Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Downsizing...how much is too much?

 

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EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 31, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #26 of 45 (1547 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

A Pulse packs a size smaller and is a blast to fly. You can maximize a container's time in your progression with starting on a larger pulse in a container that is made for a smaller wing.

IMO it gives more performance than some other canopies the same size. It really is fast and fun. Easy to pack too.

Have you thought about demoing? PD has an excellent demo program. I would try several different wings in the size your instructors suggest just to find out what you like.


Rich2

Nov 20, 2012, 7:15 PM
Post #27 of 45 (1403 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a similar question, I currently weigh around 220 which puts my exit weight around 242, I'm fairly new to the sport (about 30 jumps) and have a goal of getting down to a 210 so I can actually rent some freefly friendly gear in a little while (buying a rig is out of the question for a little while). I currently fly a 240 with no problem but am apprehensive about taking the step down to 220 (1.1) much less 210 (1.15) despite everybody at the dropzone stating there's no difference between 240 and 220 (at which point I laugh).

What would be the proper downsize guidelines for that? I've read the Big Air Sportz guideline which suggests 140 - 220 jumps before getting to that point at my weight which is a bit of a bummer but understandable. Unfortunately the DZ I go to also seems to be pretty much slim pickings with rental gear, and I often have to upsize to a 260 or 280 (there are no 230s).

I have no real interest in downsizing to swoop or to do any kind of advanced maneuvers. I just want to get the hell off student gear.

Unrelated but I was always curious - Does the increased wing load effect canopies over 200 to the same extent as those under? ie - if I jump a 1.2 wingload on a 210, I'm assuming it won't be the same as somebody jumping a 1.2 wingload on a 135. Probably wrong on that though.


(This post was edited by Rich2 on Nov 20, 2012, 7:24 PM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 20, 2012, 7:54 PM
Post #28 of 45 (1362 views)
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Re: [Rich2] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

My advice would be to not go higher than 1:1 wing loading under 100 jumps.

-Buy your own gear?

-Spend the next 67 jumps working on your belly skills?

What makes your student gear unsafe for freeflying. I see our students in all kinds of attitudes, sometimes intentionally. If properly pinchecked and in good condition, most modern rigs will do for a little freeflying, won't they?


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Nov 20, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #29 of 45 (1330 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My advice would be to not go higher than 1:1 wing loading under 100 jumps.

-Buy your own gear?

-Spend the next 67 jumps working on your belly skills?

What makes your student gear unsafe for freeflying. I see our students in all kinds of attitudes, sometimes intentionally. If properly pinchecked and in good condition, most modern rigs will do for a little freeflying, won't they?

If the student rigs are really stretched out they might not offer the best bridle protection.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 20, 2012, 10:21 PM
Post #30 of 45 (1328 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the student rigs are really stretched out they might not offer the best bridle protection.
I'm guessing you meant BOC pockets being stretched out and pilot chutes slipping out? If so, yes, that's one of my thoughts. To me that means the DZ rigger needs to do a little maintenance on the rigs they're renting out to people.

Bridle protection is very important too, but more a function of rig design and proper packing, IMO. Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2012, 1:04 AM
Post #31 of 45 (1315 views)
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Re: [voilsb] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Get where you can .... land it on rears, and consistently (19/20 times)...
Just out of curiosity, what will happen on the 20th?
Tongue




to baRRRpirate:


In reality, your best bet is to get first-hand opinions from your local skygods...er, I mean instructors. They know you best.


Always, always, always think Skydiving Safety.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Nov 21, 2012, 1:08 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2012, 1:25 AM
Post #32 of 45 (1303 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes sir baby!

Bill Von Novak's article is reality. You need those skills regardless of downsizing intent. And you need them on each and every canopy make/model/size you fly.

Brian's is not reality. It is nothing more than a conservative recommendation. The chart takes no consideration of a host of variables. Going simply by jump numbers is insane.

"I have 500 jumps but I have never done (insert skill here)."

Again..get your input from your local guys.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Nov 21, 2012, 4:58 AM
Post #33 of 45 (1270 views)
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Re: [Rich2] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unrelated but I was always curious - Does the increased wing load effect canopies over 200 to the same extent as those under? ie - if I jump a 1.2 wingload on a 210, I'm assuming it won't be the same as somebody jumping a 1.2 wingload on a 135. Probably wrong on that though.

From the SIM--Category C:

f. With the same wing loading a smaller canopy of the same model will exhibit more lively performance characteristics.

(1) faster turns and turn response

(2) quicker dynamic stall response


Rich2

Nov 21, 2012, 5:16 AM
Post #34 of 45 (1262 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Knew I saw it somewhere! Thanks.

In reply to:
My advice would be to not go higher than 1:1 wing loading under 100 jumps.

-Buy your own gear?

-Spend the next 67 jumps working on your belly skills?

What makes your student gear unsafe for freeflying. I see our students in all kinds of attitudes, sometimes intentionally. If properly pinchecked and in good condition, most modern rigs will do for a little freeflying, won't they?

Loose BOCs and a general lack of trust in using a different rig every time I show up is all.


(This post was edited by Rich2 on Nov 21, 2012, 5:26 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 21, 2012, 6:09 AM
Post #35 of 45 (1231 views)
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Re: [Rich2] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I currently weigh around 220 which puts my exit weight around 242

First off, get on a scale. 22 lbs is shooting low for gear + clothing for a guy your size. A rig that will hold canopies your size is going to weigh more than 22 lbs on it's own.

Quote:
I currently fly a 240 with no problem but am apprehensive about taking the step down to 220 (1.1) much less 210 (1.15) despite everybody at the dropzone stating there's no difference between 240 and 220 (at which point I laugh).

if I jump a 1.2 wingload on a 210, I'm assuming it won't be the same as somebody jumping a 1.2 wingload on a 135.

You're not far off here. When it comes to the 'difference' between one canopy and the next, wingloading is a big part of how much difference there will be. A guy who's 175lbs, going from a 240 down to a 220 will not notice as much difference as you will. The higher up in WL you go, the more noticable the differences will be between sizes.

As an example, think about the difference you feel between jumping a 280 or a 260. It's not going to be as noticable as when you move from the 260 to the 240.

Moving on WL as it relates to canopy size, you are correct that a smaller canopy at the same WL will perform differently than a larger one. This is the reason that the '1 to 1' rule of thumb for beginner WL does not apply to smaller jumpers. A 95lb girl with an exit weight of 120lbs should not be jumping a 120 sq ft canopy in her first rig. The smaller size of the canopy, even at a 1 to 1 WL, will not be as forgiving or easy to handle as a 170 or 190 at the same WL.

However, that knife cuts both ways. Larger jumpers can often err on the side of a higher WL due to the same factors. The larger size of a canopy will reduce the performance to a degree, that you can get a reasonable level of forgiveness at WLs north of 1 to 1.

With all that said, none of those details matters when it comes to downsizing. All that counts are your skills, the opinion of your instructors, and your confidence level. If any one of those three do not point toward downsizing, then don't do it. If you can demonstrate the skills on Bill Von's downsizing chart (and by demonstrate I mean that you do each of them at least 5 times successfully), and you have the backing of your instructors or a local canopy coach, and you feel like it's a good idea, then try jumping a canopy one size smaller.

Before your first jump on a new wing, get a briefing on how to evaluate a canopy in terms of glide and the flare/stall point so you enter the landing pattern with a good idea of what to expect. Pick a day with calm, steady winds, and plan to pull higher than normal to give yourself extra time under canopy and a better chance to land last (with no traffic).

Another idea is to see about a demo 230. PD has a great demo program, and they offer a good number of 230 sized canopies. Talk to the people at your DZ and see if you can rent a rig for the day, and have one of the riggers hook up the demo into the rental rig (it's not that hard, they come on risers).


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 22, 2012, 8:37 AM
Post #36 of 45 (1134 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Brian's is not reality. It is nothing more than a conservative recommendation. The chart takes no consideration of a host of variables. Going simply by jump numbers is insane.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Brian's chart is page 1. There's plenty more to read after that including the following comments...

"Due to individual differences in natural ability, judgment and demonstrated in-air awareness, there must be allowances for variability with the recommended size. To fit every canopy pilot into a finite formula is not reflective of the true nature of the situation."

There are also exercises listed in the document.


hillson  (D 33134)

Nov 22, 2012, 8:11 PM
Post #37 of 45 (1030 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Saw a guy hook in a Pulse 150 on Tuesday and basically show his ass to all of the xfire / katana er al fliers (the pro guys training for Dubai gave him a look, too).

As we walked through the crowd to packing he mumbled "talk to me when you're ready to dowsize.". Granted his daily wing is a sub 100 velo...but it was way impressive.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 22, 2012, 8:29 PM
Post #38 of 45 (1021 views)
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Re: [craigbey] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Brian's chart is page 1. There's plenty more to read after that including the following comments....
Exactly.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 23, 2012, 9:03 AM
Post #39 of 45 (988 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly why you cannot discount Brian's recommendations as 'insane'.

This past summer I attended 2 canopy courses with 2 different coaches from PD. At the end of the courses, they both recommended everyone continue with ongoing training and skill development and working with other reputable coaches -- including coaches not affiliated with PD. One of the guys from PD mentioned Brian by name.

BV's checklist is an essential set of skills that every jumper should be able to perform. Brian's chart, recommendations and exercises complement that checklist. They are both valuable resources.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 23, 2012, 3:44 PM
Post #40 of 45 (923 views)
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Re: [craigbey] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Exactly why you cannot discount Brian's recommendations as 'insane'.
Didn't say you should. Please don't read more than what is there.

Re-read my comment. It has nothing to do with Brian Germaine. It applies across the board.

Quote:
Going simply by jump numbers is insane.

In reply to:
...One of the guys from PD mentioned Brian by name.
Yep. I would not tell anyone to avoid Brian. I recommend him for certain things myself.

In reply to:
BV's checklist is an essential set of skills that every jumper should be able to perform. Brian's chart, recommendations and exercises complement that checklist. They are both valuable resources.
Yes indeed they are. All that is well known.

Maybe this is what threw you off...
Brian's chart in and of itself, is not reality. Even though it says ..."must not..." There is much more to it and BV points that out rather well. Brian is trying to draw a line in the sand and you know as well as I do that is not what happens in the real world. We've discussed that line in the sand more often than once already. Would USPA adopt something like that? I sincerely doubt it. Jumpers throughout the country would be screaming.

Brian's chart PLUS the text is valuable information for for all of us. Just the chart is the recommendation...that's all it can be at this point.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Nov 23, 2012, 3:52 PM)


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 23, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #41 of 45 (916 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
I would not tell anyone to avoid Brian. I recommend him for certain things myself.

That's great to hear. He will appreciate your recommendation.


(This post was edited by craigbey on Nov 23, 2012, 4:17 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 24, 2012, 2:32 AM
Post #42 of 45 (857 views)
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Re: [craigbey] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's great to hear. He will appreciate your recommendation.

Sarcasm? Really?Unimpressed


In reply to:
Quote:
I would not tell anyone to avoid Brian. I recommend him for certain things myself.

Except for the 45 Degree rule.
ShockedLaughLaugh

But to his credit, I understand he no longer promotes that and has been just recently convinced of the physics of exit separation.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Nov 24, 2012, 2:37 AM)


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 24, 2012, 7:40 AM
Post #43 of 45 (829 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would suggest that you put your axe down and step away from the grinder, but you will probably continue to dig up the prior discussions with Brian about the 45 degree rule ... even in new threads that have nothing to do with exit separation. Oh well, carry on...


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
PS: It's cute that you sometimes quote yourself in your posts.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 24, 2012, 1:08 PM
Post #44 of 45 (798 views)
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Re: [craigbey] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ruh Roh another internet hater trying to start crap and telling people how to live...have fun with it, dude.
Crazy

Thanks for noticing the quote...I hope you got it the second time around.
Wink

Meanwhile, back on the OP's topic......


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Nov 24, 2012, 1:12 PM)


inkogneetow  (D License)

Jan 25, 2013, 12:06 AM
Post #45 of 45 (552 views)
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Re: [hillson] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Saw a guy hook in a Pulse 150 on Tuesday and basically show his ass to all of the xfire / katana er al fliers (the pro guys training for Dubai gave him a look, too).

As we walked through the crowd to packing he mumbled "talk to me when you're ready to dowsize.". Granted his daily wing is a sub 100 velo...but it was way impressive.

I can hook turn my super flat flying Apache 150 in too but that doesn't mean I'm a great canopy pilotWink


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