a disaster as this vid shows. The Collins lanyard would be near impossible to grab and in fact being anchored so to speak by the main right riser wouldn't release the right main riser in any situation except if the RSL was in place and disconnected!!!!

Dear skydiverek (Barteck (Spelling),)?

Anyways this vid needs its own thread/post.
Two perspectives,...first: what do I tell a student after he/she see's this???

Second: that is a fucking totally awsome piece of shit in the air!!!!! I ONLY HOPE I COULD RESPOND AS WELL AS THEY DID UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

This illustrates perfectly what a small kink in the chain of events...does down the road....CAN ANYONE SAY: "PASS THE DUCT TAPE???"

Or perhaps we should outfit all exit doors with fish hooks, just to make things more interesting???
C


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jan 8, 2013, 1:46 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 8, 2013, 6:20 PM
Post #71 of 115 (993 views)
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Re: [billvon] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I still don't understand how the skyhook is a "complex" system

Because several things have to happen in sequence to insure proper operation
Because one component relies upon absolute physical orientation to operate correctly
Because there are ways to cause a failure of a working main parachute system through a failure of the Skyhook

Not really directed at Billvon:

There's also the possibility of the skyhook lanyard being misrouted and potentially locking your reserve in the container. I did a version of that on my rig and it was exactly what an incident said it would be.

I posted the test somewhere in G&R I believe.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 14, 2013, 8:48 AM
Post #72 of 115 (861 views)
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Re: [airdvr] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown

TOO EARLY TO TELL BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS, BUT HERE IS ANOTHER:

Skydiver, 56, dies after parachute fails to open during jump at Scottish airfield

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257856/Strathallan-Airfield-Skydiver-56-dies-parachute-fails-open-jump.html#ixzz2Hy7roMnA

In reply to:
3 friends who most likely would still be here had they had an RSL. More important than an AAD IMHO.

"However, the reserve parachute had not been pulled and investigators are probing whether the victim was too close to the ground by that stage for it to open and slow his fall efficiently."

Anyone know more?
C


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 14, 2013, 7:37 PM
Post #73 of 115 (798 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey folks,

I'm interested in your opinions on whether it is safer to have an RSL or not.

On my one and only cutaway it was comforting to have my reserve out before I'd even pulled it, but also a little unnerving as this gave me no time to get stable before deploying my reserve.

I can imagine situations where it is both life saving to have RSL (e.g. one arm broken or restricted making it difficult to pull reserve), but also situations where it makes it more dangerous (deploy while unstable after cutaway, being dragged around on a windy day if I forget to disconnect RSL)

Thoughts?

If you've got enough time to deploy in a 2 stage process rather than use RSL or Skyhook can't you just disconnect the RSL before chopping? If you don't have enough time to do this then wouldn't you probably be too low and better off taking your chances with the RSL? I am however new with fuck all jumps and completely clueless, this is just my understanding. Personally I use what ever the CI at my DZ tells me to. They have RSLs on all hire gear and their new gear has skyhooks. Local DZ rules require an RSL or skyhook + AAD fitted until a D license.


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jan 14, 2013, 8:09 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 14, 2013, 8:26 PM
Post #74 of 115 (783 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you've got enough time to deploy in a 2 stage process rather than use RSL or Skyhook...
Yes your newbiness is showing. Trev, you are indicating that what you are going to do is cutaway and let the RSL/Skyhook take care of getting the reserve out.

WRONG WRONG WRONG idea!
You will ALWAYS pull your reserve handle regardless of RSL/Skyhook. Cutaway handle followed by reserve deployment handle...in that order. You train yourself to do this. Why? Because having those back-up safety devices does not guarantee that they are going to work. How much altitude do you want to burn before you figure out, "Oooops the RSL/Skyhook didn't work. I'd better go ahead and pull the reserve deployment handle."

We don't EVER depend on a back-up safety device to save our butts.



In reply to:
can't you just disconnect the RSL before chopping?
Yes. But NO. Why have one if you are going to disconnect it at a time when you need it?

In reply to:
If you don't have enough time to do this then wouldn't you probably be too low and better off taking your chances with the RSL?
Two things here.
-Here again it seems as though you are using the RSL as a primary means of reserve deployment. Nope. See above.
-Time/Altitude. Can you relate time to altitude? Which is more important?
How much time do you have to handle any particular malfunction? No viable way in the world to tell.
How much altitude do you have to handle any particular malfunction? Look at your altimeter.
Simple as that.
Altitude awareness is a must ...especially at EP time.


In reply to:
Personally I use what ever the CI at my DZ tells me to.
Yep. There will come a time when you will be making decisions for yourself. It would be a good idea to learn as much as possible so tht when the time comes, you'll be able to make wise decisiona.

In reply to:
They have RSLs on all hire gear and their new gear has skyhooks. Local DZ rules require an RSL or skyhook + AAD fitted until a D license.
Why do you suppose that is? Because it's typically students and young jumpers who are using that gear and they cannot be trusted to handle EPs properly...hence the back-up safety device. Not only that, but for you for now, it's best practices to have one or he other.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 14, 2013, 8:37 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 14, 2013, 8:42 PM
Post #75 of 115 (769 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you've got enough time to deploy in a 2 stage process rather than use RSL or
>Skyhook can't you just disconnect the RSL before chopping?

Sure you could. It would make as much sense as turning your AAD off just as you hit terminal.

The RSL is there to ensure that your reserve pin gets pulled after you cut away. If you disconnect it before cutting away you might as well not have it. Indeed, it might just kill you - the extra time it takes to locate the RSL and disconnect it might just put you cutting away at 100 feet.

(And no, you can't "only disconnect it when you are high enough." It you train to do it you will do it; if you don't train to do it you won't.)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 14, 2013, 8:49 PM
Post #76 of 115 (1141 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I never meant it to sound as though the RSL is a primary means of deployment. We are trained to ALWAYS follow through the entire procedure regardless, as you said. There are some occasions we are trained to disconnect the RSL such as some canopy collisions or water landings etc. What I was trying to say is wouldn't you be better off with an RSL that you can disconnect if you feel you have enough altitude and feel you are better off to do so. If you don't have enough altitude to disconnect the RSL then you probably don't have enough altitude to get stable anyway. Kind of like better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it.

At the end of the day our DZ CI with 30 000+ jumps tells me to use an RSL, therefor I'm using an RSL.


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jan 14, 2013, 8:55 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:01 PM
Post #77 of 115 (1132 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I never meant it to sound as though the RSL is a primary means of deployment. We are trained to ALWAYS follow through the entire procedure regardless, as you said.
Whew!~ Had me worried there for a while. Good on your instructors.


In reply to:
There are some occasions we are trained to disconnect the RSL such as some canopy collisions or water landings etc.
True. Again, good on your instructors.

In reply to:
What I was trying to say is wouldn't you be better off with an RSL that you can disconnect...
Do you have an RSL that you cannot disconnect? If so, please describe the RSL connection [point, please.


In reply to:
if you feel you have enough altitude and feel you are better off to do so.
Let's say you had all the altitude you needed....what circumstances would prompt you to disconnect the RSL?


In reply to:
...you probably don't have enough altitude to get stable anyway.
Trev, at this stage of the game for you, getting stable after a cutaway is just about the least of your worries. Heck, even old-timers do that....and die because they waited too long to get stable. In fact, some of them never did get stable before the crater happened.

In reply to:
Kind of like better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it.
Exactly.


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:22 PM
Post #78 of 115 (1125 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Man u are misreading everything I'm saying.. I agree with everything you just said 100%..

In reply to:

In reply to:
What I was trying to say is wouldn't you be better off with an RSL that you can disconnect...
Do you have an RSL that you cannot disconnect? If so, please describe the RSL connection [point, please.

Not a RSL that CAN't be disconnected (do they even exist?). I meant you have the OPTION of disconnecting it.

In reply to:
In reply to:
if you feel you have enough altitude and feel you are better off to do so.
Let's say you had all the altitude you needed....what circumstances would prompt you to disconnect the RSL?
I can't think of any, I would chop and pull reserve straight away, it;s what I've been trained to do.


In reply to:
...you probably don't have enough altitude to get stable anyway.
Trev, at this stage of the game for you, getting stable after a cutaway is just about the least of your worries. Heck, even old-timers do that....and die because they waited too long to get stable. In fact, some of them never did get stable before the crater happened.

I don't disagree, I doubt this would ever change.

In reply to:
Kind of like better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it.
Exactly.
My original post was PRO RSL. I really don't know how you got the idea that I think people would be better off without one... I was posting it a question, the basic gist being "Wouldn't you b better off with one and have the option"


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jan 14, 2013, 9:47 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:58 PM
Post #79 of 115 (1110 views)
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In reply to:
Man u are misreading everything I'm saying.. I agree with everything you just said 100%..
In reply to:
LaughLaugh
"...an RSL that you can disconnect" is a lot different than,
"...you have the OPTION of disconnecting it. "

I don't have the power to read "between the lines" so to speak. We're on the same page with that now that you clarified.

In reply to:
Not a RSL that CAN't be disconnected (do they even exist?).
Yes. That's why I asked. Ironically there is discussion of that in one of the current threads. I don't recall which one.

Quote:
Let's say you had all the altitude you needed....what circumstances would prompt you to disconnect the RSL?
In reply to:
I can't think of any, I would chop and pull reserve straight away, it;s what I've been trained to do.

Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?


In reply to:
...you probably don't have enough altitude to get stable anyway.
Trev, at this stage of the game for you, getting stable after a cutaway is just about the least of your worries. Heck, even old-timers do that....and die because they waited too long to get stable. In fact, some of them never did get stable before the crater happened.


I don't disagree, I doubt this would ever change.

In reply to:
Kind of like better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it.
Exactly.

In reply to:
I really don't know how you got the idea that I think people would be better off without one...
Slow down a little Trev. No need for excitement. OK? Never said that. Never implied that. See the above "exactly".

In reply to:
"Wouldn't you b better off with one and have the option"
There ya' go! Simple, precise and to the point.
Yes. Personally, I can't think of any situation where that would not be applicable.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 14, 2013, 10:00 PM)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 14, 2013, 11:40 PM
Post #80 of 115 (1097 views)
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[reply[
Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?
Yeh. I was taught that if it's unavoidable get big (spread arms n legs).Communicate with each other (if you're on the bottom read out altitude to guy in wrap, let him know if his canopy is good etc). Figure out if some1 needs to chop, wait for OK b4 chopping if you do. Make decision whether or not to disconnect RSL.

Only other situation I can think of for disconnecting the RSL is if you're landing in water. If the canopy sinks you'll have to cutaway from it and you don't want your reserve coming out if that happens.

I can't think of any other reason??


(This post was edited by Trev_S on Jan 14, 2013, 11:41 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #81 of 115 (1027 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Trev. Communication is key in collision situations.

I realize that you are in Aussie land and your country's procedures may be different for some of these things. I offer USPA recommendations as food for thought and discussion with your mentors.

..there's more though.

You didn't talk about wraps and entanglements.

Collisions:
There is another school of thought that says make yourself as small as possible with the intent to pass through the lines instead if getting tangled up in the. In fact. USPA recommends that (see USPA SIM 5-1 H). Why? One reason is that Spectra lines will cut you to the bone...not good. Like everything else, there's pros/cons with both methods. Discuss the pros/cons with your instructors as always.

Also from the SIM 6-6:
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs
as wide as possible
to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines, provided the
suspension lines are made from larger diameter
Dacron©.
b. The other hand is used to protect the
reserve ripcord.
c. Canopies with small diameter suspension line,
such as Spectra or HMA, can lead to more serious
injuries during a collision than canopies using
larger diameter suspension lines made from
Dacron©.
(1) Jumpers should tuck in arms, legs and head if
the collision involves canopies with small
diameter suspension lines.
(2) Avoid hitting the suspension lines or other
jumper, if at all possible.

Sadly, it seems that USPA has done away with defining wraps and entanglements and only mentions entanglements now. Ask about what they are and the procedures that used to be recommended for each. If you have some highly experienced CrW dogs on the DZ...talk to them. They are the best to answer these types of questions.


Situations I can think of for disconnecting the RSL:
High winds on landing
Landing on a building
Landing in a tree
Landing in water
Landing in power lines
Upper jumper in an entanglement situation
Two canopies out

If you care to, you can get a hard copy or a soft copy (PDF file) and read it...it's our skydiving bible in the U.S.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 15, 2013, 10:06 AM)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 15, 2013, 1:45 PM
Post #82 of 115 (989 views)
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We were told you can go through but you have to decide whether to go through or go back depending on the situation but that going through will always result in at least one cutaway.

Can you tell what lines people are using before you collide?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:46 PM
Post #83 of 115 (958 views)
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In reply to:
Can you tell what lines people are using before you collide?

And therein lies the rub....I guess USPA expects us to call time out and ask just before the crash.
CrazyCrazy


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:49 PM
Post #84 of 115 (954 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you tell what lines people are using before you collide?

And therein lies the rub....I guess USPA expects us to call time out and ask just before the crash.
CrazyCrazy

While some of the EPs may also be relevant to people not doing CRW who find themselves in a canopy collision, if you're going to quote from 6-6, you probably also want to mention that's the section on CRW. I'm not a CRW dawg, but I'd imagine one would be aware of the equipment (including line type) if you're choosing to do CRW.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jan 15, 2013, 4:50 PM)


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 15, 2013, 5:39 PM
Post #85 of 115 (939 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you tell what lines people are using before you collide?

And therein lies the rub....I guess USPA expects us to call time out and ask just before the crash.
CrazyCrazy

I would just assume that everything in the air around me is microline or worse and would act accordingly...attempt to protect belly, chest, and neck (at the expense of arms and shins, i guess). Probably covers 99% of the situations.

Of course...hope to never, ever be there...

Outside of the situations you mention above, the only time I disconnect my RSL is for clear and pulls from altitude.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 16, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #86 of 115 (866 views)
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In reply to:
I'm not a CRW dawg, but I'd imagine one would be aware of the equipment (including line type) if you're choosing to do CRW.
True enough. Keep in mind we are talking for the benefit of young jumpers who typically are NOT aware of special equipment for CrW. A wrap or an entanglement is as it is regardless of the disciple being worked.

On top of that I went back to refresh my memory on it and sure enough, there is no USPA recommendation for line type.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 16, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #87 of 115 (867 views)
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Re: [hillson] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would just assume that everything in the air around me is microline or worse and would act accordingly...
Exactly.

RSL...clear and pull from altitude?...I don't understand that. Would you elaborate, please?
Thanks in advance.

edited to add:
Because if you had to cutaway at altitude, you'd want to wait until normal pull altitude before deploying the reserve?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 16, 2013, 11:36 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 16, 2013, 11:55 AM
Post #88 of 115 (853 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I would just assume that everything in the air around me is microline or worse and would act accordingly...
Exactly.

RSL...clear and pull from altitude?...I don't understand that. Would you elaborate, please?
Thanks in advance.

edited to add:
Because if you had to cutaway at altitude, you'd want to wait until normal pull altitude before deploying the reserve?

Yeah...it's in the SIM ~ Ya grap one main toggle in the left hand and chop the function...

Drag the main down to 2200' with ya so you can find it easier...let go of the toggle from the main, and then fire off plan B. Sly


YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS STUFF! Devil


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 16, 2013, 12:08 PM
Post #89 of 115 (850 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

You had a two-out.
I has a line-over a streaming spinner. I'm not strong enough to hold on so I'd ride the rock 'n roller down to 2K and fire.
Angelic


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 16, 2013, 12:10 PM)


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 16, 2013, 12:17 PM
Post #90 of 115 (844 views)
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In reply to:
RSL...clear and pull from altitude?...I don't understand that. Would you elaborate, please?
Thanks in advance.

edited to add:
Because if you had to cutaway at altitude, you'd want to wait until normal pull altitude before deploying the reserve?

Yeah...sort of beyond the scope of the original question but...several possible failure / malfunction modes.

1) Generally if I do a clear and pull from altitude it is with a group. Maybe some proximity flying, light end cell bump etc. Never know when a wrap / entanglement may bite you. Better be prepared...

2) But no RSL (for me) is mainly for a mal right out the door. Not talking about some spinny thing where you're in danger of passing out or, god forbid, some fucked up horseshoe etc...I take good care of my stuff but Murphy lurks, right?...but standard failure modes post-deployment where there is the possibility having enough altitude to take a bit to see if it can be fixed etc. If not...if you can ride it down to an altitude where there is a better chance of recovering your gear before cutting away.

3) The real gnarly stuff would be something higher speed like a streamer or a bag lock with enough drag to stand you up and start booking. If it is stable enough to be ridden down for a bit I'd like to chop it lower to increase chances of recovery but, more importantly, have enough altitude to slow down a bit after cutaway. I'd rather head back into freefall and then pop the reserve rather than having it blast off my back at 170mph...Plus, what if there isn't enough drag to clear the risers etc. Would like some altitude to sort that, too.

Alti would probably be somewhere between 5-7K depending on the specific situation. I wouldn't bother riding it down to 3K.

Edit: maybe I'm over thinking...but I'm assuming that with slower speed type stuff one may have the altitude to figure it out / ride it a little bit assuming it is relatively stable. Assuming, too, I'm within reasonable / makeable distance of the DZ / safe outs etc - ie: not 3 miles over the swamp. I'm new...could be wrong.


(This post was edited by hillson on Jan 16, 2013, 12:27 PM)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 16, 2013, 1:53 PM
Post #91 of 115 (815 views)
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In reply to:

Yeah...it's in the SIM ~ Ya grap one main toggle in the left hand and chop the function...

Drag the main down to 2200' with ya so you can find it easier...let go of the toggle from the main, and then fire off plan B. Sly


YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS STUFF! Devil

I can understand why experienced jumpers would do this but isn't it still an unnecessary risk? I would have thought getting your reserve out ASAP even if you're at 7000 for eg would be safer as it gives you tons of altitude to work out any mals your reserve may have (line twists for eg).


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 16, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #92 of 115 (804 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Yeah...it's in the SIM ~ Ya grap one main toggle in the left hand and chop the function...

Drag the main down to 2200' with ya so you can find it easier...let go of the toggle from the main, and then fire off plan B. Sly


YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS STUFF! Devil

I can understand why experienced jumpers would do this but isn't it still an unnecessary risk? I would have thought getting your reserve out ASAP even if you're at 7000 for eg would be safer as it gives you tons of altitude to work out any mals your reserve may have (line twists for eg).

You are quite right Grasshopper. Cool


No one, regardless of experience level should ever attempt to pull a stunt like that.

I can think of 5 things that 'could' go wrong and ruin your whole day...there are probably more but I got a headache today so I'll stop at 5.

You're relatively new to this site so you get a pass...for future reference ~

I'm an extremely sarcastic, grumpy old fart that 'experimented' WAY too much in the 70's, when ya see a lil' devil icon in a post of mine - it's a pretty safe bet I'm just bullshittin' again. Angelic

Heads up call on your part for smelling a rat and asking a question...you'll go far in this sport!


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jan 16, 2013, 2:11 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 16, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #93 of 115 (791 views)
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Re: [hillson] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
RSL...clear and pull from altitude?...I don't understand that. Would you elaborate, please?
Thanks in advance.

edited to add:
Because if you had to cutaway at altitude, you'd want to wait until normal pull altitude before deploying the reserve?

Yeah...sort of beyond the scope of the original question but...several possible failure / malfunction modes.

1) Generally if I do a clear and pull from altitude it is with a group. Maybe some proximity flying, light end cell bump etc. Never know when a wrap / entanglement may bite you. Better be prepared...

2) But no RSL (for me) is mainly for a mal right out the door. Not talking about some spinny thing where you're in danger of passing out or, god forbid, some fucked up horseshoe etc...I take good care of my stuff but Murphy lurks, right?...but standard failure modes post-deployment where there is the possibility having enough altitude to take a bit to see if it can be fixed etc. If not...if you can ride it down to an altitude where there is a better chance of recovering your gear before cutting away.

3) The real gnarly stuff would be something higher speed like a streamer or a bag lock with enough drag to stand you up and start booking. If it is stable enough to be ridden down for a bit I'd like to chop it lower to increase chances of recovery but, more importantly, have enough altitude to slow down a bit after cutaway. I'd rather head back into freefall and then pop the reserve rather than having it blast off my back at 170mph...Plus, what if there isn't enough drag to clear the risers etc. Would like some altitude to sort that, too.

Alti would probably be somewhere between 5-7K depending on the specific situation. I wouldn't bother riding it down to 3K.

Edit: maybe I'm over thinking...but I'm assuming that with slower speed type stuff one may have the altitude to figure it out / ride it a little bit assuming it is relatively stable. Assuming, too, I'm within reasonable / makeable distance of the DZ / safe outs etc - ie: not 3 miles over the swamp. I'm new...could be wrong.

I really think most of what you've posted is simply because you don't have the experience to know better. Once you have determined that a parachute is un-landable, WHY would you even consider delaying your EP's? Are you SURE that your reserve will be without problem? Are you SURE that you will have an uneventful release?

Ive seen both those things and much more and I've only been doing this for 15 years.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 16, 2013, 3:15 PM
Post #94 of 115 (777 views)
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Re: [hillson] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>you can ride it down to an altitude where there is a better chance of recovering
>your gear before cutting away.

>If it is stable enough to be ridden down for a bit I'd like to chop it lower

These two statements are very worrisome. They reveal an approach of "malfunctions are straightforward; emergency procedures always take a few seconds so I'll wait a while before taking action." What if you can't find your reserve handle? What happens if your main just spins and spins for a while, then when you go to cutaway, the twists have trapped your cutaway cables? What if your reserve is harder to pull than you thought it was? What if the long spin loosened your harness and your reserve pull now just pulls your main lift web away from your chest?

(I've seen all those things happen)

>have enough altitude to slow down a bit after cutaway.

If there is enough drag to stand you up you're going at freefall or slower speeds. If there's not enough drag to stand you up then you can stay on your belly and remain at freefall speeds. Both are bad options; cut away and deploy your reserve. It is never in your best interest to remain under a malfunctioning parachute.

If you do, for some reason, want to cut away and not have your reserve open, then disconnect your RSL before cutting away. If you don't have time to do that - then be glad that RSL is there to save you a few more seconds when you need them.


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 16, 2013, 3:18 PM
Post #95 of 115 (774 views)
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That's a good point. Possible - even likely - that I'm assed around on this point. I'll ask the instructors this weekend and report back. It isn't like this received wisdom is my own invention but I'm perfectly happy being corrected.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 16, 2013, 5:43 PM
Post #96 of 115 (736 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you care to, you can get a hard copy or a soft copy (PDF file) and read it...it's our skydiving bible in the U.S.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

Andy, while I like the SIM and have a copy, I think for an Aussie Student our Operational Regulations and "A license Manual" and "B license Manual" would be better reads. There are enough differences (opening heights, license requirements, cloud jumping etc) that the SIM could cause confusion.

Once he's got his B license I agree the SIM is a valuable reference tool.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 17, 2013, 5:05 PM
Post #97 of 115 (672 views)
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In reply to:
Heads up call on your part for smelling a rat and asking a question...you'll go far in this sport!

Yeah...and YOU smelled out the rat I threw.

God how I was praying that nobody would actually consider doing the "ride-out".
Unsure


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 17, 2013, 5:14 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 17, 2013, 5:13 PM
Post #98 of 115 (667 views)
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Re: [nigel99] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you care to, you can get a hard copy or a soft copy (PDF file) and read it...it's our skydiving bible in the U.S.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

Andy, while I like the SIM and have a copy, I think for an Aussie Student our Operational Regulations and "A license Manual" and "B license Manual" would be better reads. There are enough differences (opening heights, license requirements, cloud jumping etc) that the SIM could cause confusion.

Once he's got his B license I agree the SIM is a valuable reference tool.

Yep...hence, I wrote...
"I realize that you are in Aussie land and your country's procedures may be different for some of these things. I offer USPA recommendations as food for thought and discussion with your mentors. "

I didn't think of the confusion factor...I was trying to encourage reading about stuff and talking about stuff.

Thanks for the heads up on the confusion factor.


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 17, 2013, 6:49 PM
Post #99 of 115 (634 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeh, if there's anything I'm not sure about I check with my local instructors, they know their shit. Not that people on these forums don't but I got nfi who you all are ;)


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 17, 2013, 8:43 PM
Post #100 of 115 (616 views)
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Re: [Trev_S] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

You will also decide to cut away when you land in high winds and are being dragged backwards on your back, towards the parking stops in the lot you just landed out in. Wishing you'd disconnected your RSL.


In reply to:
[reply[
Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?

Yeh. I was taught that if it's unavoidable get big (spread arms n legs).Communicate with each other (if you're on the bottom read out altitude to guy in wrap, let him know if his canopy is good etc). Figure out if some1 needs to chop, wait for OK b4 chopping if you do. Make decision whether or not to disconnect RSL.

Only other situation I can think of for disconnecting the RSL is if you're landing in water. If the canopy sinks you'll have to cutaway from it and you don't want your reserve coming out if that happens.

I can't think of any other reason??

(This post was edited by jsaxton on Jan 17, 2013, 8:58 PM)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 17, 2013, 9:21 PM
Post #101 of 115 (903 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

hahaha, speaking from experience?
Fuck I'd love to see that hahaha


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 17, 2013, 10:08 PM
Post #102 of 115 (894 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You will also decide to cut away when you land in high winds and are being dragged backwards on your back, towards the parking stops in the lot you just landed out in. Wishing you'd disconnected your RSL.


In reply to:
[reply[
Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?

Yeh. I was taught that if it's unavoidable get big (spread arms n legs).]

Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 17, 2013, 11:14 PM
Post #103 of 115 (889 views)
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In reply to:

Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.

We were taught to get big but what is being said about micro lines does make sense. I will have to ask an instructor at my DZ n see what the go is locally.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 18, 2013, 8:46 AM
Post #104 of 115 (829 views)
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I always figured I'd go for body to body, feet first Tongue

In reply to:
Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 18, 2013, 9:54 AM
Post #105 of 115 (818 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>I always figured I'd go for body to body, feet first

I recall an incident in Eloy that resulted in a feet-first collision. One jumper survived, although he now has one less foot.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 19, 2013, 1:37 AM
Post #106 of 115 (746 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many people do you know that would be able to take their RSL and fully instal it?
Every student I teach. Knowing how the RSL works is part of the A-license requirements in the U.S.

In reply to:
It's great that I am trying to share with everyone here that I learned something about a simple but dangerous mistake that a RIGGER made and yet all you guys want to do is take the piss out of me.
Congrats on finding it, We are "taking the piss out of you" because:
- You didn't know this stuff already
- You went six months without checking it
- You don't know the rules of your own organization
- You were too lazy to go look it up.
- You bought gear and didn't RTFM
- You made your rigger responsible instead of yourself

In reply to:
Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my reserve pin to reroute my RSL?
What are the Australian rules on that?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 19, 2013, 1:41 AM)


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 19, 2013, 6:33 PM
Post #107 of 115 (695 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

These 2 threads talk about how a skyhook can screw up a good main.

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

In both cases the Collins lanyard disconnected a main riser.

Skyhooks are a far more complicated system than an RSL


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jan 19, 2013, 7:49 PM
Post #108 of 115 (682 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
These 2 threads talk about how a skyhook can screw up a good main.

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

In both cases the Collins lanyard disconnected a main riser.

Skyhooks are a far more complicated system than an RSL

At least tell the whole story.

In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the AAD.

In the second thread the reserve pack tray was dislodged during opening which was determined to have been loosing up over time due to side loaded openings.

Lets please tell the whole truth and the whole story so the young jumpers who don't know about these incidents don't just read into this that the Skyhook is the devil.

I don't doubt you'll likely respond that they should read these threads - but we all know that a lot people are not going to read these 10 page threads just to get to the truth about these old beaten to death incidents.

I know the Skyhook adds complexity to our rigs but then so does the AAD.

I just wish we could give full disclosure on everything and not use old incident threads to spread fear.

But then that's just me.

.


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 20, 2013, 5:41 AM
Post #109 of 115 (633 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the AAD.

Because the AAD worked as designed. The Skyhook didn't. Fair enough?!


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Jan 20, 2013, 6:23 AM
Post #110 of 115 (617 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the aad


.

In both cases however, if the people involved had had a standard RSL and not a skyhook, it would have been a non-event which most likely never would have shown up in these forums. People need to read those threads and understand that.

Skyhooks can and probably already have saved lives. But the kid in Chicago is alive through sheer luck and it would have been a non-event if he had had a regular RSL. That's what scares me.

People should read those threads and learn. Some may still choose to get a Skyhook and some may not. But to me it's critical that you understand all the issues. And things like if I had a skyhook and accidentally pulled low and had an AAD fire to make me tow a reserve pc behind my good main - I'm not sure whether the best plan would be to try and get good grips on my reserve pc to make sure my main doesn't accidentally get disconnected or whether I should cutaway and hope the skyhook gets my reserve to come out in time. Somehow I would want to make extremely certain that the Collins lanyard doesn't turn my main into junk 200 feet off the ground like it did for the Chicago kid. I haven't thought about what to do because I don't have one, but its far more important to come up with a plan for that if you have a Skyhook than if you don't. What can possibly happen is different with a skyhook than a regular rig.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jan 20, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #111 of 115 (599 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Skyhooks are just like every other device added to a basic rig that is intended to reduce risk: their presence means there are additional failure modes that can cause harm that wouldn't have occurred in their absence. But skydiving technology is no different than any other area of technology. For example, there are unambiguous cases of air bags and seat belts in automobiles resulting in fatalities that would not have occurred had they not been present.

The fact that such incidents have occurred (and will continue occur) is not the relevant consideration. Seat belt and airbags have saved far more lives than they have taken: the data is unequivocal. Their value is not diminished by noting some fatalities or injuries occurred because they were installed; one has to look at the data on both sides of the ledger.

The relevant question here should be whether Skyhooks (or RSLs, or AAD, etc) result in a significant overall reduction in risk due to their presence/use, compared to their absence. While I don't know that this is the case with respect to the Skyhook, that is only because I (personally) have not seen the data comparing saves (and injury reductions) to those cases where the presence of a Skyhook was a factor in an injury or fatality. But ultimately, that is the analysis one must to do to determine whether a skyhook is truly a valuable safety device, as opposed to a device that just trades one risk for another equal risk.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 20, 2013, 4:39 PM
Post #112 of 115 (553 views)
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Re: [Divalent] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Good stuff!


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Jan 20, 2013, 7:37 PM
Post #113 of 115 (532 views)
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Re: [Divalent] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. I do think people need to make sure and plan procedures for their specific gear. If you have an rsl plan to disconnect it if you have 2-out or are landing in water. If you have a skyhook and have a reserve pc out with a good main for whatever reason ( low pull/aad fire, reserve container ripped after a hard opening, knocked a pin loose on exit or whatever - your procedures might should be different than someone without one. I bet 75 percent of people out there might have never considered how they might should change their plans depending on their particular gear.

Know your gear intimately. I'm not saying a skyhook is bad. I'm not saying an rsl is bad. I am saying that in certain situations you need to have different procedures if you have one than if you don't. And the time to think all of that stuff through is on the ground and talking to your rigger and your instructors and learning your gear.

The skyhook is a reasonably complicated setup. If you have one and have never seen how it works get your rigger to show you at your next reserve repack at the latest. Understand the pros the cons and learn as much as you can about it both good and bad. Then think about all the possible malfunctions and issues and come up with a plan on the ground. The last place you want to be having to improvise is at a 1000 feet in a sketchy situation after a low pull. Have a plan. Know your gear. So many skydivers have no clue how their gear works. And that can kill you. KNOW YOUR GEAR.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 20, 2013, 9:43 PM
Post #114 of 115 (516 views)
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Re: [Divalent] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>The relevant question here should be whether Skyhooks (or RSLs, or AAD, etc) result
>in a significant overall reduction in risk due to their presence/use, compared to their
>absence.

Exactly. And overall they seem to do more good than harm. But they are complex enough that they are getting very close to that line. (IMO of course)


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jan 20, 2013, 11:06 PM
Post #115 of 115 (507 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] To RSL or not to RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Skyhooks can and probably already have saved lives. But the kid in Chicago is alive through sheer luck and it would have been a non-event if he had had a regular RSL. That's what scares me.

That "kid" (who was well in his 40's) is alive because he got lucky plain and simple. His container had separated from the harness and he was trailing his reserve PC. When he went to make a turn the colin's lanyard disconnected his riser.

Had that gear not have a skyhook who knows what would have happened. Maybe the reserve would have extracted at 250 and went into a downplane??

I for one am glad Jim is ok, but he was lucky. He did his EP's "wrong" according to what was taught to him, but it quite possibly saved his life.



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