Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size?

 


-Joey-  (B License)

Nov 12, 2012, 6:46 PM
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DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? Can't Post

Just wanted to poll some of the DZO's and DZ staffs around here.

At what point (ie, wing loading vs jumps) would you tell a jumper, who brought their own gear, that their canopy selection is too small and they are staying on the ground? I don't mean the point at which you disagree with them and shake your head at their selection, but where you actually say no you're not jumping that here.

As someone who may be shopping for gear soon I want to be right on the line without crossing it.


jzzsxm  (B License)

Nov 12, 2012, 6:52 PM
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

This seems like a really dangerous idea.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Nov 12, 2012, 7:05 PM
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your profile says you jump at Kapowsin. Go talk to them, their staff has an incredible amount of experience and are extremely helpful. They'll point you in the right direction.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 12, 2012, 7:47 PM
Post #4 of 72 (8710 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just wanted to poll some of the DZO's and DZ staffs around here.

At what point (ie, wing loading vs jumps) would you tell a jumper, who brought their own gear, that their canopy selection is too small and they are staying on the ground? I don't mean the point at which you disagree with them and shake your head at their selection, but where you actually say no you're not jumping that here.

As someone who may be shopping for gear soon I want to be right on the line without crossing it.

*sigh*


wasatchrider

Nov 12, 2012, 8:12 PM
Post #5 of 72 (8683 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

when first started reading you post I thought you were trying to stop someone from getting hurt but it seems like someone needs to save you.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 12, 2012, 8:22 PM
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Re: [wasatchrider] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

You might want to edit to direct that to -Joey- instead of me.


wasatchrider

Nov 12, 2012, 8:50 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry thats what I was trying to do


grimmie  (D 18890)

Nov 12, 2012, 10:05 PM
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a DZO. Speak with your own DZO before you buy a canopy. And I'm sure I speak for my staff also.


-Joey-  (B License)

Nov 12, 2012, 10:29 PM
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Re: [voilsb] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking more along the lines of DZO's in general since I know I'll be moving in the summer but am not sure exactly where. It will either be MA (in which case I'll go to Jumptown) or Houston (in which case I'll go to Spaceland).


vanessa.potts  (B License)

Nov 12, 2012, 11:01 PM
Post #10 of 72 (8553 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jump number and canopy piloting, currency, discipline, etc play a huge role in what you should buy.
Also, I saw you had a post for a thread Katana vs a crossfire2. If you're a new jumper you don't need a high performance, elliptical, or highly loaded canopy.
Here's the downsizing chart we have posted at our DZ that our staff sticks to.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Don't be scared to buy big, canopies are replaceable, you aren't.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 13, 2012, 5:21 AM
Post #11 of 72 (8432 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was thinking more along the lines of DZO's in general

Don't lie to us, you weren't thinking at all.

Canopy size is not related to what you can 'get away with' at a given DZ. It's related to your own skills/training/ability, and the point at which a DZO would toss you out on your ass has nothing to do with that.

If you can't see that getting anywhere near the point that a DZO would turn down your business is a terrible idea, and real threat to your health and well-being, you might want to quit while you're ahead (and still walking/breathing).

Do a search on this site for Ted Nelson and Sangi.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Nov 13, 2012, 5:21 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 13, 2012, 5:22 AM
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As someone who may be shopping for gear soon I want to be right on the line without crossing it.

The line never sits still. Get close enough and you'll eventually cross it. Hell, there's a pretty good chance that you'll cross it even if you don't try to get close.

Fire burns. Play at your own risk.


-Joey-  (B License)

Nov 13, 2012, 5:41 AM
Post #13 of 72 (8395 views)
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Re: [vanessa.potts] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Here's the downsizing chart we have posted at our DZ that our staff sticks to.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf
Thanks; so according to that chart I'm in the 150-160 range for square footage.

So I see you jump at Spaceland; how far do they go when it comes to laying down the law? If you're new on the DZ do they actually demand to see "your papers" in a german voice, put you on a scale and unpack your main?

Or is it just if they happen to see someone face-plant in the landing area, pull them aside later and check some stuff out?


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #14 of 72 (8349 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're worried a DZO might ground you for your upcoming canopy choice but you're NOT worried your upcoming canopy choice is likely kill you?

That's some pretty messed up priorities.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:27 AM
Post #15 of 72 (8318 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was thinking more along the lines of DZO's in general since I know I'll be moving in the summer but am not sure exactly where. It will either be MA (in which case I'll go to Jumptown) or Houston (in which case I'll go to Spaceland).
My advice still stands. Contact any of the Farringtons, or Luke, Jeff, or John Mitchell or really almost anyone there. I jumped there when I bought my first gear.

But if you insist, contact diablopilot (http://www.dropzone.com/...sername=diablopilot]). He's an S&TA at Spaceland.


ABonito  (C License)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #16 of 72 (8307 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Joey, i was reading your post and i was just like ... uau !!! ...
If you are thinking that way, really i think its best you quit the sport before you get hurt !!
You should get a canopy that is applicable to your skills, experience, etc, etc.

Be safe


monkycndo  (D License)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #17 of 72 (8304 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Asking how small you can go is like asking how close to the campfire you will be allowed to play. Only takes one tiny wrong move and you get burned.Pirate


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:40 AM
Post #18 of 72 (8285 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Just wanted to poll some of the DZO's and DZ staffs around here.

At what point (ie, wing loading vs jumps) would you tell a jumper, who brought their own gear, that their canopy selection is too small and they are staying on the ground? I don't mean the point at which you disagree with them and shake your head at their selection, but where you actually say no you're not jumping that here.

As someone who may be shopping for gear soon I want to be right on the line without crossing it.

*sigh*

http://www.dropzone.com/...8;page=unread#unread

Bigger sigh.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:52 AM
Post #19 of 72 (8259 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As someone who may be shopping for gear soon I want to be right on the line without crossing it.

Troll... or...Read about ya in the incidents forum soon I guess.


YvonneWiggers  (D License)

Nov 13, 2012, 7:51 AM
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In Holland they're not only DZ rules, but they're national rules. These rules are the 'do not exceed'-limit, that means you might not be ready to be on the edge of what's allowed. Don't be an idiot, staying on the conservative side can never hurt you.

http://parachute.nl/...sie_2011-07_juli.pdf

It basically comes down to:
I : wingload max 1,1; at least 170 sqft, can jump a student canopy
II : >25 jumps total, >10 last 12 months: wingload max 1,1; at least 170 sqft, can jump a Pilot
III : >100 jumps total, >25 last 12 months: wingload max 1,3; at least 150 sqft, can jump a Sabre2
IV : >400 jumps total, >50 last 12 months: wingload max 1,5; at least 135 sqft, can jump a Stiletto
V : >700 jumps total, >100 last 12 months: wingload max 1,7, at least 120 sqft, can jump a Katana
VI : >1000 jumps total, no restrictions

If a canopy is not listed, it's automatically classified as catVI.


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Nov 13, 2012, 8:30 AM
Post #21 of 72 (8124 views)
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Re: [YvonneWiggers] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Don't be an idiot, staying on the conservative side can never hurt you.

i have to disagree, thats the funny thing about skydiving, you can get hurt on either side Wink


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Nov 13, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #22 of 72 (8105 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Joey -

You may think this is fun and games. You could probably even get away with jumping a high performance canopy (maybe). My concern at this point, is your attitude. The way you are approaching this whole thing is reckless.

I'd much rather see someone with less skill approach something with the right attitude, then a highly skilled athlete approach something with a poor attitude.

Its not about jump numbers. Its about attitude, experience, approach and goals. It sounds like you only have an end game without considering the path to get there. Please consider this as constructive criticism. You may be entirely different in person, but all we can go by is your reckless approach on the internet.

If you approached me at the DZ with this attitude, I wouldn't let you jump a Navigator 260.


(This post was edited by jacketsdb23 on Nov 13, 2012, 8:41 AM)


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Nov 13, 2012, 8:48 AM
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a better question for you, without calling you an idiot or telling you you're going to die. I'm dead serious with these questions, so I'd appreciate an answer.

1) How many jumps do you have?

2) Why do feel that you need the smallest canopy? Are you bringing skills from somewhere else?

3) What are you trying to accomplish by getting the smallest canopy possible?

4) What canopies have you jumped in the past?

So, as you saw above, there's a bunch of anal people above that don't care about you (not all of them though). They only care that you want to jump a small canopy and that's all they hear. I think I'd rather have an idea of why this thought is in your head, and then work with you to figure out what the best option for you would be. Maybe help you understand why the people above think you're crazy.

Just to be clear..I will not tell you what to buy. That's a discussion you'll need to have with your instructors, or the S&TA at the DZ you choose. I will help you understand why the people above are saying what they're saying.


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Nov 13, 2012, 8:53 AM)


peek  (D 8884)

Nov 13, 2012, 9:07 AM
Post #24 of 72 (8041 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Don't be an idiot, staying on the conservative side can never hurt you.

i have to disagree, thats the funny thing about skydiving, you can get hurt on either side Wink

Do you have an example? I honestly can't think of when having a more conservative (canopy) can be a bad thing, unless you jump in high winds and are more likely to be drug or have a bad spot, or if the canopy is so large that you don't have the strength or flare stroke length to flair it properly, or something like that. Or perhaps if you jump at a DZ with multiple aircraft and you stay in the air long enough to interfere with the next load.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 13, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #25 of 72 (7987 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

>i have to disagree, thats the funny thing about skydiving, you can get hurt on either side

While literally true, that's like saying "you can get killed driving drunk, and you can get killed driving sober." One is a much better idea if your goal is survival.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 13, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #26 of 72 (3916 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

 When asked how much his yacht cost, J.P. Morgan replied: "If you have to ask, you can't afford it,"

Your question reminds me of that. If you have to ask where the line is, you probably should not be anywhere near it.


YvonneWiggers  (D License)

Nov 13, 2012, 11:13 AM
Post #27 of 72 (3891 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Don't be an idiot, staying on the conservative side can never hurt you.

i have to disagree, thats the funny thing about skydiving, you can get hurt on either side Wink

Yes, you can get hurt either way, but like I said, you won't get hurt from staying on the conservative side. I've never heard of an incident that would be prevented had the jumper been less conservative.


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 13, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #28 of 72 (3880 views)
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Re: [YvonneWiggers] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Don't be an idiot, staying on the conservative side can never hurt you.

i have to disagree, thats the funny thing about skydiving, you can get hurt on either side Wink

Yes, you can get hurt either way, but like I said, you won't get hurt from staying on the conservative side. I've never heard of an incident that would be prevented had the jumper been less conservative.

Jumping a big ass Navigator in winds that were a bit high for my loading on that canopy and a bad spot, I ended up landing backwards in an open field about 2 miles from the LZ.

Had I not noticed the situation when I did, I probably wouldn't have spiraled down to get to the ground before I got pushed over a large set of trees.

So, yes, you can get hurt from conservative but you are MUCH more likely to get hurt from going the other way when you're not ready for it.

I load my sport canopy at about 1.3 (Safire2 169). While I could probably easily slide right into a 149, I see no reason to.


vanessa.potts  (B License)

Nov 13, 2012, 12:16 PM
Post #29 of 72 (3831 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Here's the downsizing chart we have posted at our DZ that our staff sticks to.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf
Thanks; so according to that chart I'm in the 150-160 range for square footage.

So I see you jump at Spaceland; how far do they go when it comes to laying down the law? If you're new on the DZ do they actually demand to see "your papers" in a german voice, put you on a scale and unpack your main?

Or is it just if they happen to see someone face-plant in the landing area, pull them aside later and check some stuff out?

They're a very safe DZ. When you get there they'll want to see your paperwork, licenses, find out what you're jumping, and other questions to make sure you're as safe as possible. I'm not sure how rigorously they'll check you, but I've seen staff tell people they can't jump a certain canopy because of safety issues. They're as safe as possible while also allowing jumpers to grow in their canopy skills. It's best to call the DZ, talk to them, and see what all they allow.
You shouldn't want to push a DZ's limit on your first set of gear. The gear is replaceable, but you're not.
Also,

How many jumps do you have?
What have you been jumping?
What is your current wing loading?
What is your exit weight?
When you buy new gear what will your new wing loading be?
Have you taken a canopy piloting course?


This is also a helpful link. Once you can do everything on this list with the canopy you're currently on, then you may be able to downsize.
This is the downsizing check list:

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 13, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #30 of 72 (3710 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Here's the downsizing chart we have posted at our DZ that our staff sticks to.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf
Thanks; so according to that chart I'm in the 150-160 range for square footage.

So I see you jump at Spaceland; how far do they go when it comes to laying down the law? If you're new on the DZ do they actually demand to see "your papers" in a german voice, put you on a scale and unpack your main?

Or is it just if they happen to see someone face-plant in the landing area, pull them aside later and check some stuff out?

DZ management at Spaceland drops the axe when necessary, but they don't usually have to. Wink

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


Krip  (Student)

Nov 13, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #31 of 72 (3709 views)
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Re: [vanessa.potts] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Here's the downsizing chart we have posted at our DZ that our staff sticks to.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf
Thanks; so according to that chart I'm in the 150-160 range for square footage.

So I see you jump at Spaceland; how far do they go when it comes to laying down the law? If you're new on the DZ do they actually demand to see "your papers" in a german voice, put you on a scale and unpack your main?

Or is it just if they happen to see someone face-plant in the landing area, pull them aside later and check some stuff out?

They're a very safe DZ. When you get there they'll want to see your paperwork, licenses, find out what you're jumping, and other questions to make sure you're as safe as possible. I'm not sure how rigorously they'll check you, but I've seen staff tell people they can't jump a certain canopy because of safety issues. They're as safe as possible while also allowing jumpers to grow in their canopy skills. It's best to call the DZ, talk to them, and see what all they allow.
You shouldn't want to push a DZ's limit on your first set of gear. The gear is replaceable, but you're not.
Also,

How many jumps do you have?
What have you been jumping?
What is your current wing loading?
What is your exit weight?
When you buy new gear what will your new wing loading be?
Have you taken a canopy piloting course?


This is also a helpful link. Once you can do everything on this list with the canopy you're currently on, then you may be able to downsize.
This is the downsizing check list:

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html


Hi V

(Sarcasm)

Paper work is sooo retroSmile

Lying is Cool

Dumb is in.

If the dude want to push itPirate

Lieing is Cool

The ground doesn't forget and push's back a lot harder.Smile

I'm calling a troll.


-Joey-  (B License)

Nov 13, 2012, 5:23 PM
Post #32 of 72 (3611 views)
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Re: [Krip] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The ground doesn't forget and push's back a lot harder.Smile
I'm calling a troll.
Actually by Newton's 3rd law it pushes the same Smile

I don't see what's the big deal with me asking an honest question to gauge how the secret canopy police operate. The canopy gestapo are everywhere and it's helpful to know their tactics so you can maximize your amount of fun while minimize your risk of having it taken away.

Anyway I'd rather this just be closed as I was in a bad state of mind when starting it over a bad jumping experience.


(This post was edited by -Joey- on Nov 13, 2012, 5:25 PM)


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Nov 13, 2012, 5:34 PM
Post #33 of 72 (3600 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

sell you my velo 103. no need to waste time with non-xbrased shit!


grimmie  (D 18890)

Nov 13, 2012, 5:45 PM
Post #34 of 72 (3590 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The ground doesn't forget and push's back a lot harder.Smile
I'm calling a troll.
Actually by Newton's 3rd law it pushes the same Smile

I don't see what's the big deal with me asking an honest question to gauge how the secret canopy police operate. The canopy gestapo are everywhere and it's helpful to know their tactics so you can maximize your amount of fun while minimize your risk of having it taken away.

Anyway I'd rather this just be closed as I was in a bad state of mind when starting it over a bad jumping experience.



Maximizing your fun. Good point. However helicopter rides are usually more fun when you can look out of the windows.


-Joey-  (B License)

Nov 13, 2012, 5:59 PM
Post #35 of 72 (3576 views)
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Re: [grimmie] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay I get it. If I downsize too quickly I'm for sure going to die. Point taken.


tmccann  (A 61009)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:03 PM
Post #36 of 72 (3572 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was in a bad state of mind when starting it over a bad jumping experience.

Care to share?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:10 PM
Post #37 of 72 (3563 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay I get it. If I downsize too quickly I'm for sure going to die. Point taken.
Not for sure. Just very likely. Has it really taken this long of a thread for you to get that point?

If the guidelines say 160, stay there and get some experience. You'll stay out of the hospital/morgue. Wink


MarsGirl  (D License)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:23 PM
Post #38 of 72 (3545 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i have to disagree, thats the funny thing about skydiving, you can get hurt on either side Wink

What I took this to mean is, don't get fooled into thinking that just because you make conservative choices, you can't get hurt in this sport.

I've seen many people who don't feel the need to further their canopy flying ability because they fly a conservative canopy. Increasing your knowledge and skill in canopy flight will only increase the chances of your next meeting with the ground going well.

To the OP, to experienced people in this sport your question sounds like this: What is the maximum number of bullets you can use while playing Russian roulette before someone takes the gun away from you?

edited to take out "safe". The OP never mentioned he wanted to be safe.


(This post was edited by MarsGirl on Nov 13, 2012, 6:30 PM)


DJL  (C License)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:35 PM
Post #39 of 72 (3517 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swiRQ20HcF0


yoink

Nov 13, 2012, 6:35 PM
Post #40 of 72 (3515 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

The point of skydiving isn't to jump as small a canopy as possible. It's not a goal you should even have in your mind. It's not a goal, period. I can't think of a single discipline where the person with the smallest canopy is the winner.

Your canopy is a tool that you pick for the job you have in mind. It's not the job itself. Wink

Honestly - the only people who might think you're awesome for jumping a small canopy are absolute newbies, or morons you want to stay as far as possible from.


Pick a skill-based goal that you're aiming for. It may be you want to do wingsuiting in the future, or you want to get into swooping. Now come up with a progression that lets you get there.

Given we know nothing about you, I'm going to assume you're right at the beginning, so for swooping find a mentor and be honest about what you want to do. They'll teach you drills and skills that you can develop as your jump numbers grow that are appropriate for your skill level. When you've mastered (MASTERED, not just 'done a few') those then it's time to drop a canopy size and remaster them, all the while adding more experience.

You're asking questions that translate to 'I want to be as dangerous as possible, while administratively getting away with it' and that raises HUGE red flags about your entire atttitude - now that may not be your intent - communicating over a forum can easily give the wrong impression.

How about this - what do you want to achieve? Simply answer that, and we'll be able to give good advice.
Even if you say 'I want to fly the smallest possible canopy in the shortest possible time', there's an answer. (Find a kickass canopy coach and HAMMER out the jumps, but progress in stages).


(This post was edited by yoink on Nov 13, 2012, 6:37 PM)


mahonie10  (B License)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:40 PM
Post #41 of 72 (3516 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

i'll sell you my Storm 170! wait no, I love that canopy. I'm sorrySmile


-Joey-  (B License)

Nov 13, 2012, 6:59 PM
Post #42 of 72 (3498 views)
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Re: [yoink] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How about this - what do you want to achieve? Simply answer that, and we'll be able to give good advice.
Even if you say 'I want to fly the smallest possible canopy in the shortest possible time', there's an answer. (Find a kickass canopy coach and HAMMER out the jumps, but progress in stages).
I have my sights set on swooping.


blueblur  (A 64923)

Nov 13, 2012, 7:11 PM
Post #43 of 72 (3475 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do the others and yourself a favor and give them some history on your jump history. You have said nothing about your current skill level despite numerous requests.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 13, 2012, 7:11 PM
Post #44 of 72 (3472 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
How about this - what do you want to achieve? Simply answer that, and we'll be able to give good advice.
Even if you say 'I want to fly the smallest possible canopy in the shortest possible time', there's an answer. (Find a kickass canopy coach and HAMMER out the jumps, but progress in stages).
I have my sights set on swooping.

Good, go to the Swooping forum and read what all the experienced swoopers have said. Also search for Sangi and read all of that disaster, since it applies here.


loch1957

Nov 13, 2012, 7:18 PM
Post #45 of 72 (3463 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

You got a lot of good advice, taking it or not is your choice. Just remember if you cant control your canopy your not just putting you at risk . I'm not that good yet, I personally wouldn't want to be anywhere near another jumper who isn't competent. We all jump because its fun and we love it, hopefully others wont kill us.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Nov 13, 2012, 7:20 PM
Post #46 of 72 (3464 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Since under your other name on here you are talking about having a cutaway on student gear recently I am going to say that swooping is a long ways off and you need to start taking canopy courses as soon as possible to avoid bad habits.


skinnay

Nov 13, 2012, 7:54 PM
Post #47 of 72 (3437 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

just make sure you wear a camera!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 13, 2012, 8:21 PM
Post #48 of 72 (3419 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Right now, I think the limit is 39 sq.ft.


Krip  (Student)

Nov 13, 2012, 9:30 PM
Post #49 of 72 (3385 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay I get it. If I downsize too quickly I'm for sure going to die. Point taken.

Joey

Don't worry be happySmile

You may not die when you screw upSmile, a para (sangi)Frownor quadFrownFrown (last incident a snore) is possible. Life can go on.

Even if this thread doesn't help you it may help someone elseSmile Thats a good thing.
R.


jf951  (D License)

Nov 14, 2012, 6:04 AM
Post #50 of 72 (3297 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
*snip*
I have my sights set on swooping.

-Joey- buddy ol' pal, i think i have some friends that can help you out. have you heard of SoFPiDaRF?
(School of fast progression in downsizing and radical flying)
if not you should look into them

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sofpidarf/

as long as you show up with the most chill money baller liquid sky kit on the market no one will question that Comp Velo 79 you're about to fly.

and remember
Power first
Control second
Safety third
never give up the gates
and always, ALWAYS trust your rears
Wink


jf951  (D License)

Nov 14, 2012, 6:13 AM
Post #51 of 72 (4442 views)
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Re: [jf951] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.facebook.com/...p;type=1&theater


(This post was edited by jf951 on Nov 14, 2012, 6:35 AM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Nov 14, 2012, 7:16 AM
Post #52 of 72 (4393 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The ground doesn't forget and push's back a lot harder.Smile
I'm calling a troll.
Actually by Newton's 3rd law it pushes the same Smile

I don't see what's the big deal with me asking an honest question to gauge how the secret canopy police operate. The canopy gestapo are everywhere and it's helpful to know their tactics so you can maximize your amount of fun while minimize your risk of having it taken away.

Anyway I'd rather this just be closed as I was in a bad state of mind when starting it over a bad jumping experience.

The "Secret Canopy Police"? Really?

If there really was a "Canopy Gestapo" then we probably wouldn't have the amount of incidents that are "flying a perfectly good canopy into the ground" that we do.

Look through the incidents forum. There's a lot of examples of someone showing up at a DZ and jumping a canopy they couldn't handle. And getting hurt. And it often turns out that they were either warned about their choice or not allowed to jump it somewhere else.

The reality is that you could probably jump just about anything at a lot of DZs, and until you show them that you aren't capable of handling it they won't stop you. And there's nothing stopping you from having 2 rigs. One that has a canopy big enough to satisfy the "Canopy Gestapo", the other small enough for you to "maximize your fun" (which will only work until someone sees that you are a danger either to yourself or others under the small one).

Keep in mind that the DZ is a business. It wants to sell you jump tickets.
But it doesn't want to have to shut down operations to wait for the ambulance, helicopter or coroner.

They want you to have fun, but they don't want risk having you to take it away from everyone else.

And if you are interested in swooping, read this thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

AggieDave offers some really valuable advice in posts 8 & 13. There's the usual garbage, but if you can ignore that, there's a lot in there.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Nov 14, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #53 of 72 (4385 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have my sights set on swooping.


...you have your sites set on trying to look cool, screw the consequences. Enjoy the ride, i'll remember the name.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Nov 14, 2012, 7:25 AM
Post #54 of 72 (4381 views)
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Re: [FB1609] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have my sights set on swooping.


...you have your sites set on trying to look cool, screw the consequences. Enjoy the ride, i'll remember the name.

best reply ever. lol.LaughLaughLaugh


Skydiverick  (D 17261)

Nov 14, 2012, 10:38 AM
Post #55 of 72 (4255 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Young Padowan,

SoFPiDaRF is for YOU! How I respect and admire your desire and determination to be the best canopy pilot in the world by downsizing your canopy to be 'right on the line without crossing it.' Remember always that you are a grown ass man and you can make your OWN decisions. Don't let any of those namby pampy wussies above try to dissuade you from your God Given destiny! Go straight for a Velo 74...and remember it packs nearly as big as a Stiletto 120! No one (including the DZO or the Canopy Gestapo) will know the difference until you crank out that amazing 720 and surf the entire length of the LZ in a blind man and then run out at the end. By then it will be too late for the DZO or staff to tell you otherwise as they and the entire crowd of whuffos will be worshiping the very ground you just swooped. Why waste a couple years and a thousand jumps under oversized canopies learning basic control skills?? You clearly have mad skills already and so I would REALLY suggest you watch the video 'Can you teach me to swoop?' which is viewable at www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGBe-Rh7o4U and especially remember the correct opening altitude mentioned near the end of the video. In no time at all, you and most of your body parts will be flying hundreds of yards through the gates so fast that everything will be a blur. An amazingly red blur. Just remember not to use your toggles. Trust your rears and never give up the gates. All the great swoopers know that it is Power first, control second, safety third.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 14, 2012, 10:55 AM
Post #56 of 72 (4232 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't see what's the big deal with me asking an honest question to gauge how the secret canopy police operate. The canopy gestapo are everywhere and it's helpful to know their tactics so you can maximize your amount of fun while minimize your risk of having it taken away.

Here is my bottom line.... Do what you want, but don't hurt or kill me, my loved ones, or my skydiving buddies.

That sounds easy...however there have been too many jumpers minding their own business under slower canopies who got killed by some cowboy swooping into them.

BTW... Please make sure that your point of impact is not on the runway. If you obstruct the runway, we have to stop jumping until you are removed.


F364  (F 364)

Nov 14, 2012, 11:01 AM
Post #57 of 72 (4223 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Joey your kopping lots of flak here. Why don't you just buy a wing suit and go base jumping like Jokke Sommer? They don't have rules and then your canopy would be the smallest Wink


yoink

Nov 14, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #58 of 72 (4132 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
How about this - what do you want to achieve? Simply answer that, and we'll be able to give good advice.
Even if you say 'I want to fly the smallest possible canopy in the shortest possible time', there's an answer. (Find a kickass canopy coach and HAMMER out the jumps, but progress in stages).
I have my sights set on swooping.

OK.

1) Now. Do as Aggie suggests and go to the swooping forum.
2) Be honest about your experience and goals, and start looking for a coach. Nobody wants you NOT to swoop, people just want you to go about it the right way and the reason for that isn't to limit how fast you progress - it's because swooping is like a pyramid of skills with the bottom layer being a solid foundation in canopy flight, accuracy, all that good stuff. The top layer is that sick 720 rotation with a 700ft surf, but you CAN'T do that without the layers beneath and a good coach will help you through all of those.
3) Most importantly at the moment, you HAVE to understand that you don't need a small canopy to start swoop lessons. Yeah, you'll need a highly loaded crossbrace for a 600' surf eventually, but simply having the gear doesn't mean you'll get the result - you need the skills and experience to make the gear perform, so focus on getting those and the results and canopy progression will come naturally. How fast they come depends on how frequently you jump and your natural talent - some people DO progress faster than others, but it's a case of doing stuff in 800 jumps rather than 1000 for someone else. It's NOT a case of doing something in 100 jumps rather than 1000 - talent doesn't make up for that much difference in experience. Keep that in mind.

Your other option is to ignore everything said here because you know better, and the community at large is just trying to hold you back. Buy a Katana 120, find somewhere to jump it and try to work out how to swoop on your own.
You may think you're better than most. You may think that you'll be conservative, but you're not, and you won't. You WILL get hurt.

Send Sangi a PM - ask him what he thinks about this. I'd be really interested to read his reply.


(This post was edited by yoink on Nov 14, 2012, 12:46 PM)


ClippedWings

Nov 15, 2012, 3:37 AM
Post #59 of 72 (3847 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whatever you're thinking of doing regarding swooping, whatever your reasons are, remember, in the end it's not worth it, it's not worth breaking yourself for this.. And never ever think it's not going to happen to you, life is too random you just never know, being conservative isn't a bad thing, coolness doesn't matter when you're broken or dead.

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk

Edit: The thing is, you can most likely get away with jumping something small and higher performance for a while if you don't do anything with (and even then there are plenty of situations when the factors pile up and you get into that corner not because of yourself, but because of something else, it is very likely to happen), but eventually you will start doing something more with it and that's when the problems kick in..

For once I actually talk from experience here, I know I did get away with a lot of stupid stuff for a while (it was absolute pure luck when I look at it now, no skill), I thought and I a lot of probably think, especially if they save themselves from some trouble once or twice, they think that they will be able to do anytime all the time, so no worries.. wrong, if you don't spend your time piling up thousands of jumps (and actually making them count, not just racking up the numbers) and dedicating yourself to a step by step progression, when you start cutting corners, your luck will run out, it eventually will.. There are very few special people where they have an innate talent for stuff, but for most, it's the experience and step by step learning that got them to the point where they are now and know what they're actually doing (Soul Flyers, PD Factory Team etc).. and even then nobody is safe, look at Jonathan Tagle..

This sport is very expensive and time consuming, if you can't fully commit, don't cut corners. Just accept that, that's how it is. Not all of us are born into a rich family, so because of that you're not going to go and rob a bank now are you?

I honestly thought I was special or somewhat naturally better than others, now I'm in a wheelchair, most likely for life. All I can say is, don't be me or if you are, you have to be one tough son of a bitch to cope with all the shit that's eventually coming for you.. are you able to do that? Smile

I'm not going to lie, I enjoyed at the time all the stupid stuff I did, I enjoyed antagonizing people over that here and elsewhere a lot, I thought that all those rules were crap, I'm getting away with it, so my way must be working, I'll just continue on and make fun of others haha, but in the end, the price was not worth it. There are betters ways to have fun.

Goodluck,
Sangi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_5JeFEipc If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough Wink


(This post was edited by ClippedWings on Nov 15, 2012, 4:48 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 15, 2012, 3:39 AM
Post #60 of 72 (3845 views)
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Re: [ClippedWings] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Kid...GOOD to see you posting! Cool


Shyandinnocent  (D License)

Nov 15, 2012, 3:45 AM
Post #61 of 72 (3851 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Quote:
I don't see what's the big deal with me asking an honest question to gauge how the secret canopy police operate. The canopy gestapo are everywhere and it's helpful to know their tactics so you can maximize your amount of fun while minimize your risk of having it taken away.

I call troll!
And a funny one for a change Smile


longpete  (D 363)

Nov 15, 2012, 6:07 AM
Post #62 of 72 (3774 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Swooping Star
To the tune of “Shooting Star”
Proof That Skydivers are "Bad Company"

Johnny was a schoolboy when he got his first X-braced square,
Velo '89 I think it was, hook-turned without a care.
Got himself a grounding, used to hobble home every night
But he wore a real cool outfit,
Thought "everything’s all right", don't you know?"


Johnny told his CI, "Hey, Dickhead, I'm goin' away.
I'm gonna hit the Swoop circuit, gonna be a big star someday," Yeah.
CI kicked him out the door, tossed his rig in the sand.
"Don't come back again, from now on you are banned!"

Don't you know, yeah yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, don't you know.
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
And all the babes will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are.

Johnny went to DeLand , hooked low on jump number one
Suddenly he's on the bench, his dreams of glory are gone
Watching the loads go by, surprised they fired his ass,
Johnny looked around him and said, "Don't they know I have talent and class?"

Don't you know, don't you know,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, oh,yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star, yeah,
And all the babes will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are, a Swooping Star

Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star, now
And all the babes will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are

Johnny died one day, in a DZ's flower bed,
Low toggle turn, hit the ground with his head
Johnny missed the swoop pond, he thought he'd hooked real fine,
If you listen to the wind you can still hear him whine

Oh oh oh
Don't you know that that I am a Swooping star,
Don't you know, yeah, don't you know,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, yeah,
Don't you know that that I am a Swooping star,
Don't you, don't you,
Don't you, don't you,
Don't you know, don't you know, oh, yeah, you are,
Yeah, a Swooping star, yeah, oh
Oh oh oh oh......
Don't you, don't you know
I am a Swooping star,
Don't you don't you know......


yoink

Nov 15, 2012, 7:32 AM
Post #63 of 72 (3750 views)
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Re: [ClippedWings] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good to see you posting, dude.

I hope Joey listens to you.


Hope your recovery is going as well as possible. Smile


(This post was edited by yoink on Nov 15, 2012, 7:44 AM)


Krip  (Student)

Nov 15, 2012, 10:28 PM
Post #64 of 72 (3565 views)
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Re: [ClippedWings] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Sangi

One jumper to another we love you.

Thanks for posting, we've only seen it happenFrown Your living itFrownFrownFrown

Be wellWink


erdnarob  (D 364)

Nov 16, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #65 of 72 (3406 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Unless the visiting jumper seems to be of low experience (according his/her logbook), I don't see why a DZO would ask the size of the canopy packed in a rig. I believe that after, say, 500 jumps, in 2012, you should be considered as experienced and responsible. I went in France in 1977 for jumping an almost brand new StratoCloud and having just above 200 jumps. The DZO had a look at my rig and said everything was fine. StratoCloud were rare in France at the time. They din't even know what was a rigger.(I had my rigger rating).

Everywhere, some people in charge like to consider all jumpers as babies and irresponsible. IMO, it's an authority abuse. Just a few questions and logbook check will give them a clue.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 17, 2012, 6:25 AM
Post #66 of 72 (3280 views)
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Re: [kallend] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When asked how much his yacht cost, J.P. Morgan replied: "If you have to ask, you can't afford it,"

Your question reminds me of that. If you have to ask where the line is, you probably should not be anywhere near it.

+1


apalagian  (C 3385)

Nov 30, 2012, 8:43 AM
Post #67 of 72 (2241 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no simple answer, I had a DZO try to say I couldnt jump my own gear after I had already logged 100+ on that canopy. if your wing loading is slightly higher than the progression chart, you will get frowned at but they shouldnt ground you. keep in mind they consider your weieght + 30-35 lbs/wing size.

That is about the best, Bad advice I can offer.

Good Luck,
Happy shopping


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Nov 30, 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #68 of 72 (2152 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Joey,

I talked to quite a few folks at the DZ before deciding on a canopy size - all the folks at Kapowsin are very helpful. Chat with Keri, Brett, Dennis, John, Jeff - they're all super helpful.

The guide here is a good one: http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

You can get a ton of speed and performance out of a canopy with a wing loading anywhere between 1 and 1.2.

My canopy is slightly smaller than the guide recommends (150 Spectre), and everything was great until a few months back I jumped at a higher altitude DZ on a no wind day. I didn't do anything crazy (90 degree with more than enough time for canopy to recover), but realized too late just how fast I was coming in and sinking. I finished the second stage of my flare after hitting the ground and getting some seriously painful bruises on my knees (thankfully nothing is broken). This was after a canopy class, and dozens of perfect stand up landings on a 170 at other DZs.

Please be careful downsizing too quickly, I don't want to see you get hurt! I'd like to jump with you again :)

-v


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 30, 2012, 12:25 PM
Post #69 of 72 (2131 views)
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Re: [apalagian] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
you will get frowned at but they shouldnt ground you.

Really? They should expose themselves to the risk of your dumb actions?

Buy your own DZ if you don't like the rules crybaby.


knabe  (F 161)

Dec 2, 2012, 11:51 PM
Post #70 of 72 (1868 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just wanted to poll some of the DZO's and DZ staffs around here.

At what point (ie, wing loading vs jumps) would you tell a jumper, who brought their own gear, that their canopy selection is too small and they are staying on the ground? I don't mean the point at which you disagree with them and shake your head at their selection, but where you actually say no you're not jumping that here.

Hey Joey,

On my DZ, the rules is clear and simple : It's prohibited to frighten the DZ owner !

And I'm really afraid to make administrative paper work after an accident ...

Andreas (really easy "afraidable" !)


yoink

Dec 3, 2012, 2:08 PM
Post #71 of 72 (1750 views)
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Re: [-Joey-] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

So,

it's been a while since you posted this, Joey... what did you do about it?


I didn't see you asking for advice on moving toward swooping in the Canopy control forum as some suggested... maybe I missed it.

Did you go and talk with a local instructor or mentor as others suggested?

Or do you think that most people here are unaware of how good you are and so you're still trying to find 'what you can get away with' but are asking other people who might be telling you what you want to hear?


genuinely curious what you've done and what gear you've bought. oh.. Where you're jumping too.


(This post was edited by yoink on Dec 3, 2012, 2:08 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 3, 2012, 9:01 PM
Post #72 of 72 (1673 views)
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Re: [knabe] DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size? [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileShockedWink



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