agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.
my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?
I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?
agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.
my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?
I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?
Many people right after a life threatening event are essentially babbling idiots.
agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.
my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?
I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?
I agree with this approach - yours. This is why I say: we would have to talk to Tina to really know, but Tina was only one party contributing to the profile sketch. The sketches are an agreement between many witnesses, not just Tina.
Does Geoff Gray single out Tina in his book for special treatment/description? Does Geoff speak to Tina's description of Cooper, or Tina particular role in the development of the FBI sketches? I think not,
Does Gray single out Flo in the same manner? Evidently there was nothing in the files Geoff read to make singling these people out noteworthy..
The sketches, as Ckret explained, is a consensus among all of the witnesses which Ckret described as being in 'close agreement', as a whole. It does not rest on Tina alone, whatever her state.
I fear this stuff about Tina's "state" is being used as a red herring (straw man) for a problem which did not exist in the first place, if you believe Ckret description of the 'process' which resulted in sketches.
There is no actual evidence whatever that Tina was a 'babling idiot?' following the events, unable to function, and gave an erroneous description of Cooper. I am rather sure if Geoff Gray reading the files had picked that up he would have reported it - he did not.
I ask myself: how would a physical anthropologist group these sketches and assess them, looking at them for consistency/reliability in desacribing physical parameters? To me they fall into three groups: (a) the original FBi sketches + Flo's independent sketch, (b) the single fuller faced sketch which shows different proportions, and (c) Geoff new sketch based on one witness.
And there is no disagreement between all of the parties as to general height!
So the veracity of the sketches does not rely on Tina's emotional state alone, if at all.
And on the issue of height, there is no general disagreement.
Consider for a moment what it would be if these sketches turned out to be 'very accurate'! I mean we are taken to the one extreme (not accurate) by a group of people - why not shift to the other extreme just for the sake of arguement, for a change! If these sketches were "very accurate" then we are looking for a guy who has very specific features, who has not been found to date. Something would have to explain that! The truth, may be somewhere in the middle ... with doomsday and the "sketch cliff" averted! Life may continue after all!
(This post was edited by georger on Dec 5, 2012, 12:19 PM)
agreed, but IMO the PTSD had not set in on Tina right after the left the plane and spoke with the FBI, and whether she is suffering from it or not, nobody knows for sure.
my observation is it's possible that Tina's perception is much different from Flo's, you don't need a traumatic event in order to have different conclusions to what someone has seen. you would think since Tina spent more time with him that she should have a good description, yet years later Flo says none of the sketches really looked like Cooper, which one is suffering a traumatic event, one or both? or did they both have a bad perception of describing Cooper? can we blame it on stress, or just bad judgement?
I agree that this has probably damaged Tina over the years, but I'm not sold has to the amount of damage right after the crime, if that makes sense?
I agree with this approach - yours. This is why I say: we would have to talk to Tina to really know, but Tina was only one party contributing to the profile sketch. The sketches are an agreement between many witnesses, not just Tina.
Does Geoff Gray single out Tina in his book for special treatment/description? Does Geoff speak to Tina's description of Cooper, or Tina particular role in the development of the FBI sketches? I think not,
Does Gray single out Flo in the same manner? Evidently there was nothing in the files Geoff read to make singling these people out noteworthy..
The sketches, as Ckret explained, is a consensus among all of the witnesses which Ckret described as being in 'close agreement', as a whole. It does not rest on Tina alone, whatever her state.
I fear this stuff about Tina's "state" is being used as a red herring (straw man) for a problem which did not exist in the first place, if you believe Ckret description of the 'process' which resulted in sketches.
There is no actual evidence whatever that Tina was a 'babling idiot?' following the events, unable to function, and gave an erroneous description of Cooper. I am rather sure if Geoff Gray reading the files had picked that up he would have reported it - he did not.
I ask myself: how would a physical anthropologist group these sketches and assess them, looking at them for consistency/reliability in desacribing physical parameters? To me they fall into three groups: (a) the original FBi sketches + Flo's independent sketch, (b) the single fuller faced sketch which shows different proportions, and (c) Geoff new sketch based on one witness.
And there is no disagreement between all of the parties as to general height!
So the veracity of the sketches does not rely on Tina's emotional state alone, if at all.
And on the issue of height, there is no general disagreement.
Consider for a moment what it would be if these sketches turned out to be 'very accurate'! I mean we are taken to the one extreme (not accurate) by a group of people - why not shift to the other extreme just for the sake of arguement, for a change! If these sketches were "very accurate" then we are looking for a guy who has very specific features, who has not been found to date. Something would have to explain that! The truth, may be somewhere in the middle ... with doomsday and the "sketch cliff" averted! Life may continue after all!
Sketch cliff good one!
The sketches could turn out to be close, but I have noticed one thing ? (see photo) sometimes we just can't get it right (see photo)
(This post was edited by mrshutter45 on Dec 5, 2012, 1:33 PM)
Dec 5, 2012, 4:31 PM
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you must have put the picture on here twice? this was the pic I was looking at, missing lower half.
OF COURSE A HORSE is A HORSE of Course!
The picture was taken on a hill and I have the complete photo. I had to enlarge and crop it so the face could be seen and the "uniform" for lack of knowledge of what-ever he was wearing. I didn't think the Briefcase or music case was important - but obviously someone else does. I looks more like a music case or a pilots case instead of a regular brief case. Why I thought pilot or music director.
Dec 5, 2012, 5:59 PM
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you must have put the picture on here twice? this was the pic I was looking at, missing lower half.
OF COURSE A HORSE is A HORSE of Course!
The picture was taken on a hill and I have the complete photo. I had to enlarge and crop it so the face could be seen and the "uniform" for lack of knowledge of what-ever he was wearing. I didn't think the Briefcase or music case was important - but obviously someone else does. I looks more like a music case or a pilots case instead of a regular brief case. Why I thought pilot or music director.
Jo, The area in the immediate vicinity of Temple Square is quite flat. In addition, the scenery behind the man does NOT resemble any entrance to Temple Square that I have ever seen. And that building does not match the types that are on Temple Square.
The briefcase is exactly that, a medium thickness attache case. There is no indication of what it might contain but it is definitely NOT a pilot's case.
The "uniform" that the man is wearing reminds me of Captain Kangroo's double knits, but of a much darker color. And I definitely doubt that you would find such clothes at Temple Square.
I see absolutely nothing in that photograph that indicates any connection with Salt Lake City or even Utah.
Dec 5, 2012, 8:09 PM
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you must have put the picture on here twice? this was the pic I was looking at, missing lower half.
OF COURSE A HORSE is A HORSE of Course!
The picture was taken on a hill and I have the complete photo. I had to enlarge and crop it so the face could be seen and the "uniform" for lack of knowledge of what-ever he was wearing. I didn't think the Briefcase or music case was important - but obviously someone else does. I looks more like a music case or a pilots case instead of a regular brief case. Why I thought pilot or music director.
Jo, The area in the immediate vicinity of Temple Square is quite flat. In addition, the scenery behind the man does NOT resemble any entrance to Temple Square that I have ever seen. And that building does not match the types that are on Temple Square.
JO INSERT THIS EMPHATICALLY! The building was the Assembly Hall and the picture was made up grade (perhaps you do NOT call it a hill) from the entrance within the grounds of the Mormon Church. The picture of the building in its entirety perhaps will REFRESH your mind. This was established by the Sisters and others in Salt Lake.
YOU must never have been there - I have in my album a picture of the building (a picture I took) and of the Markers at the site I took the picture from. Since these pictures do not show the man I never felt the need to scan them and will NOT just to put you in your PLACE, Mr. Know IT ALL! I have never said it was at an entrance.
The briefcase is exactly that, a medium thickness attache case. There is no indication of what it might contain but it is definitely NOT a pilot's case.
The "uniform" that the man is wearing reminds me of Captain Kangroo's double knits, but of a much darker color. And I definitely doubt that you would find such clothes at Temple Square.
I see absolutely nothing in that photograph that indicates any connection with Salt Lake City or even Utah.
Robert99
A STRONG ADDENDUM:
Just who do YOU think YOU are trying to fool. Pehaps otherS who have NEVER been there. JUST what DO you think you are doing. THIS alone tells me you are some kind of phoney IN THIS THREAD - just to try to discredit anyone from telling this part of the story - one that I lived and have pictures to prove. I take you to TASK on this because I have the pictures and the negatives.
I AM NOT A MORON NOR ARE OTHERS IN THIS THREAD.
(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Dec 5, 2012, 8:14 PM)
Dec 5, 2012, 8:22 PM
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General note: If the sketches are so accurate as to nearly represent a photo of the hijacker...and the FBI is so sure of them...then WHY would the FBI spend soooo much time interviewing over a thousand suspects in the crime? Unless you believe that all of these suspects resembled the sketch?
Georger says in part:
Quote:
'And there is no disagreement between all of the parties as to general height!
So the veracity of the sketches does not rely on Tina's emotional state alone, if at all.
And on the issue of height, there is no general disagreement...'
And yet at least some of the evidence says THERE IS dispute. I highly doubt Geoff Gray would tell outright lies regarding what the witnesses told the FBI after the hijacking. He has said publicly he was allowed to read the original reports taken down by the agents who interviewed the witnesses both in Seattle and Reno. And Gray has a different take on it entirely.
I've already mentioned a list of people who, according to Gray, gave widely varying descriptions of the hijacker. For example, Robert Gregory, who saw Cooper several times during the flight and says Cooper was 'no taller than five-nine.' Or the disagreement between Tina and Flo. Tina thought he was about five ten to six feet. Flo thought taller. And other discrepencies between these witnesses.
In fact, I trust the testimony of the passengers a bit better than I do the stews, because the passengers were under less stress. They did not know about a bomb and a hijacking, not initially. They were not quietly freaking out wondering whether they were ever going to see their families again.
You keep harping on these points about the sketch being so accurate. (I think it's reasonably close, but not a photograph, as you do) I even gave you the Green River Killer example and you just ignored that. Recall: Sketches hung up everywhere in the SeaTac area, including the Seven Eleven where the killer shopped occasionally, and he was never recognized from it. Also, the Green River Task Force didn't make the connection, even though they interviewed him at the GRTF office where the sketch was hanging on the wall.
Like your psychological Lucy/Peanuts based assessment of Mucklow, over the years you have created a world of pre-conceived notions. And I'm here to tell you that some of them are WRONG.
This is not all your fault. It sometimes happens when you are too close to something for too long, and have too much emotional content invested in that 'something'. So, you've become a bit intractable.
When I suggested that it might be difficult to judge someone's true height inside the confines of an aircraft cabin, you called it 'changing physics'. It was actually common sense. It IS easier to judge someone's height, for example, if you are standing next to them at the bus stop. If it were so easy to judge height under stress, convenience stores would not find it necessary to put those height measuring devices by the entrance doors.
(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Dec 5, 2012, 8:35 PM)
The sketches could turn out to be close, but I have noticed one thing ? (see photo) sometimes we just can't get it right (see photo) The Chinese ad is funny!
Dec 5, 2012, 8:29 PM
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General note: If the sketches are so accurate as to nearly represent a photo of the hijacker...and the FBI is so sure of them...then WHY would the FBI spend soooo much time interviewing over a thousand suspects in the crime? Unless you believe that all of these suspects resembled the sketch?
JUST A PICTURE OF THE BUILDING THE MAN WAS WALKING IN FRONT OF.
THE ASSEMBLY HALL
If I called you the names I am verbalizing here in my office I would be Banned for Life on the thread - so I refuse to let the LIKE of you to continue to encite me.
I have taken MY pain medication at this time because I had a hard day, but I would LIKE to see an EXPLANATION FROM YOU BEFORE I LEAVE!
(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Dec 5, 2012, 8:35 PM)
Dec 5, 2012, 8:43 PM
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what the witnesses told the FBI after the hijacking.
I've already mentioned a list of people who, according to Gray, gave widely varying descriptions
Robert Gregory,
between Tina and Flo.
"Just because you fail once doesn't mean you're gonna fail at everything..."
Marilyn Monroe There you go again, Marilyn, exaggerating the size of your horn section ...
Witnesses! LOTS OF EM! List! HUMONGOUS LIST!
Robert Gregory Tina/Flo (close in height)
Thats one helluva a large list Marilyn. Witnesses, all two of them.
So let me assist. Add Simmons and his wife - maybe. Guess Geoff left Simmons off the long liost running five pages... but I will add him and the Mrs. Now you have 2 1/2.
Add the college kid across from Cooper. Now you have 3 1/2
You need more witnesses, lists, and horns, Marilyn.
Try Victoria's Secret. There must be an outfit in the closest never seen before... put it on and trot it out on the runway ............ make sure the batteries work.
(This post was edited by georger on Dec 5, 2012, 8:45 PM)
well, it's bad enough we have different descriptions from eyewitnesses, we also have people matching photo's to the sketches, some have an exact match? I don't think the odds are that good on a exact match from sketch to photo.
In my opinion, the first floor level windows in the large Assembly Hall picture do in fact match the first floor level window behind the man in Jo's original picture. By this thread's standards, that is absolute proof.
Jo, For the record, I have spent plenty of time on multiple visits to Salt Lake City at the Family History Library, which is just across the street on the west side from the Assembly Hall. And also at the former Hotel Utah (now the Joseph Smith Building) just across the street on the east side from the Temple itself.
Robert99
(This post was edited by Robert99 on Dec 5, 2012, 10:52 PM)
Dec 5, 2012, 9:47 PM
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what the witnesses told the FBI after the hijacking.
I've already mentioned a list of people who, according to Gray, gave widely varying descriptions
Robert Gregory,
between Tina and Flo.
"Just because you fail once doesn't mean you're gonna fail at everything..."
Marilyn Monroe
There you go again, Marilyn, exaggerating the size of your horn section ...
Witnesses! LOTS OF EM! List! HUMONGOUS LIST!
Robert Gregory Tina/Flo (close in height)
Thats one helluva a large list Marilyn. Witnesses, all two of them.
So let me assist. Add Simmons and his wife - maybe. Guess Geoff left Simmons off the long liost running five pages... but I will add him and the Mrs. Now you have 2 1/2.
Add the college kid across from Cooper. Now you have 3 1/2
You need more witnesses, lists, and horns, Marilyn.
Try Victoria's Secret. There must be an outfit in the closest never seen before... put it on and trot it out on the runway ............ make sure the batteries work.
LOL the truth is you don't have an answer. That's why you retreated into Alice in Wonderland again. I never listed all the witnesses. Just gave a few examples to show you there WAS discrepency between them on the hijacking. And pointed out the obvious flaws in sketches and descriptions by using the case of the Green River Killer. (a very GOOD example, IMHO) All your cute spinning doesn't change that. In case you're thinking I'm trying to stretch the testimony to fit KC or something...I didn't even rely on the sketch to build whatever case there is against Christiansen, except in a general way. He does resemble it, but as many people have pointed out, so does Bing Crosby. Maybe even Don Adams.
Quote:
"Tennessee Tuxedo will NOT fail..."
Could have been Don Adams, you know. (Chumley, no. Tennessee's partner REALLY doesn't doesn't fit the sketch.)
Quote:
"Would you believe TWO hundred thousand dollars..."
(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Dec 5, 2012, 9:51 PM)
Dec 5, 2012, 9:52 PM
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IF I indeed made those remark, I must have taken my medication. I am now taking meds for pain. I question it because it was JUST not something I say - but an echo of what JT used to bellow out all of the time.
If you need PROOF that pic was made in Salt Lake with the Assembly Hall as background I have the pictures, but do NOT post private images of myself on the thread or elsewhere. You KNEW it was the Assembly Hall, but I do not understand why you would deny it was. IF YOU SPENT THE TIME YOU CLAIM AT AT SALT LAKE YOU KNEW EXACTLY WHERE THE PHOTO WAS MADE.
Dec 5, 2012, 10:21 PM
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Can we have a quick refresher here? WHY is this photo important? Just asking, that's all.
Because Duane knew the man and did not want him to see him. Whoever this man is - is the link to the past of Weber...whatever that is.
We went to the Visitors Center and he found his name on the roster and went down the hall. He came back and said the man was just leaving. He quickly took me to the site this man had to pass to get to his car. He did NOT want the man to see him, but told me where he would becoming from and that he would have a briefcase - the man had to go this way to get to his car.
Duane left - I was never sure where he went to...but he disappeared quickly.
After the film was developed and I was putting the picks in the album he asked me where the negatives were. I told him in the safe as I always did (my family lost a lot of photo due to a fire so I was fire cautious.).
Then after we moved to Fl in 1988 I was redoing the albums and again Duane asked about the prints. I searched 50 yrs of negatives. The ONLY missing are the negatives of the pictures I made of this man. He could NOT take the ones out of the album without arousing my curiosity.
Whoever this man is - he is connected to Duane's past and the pictures he needed for a purpose - I want to know what Duane's history with this man was and who he was.
I think the answer to Tina ... is in the rest of her life.
I have been an instructor in a few adventure sports and a participant in many more. The USAF gave me 8 years of putting highly trained MOSTLY college boys in life threatening situations ( with the caveat that I could not break them beyond repair) while never forgetting I was there to impart my knowledge of staying alive no matter where and under what situations they might find themselves in.
People respond to stress and the influx of adrenaline in far different ways.
Some of us LIVE for that... others.... end up in a convent.
I think she did a whole lot of praying on that plane that night. I think Dean Martin could have been the hijacker and she would not have been able to describe him. Her focus was not on him... it was on just how close she, as a young woman, could very well end up not growing one day older.
You're so melodramatic Amazon. Seems to me Tina had her wits about her pretty much the whole time. She followed every one of DBC's instructions -- to the letter. The crew credited her with saving their lives. She talked to Cooper, lit his cigarettes, even joked around with him. When the money came, she asked, "Can I have some? Just kidding." When Cooper handed her a bundle of money she said, "No thanks, I'm not allowed to take tips." That hardly sounds like someone paralyzed by her fear.
Tina was incapacitated by the sheer terror and peril of the moment? No way, that's ridiculous. The evidence and testimony do not support that conclusion. And I would also go out on a limb and say her testimony and descriptions afterwards were probably pretty reliable. Airline crews are trained to deal with emergency situations in flight -- that's their job. I would trust her assessment of the ordeal.
This is not to say that she didn't suffer from PTSD later on. PTSD can be a delayed reaction -- weeks, even months after the fact. This is quite possible in Tina's case, and it's probably what happened.
But she was on her game those 5 hours on 11/24/71 with DBC -- I have no doubts about that.
well, it's bad enough we have different descriptions from eyewitnesses, we also have people matching photo's to the sketches, some have an exact match? I don't think the odds are that good on a exact match from sketch to photo.
let's take a look at the suspects all together?
Why did you use the one picture I do not know the source of and it has all kinds of reflection on.
Try ONE of these if you really want to be objective.
(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Dec 5, 2012, 10:42 PM)
Also, please remember that the Chief Psychologist for the FAA in Washington, DC had passed the word to the flight crew that Cooper would probably take a hostage with him and blow up the airliner when he jumped.
What an idiot. Like a PhD in psychology qualifies him to predict this. I wonder if he predicted the exit point and deployment altitude too.
Looks like he was wrong on all fronts. Amazon would call him a "college boy". I'd be less kind.
377
I have to agree. Most shrinks will tell you they need to see someone in person, or at least a case record. Also, the limited amount of communications between the hijacker and Everyone Else doesn't reveal many clues to his personality.
Example: The shrink hears that the hijacker has killed two of the hostages, shoved them out onto the tarmac, and now the plane is in the air again. Crew says he's going crazy in the back of the plane, shouting, making threats. Then you might be able to make a reasonable prediction like that.
_________________________________________________ There you go again Blevins -- sure about what you just said?? MeyerLouie
Dec 5, 2012, 10:41 PM
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LOL the truth is you don't have an answer. No, the answers were given in the previous post - which you conveniently ignore, just as always ignore people's posts and what they say - so you can build a bigger BILLBOARD.
Just like you posted then amended, thewn took down three posts last night (a) announcing you are sending your material to the Seattle FBI and the Seattle Times, (b) then took that down and posted the actual letter (which was funny), (c) then took that down and left a hollow space saying "I am Not Afraid" at the top ... which still resides on DZ for all to see.
And you call me Alice in Wonderland?
Did you get your letter sent to the FBI today? Or did you chicken out ?
American wants to know! (thats your line) Is there anybody in there? (thats your line)
Do you actually think anyone gives a shit? (Thats my line).
cooper sketches.JPG
