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Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway?

 

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-SK-  (A License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:20 PM
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Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? Can't Post

I'm relatively new to the sport and still renting gear from my home DZ. Recently I had a malfunctioning main and had to cutaway / pull reserve. Since we had a long spot the main landed off the DZ and they had to go look for it and hadn't found it yet by the time I had left. The whole time the pilot and the DZ owner were giving me shit about it, telling me how much it costs and acting like I did something wrong by not flying an unsafe canopy to the ground. Then they tried to act like the long spot was somehow my fault, even though it was a 3-way and the lead guy took forever to begin the count. Not once did they ask if I was okay, just seemed pissed off about the missing main. It wasn't even my pack job, first jump of the day using a rig from the rack.

I may be way off base here but that doesn't sound very safe to me, I mean doesn't that discourage people from cutting away a bad canopy if they know they are going to be guilted about it later?

Do all DZ's do this or do I need to find a new home DZ?


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:24 PM
Post #2 of 98 (10467 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Out of general curiosity, who spotted the load and what was the malfunction?

Any reason why you were unable to stay and help with the search?


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:32 PM
Post #3 of 98 (10458 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

How much time did you personally spend looking for the main? If not, why not? And did you make anymore jumps that day?


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #4 of 98 (10442 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Out of general curiosity, who spotted the load and what was the malfunction?

Any reason why you were unable to stay and help with the search?

In reply to:
How much time did you personally spend looking for the main? If not, why not? And did you make anymore jumps that day?

It was only the three of us and the pilot spotted and opened the door when he decided we should jump. Had an out of sequence opening (pretty sure the lines were improperly stowed) and line twists several times over that I couldn't kick out of. It was a sunset load so there wasn't much light left to look for it. I stayed until the sunlight ran out and then everyone went home including me.


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:47 PM
Post #5 of 98 (10431 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It was only the three of us and the pilot spotted and opened the door when he decided we should jump

You are responsible for the spot, not the pilot.

Quote:
Had an out of sequence opening (pretty sure the lines were improperly stowed) and line twists several times over that I couldn't kick out of.

So your container opened before you deployed the PC?

I'm just trying to figure out what the deal was.

A DZO of a small 182 DZ might be a bit upset if a main was chopped at 5k regardless of the reason due to the cost of replacing the main, d-bag, risers and PC (and cutaway handle/reserve handle on occasion). That is a significant amount of money for an operation that is probably razor thin to begin with. However, it isn't worth getting killed over. Is it possible that he was upset due to other factors? Altitude the cutaway happened, for example?


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Oct 8, 2012, 7:50 PM)


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:59 PM
Post #6 of 98 (10408 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a 2500 cutaway, was trained that that was my "decision altitude", kept both handles.

I understand canopies are expensive, but my point is, if they are going to give you crap about it, doesn't that present a potentially unsafe dilemma to the skydiver under a bad or less-than-ideal main? If they are that expensive they should be charging more for gear rental which I would happily pay for the extra peace of mind.


(This post was edited by -SK- on Oct 8, 2012, 8:00 PM)


rtroup  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #7 of 98 (10349 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

You saved your life and you should be proud of yourself. Next time you find yourself with what may be an unsafe parachute to land please don't hesitate to chop cause you are worried about what people on the ground may say.

I don't think its ever appropriate to make someone feel bad, or stupid about chopping even if chopping wasn't necessary.(not saying this was your case) Cause next time they might not chop what definitely is an unsafe canopy to land.

If it were me i would be looking for a new DZ with people who are sympathetic and choose further training over berating.


kojak001  (Student)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:22 PM
Post #8 of 98 (10344 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Help the owner find the main than find a new DZ.


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:24 PM
Post #9 of 98 (10338 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but my point is, if they are going to give you crap about it, doesn't that present a potentially unsafe dilemma to the skydiver under a bad or less-than-ideal main?

Only if your stupid enough to let that kind of thing lead you to bounce because your worried it would cost money or you'll get shit from the DZO & staff.

Quote:
If they are that expensive they should be charging more for gear rental which I would happily pay for the extra peace of mind.

The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

That said: we generally give a pass or two to students because your a student.... However, I would expect you to show up the next day to help look for the lost gear and the day after if that is what it took to find it.....

If you were to blow off that helping to find, I would not be real friendly to you on your return and most likely would hand you a bill for the lost gear.

I have spent a better part of two days crawling on hands and knees to find a lost cutway in a very large corn field, and hell we even had a damn good idea where it went. So put in some effort call the DZ and or head back out there and help look for the shit, you never know others might help you look too.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:29 PM
Post #10 of 98 (10333 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Was it windy ( drifting cut-away ) ? Was it city-ish where it might land in a backyard somewhere, or country-ish where it would likely be found the next day laying in a field close by ?.......If you need to cut-away, cut-away.......


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:54 PM
Post #11 of 98 (10305 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

As a comment, I'm not sure the rules (whatever they are) are very clearly spelled out at some DZ's. It might also depend on whether one is a student or licensed. With skydiving equipment one does have the issue that with mals it can be difficult to apportion blame. All that can lead to conflict when something does go wrong...


Maksimsf  (B 37743)

Oct 8, 2012, 9:08 PM
Post #12 of 98 (10275 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

i chopped rental once at infamous DZ that charge $35 for jump with a rental. didn't get charged a penny and been told to get another rig and get back on the horse. It's a good question. I still jump rental at my home DZ and I will probably ask my DZO next time about that. All I know is no matter what you jump (own or rental) - If you chop - you have to buy a big ass Jack D for the rigger.. Laugh


(This post was edited by Maksimsf on Oct 8, 2012, 9:10 PM)


jshiloh

Oct 8, 2012, 9:19 PM
Post #13 of 98 (10260 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I understand canopies are expensive, but my point is, if they are going to give you crap about it, doesn't that present a potentially unsafe dilemma to the skydiver under a bad or less-than-ideal main?

A few years back at my (former) home DZ there were a couple incidents where someone cutaway & the DZO & other staff heavily criticized the jumpers. Similar to what you describe, no one at the DZ asked if the jumper was ok, or wanted to know the details of what happened. All they were concerned about was the cost/effort at retrieving the mains. Not long after that a newb had a malfunction. She fought a spinning canopy all the way to the ground. She will never walk again. When asked why she didn't cut away, she said she didn't want to get yelled at so chose to try her hardest to correct the problem...next thing she knew, all she saw was dirt.

Safety should NEVER take a back seat to cost, machismo, ego, or anything else. What should have happened is a check to make sure the jumper was ok, then find the main, then do a complete debrief to determine what went wrong & why you did what you did. If the DZO or your instructor felt the cutaway was premature, then he should calmly & properly instruct you on how to deal with the problem in the future. Honestly, if I were you, I'd find a new DZ. This one sounds like it's more concerned with $$$ than it is with safety & proper instruction.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Oct 8, 2012, 9:38 PM
Post #14 of 98 (10237 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

That said: we generally give a pass or two to students because your a student.... However, I would expect you to show up the next day to help look for the lost gear and the day after if that is what it took to find it.....
According to his profile he has an A. Nope! If you rented the main you need to return the main. Your responsibility.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:02 PM
Post #15 of 98 (10191 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of DZ's have their policy about that stuff in the waiver you signed.

Also sounds like a DZ that I would stop spending my money at, not even ask if you were ok? C'mon.


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Oct 8, 2012, 11:06 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 9, 2012, 3:30 AM
Post #16 of 98 (10109 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It was a 2500 cutaway, was trained that that was my "decision altitude", kept both handles.

Then I would probably spend the time needed to find the lost main and then move on to another DZ.

You may end up having to help chip in to purchase a new one.


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 9, 2012, 6:08 AM
Post #17 of 98 (10002 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Me:
Quote:
That said: we generally give a pass or two to students because your a student.... However, I would expect you to show up the next day to help look for the lost gear and the day after if that is what it took to find it.....

Pchapman:
Quote:
It might also depend on whether one is a student or licensed.

Awhite:
Quote:
According to his profile he has an A. Nope! If you rented the main you need to return the main. Your responsibility.

If you read what I wrote, I didn't say the OP was a student, I said we generally give a pass or two to students, because at that time your a student. However I would fully expect the jumper to assist in the search and finding of the lost gear. And I gave an example of the great detailed search in a corn field, you had to really crawl row to row on your knees to find it in late Sept. and it took two days of that to find it.

Also I see many of you saying to hit the road to another dz. That might be good advice or maybe the OP is reading in more then there was to it, we have not heard the DZO's or pilots side of this.

I've trained a shit load of people in 35 yrs and not everyone is sharp, seen a number of problem students who would chop if a flee farted or from simple line twist, while you can't call them a dumbass and find fault with a chop while your safe on the ground. That said, after dealing with, for months or weeks or even just days..... some people ware thin on the dzo & staff because they too dense in the head and so busy asking stupid questions they miss the important info being put forth.

So what might seem as placing a "guilt" vibe, might just be annoyed and fed up dzo and staff who spent way more time dealing with one person who is a problem child who is maybe a step or two away from the "have you ever considered taking up bowling" speech.

Or the dz this person jumps at are just assholes bent out shape over a cutaway.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Oct 9, 2012, 6:12 AM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:03 AM
Post #18 of 98 (9941 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

As a comment, I'm not sure the rules (whatever they are) are very clearly spelled out at some DZ's. It might also depend on whether one is a student or licensed. With skydiving equipment one does have the issue that with mals it can be difficult to apportion blame. All that can lead to conflict when something does go wrong...


I think this is the case at many DZs. I think there should be a clear written policy posted where everyone that rents gear can see it. I fail to see why a business owner would leave something so potentially expensive in a gray area. In my opinion though a lot of DZOs seem to have the "everything is cool and no big deal" attitude till the shit hits the fan.

My gear is insured, I don't know why a DZO wouldn't do the same.


cjsgrlsx3  (C 38727)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:37 AM
Post #19 of 98 (9904 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

My gear is also insured.....why would a DZ send a bill to a jumper for a cutaway? Next thing you know, the packer, manifested, and pilot will also have to chip in to pay for that cutaway main. All of them had a hand in getting said jumper in the air anyway, right? I know that is a little overboard but think about it.


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:39 AM
Post #20 of 98 (9897 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think this is the case at many DZs. I think there should be a clear written policy posted where everyone that rents gear can see it. I fail to see why a business owner would leave something so potentially expensive in a gray area. In my opinion though a lot of DZOs seem to have the "everything is cool and no big deal" attitude till the shit hits the fan.

My gear is insured, I don't know why a DZO wouldn't do the same.

That's what the "rental fee" should be for. By my calculations, I've spent $1125 in rental fees since I started skydiving in July. I haven't had to cut away so far, and I hope to make many more jumps before I do. Now you watch, on my next jump my canopy will explode or something and I'll need one...

Most of the time when they do have cutaways they recover the canopy. But you know, sometimes shit happens and they cant find it.

If they're getting bent out of shape due to a lost canopy, they're probably not charging enough in rental fees. They're running a business, they should be charging enough to cover expenses and grow their business. Having people get injured or killed because they were afraid to chop when they should have is not good for business.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:50 AM
Post #21 of 98 (9879 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to 2nd everything Stratostar said. There's many factors involved in all this and we don't have all the info or both sides of the story. Did you really chop because of line twists? I've had canopies spin up from line twists and had to chop, but never had one flying straight and level that I couldn't kick out. Please explain the malfunction a bit more.

At our DZ we try really hard not to shame people that cut away, even the FJC student that cut away because the slider was noisy.CrazyLaugh I always say "It's your A$$ in the harness. You have to take care of it." But some people can be resistant to learning and developing good judgement. Like Stratostar, I've seen a little bit of everything. Laugh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2012, 9:17 AM
Post #22 of 98 (9807 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I mean doesn't that discourage people from cutting away a bad canopy if they know
>they are going to be guilted about it later?

Cut away if you need to, don't if you don't. You'll get comments both from people who think you shouldn't have cut away, and from people who think you _should_ have cut away on other jumps. Take their advice with a grain of salt.

In terms of the main - help them find it or replace it.


brucet7  (C 38954)

Oct 9, 2012, 11:59 AM
Post #23 of 98 (9722 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump at the same DZ as John and my experience has been the opposite. A couple of times I have not chopped and people have questioned my landing the main. I have not experienced any guilt about a cutaway (well except a little kidding from a couple of 'friends'.)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #24 of 98 (9662 views)
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Re: [brucet7] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you need to cutaway then cutaway! It is your responsibility to help the dzo find the gear. I know of some places that try to charge people for lost mains and others accept it as a loss on rental gear. You really should know what you're responsible for before using renting it.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:43 PM
Post #25 of 98 (9658 views)
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Re: [brucet7] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I jump at the same DZ as John and my experience has been the opposite. A couple of times I have not chopped and people have questioned my landing the main. I have not experienced any guilt about a cutaway (well except a little kidding from a couple of 'friends'.)

With 255 jumps how many chops do you have? How many with a questionable main?


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