Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
gopros and tandem students

 

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piisfish

Oct 31, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #26 of 59 (1642 views)
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In reply to:
IMO it was quite ok.
if it was a guy passenger, you wouldn't say that. It was OKish becaus there was some cleavage


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Oct 31, 2012, 8:53 AM
Post #27 of 59 (1637 views)
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In reply to:
this is not my idea of a good tandem video... but to each his own

IMO it was quite ok. Sure a good TI could make it look better, but I guess safety comes first for this DZ?

That's an amusing statement considering he never did a freefall handles check. Safety first? I don't think so.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:01 AM
Post #28 of 59 (1632 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink


RyanFYF  (C 41792)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #29 of 59 (1624 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

my DZ made it simple to me when I did my first tandem last year and asked to bring a gopro. They said "you can bring it, film all around the drop zone, but you cannot bring it on the plane. We sell videos and hire trained jumpers to film it from a 3rd person perspective as well as their 1st person perspective after your chute opens." Enough said. They were very polite about it and as a newbie knowing NOTHING about the sport or its dangers, It made perfect sense to me.

As tourists, I'm sure there are lots of things that annoy the TI but they don't know that. They have limited know how about the sport and just want to do something "crazy" to tell their friends and family about. Naturally in todays world, everyone wants to put it on youtube.

Again, I have no experience and only 7 aff jumps, so I am just stating my side and telling all the TI instructors out there that we are sorry it annoys you and are grateful for your expertise in the sport and that is why we put our lives in your hands within seconds of meeting you. Wink


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #30 of 59 (1616 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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The TI essentially had to hold her arm in place the entire time. It would have been easier to just have the camera on his hand.
I've only done one tandem with the student wearing a GoPro handcam. I had to point the video a bit for the student, but that was additional services, not required on my part.

I found it not distracting or a hazard to the jump. How well their video turned out I don't know.

I've also had people jump with small still cameras on their wrist and they've taken pictures both in freefall and under canopy. Once again I haven't found it to be a problem.

It certainly keeps them from grabbing my hands and handles. Wink


matt3sa  (D 29266)

Nov 5, 2012, 8:50 PM
Post #31 of 59 (1473 views)
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Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

All my students hang on to their harness until I give them the tap on the wrists. My personal reasoning for that is that I don't want their hand anywhere near a drogue deployment. Feel free to criticize that by saying that if I was doing my job it wouldn't be an issue, but putting a GoPro on a hand adds an additional snag point for drogue deployment (in the event that they don't listen and pop their hands out right away) and furthermore it undercuts small DZ's making any money. I work at a small Cessna dropzone where we pay 60% of our Tandem fee to the pilot (who owns the plane). Selling a videos is an important part of our survival.


Ron

Nov 6, 2012, 6:48 PM
Post #32 of 59 (1421 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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Heres a video:

Still can't find how many tandems you have.

And the quality of the video is not the point.... It is the fact that on opening the camera could hit the TI knocking him out or getting entangled.

Safety, not quality of video is the topic you have not answered.


EOCS  (C License)

Nov 13, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #33 of 59 (1265 views)
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Re: [piisfish] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
IMO it was quite ok.
if it was a guy passenger, you wouldn't say that. It was OKish becaus there was some cleavage

You sir had me go back a page to check said video..... i was not disappointed :P

as for T-passengers having cameras. Being one of the ones who started with a camera well below 200 jumps i still dont think its a good idea. there is no way in hell i could have done what i needed to do on my first jumps while having a camera and trying to get any shots, its just not feasible.


BMFin

Nov 14, 2012, 6:18 AM
Post #34 of 59 (1226 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And the quality of the video is not the point.... It is the fact that on opening the camera could hit the TI knocking him out or getting entangled.

Safety, not quality of video is the topic you have not answered.

Agreed. Quality is not the point. Safety is. Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%. This makes the tandemjump safer.

The go pro isnt going to knock anyone out or get entangled any more than a normal altimeter on the students wrist. Your argument is weak.


Ron

Nov 14, 2012, 6:26 AM
Post #35 of 59 (1219 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Agreed. Quality is not the point. Safety is. Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%. This makes the tandemjump safer.

Still waiting for you to tell everyone how many tandem instructor jumps you have.

If you want to make it safer, let the student put concentration on arching, not getting good video.

Quote:
The go pro isnt going to knock anyone out or get entangled any more than a normal altimeter on the students wrist. Your argument is weak.

The go pro is MUCH taller than an altimeter, your argument is pathetic.

BTW, how many TI jumps do you have? (4th or 5th time I have asked you to provide some background for your *expert* opinion).


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 14, 2012, 8:31 AM
Post #36 of 59 (1192 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
Agreed. Quality is not the point. Safety is. Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%. This makes the tandemjump safer.

Still waiting for you to tell everyone how many tandem instructor jumps you have.

If you want to make it safer, let the student put concentration on arching, not getting good video.

Quote:
The go pro isnt going to knock anyone out or get entangled any more than a normal altimeter on the students wrist. Your argument is weak.

The go pro is MUCH taller than an altimeter, your argument is pathetic.

BTW, how many TI jumps do you have? (4th or 5th time I have asked you to provide some background for your *expert* opinion).

He has an opinion, but I'd question the "expert" bit.

I suspect he's never heard of Murphy......


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 14, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #37 of 59 (1179 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Agreed. Quality is not the point. Safety is. Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%. This makes the tandemjump safer.

Still waiting for you to tell everyone how many tandem instructor jumps you have.

If you want to make it safer, let the student put concentration on arching, not getting good video.

Quote:
The go pro isnt going to knock anyone out or get entangled any more than a normal altimeter on the students wrist. Your argument is weak.

The go pro is MUCH taller than an altimeter, your argument is pathetic.

BTW, how many TI jumps do you have? (4th or 5th time I have asked you to provide some background for your *expert* opinion).

Well, I have 2500+ T-I jumps, 500+ T-Evaluator jumps.
At first I thought this was a bad idea, but more, and more, I think it is no worse than a Hand Cam on the T-I, since the industry has decided that Tandem jumping is just money making jumps any way.

So the T-I teaches the Arch, and Hand/Camera Placement.

Then the T-I can go back to doing what they are REQUIRED to do. and do their Handle Checks, and watch their drift ,and look for hazards, and all the Student-Instructor Safety stuff, they tend to ignore once they get complacent, you know after a weekend of "real" students.

Matt


Ron

Nov 14, 2012, 10:07 AM
Post #38 of 59 (1162 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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So the T-I teaches the Arch, and Hand/Camera Placement.

You have the experience to have an opinion... I just disagree with it and considering your rant about WS safety, I am shocked that you are so cavalier with a tandem student's life.

Quote:
Then the T-I can go back to doing what they are REQUIRED to do. and do their Handle Checks, and watch their drift ,and look for hazards, and all the Student-Instructor Safety stuff, they tend to ignore once they get complacent, you know after a weekend of "real" students.

Any TI that says you can't do handle checks when jumping a HC is smoking crack.

Any TI that does not do handle checks... Should not be a TI IMO.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 14, 2012, 11:30 AM
Post #39 of 59 (1142 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

>Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%.
>This makes the tandemjump safer.

I've never hit myself in the face with my hand. Students have hit me.

One hit me hard enough that I had trouble seeing. This worried me. After opening I realized it was the blood from my lip that was covering my goggles, and that my eyes were fine. Very glad they did not have a GoPro on their hand.


BMFin

Nov 14, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #40 of 59 (1138 views)
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Re: [billvon] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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One hit me hard enough that I had trouble seeing. This worried me. After opening I realized it was the blood from my lip that was covering my goggles, and that my eyes were fine. Very glad they did not have a GoPro on their hand.

Did the student have an altimeter?


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 14, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #41 of 59 (1117 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
So the T-I teaches the Arch, and Hand/Camera Placement.

You have the experience to have an opinion... I just disagree with it and considering your rant about WS safety, I am shocked that you are so cavalier with a tandem student's life.

Quote:
Then the T-I can go back to doing what they are REQUIRED to do. and do their Handle Checks, and watch their drift ,and look for hazards, and all the Student-Instructor Safety stuff, they tend to ignore once they get complacent, you know after a weekend of "real" students.

Any TI that says you can't do handle checks when jumping a HC is smoking crack.

Any TI that does not do handle checks... Should not be a TI IMO.

I am not cavalier, I am being practical (and you're cherry picking my early WS Rating stance, it has changed with education, BTW).

T-I's have shown they fail to do the handle checks when wearing a Hand Cam, T-I's have shown they fail to do EP's when needed when wearing a Hand Cam.

I KNOW, from experience, it can be done and it won't detract from the video.

Hand Cams are here to stay. So lets put the Instructor back in charge of the safety of the jump, as they should be, and let the student fret over the video.

Matt


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 14, 2012, 2:24 PM
Post #42 of 59 (1100 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

>Did the student have an altimeter?

Yep. Fortunately a wrist mount.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Nov 14, 2012, 3:22 PM
Post #43 of 59 (1077 views)
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Re: gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be afraid the students would be banging my camera on stuff and scratching up my lens. I'd rather hold it myself, but to each their own. People were duct taping PC7's to their student's hands even before handcam gloves were around. Nothing new, it's just a bigger deal nowadays.


Ron

Nov 14, 2012, 5:04 PM
Post #44 of 59 (1053 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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T-I's have shown they fail to do the handle checks when wearing a Hand Cam, T-I's have shown they fail to do EP's when needed when wearing a Hand Cam.

I KNOW, from experience, it can be done and it won't detract from the video.

You know it can be done, yet just give up and decide to complicate the students job AND the instructors job since they do not do the right thing.... Sorry, I call that cavalier.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 14, 2012, 5:27 PM
Post #45 of 59 (1049 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
T-I's have shown they fail to do the handle checks when wearing a Hand Cam, T-I's have shown they fail to do EP's when needed when wearing a Hand Cam.

I KNOW, from experience, it can be done and it won't detract from the video.

You know it can be done, yet just give up and decide to complicate the students job AND the instructors job since they do not do the right thing.... Sorry, I call that cavalier.

I think, that word does not mean, what you think it means.

If we aren't going to ban them (or at least "regulate" them), then get them OFF the instructors hands so he can do what he is legally and morally obliged to do, take care of his Student!

Matt


parachutist  (D 25468)

Nov 14, 2012, 9:29 PM
Post #46 of 59 (1029 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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then get them OFF the instructors hands so he can do what he is legally and morally obliged to do, take care of his Student!

Part of "taking care of the student" is making sure they can focus on their job in this new exciting activity. It's teamwork between the instructor and the student. When the student is preoccupied with aiming a camera, he's not as able to focus on the basics of arching and learning stable freefall.

Besides that, it's free advertising when students post their videos online. I'd rather it be an enjoyable video that draws others to my DZ, instead of a haphazard home movie shot by a first-timer.

Chris


DougH  (D License)

Nov 15, 2012, 6:47 AM
Post #47 of 59 (979 views)
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Re: [parachutist] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Students don't need to aim the camera. The assume a normal free fall position. The assume a normal tandem student exit with a safety position that keeps their hands and elbows in against their chest.

They have a wide angle GoPro on their wrist, all the have to do is arch and smile. If anything it reminds them not to sweep their hands back behind them like many students do despite being trained otherwise.

There are bigger fish to fry, for example tandem mills where students never get on a creeper, and whose training amounts to meeting their instructor at the running plane and being told arch arch arch banana banana.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Nov 15, 2012, 7:14 AM
Post #48 of 59 (970 views)
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Re: [DougH] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree with Doug on this one. I've worked at three dropzones where we did handcam as either the only option or as a secondary option. I've done it with PC 109's, GoPros, and Contours. From plenty of personal experience I can tell you it's 100 times easier these days with GoPro's and Contours than it was in the tape-camera days. MUCH lighter and less obtrusive. I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: I'm totally cool with putting the ( GoPro or Contour) glove on the student. This assuming that, like normal, I've got plenty of time on the ground to give my whole briefing in the school or at the mock-up. I wouldn't put it on their hand at a place where "we'll talk about it on the way up." My students always wear altimiters, too and are generally always given the option to deploy the parachute..

Chuck


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 15, 2012, 7:59 AM
Post #49 of 59 (964 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I totally agree with Doug on this one. I've worked at three dropzones where we did handcam as either the only option or as a secondary option. I've done it with PC 109's, GoPros, and Contours. From plenty of personal experience I can tell you it's 100 times easier these days with GoPro's and Contours than it was in the tape-camera days. MUCH lighter and less obtrusive. I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: I'm totally cool with putting the ( GoPro or Contour) glove on the student. This assuming that, like normal, I've got plenty of time on the ground to give my whole briefing in the school or at the mock-up. I wouldn't put it on their hand at a place where "we'll talk about it on the way up." My students always wear altimiters, too and are generally always given the option to deploy the parachute..

Chuck

^ This!

Matt


Ron

Nov 19, 2012, 7:54 AM
Post #50 of 59 (687 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

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I think, that word does not mean, what you think it means.

Cavalier: Showing arrogant or offhand disregard. I'd say that word fits perfectly.

Quote:
take care of his Student!

That would include not giving the student extra duties that would complicate the skydive.

If a seasoned TI can't fly a HC and fly a tandem, he should quit doing tandems. Does it increase the risk? YES. But it is MUCH more manageable than giving it to the student, and any TI with any skill should be able to pull it off.


(This post was edited by Ron on Nov 19, 2012, 7:57 AM)


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