Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway?

 

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popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 21, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #76 of 98 (3377 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sadly that is pretty true. But if people stand their ground and don't compromise, eventually a safer sport prevails. I accept that a single person trying to follow the rules is probably like a fart in a thunderstorm though.
Now you know how I was feeling the last couple of years...
UnsureMad


sacex250

Oct 21, 2012, 6:00 PM
Post #77 of 98 (3368 views)
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Re: [FlyingRhenquest] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think this is the case at many DZs. I think there should be a clear written policy posted where everyone that rents gear can see it. I fail to see why a business owner would leave something so potentially expensive in a gray area. In my opinion though a lot of DZOs seem to have the "everything is cool and no big deal" attitude till the shit hits the fan.

My gear is insured, I don't know why a DZO wouldn't do the same.

That's what the "rental fee" should be for. By my calculations, I've spent $1125 in rental fees since I started skydiving in July. I haven't had to cut away so far, and I hope to make many more jumps before I do. Now you watch, on my next jump my canopy will explode or something and I'll need one...

Most of the time when they do have cutaways they recover the canopy. But you know, sometimes shit happens and they cant find it.

If they're getting bent out of shape due to a lost canopy, they're probably not charging enough in rental fees. They're running a business, they should be charging enough to cover expenses and grow their business. Having people get injured or killed because they were afraid to chop when they should have is not good for business.

Exactly. The DZO is responsible for normal, anticipated use of the rig; it's legally considered the "cost of doing business" even if it's in the waiver that the renter is responsible for loss or damage. The DZO would lose the case in small claims court, so make him go through the trouble of suing if he's being that big of a knob about it.

On the other hand, when a jumper who just cutaway lands and starts looking for high-fives while he's jumping up and down with glee because he just had a cutaway then he isn't going to get a lot of sympathy from the DZO while the canopy flies away. It's probably a good idea to show some immediate concern for recovering the canopy and minimizing the DZO's liability.


Greell  (B License)

Oct 21, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #78 of 98 (3357 views)
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re: [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen plenty of people renting gear have to chop at my DZ. Never once has anyone been upset about it. Everything I've ever heard was...if it's unsafe, and you don't think you can fly it or land it, chop it. Sure, there is always a chance a DZ is going to lose and have to replace a main...but aren't there other inherent risks in this sport?

material can be replaced. You can't.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 21, 2012, 7:01 PM
Post #79 of 98 (3353 views)
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Re: [sacex250] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Exactly. The DZO is responsible for normal, anticipated use of the rig; it's legally considered the "cost of doing business" even if it's in the waiver that the renter is responsible for loss or damage. The DZO would lose the case in small claims court, so make him go through the trouble of suing if he's being that big of a knob about it.

You must be very popular at your DZ?? Wink However, I like to think that "Skydivers" are better than that! When one of us is struggling, the rest of us help!

I've been around this sport for probly longer than you've been alive. I can walk onto any DZ in the world, and I'm always welcomed with open arms!!!! This is a community we're talking about. You lose someone's gear, you take responsibility and Man-Up.

These (DZO in this case) are our friends and brothers in sport. Respect and friendship are the only requirement for membership into this community. Cool


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Oct 21, 2012, 7:02 PM)


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Apr 8, 2014, 2:26 PM
Post #80 of 98 (2452 views)
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Re: [brucet7] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

brucet7 wrote:
I jump at the same DZ as John and my experience has been the opposite. A couple of times I have not chopped and people have questioned my landing the main. I have not experienced any guilt about a cutaway (well except a little kidding from a couple of 'friends'.)

When I had maybe 50 jumps, I was flying a sabre 1 170 and packed myself a line over. It was on a hop and pop at 5. I pulled, slam and then I looked up and fuck! I packed it. :( I immediately looked and grabbed handles. Then I stopped and looked at my altimeter. I was at 4500' and not spinning, just a slow lazy turn. I remembered seeing some video that basically said its most likely a brake line and to try two full flares. I figured fuck it why not so I grabbed my toggles and released them. I had a good canopy by 4000'. I was apparently being yelled at while fixing it by a coach I was jumping with.

This last Sunday, 3 of us went for a sunset cross country. The one person with rental gear packed himself a line over that started spinning. We were at a small 182 dz and about 4 miles out with strong winds to bring us back. I was first out, and once I got situated, I turned around and counted 4 canopies... Or 2 and one spiraling down. I thought oh shit. The person who chopped had 20 jumps and was now circling his chopped main following it. We we're both torn on whether to stay with him or to go back to the dz and show the video and go searching. I stayed kind of in between the dz and him trying to take some useful video. (Can be invaluable on cutaways IMHO) and headed back and barely made it back.

When we landed and the other jumper told the dzo what happened and we watched the video and went searching. The dzo's reaction was "well that's a lost main!" She was very irritated at first. We expressed we didn't really know whether we should have come back or landed with him and she said very matter of factory that if we felt comfortable landing with it then please do.

Long story short, he landed a reserve, hard, in some lady's back yard, next to the main and kept his handles. He used her phone to call the dz with the address. He didn't bring a phone. Apparently I was the only one with a phone! Come on people! Bring a damn phone. If you land off in a field and break an ankle, then what? Anyways I am not a coach or anything fancy but I found out what the mal was and asked why he risked landing with it under an unfamiliar canopy. You should have seen these damn power lines everywhere! It would pucker my ass to try it. He landed a half braked sinking approach and didn't have any flare. His reason was he "couldn't afford to lose the main"
I know it was long winded, but it shows that exact situation where he landed in a very sketchy area, when we was under reserve at 9000'. Just to chase a main. He's ok and walked away, but it was a very dangerous situation escalated by the fear of losing a canopy. (The dz is very clear about licensed jumpers bringing back or paying for gear. Period. Once you check it out it's your responsibility and no-one else's.)
In retrospect I should have tried to tell him to get back and I'd chase it down but we all know how well communicating under canopy works. Or at least maybe land with him. Or make sure he has a phone.

Well that's my 3 cents


hillson  (D 33134)

Apr 8, 2014, 2:31 PM
Post #81 of 98 (2452 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

So...who thought it was a good idea (or talked him into it) to put a unlicensed 20 jump hero on a sunset cross country?


craddock  (D 22750)

Apr 8, 2014, 3:06 PM
Post #82 of 98 (2366 views)
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Re: [hillson] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

hillson wrote:
So...who thought it was a good idea (or talked him into it) to put a unlicensed 20 jump hero on a sunset cross country?

No shit! Although 4 miles out with "strong" winds is hardly a cross country.

That said if a 20 jump wonder sank a reserve into a small back yard that is impressive. Chopping a main above 9k is not however. What kind of mal at that altitude on a student canopy needed to be chopped? I assume at the very least it cost him a freebag/pilot chute.


CaptnCrunch  (B 39625)

Apr 8, 2014, 4:20 PM
Post #83 of 98 (2272 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

can someone point me to the right insurance to insure my gear, reading this makes me thinking that THIS is a good idea
thx


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Apr 8, 2014, 4:33 PM
Post #84 of 98 (2248 views)
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Re: [CaptnCrunch] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

CaptnCrunch wrote:
can someone point me to the right insurance to insure my gear, reading this makes me thinking that THIS is a good idea
thx

Renters' or homeowners' insurance, depending on your living situation. You may or may not need a separate rider for it. Worth a conversation to find out if it's covered and if so, do you have adequate coverage to include your gear. (Think about that also from the perspective of your home being destroyed - when you got your insurance, did it only include your personal belongings, or do you need to up your coverage limits to include the skydiving gear that you now routinely store at home).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Apr 8, 2014, 4:35 PM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 8, 2014, 5:06 PM
Post #85 of 98 (2189 views)
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Re: [craddock] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Chopping a main above 9k is not however.
A 20-jump sort-of-student probably is too concerned about not staying under a bad canopy for too long to really seriously consider the altitude at cutaway, other than to evaluate if it's below his hard deck. And whether the canopy is good enough to play with? Well, at that experience level, the classes are probably something like "good / bad / I-think-it's-a-toggle-fire." If releasing the toggles and trying a controllability check didn't fix it, it should go.

At least that's the order I'd put considering that he's awfully high at -- less important than either cutting away, or stopping the skydive. I'd say that it's something to consider as he becomes more experienced, but tell him that it was an awesome job.

Yeah, it might cost a freebag/pilot chute. TS. They got a live student out of the deal.

Wendy P.


CaptnCrunch  (B 39625)

Apr 8, 2014, 5:08 PM
Post #86 of 98 (2182 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks, i am living in Europe, i thought ther mayb something like a Insurance if i would cut away and loose my main ,-)


beeman  (A 65979)

Apr 9, 2014, 12:10 AM
Post #87 of 98 (1982 views)
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Re: [craddock] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

craddock wrote:
hillson wrote:
So...who thought it was a good idea (or talked him into it) to put a unlicensed 20 jump hero on a sunset cross country?

No shit! Although 4 miles out with "strong" winds is hardly a cross country.

That said if a 20 jump wonder sank a reserve into a small back yard that is impressive. Chopping a main above 9k is not however. What kind of mal at that altitude on a student canopy needed to be chopped? I assume at the very least it cost him a freebag/pilot chute.

A student with a spinning mal on a 4 mile sunset cross country with strong winds. Good on him for not riding the damn thing down, to me.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 9, 2014, 10:28 AM
Post #88 of 98 (1773 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:
I remembered seeing some video that basically said its most likely a brake line and to try two full flares. I figured fuck it why not so I grabbed my toggles and released them. I had a good canopy by 4000'. I was apparently being yelled at while fixing it by a coach I was jumping with.
Funny you got yelled at. We train our FJC students to pump twice for low speed mals before chopping. Wink


MikeBIBOM  (A 67685)

Apr 9, 2014, 11:11 AM
Post #89 of 98 (1730 views)
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Re: [CaptnCrunch] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Homeowners/renters/property insurance should cover it even if you're using it, so long as you're not using it professionally. Ask your insurance company. Mine does. .... and it just occurred to me I might have been able to claim my lost freebag/reserve pilot chute last month...


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Apr 9, 2014, 11:16 AM
Post #90 of 98 (1716 views)
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Re: [MikeBIBOM] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

MikeBIBOM wrote:
Mine does. .... and it just occurred to me I might have been able to claim my lost freebag/reserve pilot chute last month...

That might've been less than your deductible ... probably not worth it.


MikeBIBOM  (A 67685)

Apr 9, 2014, 11:42 AM
Post #91 of 98 (1683 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 9, 2014, 11:47 AM
Post #92 of 98 (1677 views)
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Re: [MikeBIBOM] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

MikeBIBOM wrote:
Homeowners/renters/property insurance should cover it even if you're using it, so long as you're not using it professionally. Ask your insurance company. Mine does. .... and it just occurred to me I might have been able to claim my lost freebag/reserve pilot chute last month...

I asked when I purchased. It covers damage or theft in the home. Limited coverage if it gets taken when it is out somewhere or in the car. No coverage if it gets lost in use. Your insurance may be different.


shotandahalf

Apr 12, 2014, 7:46 AM
Post #93 of 98 (1293 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are a student, why is the DZ putting you out at sunset? You should still have a jumpmaster there to make sure you are doing things safely. If the DZ is just filling a load to make money, losing student equipment is the price of doing business.


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Apr 14, 2014, 9:48 AM
Post #94 of 98 (1060 views)
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Re: [shotandahalf] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

We could have made it back several times over. Yes he shouldnt have chopped it that high. He had a line over according to him. I'm sure the oh shit response happened and he just chopped it without thinking about his altitude. He had just completed his canopy course which consisted of a farther spot, so I guess nobody really thought it was that terrible of an idea. Give you an idea we found him and the main about a mile away. So from 9000' he drifted most of the way back.
Yes he lost the free bag. He only did one jump this weekend apparently because his back was hurt. He came down hard under an old raven 218? Don't quote me on the 218. But coming in in deep brakes and then not doing a plf seemed to have hurt a little. He seemed fine last week but now his back hurts.
After watching the dzo's reaction on video, my wife doesn't even want to jump there anymore. She's a little sensitive to that kind of stuff. I can understand the dzo's frustration at an almost certainly lost main, but hey at least pretend like you care if the student is ok.


GooniesKid

Apr 14, 2014, 10:10 AM
Post #95 of 98 (1046 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good insight...which DZ is this so i can avoid it in the near future?


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Apr 14, 2014, 1:36 PM
Post #96 of 98 (932 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:
I can understand the dzo's frustration at an almost certainly lost main, but hey at least pretend like you care if the student is ok.

Agreed. Unimpressed


mistercwood  (Student)

Apr 14, 2014, 6:20 PM
Post #97 of 98 (864 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a very clear memory of how my instructor approached this topic during my FJC - calmly and casually dismissing any thought we should have about the main. Someone will watch it fall, they'll go out and find it later, do NOT concern yourself with it if you are in the process of saving your life. Ensure you have a working canopy over your head and a safe place to land, this is your number one priority.

With time and experience we can adapt that obviously, but the idea of adding extra steps to my decision tree as a student during a malfunction is ridiculous... Crazy


stayhigh  (F 111)

Apr 16, 2014, 7:15 AM
Post #98 of 98 (720 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the dz's I've been to

1. Would NOT make you pay for it if you do NOT have A license, and still under student status.

2. Will MAKE you pay for the loss item if you have A-license, thus renting the gear.


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