Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
gopros and tandem students

 


jf951  (D License)

Oct 22, 2012, 11:51 PM
Post #1 of 59 (5615 views)
Shortcut
gopros and tandem students Can't Post

rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/


piisfish

Oct 23, 2012, 1:40 AM
Post #2 of 59 (5535 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

just plain refuse it. Or ask him to bring it back after his 200th tandem Laugh


BMFin

Oct 23, 2012, 5:26 AM
Post #3 of 59 (5450 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?


(This post was edited by BMFin on Oct 23, 2012, 5:27 AM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Oct 23, 2012, 5:27 AM
Post #4 of 59 (5444 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/

if GoPro() = 1 then {
echo "If you would like, we can place your SD card in the instructors hand mounted GoPro for a fee. However, you cannot wear your own camera!";

return cash;

} /*On the other hand, I do joke that it would be funny to allow them to wear it on their head mount (elastic headband that comes with it) with a waiver signed saying they may loose it and we're not responsible. On exit, I could swipe it off their head before it gets blown off and pocket it. Sell to staff members at discounted rates. */


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 23, 2012, 7:29 AM
Post #5 of 59 (5403 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.


BMFin

Oct 23, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #6 of 59 (5354 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.

because it just is..

Now thats a watertight argument !


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 23, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #7 of 59 (5328 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps because a tandem skydive already has enough complexities with the student that don't need to be added to by a camera/snagpoint/distraction?
Because the DZ is in the business of assuring a "safe as possible but high risk" experience?
Fly camera for enough tandems, you eventually see some very 'interesting' moments that (IMO) would only be more complicated by adding a wrist or chest mount camera.
if nothing else, then how about the "The DZ offers outside or hand cam to best assure your safety and great experience?"Tongue


BMFin

Oct 23, 2012, 9:46 AM
Post #8 of 59 (5306 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

I think adding a camera to the instructors hand adds much more risk than adding a camera to a students hand or even better the students harness.


Ron

Oct 23, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #9 of 59 (5299 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Oh, I see you were serious...... OK, assuming you are serious and that you actually wish to have a discussion: How many jumps as a tandem TI do you have?

Me, I have maybe 1,000, maybe more. And I can tell you that tandem skydiving is THE most dangerous type of skydive an experienced jumper can make. You basically create a pilot chute in tow malfunction on purpose and carry a person that, at any time, can freak out on you and start grabbing things. They can swing their hands and hit you, they can smash their head against your head/face/neck (we just recently had a fatality where it seems the students head smashed into the TI and incapacitated him) and they can grab handles, bridles, drogues, your hands.... etc.

There is the additional snag hazard. When you take two heads thinking different things, four arms doing different things, four legs doing different things, and a possibly tumbling ball of shit.... the last thing you need to worry about is a camera. Hell, even the TI wearing a handycam increases the risk and the TI has TOTAL control over where that camera is. We already have incidents where the bridle gets caught by the students or TI's arms, legs, head (yes head)... Adding to that that is not exactly a smart move.

Finally, ignoring the snag hazard (which is HUGE) what happens if they drop the camera and it goes right through someones roof, dents their car, or god forbid hits someone?

All this is with a person who has NO IDEA what they are going to do either. Yet they like to think they will get 'the shot'. They won't, they would be lucky to remember to turn the camera on.

Simply put, the risks of a total unknown participant performing correctly is already there..... ADD a task to them and the chance of them performing that as well makes correctly performing EITHER less likely.

Again, how many TI jumps do you have?


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Oct 23, 2012, 10:10 AM
Post #10 of 59 (5295 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Our manifest deals with that. If they don't my response is usually. "It is a service we sell."
I refuse to engage in any further justification.


Rover  (D 241)

Oct 23, 2012, 10:44 AM
Post #11 of 59 (5279 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.

Makes it OK in NZ then - because they are 'units, and 'units' can wear whatever they like. Sly


BMFin

Oct 23, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #12 of 59 (5268 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...7;page=unread#unread

Some earlier discussion on the subject.


Ron

Oct 23, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #13 of 59 (5255 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
http://www.dropzone.com/...7;page=unread#unread

Some earlier discussion on the subject.

I have read that thread an nowhere did I see you mention how many TI jumps you have.


chris74  (No 568073)

Oct 23, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #14 of 59 (5222 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Andrewwhyte] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

+ 1
Banzai !
Christophe


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 23, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #15 of 59 (5208 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Rover] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.

Makes it OK in NZ then - because they are 'units, and 'units' can wear whatever they like. Sly

In the USA they are legally "passenger parachutists", not students. (FAR Part 105.45)

However, I agree with Ron that it's a really bad idea.


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 23, 2012, 1:44 PM
Post #16 of 59 (5185 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think adding a camera to the instructors hand adds much more risk than adding a camera to a students hand or even better the students harness.


I think you're wrong, and I think you don't have the experience to make that sort of judgement call.


sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Oct 24, 2012, 4:17 PM
Post #17 of 59 (5040 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Our DZO's have left it to the TI's to determine weather or not it's ok for the tandem students to wear these.

I wouldn't recommend it to a junior TI and I require them to be secure but otherwise they don't bother me too much.

Honestly, it's the young jumpers that want to wear them mostly and in general they are physically fit and leave me a little wiggle room to make sure they don't kill us or someone on the ground with there gear.

FWIW, I have never seen video or stills from these jumps that was worth anything.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 24, 2012, 6:50 PM
Post #18 of 59 (4990 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Right here. Spot on.


Whamie  (No License)

Oct 25, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #19 of 59 (4860 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/

if GoPro() = 1 then {
echo "If you would like, we can place your SD card in the instructors hand mounted GoPro for a fee. However, you cannot wear your own camera!";

return cash;

} /*On the other hand, I do joke that it would be funny to allow them to wear it on their head mount (elastic headband that comes with it) with a waiver signed saying they may loose it and we're not responsible. On exit, I could swipe it off their head before it gets blown off and pocket it. Sell to staff members at discounted rates. */

LOL! Yo man that made my day!! Good to know there's a few coders out here that skydive too!


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Oct 26, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #20 of 59 (4730 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Oh, I see you were serious...... OK, assuming you are serious and that you actually wish to have a discussion: How many jumps as a tandem TI do you have?

Me, I have maybe 1,000, maybe more. And I can tell you that tandem skydiving is THE most dangerous type of skydive an experienced jumper can make. You basically create a pilot chute in tow malfunction on purpose and carry a person that, at any time, can freak out on you and start grabbing things. They can swing their hands and hit you, they can smash their head against your head/face/neck (we just recently had a fatality where it seems the students head smashed into the TI and incapacitated him) and they can grab handles, bridles, drogues, your hands.... etc.

There is the additional snag hazard. When you take two heads thinking different things, four arms doing different things, four legs doing different things, and a possibly tumbling ball of shit.... the last thing you need to worry about is a camera. Hell, even the TI wearing a handycam increases the risk and the TI has TOTAL control over where that camera is. We already have incidents where the bridle gets caught by the students or TI's arms, legs, head (yes head)... Adding to that that is not exactly a smart move.

Finally, ignoring the snag hazard (which is HUGE) what happens if they drop the camera and it goes right through someones roof, dents their car, or god forbid hits someone?

All this is with a person who has NO IDEA what they are going to do either. Yet they like to think they will get 'the shot'. They won't, they would be lucky to remember to turn the camera on.

Simply put, the risks of a total unknown participant performing correctly is already there..... ADD a task to them and the chance of them performing that as well makes correctly performing EITHER less likely.

Again, how many TI jumps do you have?

I agree with everything you say here Ron. I'll add one or two thoughts, and experiences.

First, for the first few seconds, which just happen to be the most critical few seconds of the skydive (unless shit goes to shit at some point!), a huge percentage (I'd throw out in excess of 75%) can't manage to remember to arch, or if they do remember, they can't get it right. Throw in another/second thing to think about and if they get either, it would more likely be the camera than the arch.

Our practice in the past has been to allow students to take a camera along if they like, though it was always a still camera. That camera would be stowed for the freefall, and could come out under canopy. I allowed a student to carry a camera out in free fall one time years ago. Immediately off the airplane he had both hands stretched out in front of his face with the camera pointed back at us, and it would seem that his feet were "thinking" the same thing. Both legs bent 90 degrees at the hips and legs straight. That's the shit that you can expect to get when you put a camera on the student.

Throw in the earlier opinion that there will be nothing worth viewing from that camera anyway. So, if we look at as a risk/reward equation. It adds considerably to the risk, with virtually zero reward. There's simply not much justification to allow it.

Students tend to ask if they can take their camera along, primarily because they have virtually no understanding of what's involved in a tandem skydive. They also have no upstanding of how they'll preform on said tandem skydive.

I have around 2500 tandems spread out over 13 years. I've seen quite a lot, some of it was pretty damn scary. We'll often have a feel for how any given student will preform, but most will surprise you. It's actually nice to leave the airplane and for the first couple of seconds thinking 'wow, nice arch dude.' We leave a 182 toward the tail, and let it flip. When we're back to earth in that flip, I generally repeat "arch" in the student's ear. Once in a while I'll say "Nice arch." And sometimes it's "ARCH!"

Those of us with a TI rating and a few tandems under out belt will understand the irony in this. I generally will say to my students when I give them their First Jump Certificate "Thanks for not killing me." To which many will respond "Thanks for not killing me!" and my retort is "I trust me."

Those of with opinions, but few to no tandem skydives should refer to my tag line. I'll repeat it for prosperity, in the even that it's changed at some point.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." Chuck Darwin

Another reference that applies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...2%80%93Kruger_effect


virtasenmatti

Oct 26, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #21 of 59 (4680 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
http://www.dropzone.com/...7;page=unread#unread

Some earlier discussion on the subject.

I have read that thread an nowhere did I see you mention how many TI jumps you have.

Hey man, dont take this dude too seriously.

With no experience he knew that navigator will fly better if loose/open your chest strap (even told not to do it, getting banned from that just did not make any sense).

With no experience he also knew that wingload of 1,4 is ok with 50 to 100 jumps. (broken femur did not change his mind).

Now with no experience of tandems he knows if its ok to give camera to student...


BMFin

Oct 31, 2012, 3:24 AM
Post #22 of 59 (4457 views)
Shortcut
Re: [virtasenmatti] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Heres a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GHvAOqbDFI


piisfish

Oct 31, 2012, 4:28 AM
Post #23 of 59 (4443 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

this is not my idea of a good tandem video... but to each his own


BMFin

Oct 31, 2012, 6:40 AM
Post #24 of 59 (4413 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
this is not my idea of a good tandem video... but to each his own

IMO it was quite ok. Sure a good TI could make it look better, but I guess safety comes first for this DZ?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 31, 2012, 7:18 AM
Post #25 of 59 (4391 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

The TI essentially had to hold her arm in place the entire time. It would have been easier to just have the camera on his hand.


piisfish

Oct 31, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #26 of 59 (1668 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMO it was quite ok.
if it was a guy passenger, you wouldn't say that. It was OKish becaus there was some cleavage


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Oct 31, 2012, 8:53 AM
Post #27 of 59 (1663 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
this is not my idea of a good tandem video... but to each his own

IMO it was quite ok. Sure a good TI could make it look better, but I guess safety comes first for this DZ?

That's an amusing statement considering he never did a freefall handles check. Safety first? I don't think so.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:01 AM
Post #28 of 59 (1658 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jtiflyer] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink


RyanFYF  (C 41792)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #29 of 59 (1650 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

my DZ made it simple to me when I did my first tandem last year and asked to bring a gopro. They said "you can bring it, film all around the drop zone, but you cannot bring it on the plane. We sell videos and hire trained jumpers to film it from a 3rd person perspective as well as their 1st person perspective after your chute opens." Enough said. They were very polite about it and as a newbie knowing NOTHING about the sport or its dangers, It made perfect sense to me.

As tourists, I'm sure there are lots of things that annoy the TI but they don't know that. They have limited know how about the sport and just want to do something "crazy" to tell their friends and family about. Naturally in todays world, everyone wants to put it on youtube.

Again, I have no experience and only 7 aff jumps, so I am just stating my side and telling all the TI instructors out there that we are sorry it annoys you and are grateful for your expertise in the sport and that is why we put our lives in your hands within seconds of meeting you. Wink


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #30 of 59 (1642 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The TI essentially had to hold her arm in place the entire time. It would have been easier to just have the camera on his hand.
I've only done one tandem with the student wearing a GoPro handcam. I had to point the video a bit for the student, but that was additional services, not required on my part.

I found it not distracting or a hazard to the jump. How well their video turned out I don't know.

I've also had people jump with small still cameras on their wrist and they've taken pictures both in freefall and under canopy. Once again I haven't found it to be a problem.

It certainly keeps them from grabbing my hands and handles. Wink


matt3sa  (D 29266)

Nov 5, 2012, 8:50 PM
Post #31 of 59 (1499 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

All my students hang on to their harness until I give them the tap on the wrists. My personal reasoning for that is that I don't want their hand anywhere near a drogue deployment. Feel free to criticize that by saying that if I was doing my job it wouldn't be an issue, but putting a GoPro on a hand adds an additional snag point for drogue deployment (in the event that they don't listen and pop their hands out right away) and furthermore it undercuts small DZ's making any money. I work at a small Cessna dropzone where we pay 60% of our Tandem fee to the pilot (who owns the plane). Selling a videos is an important part of our survival.


Ron

Nov 6, 2012, 6:48 PM
Post #32 of 59 (1447 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Heres a video:

Still can't find how many tandems you have.

And the quality of the video is not the point.... It is the fact that on opening the camera could hit the TI knocking him out or getting entangled.

Safety, not quality of video is the topic you have not answered.


EOCS  (C License)

Nov 13, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #33 of 59 (1291 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
IMO it was quite ok.
if it was a guy passenger, you wouldn't say that. It was OKish becaus there was some cleavage

You sir had me go back a page to check said video..... i was not disappointed :P

as for T-passengers having cameras. Being one of the ones who started with a camera well below 200 jumps i still dont think its a good idea. there is no way in hell i could have done what i needed to do on my first jumps while having a camera and trying to get any shots, its just not feasible.


BMFin

Nov 14, 2012, 6:18 AM
Post #34 of 59 (1252 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And the quality of the video is not the point.... It is the fact that on opening the camera could hit the TI knocking him out or getting entangled.

Safety, not quality of video is the topic you have not answered.

Agreed. Quality is not the point. Safety is. Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%. This makes the tandemjump safer.

The go pro isnt going to knock anyone out or get entangled any more than a normal altimeter on the students wrist. Your argument is weak.


Ron

Nov 14, 2012, 6:26 AM
Post #35 of 59 (1245 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Agreed. Quality is not the point. Safety is. Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%. This makes the tandemjump safer.

Still waiting for you to tell everyone how many tandem instructor jumps you have.

If you want to make it safer, let the student put concentration on arching, not getting good video.

Quote:
The go pro isnt going to knock anyone out or get entangled any more than a normal altimeter on the students wrist. Your argument is weak.

The go pro is MUCH taller than an altimeter, your argument is pathetic.

BTW, how many TI jumps do you have? (4th or 5th time I have asked you to provide some background for your *expert* opinion).


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 14, 2012, 8:31 AM
Post #36 of 59 (1218 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Agreed. Quality is not the point. Safety is. Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%. This makes the tandemjump safer.

Still waiting for you to tell everyone how many tandem instructor jumps you have.

If you want to make it safer, let the student put concentration on arching, not getting good video.

Quote:
The go pro isnt going to knock anyone out or get entangled any more than a normal altimeter on the students wrist. Your argument is weak.

The go pro is MUCH taller than an altimeter, your argument is pathetic.

BTW, how many TI jumps do you have? (4th or 5th time I have asked you to provide some background for your *expert* opinion).

He has an opinion, but I'd question the "expert" bit.

I suspect he's never heard of Murphy......


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 14, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #37 of 59 (1205 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Agreed. Quality is not the point. Safety is. Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%. This makes the tandemjump safer.

Still waiting for you to tell everyone how many tandem instructor jumps you have.

If you want to make it safer, let the student put concentration on arching, not getting good video.

Quote:
The go pro isnt going to knock anyone out or get entangled any more than a normal altimeter on the students wrist. Your argument is weak.

The go pro is MUCH taller than an altimeter, your argument is pathetic.

BTW, how many TI jumps do you have? (4th or 5th time I have asked you to provide some background for your *expert* opinion).

Well, I have 2500+ T-I jumps, 500+ T-Evaluator jumps.
At first I thought this was a bad idea, but more, and more, I think it is no worse than a Hand Cam on the T-I, since the industry has decided that Tandem jumping is just money making jumps any way.

So the T-I teaches the Arch, and Hand/Camera Placement.

Then the T-I can go back to doing what they are REQUIRED to do. and do their Handle Checks, and watch their drift ,and look for hazards, and all the Student-Instructor Safety stuff, they tend to ignore once they get complacent, you know after a weekend of "real" students.

Matt


Ron

Nov 14, 2012, 10:07 AM
Post #38 of 59 (1188 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matthewcline] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So the T-I teaches the Arch, and Hand/Camera Placement.

You have the experience to have an opinion... I just disagree with it and considering your rant about WS safety, I am shocked that you are so cavalier with a tandem student's life.

Quote:
Then the T-I can go back to doing what they are REQUIRED to do. and do their Handle Checks, and watch their drift ,and look for hazards, and all the Student-Instructor Safety stuff, they tend to ignore once they get complacent, you know after a weekend of "real" students.

Any TI that says you can't do handle checks when jumping a HC is smoking crack.

Any TI that does not do handle checks... Should not be a TI IMO.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 14, 2012, 11:30 AM
Post #39 of 59 (1168 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

>Therefore give the camera to the student and let the TI focus on the jump 100%.
>This makes the tandemjump safer.

I've never hit myself in the face with my hand. Students have hit me.

One hit me hard enough that I had trouble seeing. This worried me. After opening I realized it was the blood from my lip that was covering my goggles, and that my eyes were fine. Very glad they did not have a GoPro on their hand.


BMFin

Nov 14, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #40 of 59 (1164 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

One hit me hard enough that I had trouble seeing. This worried me. After opening I realized it was the blood from my lip that was covering my goggles, and that my eyes were fine. Very glad they did not have a GoPro on their hand.

Did the student have an altimeter?


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 14, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #41 of 59 (1143 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
So the T-I teaches the Arch, and Hand/Camera Placement.

You have the experience to have an opinion... I just disagree with it and considering your rant about WS safety, I am shocked that you are so cavalier with a tandem student's life.

Quote:
Then the T-I can go back to doing what they are REQUIRED to do. and do their Handle Checks, and watch their drift ,and look for hazards, and all the Student-Instructor Safety stuff, they tend to ignore once they get complacent, you know after a weekend of "real" students.

Any TI that says you can't do handle checks when jumping a HC is smoking crack.

Any TI that does not do handle checks... Should not be a TI IMO.

I am not cavalier, I am being practical (and you're cherry picking my early WS Rating stance, it has changed with education, BTW).

T-I's have shown they fail to do the handle checks when wearing a Hand Cam, T-I's have shown they fail to do EP's when needed when wearing a Hand Cam.

I KNOW, from experience, it can be done and it won't detract from the video.

Hand Cams are here to stay. So lets put the Instructor back in charge of the safety of the jump, as they should be, and let the student fret over the video.

Matt


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 14, 2012, 2:24 PM
Post #42 of 59 (1126 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

>Did the student have an altimeter?

Yep. Fortunately a wrist mount.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Nov 14, 2012, 3:22 PM
Post #43 of 59 (1103 views)
Shortcut
Re: gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be afraid the students would be banging my camera on stuff and scratching up my lens. I'd rather hold it myself, but to each their own. People were duct taping PC7's to their student's hands even before handcam gloves were around. Nothing new, it's just a bigger deal nowadays.


Ron

Nov 14, 2012, 5:04 PM
Post #44 of 59 (1079 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matthewcline] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
T-I's have shown they fail to do the handle checks when wearing a Hand Cam, T-I's have shown they fail to do EP's when needed when wearing a Hand Cam.

I KNOW, from experience, it can be done and it won't detract from the video.

You know it can be done, yet just give up and decide to complicate the students job AND the instructors job since they do not do the right thing.... Sorry, I call that cavalier.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 14, 2012, 5:27 PM
Post #45 of 59 (1075 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
T-I's have shown they fail to do the handle checks when wearing a Hand Cam, T-I's have shown they fail to do EP's when needed when wearing a Hand Cam.

I KNOW, from experience, it can be done and it won't detract from the video.

You know it can be done, yet just give up and decide to complicate the students job AND the instructors job since they do not do the right thing.... Sorry, I call that cavalier.

I think, that word does not mean, what you think it means.

If we aren't going to ban them (or at least "regulate" them), then get them OFF the instructors hands so he can do what he is legally and morally obliged to do, take care of his Student!

Matt


parachutist  (D 25468)

Nov 14, 2012, 9:29 PM
Post #46 of 59 (1055 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matthewcline] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
then get them OFF the instructors hands so he can do what he is legally and morally obliged to do, take care of his Student!

Part of "taking care of the student" is making sure they can focus on their job in this new exciting activity. It's teamwork between the instructor and the student. When the student is preoccupied with aiming a camera, he's not as able to focus on the basics of arching and learning stable freefall.

Besides that, it's free advertising when students post their videos online. I'd rather it be an enjoyable video that draws others to my DZ, instead of a haphazard home movie shot by a first-timer.

Chris


DougH  (D License)

Nov 15, 2012, 6:47 AM
Post #47 of 59 (1005 views)
Shortcut
Re: [parachutist] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Students don't need to aim the camera. The assume a normal free fall position. The assume a normal tandem student exit with a safety position that keeps their hands and elbows in against their chest.

They have a wide angle GoPro on their wrist, all the have to do is arch and smile. If anything it reminds them not to sweep their hands back behind them like many students do despite being trained otherwise.

There are bigger fish to fry, for example tandem mills where students never get on a creeper, and whose training amounts to meeting their instructor at the running plane and being told arch arch arch banana banana.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Nov 15, 2012, 7:14 AM
Post #48 of 59 (996 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DougH] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree with Doug on this one. I've worked at three dropzones where we did handcam as either the only option or as a secondary option. I've done it with PC 109's, GoPros, and Contours. From plenty of personal experience I can tell you it's 100 times easier these days with GoPro's and Contours than it was in the tape-camera days. MUCH lighter and less obtrusive. I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: I'm totally cool with putting the ( GoPro or Contour) glove on the student. This assuming that, like normal, I've got plenty of time on the ground to give my whole briefing in the school or at the mock-up. I wouldn't put it on their hand at a place where "we'll talk about it on the way up." My students always wear altimiters, too and are generally always given the option to deploy the parachute..

Chuck


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 15, 2012, 7:59 AM
Post #49 of 59 (990 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SkymonkeyONE] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I totally agree with Doug on this one. I've worked at three dropzones where we did handcam as either the only option or as a secondary option. I've done it with PC 109's, GoPros, and Contours. From plenty of personal experience I can tell you it's 100 times easier these days with GoPro's and Contours than it was in the tape-camera days. MUCH lighter and less obtrusive. I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: I'm totally cool with putting the ( GoPro or Contour) glove on the student. This assuming that, like normal, I've got plenty of time on the ground to give my whole briefing in the school or at the mock-up. I wouldn't put it on their hand at a place where "we'll talk about it on the way up." My students always wear altimiters, too and are generally always given the option to deploy the parachute..

Chuck

^ This!

Matt


Ron

Nov 19, 2012, 7:54 AM
Post #50 of 59 (713 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matthewcline] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think, that word does not mean, what you think it means.

Cavalier: Showing arrogant or offhand disregard. I'd say that word fits perfectly.

Quote:
take care of his Student!

That would include not giving the student extra duties that would complicate the skydive.

If a seasoned TI can't fly a HC and fly a tandem, he should quit doing tandems. Does it increase the risk? YES. But it is MUCH more manageable than giving it to the student, and any TI with any skill should be able to pull it off.


(This post was edited by Ron on Nov 19, 2012, 7:57 AM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 19, 2012, 9:55 AM
Post #51 of 59 (714 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

If a seasoned TI can't fly a HC and fly a tandem, he should quit doing tandems. Does it increase the risk? YES. But it is MUCH more manageable than giving it to the student, and any TI with any skill should be able to pull it off.

Agreed, but as much as seeing T-Students wearing cameras bothers me, (a bit off topic here) worse IMHO is newley minted TI's wearing them. Again, I'm not a TI but I have a strong Smile opinion.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 19, 2012, 10:03 AM
Post #52 of 59 (704 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Stolen from a Camera Forums thread....

http://www.dropzone.com/...t;postatt_id=136116;

A picture is worth a bizillion words.


Ron

Nov 19, 2012, 10:26 AM
Post #53 of 59 (699 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
worse IMHO is newley minted TI's wearing them.

Which is why at my DZ newly minted TI's are not allowed to wear HC. They can only do L2 tandems, tandems without video, or tandems that have outside video. This makes it very difficult for the newly minted TI's to get experience, but that is a small price to pay to make sure they are ready for the HC when they start jumping one.

In fact, I had maybe 800-1000 tandems on Strong and an old Sigma rating 10 years ago and they made me do 25 Tandems on Sigmas again before I was allowed to wear a HC.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Nov 19, 2012, 11:49 AM
Post #54 of 59 (687 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

There are chicken handles attached to the upper part of the student harness. This most likely is a staged picture with an exerianced skydiver on front


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Nov 19, 2012, 12:20 PM)


DanielL  (D License)

Nov 19, 2012, 12:01 PM
Post #55 of 59 (683 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Stolen from a Camera Forums thread....

This photo was taken through a tandem instructor course...


(This post was edited by DanielL on Nov 19, 2012, 12:02 PM)


jrouse  (B 38781)

Nov 19, 2012, 2:51 PM
Post #56 of 59 (648 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DougH] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

There are bigger fish to fry, for example tandem mills where students never get on a creeper, and whose training amounts to meeting their instructor at the running plane and being told arch arch arch banana banana.

Wow Doug it was like you were at my first tandem jump! Laugh BANANA!!!


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Nov 20, 2012, 10:36 PM
Post #57 of 59 (545 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi

You think wrong buddy.

The tandem pax is not a camera person not even a skydiver - he/her are a tandem pax -that's all.

You never know where he/her hands will travel with the camera & you never know how he/her will act during the tandem jump.

It is a snag point & nothing to compeer with an altimeter.

TI is a Ti - Pax is a Pax - Camera flyer is the Camera flyer = so simple !!!

Be Safe !!!


Abedy  (D 10153)

Nov 21, 2012, 8:45 AM
Post #58 of 59 (502 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Stolen from a Camera Forums thread....

http://www.dropzone.com/...t;postatt_id=136116;

A picture is worth a bizillion words.

In this case the pic is misleading. The person geeking the cam is a very experienced TI/E, 9000+ jumps and this is a jump done at a TI course! Heh, heh!


(This post was edited by Abedy on Nov 21, 2012, 8:47 AM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 22, 2012, 10:14 AM
Post #59 of 59 (417 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Abedy] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

In this case the pic is misleading. The person geeking the cam is a very experienced TI/E, 9000+ jumps and this is a jump done at a TI course! Heh, heh!

So, you're saying even an experienced TI/E with over 9K jumps can't exit correctly because of the camera distraction? Wow, this is worse than I imagined. Wink



Forums : Skydiving : Tandem Skydiving

 


Search for (options)