Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
So what do you see in this video?

 


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Oct 13, 2012, 11:56 PM
Post #1 of 45 (6530 views)
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So what do you see in this video? Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_-wbaY14GI

Skip to 4:40 unless you want to see a lot of boring freefall.

Anything unusual?

Sure took his canopy a while to settle down...huh.


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Oct 14, 2012, 12:00 AM)


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 14, 2012, 12:25 AM
Post #2 of 45 (6483 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Human-assisted PC in tow FTW


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Oct 14, 2012, 12:30 AM
Post #3 of 45 (6480 views)
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Re: [-SK-] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thats the easy one (gonna get those last 4-5 seconds of free fall! Unsure).

Theres more, keep looking..


Squeak  (E 1313)

Oct 14, 2012, 1:54 AM
Post #4 of 45 (6464 views)
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blocked in my country


EOCS  (C License)

Oct 14, 2012, 3:00 AM
Post #5 of 45 (6447 views)
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Re: [Squeak] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mine aswell


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 14, 2012, 3:12 AM
Post #6 of 45 (6440 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps not the best way to stow the brakes? Wink
(image attached)


(This post was edited by -SK- on Oct 14, 2012, 3:17 AM)
Attachments: Image2.jpg (149 KB)


strife  (D 5457)

Oct 14, 2012, 3:36 AM
Post #7 of 45 (6428 views)
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Re: [Squeak] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
blocked in my country

this works around it for me

http://www.yt.g00p.com/watch?v=k_-wbaY14GI

http://u2bp.com/


crazyboy  (D License)

Oct 14, 2012, 6:35 AM
Post #8 of 45 (6373 views)
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Re: [strife] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Container is open before he releases his pc...


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 14, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #9 of 45 (6336 views)
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Re: [crazyboy] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ya don't want to be hanging on to them pilot chutes!LaughLaugh

Was he afraid he wasn't going to find it?Tongue


theonlyski  (D License)

Oct 15, 2012, 7:25 AM
Post #10 of 45 (6120 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like he's having an awful hard time with the potato chipping and wearing a hand camera...


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Oct 15, 2012, 8:05 AM
Post #11 of 45 (6096 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome handcam potato chipping...Check

Holding on to your PC for 4+ seconds...Check

Causing your container to come open while holding you PC...Check

Either not stowing you brake properly, or having a brake release on opening...Check

But it's a HALO!
Attachments: Closing pin out.png (144 KB)
  Toggle unstowed.png (124 KB)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 15, 2012, 8:23 AM
Post #12 of 45 (6078 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Either not stowing you brake properly, or having a brake release on opening...Check

The brake was stowed. You can see that the cats eye is still in the vicinity of the guide ring, and that would not be down there if the canopy was packed with the brake unstowed.

That said, look at the other side, there's a considerable loop of excess brake line, and it's been left to swing free in the breeze. I would call that a mistake.

Hanging on the PC defies explanation. How or why the jumper could have thought this was a good idea in any respect is beyond me. I'm willing to accept that he was unaware that his container was opened when he pulled the PC, but that still leaves he problem of the bridle blowing around in the wind the whole time he's holding the PC.

Have a look down below his cutaway handle. The text below the video reveals that for some reason he's wearing some sort of WWII uniform for the jump. and you can clearly see that the shirt has worked it's way out from under the pants and harness, and is on it's way toward coming out and blowing up over his cutaway handle. Combine that with the O2 bottle and hose, and the sloppy packing/brake setting, and you have one hell of a HALO jump on your hands.


theonlyski  (D License)

Oct 15, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #13 of 45 (6043 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Awesome handcam potato chipping...Check

Holding on to your PC for 4+ seconds...Check

Causing your container to come open while holding you PC...Check

Either not stowing you brake properly, or having a brake release on opening...Check

But it's a HALO!

Don't forget the whole VFR cloud clearance requirements.


theonlyski  (D License)

Oct 15, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #14 of 45 (6040 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hanging on the PC defies explanation. How or why the jumper could have thought this was a good idea in any respect is beyond me. I'm willing to accept that he was unaware that his container was opened when he pulled the PC, but that still leaves he problem of the bridle blowing around in the wind the whole time he's holding the PC.

I think there is a very good chance that he didn't realize he was holding on to the PC. Thick enough gloves, hackey between fingers... it would be easy to think you threw it when you're still holding it.

ETA: Picture attached.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Oct 15, 2012, 9:28 AM)
Attachments: hackey.jpg (11.0 KB)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 15, 2012, 10:14 AM
Post #15 of 45 (6009 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think there is a very good chance that he didn't realize he was holding on to the PC.

It does sort of look like that. Still, ya gotta be a bit clueless and/or have a crappy toss technique and/or be hypoxic for that.

My first impression was that it looks like he hadn't jumped since about 1978... pull out that newfangled pilot chute and wave off with it...


excaza  (C License)

Oct 15, 2012, 10:41 AM
Post #16 of 45 (5995 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would express some sort of concern that my chute hadn't started deploying after 5 seconds and at least looked over at my hand. That he didn't do either makes me think that it was intentional. Bizarre either way...


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 15, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #17 of 45 (5986 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think there is a very good chance that he didn't realize he was holding on to the PC. Thick enough gloves, hackey between fingers... it would be easy to think you threw it when you're still holding it.

I'm going to disagree with that idea. If you look, his hand is clearly clenched in a fist holding the PC and then is intentionally released when the PC departs. There is no head movement in concert with that action, to show that he might have seen his PC was still in his hand. It looks to me like he held it until he was going into the cloud (for some odd reason).

I'd like to add another 'squawk' to the video review, that being what appears to be loose excess legstrap blowing around in between his legs. Nothing but more sloppy airmanship on his part. On the upside, he managed to make sure his camera was turned on.

Someone mentioned the cloud bust, but I'm willing to give him a pass on that. The layer is fairly broken as seen in the video, and if he hit a 'cloud' instead of a 'break' from 29k ft, that's an honest mistake.


cocheese  (D 24000)

Oct 15, 2012, 2:29 PM
Post #18 of 45 (5889 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Clothing choice indicates possible hypoxia before he put the rig on.Wink


Shredex

Oct 15, 2012, 2:38 PM
Post #19 of 45 (5884 views)
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Re: [cocheese] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

It almost looks like they pulled off the risers from the 3 ring system then slid the toggles up the risers then put it back on...rendering the toggles almost useless.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 15, 2012, 3:11 PM
Post #20 of 45 (5861 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

He's using a pull-out, not a throw out. You see that in SEREJumper's picture above. Hence, he knows when the container opens.

AFAIK, techniques for pull-out and throw-out are a little different if only for the reason of making sure the pin actually gets pulled. I agree maybe not to the length of time that this jumper shows.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 15, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #21 of 45 (5849 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
He's using a pull-out, not a throw out

No sir. If that was a pull-out, he would be holding a pud with the PC trailing behind the pud at the end of a lanyard. Also, all of the pull outs I have jumped have the PC attached to the bridle at the base, not the apex, so once the PC is in the wind it inflates and pulls the pud right out of your hand.

He's holding onto a handle attached directly to the apex of the PC, just like a throw out. This explains why he is even able to trail it for so long without the PC inflating and being pulled out of his hand.


RIGGER160  (D 12345)

Oct 15, 2012, 3:37 PM
Post #22 of 45 (5834 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Robert, however I doubt Jeff Napier or anyone else for that matter will be calling out Mike on this.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Oct 15, 2012, 7:05 PM
Post #23 of 45 (5764 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
He's using a pull-out, not a throw out

No sir. If that was a pull-out, ...

I think this image shows it is throw out.
Attachments: throw out pc.jpg (37.7 KB)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Oct 15, 2012, 7:22 PM
Post #24 of 45 (5751 views)
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Re: [Divalent] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether it is a pull out or not it's pretty stupid to intentionally hang on to it.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 16, 2012, 3:16 PM
Post #25 of 45 (5625 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
He's using a pull-out, not a throw out. You see that in SEREJumper's picture above. Hence, he knows when the container opens.

AFAIK, techniques for pull-out and throw-out are a little different if only for the reason of making sure the pin actually gets pulled. I agree maybe not to the length of time that this jumper shows.

Pop, look at this picture closely, you can see the curved pin.

http://www.dropzone.com/...t;postatt_id=135750;

His O2 mask doesn’t fit. It is riding up over his shin.

Sparky


Shredex

Oct 16, 2012, 3:52 PM
Post #26 of 45 (1546 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure there was a reason for it.
Last I've checked when someone does that they flip over from the pilot pulling up. For some reason this guy's didn't...


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 16, 2012, 5:31 PM
Post #27 of 45 (1520 views)
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Re: [Shredex] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Last I've checked when someone does that they flip over from the pilot pulling up. For some reason this guy's didn't...

When did you check on that? Either way, a throw out PC has the handle mounted to the apex of the PC, so if you hold the handle, the PC will trail, apex-first, in the wind and not inflate. No inflation = very little drag to pull the jumper up and over.

A pull out PC is set up the other way, the handle is mounted to the base of the PC. When you hold the handle and put the PC in the wind, it will inflate and the handle will get yanked out of your hand.

The last thing you want to do with a pull out is attempt to hang onto the handle. First off, if your PC is out, your container is open on a pull out, so if you did try to hang onto the PC and went ustable, you would be unstable with an open container. This is why the handle is on the base of the PC, so you really can't hang onto it due to the drag of the PC.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 16, 2012, 5:50 PM
Post #28 of 45 (1516 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK my bad.


-ftp-

Oct 17, 2012, 2:03 PM
Post #29 of 45 (1403 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

His O2 mask doesn’t fit. It is riding up over his shin.

Sparky

Wow all the way to his shin Tongue


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 17, 2012, 2:25 PM
Post #30 of 45 (1394 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Chit disturber! Smile


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 17, 2012, 5:53 PM
Post #31 of 45 (1357 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

His O2 mask doesn’t fit. It is riding up over his shin.

Sparky

Wow all the way to his shin Tongue

I think it was changed by one of the Greenies. Tongue

Sparky


freeflyfree  (D 28117)

Oct 18, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #32 of 45 (1302 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all Pull Outs have the handle at the base of the pilotchute, mine has it on the Apex of it, so when I pull I can get a full arm extension before releasing it. and not get it inflated as soon as it sees air.

Container: Mirage.

Felipe


jdpml  (D 18680)

Oct 20, 2012, 2:30 PM
Post #33 of 45 (1190 views)
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Re: [freeflyfree] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your mistaken about the pull out , it can be mounted so the pilot chute comes out upside down and may be held on to .
I have several jumps on this system and 7000 + on a regular pull out , not the best way to use a pull out as a total is EASY to pack into it if you dont know what your doing :-)))


ChrisClark  (D 8433)

Oct 21, 2012, 1:05 PM
Post #34 of 45 (1081 views)
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Re: [freeflyfree] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you post a picture of your main pilot chute. Just curious because that type of set-up was subject to a UK safety notice in 1984 after a pilot-chute in tow when the handle and lanyard entangled with the bridle.


Deyan  (D 322)

Oct 21, 2012, 2:57 PM
Post #35 of 45 (1066 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A pull out PC is set up the other way, the handle is mounted to the base of the PC. When you hold the handle and put the PC in the wind, it will inflate and the handle will get yanked out of your hand.

Most, but not all pull outs are set this way. Please check Next manual page 25 picture 38.

http://www.paratec.de/...ue-02-2010_email.pdf


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 22, 2012, 1:59 AM
Post #36 of 45 (1031 views)
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Re: [Deyan] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
A pull out PC is set up the other way, the handle is mounted to the base of the PC. When you hold the handle and put the PC in the wind, it will inflate and the handle will get yanked out of your hand.

Most, but not all pull outs are set this way. Please check Next manual page 25 picture 38.

http://www.paratec.de/...ue-02-2010_email.pdf

I love the way they say their style of pull out has less pack volume the other kind. They have got to be kidding. Any volume difference would have to be measured in sq. millimeters.

Pack volume is greatly reduced, since it gets by with just one piece of tape unlike the more complex construction of a base Pull-Out-System requiring T4 tapes and grommets.

I have always thought that a pull out just adds one more layer of complexity and one more thing to get wrong.

Sparky


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 22, 2012, 7:27 AM
Post #37 of 45 (1005 views)
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Re: [Deyan] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Most, but not all pull outs are set this way.

I'm not sure why they think that would be in improvement over a handle attached to the base of the PC. The idea behind attaching it at the base of the PC is that by the time the PC is in the airstream, the pin has been pulled and the container is open. At this point, the last thing you want to do is hang on to your PC, so mounting it at the base makes it very tough to hang onto the thing.

So they reduced the pack volume by a tiny bit, but made it possible to hang onto your PC while your container is open. Seems like a trade-off to me, and a shitty one at that.


Deyan  (D 322)

Oct 22, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #38 of 45 (965 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Most, but not all pull outs are set this way.

I'm not sure why they think that would be in improvement over a handle attached to the base of the PC. The idea behind attaching it at the base of the PC is that by the time the PC is in the airstream, the pin has been pulled and the container is open. At this point, the last thing you want to do is hang on to your PC, so mounting it at the base makes it very tough to hang onto the thing.

I'm sure that if you drop them an e-mail, Stefan or Jupp will answer your questions.
The only reason I could think of why this pull out is set this way is to keep it as close as possible to the throw out as a feeling. By the time you get the pin out, the PC will be already half way out....then again, the best answer will come from Paratec.
The real pull out might be problematic for someone with short hands or a cameraman with big wings.

Quote:
So they reduced the pack volume by a tiny bit, but made it possible to hang onto your PC while your container is open. Seems like a trade-off to me, and a shitty one at that.

If you hold on to your PC on a throw out system, the chance that your container will be open as well is close to 100% , so I don't see the problem here. But I might be wrong that the chance is that big.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 22, 2012, 5:19 PM
Post #39 of 45 (947 views)
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Re: [Deyan] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you hold on to your PC on a throw out system, the chance that your container will be open as well is close to 100% , so I don't see the problem here. But I might be wrong that the chance is that big.

The chance is way lower than 100%. All of the times I've seen someone hang onto a PC were students, and none of them had their container open before they finally released the PC.

I think it all comes down to how you pack your PC and bridle. If the bridle is allowed to unfurl the moment the PC is out of the pouch, it probably won't pull your pin when you get your PC to full arms extension. If your bridle is packed in such a way that it does not easily slip out of the PC, then you will probably pull your pin as you bring your arm forward.

Quote:
The real pull out might be problematic for someone with short hands or a cameraman with big wings.

Which would be a reason not to jump a pull out. Re-engineering the pull out to allow for hanging onto the PC with an open container does not seem like the answer.


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Oct 22, 2012, 8:01 PM
Post #40 of 45 (923 views)
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Re: So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

USPA SIM:

G. Minimum opening altitudes [E]

Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:

1. Tandem jumps—4,500 feet AGL

2. All students and A-license holders—3,000 feet AGL

3. B-license holders—2,500 feet AGL

4. C- and D-license holders—2,000 feet AGL




Looks to me like his container is open. What's the problem? Angelic


jclalor  (B 33202)

Nov 2, 2012, 8:46 AM
Post #41 of 45 (814 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

My favorite pilot chutenvideo.


http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=mcth144dd#/user/rbobby52


(This post was edited by jclalor on Nov 2, 2012, 8:57 AM)


Trafficdiver  (D License)

Nov 3, 2012, 2:28 PM
Post #42 of 45 (742 views)
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Re: [jclalor] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My favorite pilot chutenvideo.


http://m.youtube.com/...144dd#/user/rbobby52


freeflyfree  (D 28117)

Nov 9, 2012, 12:10 AM
Post #43 of 45 (652 views)
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Re: [Trafficdiver] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mirage's, I remember explicitly writing "on the apex of pilot chute" I don't know if they offer it at the bottom

http://www.miragesys.com/...g3/deployment-style/


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 9, 2012, 4:45 AM
Post #44 of 45 (622 views)
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Re: [freeflyfree] So what do you see in this video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I remember explicitly writing "on the apex of pilot chute" I don't know if they offer it at the bottom

Do you mean the Mirage pull-out PC has the handle attached to the apex of the PC? The last pull out I jumped was a Mirage, and the lanyard was attached to the bottom of the PC.

Again, for operational reasons I think they attach it to the bottom, I would be surprised if you could order it attached to the apex.


freeflyfree  (D 28117)

Nov 9, 2012, 6:35 AM
Post #45 of 45 (602 views)
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Quote:
I would be surprised if you could order it attached to the apex.
Quote:

It was something my rigger wrote in the order form, the option is not there, it just says "pull out".

A few of my friend had them like that, back in those days 2000 pahokee.

I heard of a case where the bridle was packed sawndwiched between the bottom of the reserve tray and the Dbag, and didn't want to come out and play resulting on some kind of malfunction...I don't remember details.

Felipe



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