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AFF instructor salary

 

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Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 27, 2013, 8:13 AM
Post #51 of 100 (2050 views)
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Re: [bluskidave] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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reminds me of a time long ago where a packer went up to the dzo and said we the packers have decided that we will pack for $6 instead Of $5. The DZO response " like hell you will you can pack your shit up and pack in Salado" Sorry Wendy.

That's some funny shit, Dave!


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:07 PM
Post #52 of 100 (1930 views)
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Re: [BMFin] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

Well how about the DZ takes a small hit on gear rental/gas and pays the instructors more. Proper instruction really matters in this sport; and paying instructors more, whether we like it or not, will make them instruct better.

It's hard enough for most whuffo's to make a skydive due to the fear factor, add the cost of AFF & careless instructors and it makes it easy for a lot of prospective jumpers to get turned off by the sport.

If you pay the instructors more, not only will the students get more attention and a better education (i.e. create a safer skydiving environment), but it will also add more fun jumpers to the sport.

If I was a DZO I would consider every AFF student an investment. Considering that an AFF student can turn into a jumper who will put hundreds if not thousands of jumps into the DZ, rent gear, bring his whuffo friends...

It wasn't too long ago I was taking my AFF courses, and while I did have some awesome instructors, I also had a few who did the bare minimum. It just kinda sucks, when you drive out a couple of hours, drop a couple of bills, get 15 minutes of instruction, jump out of a plane only to get a 1 minute debrief on your jump before the instructor is off running to a tandem.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:24 PM
Post #53 of 100 (1925 views)
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Re: [dontlikemustard] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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Well how about the DZ takes a small hit on gear rental/gas and pays the instructors more. Proper instruction really matters in this sport; and paying instructors more, whether we like it or not, will make them instruct better.

It's hard enough for most whuffo's to make a skydive due to the fear factor, add the cost of AFF & careless instructors and it makes it easy for a lot of prospective jumpers to get turned off by the sport.

If you pay the instructors more, not only will the students get more attention and a better education (i.e. create a safer skydiving environment), but it will also add more fun jumpers to the sport.

If I was a DZO I would consider every AFF student an investment. Considering that an AFF student can turn into a jumper who will put hundreds if not thousands of jumps into the DZ, rent gear, bring his whuffo friends...

It wasn't too long ago I was taking my AFF courses, and while I did have some awesome instructors, I also had a few who did the bare minimum. It just kinda sucks, when you drive out a couple of hours, drop a couple of bills, get 15 minutes of instruction, jump out of a plane only to get a 1 minute debrief on your jump before the instructor is off running to a tandem.

Run some numbers:

An AFF Cat B jump costs ya $195 Let's break it down:

Instructors pay: I'm guessing probably $40 each, so we're down to $115

Slots: $25/each times 3. and we're down to $40

Gear rental: $23/jump.

That takes us down to $17 going to the dz. Real money maker AFF students are.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Jan 29, 2013, 4:29 PM)


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jan 29, 2013, 8:32 PM
Post #54 of 100 (1901 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Run some numbers:

An AFF Cat B jump costs ya $195 Let's break it down:

Instructors pay: I'm guessing probably $40 each, so we're down to $115

Slots: $25/each times 3. and we're down to $40

Gear rental: $23/jump.

That takes us down to $17 going to the dz. Real money maker AFF studends are.

Well, the DZ gets the slot and the gear rental $, and presumably there is some profit in those items. (and perhaps a cut of the gear store sales, when those students buy stuff, etc).

Plus, if you don't train students, there eventually won't be any fun jumpers to fill the rest of the plane. (Jumpers who sometimes go on to become TIs and AFFIs, etc.) I've made more than 30 jumps for every AFF jump I did. I don't mean to begrudge a DZ from profiting on every aspect of their busines, but one could make a plausible argument that it still would be a net financial benefit to the DZ even if they merely covered their costs on an AFF jump (say, if things got really bad economically).


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:57 AM
Post #55 of 100 (1891 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Well how about the DZ takes a small hit on gear rental/gas and pays the instructors more. Proper instruction really matters in this sport; and paying instructors more, whether we like it or not, will make them instruct better.

It's hard enough for most whuffo's to make a skydive due to the fear factor, add the cost of AFF & careless instructors and it makes it easy for a lot of prospective jumpers to get turned off by the sport.

If you pay the instructors more, not only will the students get more attention and a better education (i.e. create a safer skydiving environment), but it will also add more fun jumpers to the sport.

If I was a DZO I would consider every AFF student an investment. Considering that an AFF student can turn into a jumper who will put hundreds if not thousands of jumps into the DZ, rent gear, bring his whuffo friends...

It wasn't too long ago I was taking my AFF courses, and while I did have some awesome instructors, I also had a few who did the bare minimum. It just kinda sucks, when you drive out a couple of hours, drop a couple of bills, get 15 minutes of instruction, jump out of a plane only to get a 1 minute debrief on your jump before the instructor is off running to a tandem.

Run some numbers:

An AFF Cat B jump costs ya $195 Let's break it down:

Instructors pay: I'm guessing probably $40 each, so we're down to $115

Slots: $25/each times 3. and we're down to $40

Gear rental: $23/jump.

That takes us down to $17 going to the dz. Real money maker AFF students are.

Bad math. There's profit in the gear rental and $23 slots too.


tdog  (D 28800)

Jan 30, 2013, 6:31 AM
Post #56 of 100 (1859 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Run some numbers:

An AFF Cat B jump costs ya $195 Let's break it down:

Instructors pay: I'm guessing probably $40 each, so we're down to $115

Slots: $25/each times 3. and we're down to $40

Gear rental: $23/jump.

That takes us down to $17 going to the dz. Real money maker AFF students are.


Gear = $5000 to buy at dealer cost, 2500 jump life = $2.50 per jump. Add packing, rigging and repairs = less than $10 per jump actual cost.

Slots - if you consider the full $25 each, you assume there was a fun jumper going to fill the plane to take that slot and the profit built into that is lost... Actual cost is more like $20-22ish for the slot to fly the plane. Since most DZs need students + fun jumpers to keep the plane flying, lets just isolate costs.

So the AFF student =

$195 - ($20 slot cost X 3) - ($35 instructor X 2) - $10 gear costs = $55 gross profit on one jump.

Compare customer gross profits on a full plane:

AFF $55 profit / 3 seats on plane = $18 profit per seat

Fun jumper = $5 profit per seat

If the AFF student was not there, and there were a few open seats on the plane - then the cashflow the DZO will lose is even more...

As a business owner I fully understand that DZOs need profit to pay for aircraft maintenance, hangars, lofts, front desk staff, and room for the AFF instructors to work. I don't feel $55 profit is too much considering what it takes to operate a DZ - and without students we would not have turbines at many DZs.

But there is some wiggle room in the profit to give a thank you to the staff every once in a while (dealer cost on gear, free staff jumps, a little cash on record days, etc). And there is a little wiggle room to help students who need a little help to progress, such as a discount on a repeat jump....


(This post was edited by tdog on Jan 30, 2013, 6:36 AM)


Trev_S  (B 7866)

Jan 31, 2013, 7:08 PM
Post #57 of 100 (1775 views)
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Re: [tdog] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

I've finished AFF and am on to B rels and compeltely broke from it but I don't care! I could go to the DZ on Saturday and they could tell me it would cost $100,000 and my first born to jump. I'd have robbed a bank and knocked a chick up by lunch time on Sunday.


SkydiverShawn  (C 40994)

Apr 1, 2013, 6:15 PM
Post #58 of 100 (1507 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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We need a union. It really is pathetic that since the early 90's pay has basically stayed the same. Impossible to make a living. Even worse it encourages instructors to spend less time with students so they can get on to the next jump.

Yay! Just another way to make jumping for new student more expensiveCrazy What you need is to kick back and relax and enjoy the fact that you are getting paid for jumping and sharing something that I hope you still enjoy. If not, quit and get a job and let someone else do it.


becka  (D 30967)

Apr 2, 2013, 6:00 AM
Post #59 of 100 (1422 views)
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Re: [SkydiverShawn] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

So you want the people doing this full time (and thus are likely to be the most knowledgeable) to be scraping by? You want the people in charge of teaching students to save their own lives to have to scrimp on time with the students so they can afford both rent and groceries? Seriously?

Students will probably save money in the long run if their instructors pay at least keeps up with inflation. The instructor can then be expected and able to spend more time on instruction and debriefs. Less repeat dives, bad habits fixed faster, and less medical bills. A lot of instructors do these great things anyways despite it going against their best interest, but expecting them to is ridiculous.

Instructors spend hours per jump for $35 - $50. If one is part-time, maybe this isn't so bad. However, this is only in good weather and full-timers need to eat and have a roof over their head when it's raining/windy too. (Keep in mind that every time an instructor stops a student from jumping in questionable winds, he/she is choosing the student's safety over getting a paycheck.)

Learning to skydive is luxury. An expensive luxury. If you can't afford to pay your instructor a living wage, you can't afford to skydive. You too can go out and get a job the pays better so that you can be in the sport. Your job argument goes much better that way.


excaza  (C License)

Apr 2, 2013, 6:23 AM
Post #60 of 100 (1416 views)
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Re: [SkydiverShawn] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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What you need is to kick back and relax and enjoy the fact that you are getting paid for jumping and sharing something that I hope you still enjoy. If not, quit and get a job and let someone else do it.

Good grief dude...


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Apr 2, 2013, 8:32 AM
Post #61 of 100 (1379 views)
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Re: [becka] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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Learning to skydive is luxury. An expensive luxury. If you can't afford to pay your instructor a living wage, you can't afford to skydive. You too can go out and get a job the pays better so that you can be in the sport. Your job argument goes much better that way.

I totally agree with that. Every bit of it.


BMFin

Apr 2, 2013, 8:51 AM
Post #62 of 100 (1372 views)
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Re: [becka] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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Learning to skydive is luxury. An expensive luxury. If you can't afford to pay your instructor a living wage, you can't afford to skydive. You too can go out and get a job the pays better so that you can be in the sport. Your job argument goes much better that way.

+1

In Finland, there hasnt been really any professional training. Traditionally all student training has been moreless a hobby for the instructor.

For 2 years now we have had our first commercial DZ. The difference in the professionalism of the instructors is huge IMO. No matter how good you are, an instructor who makes 200-400 instructor jumps per summer is going to be so much more professional in his job, than the instructor who only makes 20-50 jumps per summer.

You are not going to get professional instructors unless you pay a decent wage.


mik  (D 11111)

Apr 2, 2013, 9:39 AM
Post #63 of 100 (1363 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
Learning to skydive is luxury. An expensive luxury. If you can't afford to pay your instructor a living wage, you can't afford to skydive. You too can go out and get a job the pays better so that you can be in the sport. Your job argument goes much better that way.

I totally agree with that. Every bit of it.

I think I disagree with most of this. There are skydivers and skydivers. Some do 10-15 jumps a day, have multiple rigs, do tunnel time, have the resources to do multiple trips a year to improve skills, can take the best coaches etc etc.

Others simply don't have the money for this, and enjoy doing a couple of jumps on some weekends, coaching with friends only etc.

The "market" has set the rates for instuctors, including AFFI. If that rate is not a decent living wage, the instructors have the option of getting alternative employment.
If AFF students had the choice of paying $xx to do AFF with an AFFI who works part time, weekends only, or $xxx plus $1000 (or whatever) to do AFF with a full time professional AFFI, I would be surprised if many students would elect to pay the additional fees.

On the other hand, I know a coach who charges between $500 and $1000 a day (plus slots) but he has close to 18k jumps and seems to have no shortage of students.

The current system seems to provide for skydivers of different financial means to take up our sport, and thereafter to improve. It would be a shame to increase prices to the point where newbies are discouraged from starting to skydive or developing their skills, in my view.


(This post was edited by mik on Apr 2, 2013, 11:04 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 2, 2013, 1:11 PM
Post #64 of 100 (1296 views)
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Re: [becka] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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So you want the people doing this full time (and thus are likely to be the most knowledgeable) to be scraping by? You want the people in charge of teaching students to save their own lives to have to scrimp on time with the students so they can afford both rent and groceries? Seriously?

Students will probably save money in the long run if their instructors pay at least keeps up with inflation. The instructor can then be expected and able to spend more time on instruction and debriefs. Less repeat dives, bad habits fixed faster, and less medical bills. A lot of instructors do these great things anyways despite it going against their best interest, but expecting them to is ridiculous.

Instructors spend hours per jump for $35 - $50. If one is part-time, maybe this isn't so bad. However, this is only in good weather and full-timers need to eat and have a roof over their head when it's raining/windy too. (Keep in mind that every time an instructor stops a student from jumping in questionable winds, he/she is choosing the student's safety over getting a paycheck.)

Learning to skydive is luxury. An expensive luxury. If you can't afford to pay your instructor a living wage, you can't afford to skydive. You too can go out and get a job the pays better so that you can be in the sport. Your job argument goes much better that way.


Well said.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 2, 2013, 6:37 PM
Post #65 of 100 (1250 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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We need a union. It really is pathetic that since the early 90's pay has basically stayed the same. Impossible to make a living. Even worse it encourages instructors to spend less time with students so they can get on to the next jump.

Bullshit.
-Pay stayed the same

-Quality tanked to near rock bottom.
I ain't payin' for mediocrity.


"....encourages instructors to spend less time with students ..."
So, you DO understand my point.

Yeah...those who don't give a shit about student and are only concerned with the money. Shove your money up your ass.


You figure out how to get the deadwood off the payroll and we'll talk.





Boy it felt good to get that off my chest!
LaughLaughAngelic


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 2, 2013, 6:46 PM
Post #66 of 100 (1247 views)
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Re: [becka] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

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So you want the people doing this full time (and thus are likely to be the most knowledgeable) to be scraping by?

Your argument is not well thought out. It's driven by emotion.
Why the hell do you want to take a job that only let's you 'scrape by' and then bitch about it?

That's more of the "somebody owes me something" BS prevalent in the lazies these days.

Simplicity: If the pay won't support your living the life of luxury you want, don't take the job nor take it on a temporary basis until you find one that does. OMG, how utterly simple is that?
Crazy
In reply to:

The instructor can then be expected and able to spend more time on instruction and debriefs. Less repeat dives, bad habits fixed faster, and less medical bills. A lot of instructors do these great things anyways despite it going against their best interest, but expecting them to is ridiculous.

And more bullshit.
There are real expectations. If you don't want to meet them or if you are so immature that you refuse to meet them, turn in your rating. You have no business being an instructor.

That entire paragraph reeks of lack of responsibility, integrity. It's not an instructors job to shave the quality of his instruction for any reason...and money falls at the bottom of that list.

"Let's see now....I'll get paid $20 so I'll only cover exits. Freefall and EPs can come when they pay for that."

Extreme example? Yes. You DO get the point, I hope.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 2, 2013, 6:54 PM)


becka  (D 30967)

Apr 2, 2013, 8:29 PM
Post #67 of 100 (1231 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually my argument is well-thought out. And it is not in conflict with your insinuation that there are poor instructors who are only in it for the money. (Though let's face it, tandem instruction is far more prone to that as there is usually more money there.)

As in ANY profession, there are going to be bad workers. Does that mean that the hard-working qualified people who devote all their daylight hours to helping students save their lives and become better skydivers deserve to be paid at the poverty level? That is not well-thought out. That kind of thinking is why standards "need" to be lowered, because many of the best will leave and those who aren't as qualified or flat-out don't care will take up the slack for a few bucks.

AFF Instructors are in a business where many of the best decisions they make COST them in their paycheck. And yet many of them make those good decisions anyways.

I want to use my shiny new rating to help students learn. And I won't do less than my best. But I sure as hell won't do it full-time. My full-time job allows me to skydive and live without being terrified it will rain for a week straight. (Still don't like it, but my cat and I will get fed.) But the people who devote their lives to betterment of skydiving deserve a living wage. These are the often people that mentor the weekend warriors like me.

Now while I have never met you, I know that you have done and continue to do a lot of awesome things for jumpers. And it is so great that you do. Obviously you aren't in it for the money. You aren't the only one. I know many more. But if you want to keep most the people who care in the business, you have to take care of them. (This also can help rid you of shmucks who don't as their will be more good people to take their place.)

Really, it's not just ethically correct to treat quality instructors well, it's good business. And most people are just asking that wages keep up with inflation. How is that so controversial?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 2, 2013, 9:06 PM
Post #68 of 100 (1227 views)
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Re: [becka] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually my argument is well-thought out. And it is not in conflict with your insinuation that there are poor instructors who are only in it for the money.
I didn't mean to 'insinuate'. I was trying to be very, very direct.

In reply to:
(Though let's face it, tandem instruction is far more prone to that as there is usually more money there.)
I'll give the TIs a bye...as long as they just do tandems and don't get involved in actually teaching skydiving.

Now before TIs go off on that,. be aware, yes, there are knowlegable TIs out the who can be trusted to teach properly and adequately. My direct concern is AFFI.


In reply to:
As in ANY profession, there are going to be bad workers. Does that mean that the hard-working qualified people who devote all their daylight hours to helping students save their lives and become better skydivers deserve to be paid at the poverty level?

Nope. You misunderstand if you think I'm saying all AFFI are bad. You are misunderstanding if you think I would not like to see everyone making the money they would like.

In reply to:
...That kind of thinking is why standards "need" to be lowered, because many of the best will leave and those who aren't as qualified or flat-out don't care will take up the slack for a few bucks.
It's appalling that you would think that and/or think that I was implying that. Wrong, wrong wrong...I don't often say that to people but this case justifies it. Standards are too low as it is. We do NOT need more monkeys. We need good, qualified instructors with integrity. Period.

In reply to:
AFF Instructors are in a business where many of the best decisions they make COST them in their paycheck. And yet many of them make those good decisions anyways.
True enough. We're not talking about the "good ones".

In reply to:
I want to use my shiny new rating to help students learn. And I won't do less than my best. But I sure as hell won't do it full-time.

And that's fine! Great! Part-time is wonderful! A "real" job coupled with part-time skydiving is a good thing for your financial well-being!

When you get more experience and you get out and about more, you'll see what I'm talking about. Right now, your foundation to make the judgements about the quality of AFFIs is not there. Your scope appears to be limited.

Here's something you can do to broaden your horizons on instruction.

Every DZ you visit, ask to sit in on an FJC. Ha! It'll hit you like a ton of bricks.....

In reply to:
But the people who devote their lives to betterment of skydiving deserve a living wage.
You seem to have thing backwards.
The people who want to devote their lives to betterment of skydiving should make sure the financials are in place before they jump on the bandwagon. If the financials are not there, they have a decision to make to commit to the program or go for the money. Their choice.

Let me ask...the job you have now...did you know whether or not it was going to cover your expenses before you took it?
If it didn't cover your expenses, what would you have done?

In reply to:
But if you want to keep most the people who care in the business, you have to take care of them. (This also can help rid you of shmucks who don't as their will be more good people to take their place.)
IMO, the ones who really care are here for the love of sport, not the money.

I strongly disagree that more pay will filter out the deadwood by attracting more integrity. IMO, quite the opposite. Integrity cannot be purchased...if it could, that only tells you that it's the money driving it....not real integrity.

Besides, it's not the money at all with respect to quality instruction. It's the instructional courses that they have to take are so poorly constructed that only the most dedicated have a chance to become "quality" instructors.

In reply to:
Really, it's not just ethically correct to treat quality instructors well, it's good business. And most people are just asking that wages keep up with inflation. How is that so controversial?
Nope. What IS controversial is the idea of agreeing to take a job, with ALL its responsibilities, and then not doing it for the wages you agree to in order to get the job.

IMO, this applies across the board, not just to skydiving. Want to increase your pay? Hell yeah! Nothing wrong with that and again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. I'd like to see everyone making $1mil...it ain't a-gonna happen but there ya' go.

You want to unionize? Ain't a-gonna happen. I can't think of but just a handful of DZOs who could afford union dealings.

And that's something I didn't want to get into but....how much money do you think is available for pay...for anyone, not just instructors.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 2, 2013, 9:14 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 2, 2013, 9:09 PM
Post #69 of 100 (1224 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually Andy, you won't see it but your argument is full of shit. This has become a business and therefore profesional instructors should be treated as such.

It's great you think it's a hobby, but don't slam those of us that continually seek to become better instructors and professionals, and desire to make a living doing it.


becka  (D 30967)

Apr 2, 2013, 9:41 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

Like I said, I respect what you do for the sport of skydiving. A lot. But you are the one being driven by emotion. You are going off on things that I haven't even said. And you fly from one extreme to the other. I let you get away with insulting me in your first post, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let you railroad me either.

Your whole argument against mine was that there were bad instructors out there and so they shouldn't get more money to do bad stuff. I think everyone with any sense would agree that we don't want to keep, let alone reward, bad instructors (or any bad employees).

And you misread my note on standards. I'm AGREEING with you that standard have often been lowered well beyond acceptable levels. I certainly did not call for them to be lowered further. So if I am wrong wrong wrong, so are you. :)

It's by keeping the wage so insanely low that qualified people who do want to have a decent wage will avoid skydiving instruction as a full-time gig. Who the heck do you think you get instead? Hint: Only some of them are dedicated instructors with trust funds or satisfied by eating ramen noodles every meal.

I have been fortunate enough to know several instructors who love teaching skydiving enough that they have sacrificed their well-being to do it. But it sure isn't fortunate that this is the choice they had to make.

Here's the deal. There are some bad doctors out there, so let's stop increasing their fees for the next twenty years. Who do you think is going to become a doctor after twenty years? A few people who just have to because they want to save other people. But that's not enough. And so the rest are a bunch of folks who think it's cool to be called "doctor" and can now go to med school and get hired due to the lowered expectations.

Skydiving is not some magical field where employees don't need to treated like (and expected to behave like) professionals.


mik  (D 11111)

Apr 3, 2013, 12:46 AM
Post #71 of 100 (1216 views)
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Re: [becka] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

I know instructors in various sports eg climbing, surfing, scuba diving, skydiving, gym instructors who do what they do mostly as a quality of life thing - because they love what they do. And that is great. But it comes at a cost in terms of typically low pay and benefits.

I work in the corporate world where some colleagues get paid $1m plus a year. Although I earn nothing like that, I would like to some day. But that day would only come (if ever) after a huge amount of time spent working many hours - including working extended hours and through the nights at times, cancelling holidays, no time for personal life, extended time working away from home, huge amounts of stress and pressure etc. This often results in broken relationships, not seeing kids grow up, poor physical health etc. And people earning 1/10th or 1/20th of that $1m salary suffer much the same pressure and working conditions.

At the end of the day, this seems to come down to choice. People can choose to be instructors with a cool job and a great work life balance. Or they can choose another career path with the associated benefits and disadvantages.

As far as I am aware, no one forces anyone to be an AFFI or a skydiving instructor. Sorry guys - I don't get your arguments. You know the salary and I am sure most of you could choose an alternative career if you wanted to. And you could choose careers that are known to pay not much, or perhaps careers that are known to pay more.

If the market "wanted" pay to increase (ie if DZ owners could afford to pay instructors more, and were willing to do so) pay would increase. It is that simple.

PS - I am not trying to criticise your choices or demean what you do, or trying to imply that instructors are not professionals who have high risk jobs. I just don't understand your logic in this argument.


(This post was edited by mik on Apr 3, 2013, 4:33 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2013, 6:01 AM
Post #72 of 100 (1168 views)
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Re: [mik] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the market "wanted" pay to increase (ie if DZ owners could afford to pay instructors more, and were willing to do so) pay would increase. It is that simple.

Your model of supply and demand is flawed.

It assumes that "instructors" are all the same product.

The fact is an instructor who's received 2 or 3 ratings in their first 2-3 years in the sport is not the same as an instructor who's been doing it for 10, 15 or even 20 years. And the more instructors that bail out before they get to that experience level, the lower quality the younger instructors exhibit.


SkydiverShawn  (C 40994)

Apr 3, 2013, 5:26 PM
Post #73 of 100 (1086 views)
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Re: [becka] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So you want the people doing this full time (and thus are likely to be the most knowledgeable) to be scraping by? You want the people in charge of teaching students to save their own lives to have to scrimp on time with the students so they can afford both rent and groceries? Seriously?

Students will probably save money in the long run if their instructors pay at least keeps up with inflation. The instructor can then be expected and able to spend more time on instruction and debriefs. Less repeat dives, bad habits fixed faster, and less medical bills. A lot of instructors do these great things anyways despite it going against their best interest, but expecting them to is ridiculous.

Instructors spend hours per jump for $35 - $50. If one is part-time, maybe this isn't so bad. However, this is only in good weather and full-timers need to eat and have a roof over their head when it's raining/windy too. (Keep in mind that every time an instructor stops a student from jumping in questionable winds, he/she is choosing the student's safety over getting a paycheck.)

Learning to skydive is luxury. An expensive luxury. If you can't afford to pay your instructor a living wage, you can't afford to skydive. You too can go out and get a job the pays better so that you can be in the sport. Your job argument goes much better that way.

Really? Students save money? You are oblivious to two things: Business and the history of unions. In reality unions have been the most destructive thing to happen to the American work ethic (or any work ethic for that matter) and unions have cost the American consumer more year after year. All you have to do is look at the UAW and the American Automakers. The cost of an American car has increased at a rate far above that of inflation and for what? are they any better than their foreign counterparts.

I agree that Skydiving is a luxury, but there is also the simple law of supply and demand, and I have met plenty of people that could not afford to rush through AFF. The higher prices would drive away some (no one knows how many) students away and that means less instructors needed. Are you willing to be one of those that goes to work saying "would you like fries with that" because the demand for your job was driven away due to higher AFF courses?

I worked as a tattoo artist and it was not unlike being an instructor. And that is part of the lifestyle. If you don't like that, there is always the drive through window at Jack n the Box...

Oh..and I do have a job a great one that allows me to skydive.


(This post was edited by SkydiverShawn on Apr 3, 2013, 5:44 PM)


SkydiverShawn  (C 40994)

Apr 3, 2013, 5:38 PM
Post #74 of 100 (1076 views)
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Re: [mik] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At the end of the day, this seems to come down to choice. People can choose to be instructors with a cool job and a great work life balance. Or they can choose another career path with the associated benefits and disadvantages.

As far as I am aware, no one forces anyone to be an AFFI or a skydiving instructor. Sorry guys - I don't get your arguments. You know the salary and I am sure most of you could choose an alternative career if you wanted to. And you could choose careers that are known to pay not much, or perhaps careers that are known to pay more.

If the market "wanted" pay to increase (ie if DZ owners could afford to pay instructors more, and were willing to do so) pay would increase. It is that simple.

PS - I am not trying to criticise your choices or demean what you do, or trying to imply that instructors are not professionals who have high risk jobs. I just don't understand your logic in this argument.

I agree completely. I also want to say that I am friends with and love my AFF Instructors and Coaches, but I do not see there to be any basis for need for Unions in the skydiving world.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 3, 2013, 7:27 PM
Post #75 of 100 (1048 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] AFF instructor salary [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually Andy, you won't see it but your argument is full of shit. This has become a business and therefore profesional instructors should be treated as such.

It's great you think it's a hobby, but don't slam those of us that continually seek to become better instructors and professionals, and desire to make a living doing it.

Well, you are right about the business part. Many have turned it into one. Not a good thing in my book and we are seeing one grand reason why.....greed. There's money to be made, yes....but if you think there's going to be a group of 6-figure instructors hangin' around, don't hold your breath.

Yep. It's a business for some. Funny how the 'hobbyists' keep the sport going isn't it? Yep.
Funny how it's the hobbyists are generating the cash to pay you. You may want to re-think bad-mouthing them.

Yep, once again *sigh* professionals should be treated as such. You ain't a-gonna get the 401k, the pension and the fat paycheck that pays your mistresses condos.
Treating the pros as professionals is easy to do...there's so few of them.

"I'm not gonna do an FJC until I get at least X number of students. It's not worth my time for less than that."
You think that's fiction?

If you think I was slamming those of us that continually seek to become better instructors and professionals, you have been sleeping and missed the entire point.

-Get rid of the deadwood.
-Change the training to accomplish the goal of creating professionals instead of driven-by-money bozos.
- Evidently you think this skydiving 'business' is flourishing and wallowing in money and that mean old DZOs are hoarding it and starving the 'professionals'.
- Check your DZOs wallet and see if he can afford to pay for the lifestyle you want.

It's time to wake up Diablo.

Are you feeling guilty about anything I said?


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