Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Canopy climbs after 270

 


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Nov 18, 2012, 10:28 AM
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Canopy climbs after 270 Can't Post

I have about 125 jumps on a crossfire 2 169, loaded 1.55/1. 100 of those are riser approaches. The last 50 have been 270's. I have been working on increasing my turn and dive times to increase my speed. Over the last ten jumps the canopy has been climbing half way through the swoop, about ten feet. I have attributed this in the past to twisted steering lines, but last jump I made sure they were untwisted before packing. I have tried keeping my hands on the dive loops, and even tried adding a little pressure when it starts to climb. My biggest concern is that when it gets to the top of the climb it's almost stalled, and starts descending almost vertically with little pressure left for the flare. Anny suggestions?


trigger  (D 101390)

Nov 18, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Have a rigger measure the brake lines esp the lowers as i suspect your brake line are too short.
Have you noticed any tail flutter at all in the dive, another indication that the brakes are set too short.
Have someone video your approach and landing and interrogate to see if the canopy tail is bucking.
Another check you can do at altitude at full flight with the toggles all the way up, look up at the brake lines is there a healthy bow or are they taut.
Note:If they are too short you will have to go back and redial your approaches.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 12:11 PM
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Re: [trigger] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not just the brake lines, but the check the whole canopy trim.

When you get video, see if your PC isn't slightly inflated and also watch your start/dive/release. If it isn't smooth, you're creating problems.

On a canopy like a Stiletto, it doesn't take as much to max out the dive and "turtle" back up into the air. On something like a XF2 it is harder. On pro-class canopies we really haven't seen the true "maxed out" potential yet.


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 12:19 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a normal attribute for that canopy at that light of a wing loading. It's the reason I switched to Katana. You have to be low on the crossfire to get a good swoop out of it ( at that loading)

Comparing swoop videos from the 2, the crossfire always looks scary and dirty low. (For the good swoops)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 12:35 PM
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have to be low on the crossfire to get a good swoop out of it ( at that loading)

I don't agree with that statement at all.

In the 1.5 range it will perform well, you can get good, smooth swoops out of it, of course you'll feel like when you jump a smaller one loaded in the 1.7-1.9 range that it's "better" but that has more to do with you having more jumps, having less drag and the ability to generate more speed.


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 1:55 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

I got plenty of good swoops out of my crossfire loaded at 1.5.

I consider it low when you compare it to the recovery arc to the Katana, because the crossfire planes out pretty quick.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 2:04 PM
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I consider it low when you compare it to the recovery arc to the Katana, because the crossfire planes out pretty quick.

When you say you have to turn it low, it makes it sound like you have to put it in the corner. That is what I was disagreeing with.

The same size/wingloading Katana vs XF2 I had to turn 75ft higher on the Katana. It isn't low or high, the two canopies just have different flight and recovery characteristics.


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 2:18 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess "in the corner" is relative. I felt like i had to put it there for best results. And im pretty sure thats why GW told me to get a Katana.

http://www.youtube.com/...x=4&feature=plcp

I had to bump up my turn 230ft when switching from crossfire2 99 to katana 97.

Crossfires can be swooped and swooped well, but in the end i regret spending time on that canopy and wish i had started with a Katana.


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Nov 18, 2012, 3:24 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

After checking the line trims, the brakes were set 2cm short of the factory setting. I lengthen them by that, will see how it does.


IMGR2  (D 21089)

Nov 18, 2012, 3:41 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Never count out the fact that seeing as though you found a discrepancy with your brake lines that there may be a discrepancy with the suspension lines.

I have more than my fair share of jumps on many prototype canopies when we were doing tests on line trims.
I actually had canopies climb on the back end of the swoop. Had one take me almost 30 feet back up in the air once. Very scary!


buyaka96  (C 38673)

Nov 18, 2012, 6:20 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually don't like replying on DZ but I thought i might this time since it's also happened to me. I was loaded at 1.4 on a on a new XF 149. My canopy would also pop up on me by over 20 feet at times. The lines were all still in trim after 100 jumps from when i started doing 90s and 270s. I got aggravated about popping up and even GW couldn't explain why it was happening. After some asking, some of us came to the conclusion that it was mainly due to size of the parachute and the current wing loading. Because recovery arc placed a huge role, the efficiency of wing at light loading became even bigger being that it's still a closed nose design and it's flatter glide made it recovery that much faster. It wasn't until I wingloaded similar canopies at above 1.8 that I noticed it would stop "popping up" on the bottom end of the arc that the less parasitic drag of the chute would keep it in more of a dive. I think this makes sense.... but who knows.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Nov 19, 2012, 8:14 AM
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Re: [buyaka96] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I usually don't like replying on DZ but I thought i might this time since it's also happened to me. I was loaded at 1.4 on a on a new XF 149. My canopy would also pop up on me by over 20 feet at times. The lines were all still in trim after 100 jumps from when i started doing 90s and 270s. I got aggravated about popping up and even GW couldn't explain why it was happening. After some asking, some of us came to the conclusion that it was mainly due to size of the parachute and the current wing loading. Because recovery arc placed a huge role, the efficiency of wing at light loading became even bigger being that it's still a closed nose design and it's flatter glide made it recovery that much faster. It wasn't until I wingloaded similar canopies at above 1.8 that I noticed it would stop "popping up" on the bottom end of the arc that the less parasitic drag of the chute would keep it in more of a dive. I think this makes sense.... but who knows.

DING DING DING We have a winner. I was thinking the same thing. I've seen it a bit on xf2's lightly loaded esp. once the turn increases.


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Nov 19, 2012, 9:01 AM
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Re: [dqpacker] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

one thing that will help with this issue is flying the front risers out instead of just releasing them, dependent of course on how deep you get them... I have jump XFire2s at 1.4-2.0 wingloads.




BMFin

Nov 19, 2012, 6:08 PM
Post #15 of 45 (5298 views)
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Re: [dharma1976] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
one thing that will help with this issue is flying the front risers out instead of just releasing them, dependent of course on how deep you get them... I have jump XFire2s at 1.4-2.0 wingloads.

Im not sure if I would agree. My experience is that if you do a 270 with at least a medium time rotation with an XF2, the canopy will start planing out by itself even if you would be putting you total body weight to the front risers. Therefore it wouldnt make any difference to let them go fast or low, since the only thing you are doing anyways is chin-ups, from the risers. The risers would be already extended to their full lenght anyway at this point. Therefore there is no loose front riser to release.

I jump an XF2 @ 2.0, but I have never thought that a lightly loaded one would pop up, after an efficient rotation, but I would guess it could happen. The XF2 has quite flat trim and short recovery arc for sure.

I would really wish to see a video of this pop up, since I have a hard time believing it could happen. IMO the swoop would need to be in corner for this to happen even in theory, but I could be wrong..


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 19, 2012, 7:08 PM
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Re: [BMFin] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Usually it happens when your slightly high on the bottom end of your swoop. Or atleast i think thats how i remember it.

i did find one video of it happening, though i had a bunch i deleted. Only happened twice to me on this day.

the jolt you see is me releasing the fronts.

http://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be


BMFin

Nov 19, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #17 of 45 (5252 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

ok, well you werent in the corner there at least. The 270 looks smooth and efficient.

The one thing that remains unseen from the video is if there is any brake input as you let go of your fronts?


(This post was edited by BMFin on Nov 19, 2012, 7:44 PM)


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 20, 2012, 5:57 AM
Post #18 of 45 (5146 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ok, well you werent in the corner there at least. The 270 looks smooth and efficient.

The one thing that remains unseen from the video is if there is any brake input as you let go of your fronts?

Nope, i originally thought that is what it had to be, but it happened enough times and i asked people watching me what they saw.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 20, 2012, 6:01 AM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Speed equals lift. Get enough of one, and you'll have too much of the other. Wingloading is a factor, less weight requires less lift to result in a climb.




phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 20, 2012, 10:34 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

6 to 12 months is not a short recovery. Tongue


RichLees

Nov 20, 2012, 1:21 PM
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

scenario: pop-up due to change of angle of incidence as pilot overtakes the wing. easier on "short" recovery canopies than dive-monsters.

my hypothesis -
dump the front risers and the canopy pitches up, catching more drag and going back relative to pilot. this means the incidence has changed so the lift changes. with enough drag (eg brakes) or change in incidence, you pop back up.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Nov 20, 2012, 3:50 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You have to be low on the crossfire to get a good swoop out of it ( at that loading)

I don't agree with that statement at all.

In the 1.5 range it will perform well, you can get good, smooth swoops out of it, of course you'll feel like when you jump a smaller one loaded in the 1.7-1.9 range that it's "better" but that has more to do with you having more jumps, having less drag and the ability to generate more speed.

I agree with Dave. Sure, if you bang a quick, shitty turn then your turn is going to be much lower than under a crossbraced canopy, but there is simply no reason to be banging quick, shitty turns is there?

BTW: when you could still be competitive under nine-cells in the PRO category of the PPPB and, later, PST, we were throwing 270's as high as 800 feet under our Cobalts. Check the old records and see how me, Butts, and Harrell did back in the stone age against early FX's, VX's, and Velos.

Chuck




castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Nov 20, 2012, 8:56 PM
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Re: [stayhigh] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I have yet to find anyone who will sell me a Petra 169




f94sbu  (D 16017)

Nov 21, 2012, 5:10 AM
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Re: [BMFin] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

What dharma1976 probably meant was that instead of just letting go of the dive loops when you are done with your turn, you gradually let your hands up so that you end up in full flight. I have often seen people just release the dive loops with their fingers, thus keeping the canopy in quarter breaks (or so) and wondering why their canopy is auto pitching. Having video of the landing is key to tell if this is whats happening or if it is the inevitable auto pitch that is en effect here.


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 21, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Re: [f94sbu] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

Getting a controlled release of the fronts made a big difference to my plane-out and the speed of my swoops. Also meant I had to start my turn higher to allow for the increased dive.


hparrish  (D 25090)

Nov 21, 2012, 1:40 PM
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Re: [f94sbu] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What dharma1976 probably meant was that instead of just letting go of the dive loops when you are done with your turn, you gradually let your hands up so that you end up in full flight. I have often seen people just release the dive loops with their fingers, thus keeping the canopy in quarter breaks (or so) and wondering why their canopy is auto pitching. Having video of the landing is key to tell if this is whats happening or if it is the inevitable auto pitch that is en effect here.

I agree with this. Should be a slower transition from fronts to rears. This could be his problem.


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Nov 21, 2012, 5:01 PM
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Re: [hparrish] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I would add that the OP's turn is probably rushed. Start higher and slow everything down.

Although the xfire2 does have a reputation to recover more abruptly, this is probably only noticable at lower wing loadings: I don't find the effect pronounced at all (I jump a 109 @ 1.8). Slowing things down should help; starting lower and increasing the speed of rotation should be avoided.


trigger  (D 101390)

Nov 22, 2012, 1:28 AM
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Re: [Pendragon] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/...hPY&feature=plcp

Crossfire2 falling from the sky @ 3mins in this video and it isn't recovering abruptly

Not POV but Air 2 Air


(This post was edited by trigger on Nov 22, 2012, 1:33 AM)


ClippedWings

Nov 22, 2012, 6:46 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Problem with super short recovery arc canopy is that, it almsot makes the swooper to turn lower to the ground, and they all expect that canopy itself will pull it out of the dive.

and sometimes that same canopy will not come out of the dive like used to and if you are still waiting for your canopy to do its thing, you are too late.

With short recovery arc canopy you need to be super precise. with canopy that can sink in, it is much easier and safer imo.

This is exactly what got me in a wheelchair (not counting my lack of skill). I've been struggling with pop ups exactly like that in the video before, sometimes I would get a "decent" lucky turf surf, but most of the time it was a struggle and cursing because of those pop ups.. I was using a Safire 2 129 with 10 kg lead which made my WL of around 1.3 (doing 270's).

That faithful day I popped up 3 times and I thought I'll just go harder on my last one to get a decent swoop and bam I got myself into ground.. I didn't increase my rotation that day, I only made it slower and it was enough for me to not react quick enough and whack myself..

It's true that canopies with short recovery demand a lot of skill and good judgement, furthermore emphasizing that it's not a good tool to learn to swoop on. Now I know why Velo's, Katana's and PD in general is the swoopers choice..

This was one of those when I didn't know wtf I did right, but it worked out "decently".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue_3xzfU4YU

And this again, the failed one, after 3 pop ups, the 4th deciding one which got me, I thought that it will level out on it's own and might even pop up like always, but I was wrong and from a longer rotation, not a bigger one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk

Be Safe


(This post was edited by ClippedWings on Nov 22, 2012, 6:54 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 22, 2012, 7:49 AM
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Re: [ClippedWings] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's true that canopies with short recovery demand a lot of skill and good judgement, furthermore emphasizing that it's not a good tool to learn to swoop on. Now I know why Velo's, Katana's and PD in general is the swoopers choice..

A XF2 (which is what the OP is jumping) is not a canopy with a short recovery arc.

I don't think anyone is suggesting learning on a Katana or a Velo. Those are canopies for those who already have mastered the basics of HP canopy flight with a more forgiving canopy.


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 22, 2012, 8:12 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Your wrong it DOES have a short recovery arc.

on a 99 at 1.5-1.6 it was right at 150ft according to my neptune


(This post was edited by SRI85 on Nov 22, 2012, 8:43 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 22, 2012, 9:38 AM
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your wrong it DOES have a short recovery arc.

on a 99 at 1.5-1.6 it was right at 150ft according to my neptune

Compared to what?

Compared to a Velo/Katana - yes, it's shorter.
Compared to a Pulse, Stiletto, Heatwave etc, etc - it's longer.

Also, what exactly are you measuring at 150ft?


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Nov 23, 2012, 11:44 AM
Post #36 of 45 (2372 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your wrong it DOES have a short recovery arc.

on a 99 at 1.5-1.6 it was right at 150ft according to my neptune

Perhaps if turn yourself into an unguided meat missile with a hard quick yank on a toggle or front riser like we did fifteen years ago although most of us learned that you get more speed with a slower turn that accelerates the canopy longer from a higher altitude. Slower higher turns are also readily adjusted to let you enjoy a nice accurate swoop when you arrive higher or lower than you planned.

Get some canopy coaching. It'll make you both faster and safer.


BMFin

Nov 24, 2012, 8:18 AM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you should go back and watch the video he provided. Definetly not the type of unguided toggle yank you are talking about. IMO the turn looks nice and smooth and has good accuracy.


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 25, 2012, 11:27 AM
Post #38 of 45 (2217 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Your wrong it DOES have a short recovery arc.

on a 99 at 1.5-1.6 it was right at 150ft according to my neptune

Compared to what?

Compared to a Velo/Katana - yes, it's shorter.
Compared to a Pulse, Stiletto, Heatwave etc, etc - it's longer.

Also, what exactly are you measuring at 150ft?

Those are all flat trimmed canopies, (dont know why you through the pulse into that mix) they may not all have the same recovery arc, but they are all relative and can be classified as short.

To measure the recovery arc, i used a chest mounted neptune, and used a go pro with an extended mount on my helmet facing down. (oh no! a snag hazard!) A frame by frame review will give you a good idea of the recovery arc. I attached a pic to show.


(This post was edited by SRI85 on Nov 25, 2012, 11:28 AM)
Attachments: recoveryarc.jpg (85.8 KB)


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 25, 2012, 11:51 AM
Post #39 of 45 (2211 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Velo/Katana

Those are all flat trimmed canopies,

Excuse me? It's going to be hard to find anything much steeper trimmed than those two.


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 25, 2012, 11:52 AM
Post #40 of 45 (2209 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To measure the recovery arc, i used a chest mounted neptune, and used a go pro with an extended mount on my helmet facing down. (oh no! a snag hazard!) A frame by frame review will give you a good idea of the recovery arc. I attached a pic to show.

So are you measuring from the point of release of the front risers to the plane out?


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 25, 2012, 12:01 PM
Post #41 of 45 (2205 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
To measure the recovery arc, i used a chest mounted neptune, and used a go pro with an extended mount on my helmet facing down. (oh no! a snag hazard!) A frame by frame review will give you a good idea of the recovery arc. I attached a pic to show.

So are you measuring from the point of release of the front risers to the plane out?

I was referring to the stiletto and heatwave. Not velo and katana.

yes, measuring at the point i release front risers to plane out.


piisfish

Nov 26, 2012, 12:35 AM
Post #42 of 45 (2138 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Velo/Katana

Those are all flat trimmed canopies,

Excuse me? It's going to be hard to find anything much steeper trimmed than those two.
Neos, but you are correct, they are steep canopies, at least in my opinion


holie  (A License)

Nov 29, 2012, 7:14 AM
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Re: [ClippedWings] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

... welcome back! It's a pleasure to read your post!

Smile


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Dec 10, 2012, 12:07 PM
Post #44 of 45 (1770 views)
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Re: [holie] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Follow up to my original post. After checking all of my line trims, I lengthened my brake lines by 2.5 cm. The climb has drastically reduced, maybee down to 3 or 4 feet. Which I can live with, I think.


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Dec 12, 2012, 11:02 AM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Follow up to my original post. After checking all of my line trims, I lengthened my brake lines by 2.5 cm. The climb has drastically reduced, maybee down to 3 or 4 feet. Which I can live with, I think.

I would really like to add that you should really work on slowing things down, not in progression, but in time and space. Try different things at altitude to see what the response is, note them. you will find a lot of things that you can put in your swooping toolbox within this time. You will be able to get rid of the pop. I also moved myself to the longest risers my arms would reach to add recovery time to my crossfires. that helped as well but definitely bring your turn up for that one.

Good luck with it.
Dave



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