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Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway?

 


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:20 PM
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Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? Can't Post

I'm relatively new to the sport and still renting gear from my home DZ. Recently I had a malfunctioning main and had to cutaway / pull reserve. Since we had a long spot the main landed off the DZ and they had to go look for it and hadn't found it yet by the time I had left. The whole time the pilot and the DZ owner were giving me shit about it, telling me how much it costs and acting like I did something wrong by not flying an unsafe canopy to the ground. Then they tried to act like the long spot was somehow my fault, even though it was a 3-way and the lead guy took forever to begin the count. Not once did they ask if I was okay, just seemed pissed off about the missing main. It wasn't even my pack job, first jump of the day using a rig from the rack.

I may be way off base here but that doesn't sound very safe to me, I mean doesn't that discourage people from cutting away a bad canopy if they know they are going to be guilted about it later?

Do all DZ's do this or do I need to find a new home DZ?


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:24 PM
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Out of general curiosity, who spotted the load and what was the malfunction?

Any reason why you were unable to stay and help with the search?


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:32 PM
Post #3 of 98 (9868 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

How much time did you personally spend looking for the main? If not, why not? And did you make anymore jumps that day?


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #4 of 98 (9852 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Out of general curiosity, who spotted the load and what was the malfunction?

Any reason why you were unable to stay and help with the search?

In reply to:
How much time did you personally spend looking for the main? If not, why not? And did you make anymore jumps that day?

It was only the three of us and the pilot spotted and opened the door when he decided we should jump. Had an out of sequence opening (pretty sure the lines were improperly stowed) and line twists several times over that I couldn't kick out of. It was a sunset load so there wasn't much light left to look for it. I stayed until the sunlight ran out and then everyone went home including me.


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:47 PM
Post #5 of 98 (9841 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It was only the three of us and the pilot spotted and opened the door when he decided we should jump

You are responsible for the spot, not the pilot.

Quote:
Had an out of sequence opening (pretty sure the lines were improperly stowed) and line twists several times over that I couldn't kick out of.

So your container opened before you deployed the PC?

I'm just trying to figure out what the deal was.

A DZO of a small 182 DZ might be a bit upset if a main was chopped at 5k regardless of the reason due to the cost of replacing the main, d-bag, risers and PC (and cutaway handle/reserve handle on occasion). That is a significant amount of money for an operation that is probably razor thin to begin with. However, it isn't worth getting killed over. Is it possible that he was upset due to other factors? Altitude the cutaway happened, for example?


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Oct 8, 2012, 7:50 PM)


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:59 PM
Post #6 of 98 (9818 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a 2500 cutaway, was trained that that was my "decision altitude", kept both handles.

I understand canopies are expensive, but my point is, if they are going to give you crap about it, doesn't that present a potentially unsafe dilemma to the skydiver under a bad or less-than-ideal main? If they are that expensive they should be charging more for gear rental which I would happily pay for the extra peace of mind.


(This post was edited by -SK- on Oct 8, 2012, 8:00 PM)


rtroup  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #7 of 98 (9759 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

You saved your life and you should be proud of yourself. Next time you find yourself with what may be an unsafe parachute to land please don't hesitate to chop cause you are worried about what people on the ground may say.

I don't think its ever appropriate to make someone feel bad, or stupid about chopping even if chopping wasn't necessary.(not saying this was your case) Cause next time they might not chop what definitely is an unsafe canopy to land.

If it were me i would be looking for a new DZ with people who are sympathetic and choose further training over berating.


kojak001  (Student)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:22 PM
Post #8 of 98 (9754 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Help the owner find the main than find a new DZ.


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:24 PM
Post #9 of 98 (9748 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but my point is, if they are going to give you crap about it, doesn't that present a potentially unsafe dilemma to the skydiver under a bad or less-than-ideal main?

Only if your stupid enough to let that kind of thing lead you to bounce because your worried it would cost money or you'll get shit from the DZO & staff.

Quote:
If they are that expensive they should be charging more for gear rental which I would happily pay for the extra peace of mind.

The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

That said: we generally give a pass or two to students because your a student.... However, I would expect you to show up the next day to help look for the lost gear and the day after if that is what it took to find it.....

If you were to blow off that helping to find, I would not be real friendly to you on your return and most likely would hand you a bill for the lost gear.

I have spent a better part of two days crawling on hands and knees to find a lost cutway in a very large corn field, and hell we even had a damn good idea where it went. So put in some effort call the DZ and or head back out there and help look for the shit, you never know others might help you look too.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:29 PM
Post #10 of 98 (9743 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Was it windy ( drifting cut-away ) ? Was it city-ish where it might land in a backyard somewhere, or country-ish where it would likely be found the next day laying in a field close by ?.......If you need to cut-away, cut-away.......


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 8, 2012, 8:54 PM
Post #11 of 98 (9715 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

As a comment, I'm not sure the rules (whatever they are) are very clearly spelled out at some DZ's. It might also depend on whether one is a student or licensed. With skydiving equipment one does have the issue that with mals it can be difficult to apportion blame. All that can lead to conflict when something does go wrong...


Maksimsf  (B 37743)

Oct 8, 2012, 9:08 PM
Post #12 of 98 (9685 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

i chopped rental once at infamous DZ that charge $35 for jump with a rental. didn't get charged a penny and been told to get another rig and get back on the horse. It's a good question. I still jump rental at my home DZ and I will probably ask my DZO next time about that. All I know is no matter what you jump (own or rental) - If you chop - you have to buy a big ass Jack D for the rigger.. Laugh


(This post was edited by Maksimsf on Oct 8, 2012, 9:10 PM)


jshiloh

Oct 8, 2012, 9:19 PM
Post #13 of 98 (9670 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I understand canopies are expensive, but my point is, if they are going to give you crap about it, doesn't that present a potentially unsafe dilemma to the skydiver under a bad or less-than-ideal main?

A few years back at my (former) home DZ there were a couple incidents where someone cutaway & the DZO & other staff heavily criticized the jumpers. Similar to what you describe, no one at the DZ asked if the jumper was ok, or wanted to know the details of what happened. All they were concerned about was the cost/effort at retrieving the mains. Not long after that a newb had a malfunction. She fought a spinning canopy all the way to the ground. She will never walk again. When asked why she didn't cut away, she said she didn't want to get yelled at so chose to try her hardest to correct the problem...next thing she knew, all she saw was dirt.

Safety should NEVER take a back seat to cost, machismo, ego, or anything else. What should have happened is a check to make sure the jumper was ok, then find the main, then do a complete debrief to determine what went wrong & why you did what you did. If the DZO or your instructor felt the cutaway was premature, then he should calmly & properly instruct you on how to deal with the problem in the future. Honestly, if I were you, I'd find a new DZ. This one sounds like it's more concerned with $$$ than it is with safety & proper instruction.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Oct 8, 2012, 9:38 PM
Post #14 of 98 (9647 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

That said: we generally give a pass or two to students because your a student.... However, I would expect you to show up the next day to help look for the lost gear and the day after if that is what it took to find it.....
According to his profile he has an A. Nope! If you rented the main you need to return the main. Your responsibility.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:02 PM
Post #15 of 98 (9601 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of DZ's have their policy about that stuff in the waiver you signed.

Also sounds like a DZ that I would stop spending my money at, not even ask if you were ok? C'mon.


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Oct 8, 2012, 11:06 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 9, 2012, 3:30 AM
Post #16 of 98 (9519 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It was a 2500 cutaway, was trained that that was my "decision altitude", kept both handles.

Then I would probably spend the time needed to find the lost main and then move on to another DZ.

You may end up having to help chip in to purchase a new one.


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 9, 2012, 6:08 AM
Post #17 of 98 (9412 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Me:
Quote:
That said: we generally give a pass or two to students because your a student.... However, I would expect you to show up the next day to help look for the lost gear and the day after if that is what it took to find it.....

Pchapman:
Quote:
It might also depend on whether one is a student or licensed.

Awhite:
Quote:
According to his profile he has an A. Nope! If you rented the main you need to return the main. Your responsibility.

If you read what I wrote, I didn't say the OP was a student, I said we generally give a pass or two to students, because at that time your a student. However I would fully expect the jumper to assist in the search and finding of the lost gear. And I gave an example of the great detailed search in a corn field, you had to really crawl row to row on your knees to find it in late Sept. and it took two days of that to find it.

Also I see many of you saying to hit the road to another dz. That might be good advice or maybe the OP is reading in more then there was to it, we have not heard the DZO's or pilots side of this.

I've trained a shit load of people in 35 yrs and not everyone is sharp, seen a number of problem students who would chop if a flee farted or from simple line twist, while you can't call them a dumbass and find fault with a chop while your safe on the ground. That said, after dealing with, for months or weeks or even just days..... some people ware thin on the dzo & staff because they too dense in the head and so busy asking stupid questions they miss the important info being put forth.

So what might seem as placing a "guilt" vibe, might just be annoyed and fed up dzo and staff who spent way more time dealing with one person who is a problem child who is maybe a step or two away from the "have you ever considered taking up bowling" speech.

Or the dz this person jumps at are just assholes bent out shape over a cutaway.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Oct 9, 2012, 6:12 AM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:03 AM
Post #18 of 98 (9351 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

As a comment, I'm not sure the rules (whatever they are) are very clearly spelled out at some DZ's. It might also depend on whether one is a student or licensed. With skydiving equipment one does have the issue that with mals it can be difficult to apportion blame. All that can lead to conflict when something does go wrong...


I think this is the case at many DZs. I think there should be a clear written policy posted where everyone that rents gear can see it. I fail to see why a business owner would leave something so potentially expensive in a gray area. In my opinion though a lot of DZOs seem to have the "everything is cool and no big deal" attitude till the shit hits the fan.

My gear is insured, I don't know why a DZO wouldn't do the same.


cjsgrlsx3  (C 38727)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:37 AM
Post #19 of 98 (9314 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

My gear is also insured.....why would a DZ send a bill to a jumper for a cutaway? Next thing you know, the packer, manifested, and pilot will also have to chip in to pay for that cutaway main. All of them had a hand in getting said jumper in the air anyway, right? I know that is a little overboard but think about it.


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:39 AM
Post #20 of 98 (9307 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think this is the case at many DZs. I think there should be a clear written policy posted where everyone that rents gear can see it. I fail to see why a business owner would leave something so potentially expensive in a gray area. In my opinion though a lot of DZOs seem to have the "everything is cool and no big deal" attitude till the shit hits the fan.

My gear is insured, I don't know why a DZO wouldn't do the same.

That's what the "rental fee" should be for. By my calculations, I've spent $1125 in rental fees since I started skydiving in July. I haven't had to cut away so far, and I hope to make many more jumps before I do. Now you watch, on my next jump my canopy will explode or something and I'll need one...

Most of the time when they do have cutaways they recover the canopy. But you know, sometimes shit happens and they cant find it.

If they're getting bent out of shape due to a lost canopy, they're probably not charging enough in rental fees. They're running a business, they should be charging enough to cover expenses and grow their business. Having people get injured or killed because they were afraid to chop when they should have is not good for business.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:50 AM
Post #21 of 98 (9289 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to 2nd everything Stratostar said. There's many factors involved in all this and we don't have all the info or both sides of the story. Did you really chop because of line twists? I've had canopies spin up from line twists and had to chop, but never had one flying straight and level that I couldn't kick out. Please explain the malfunction a bit more.

At our DZ we try really hard not to shame people that cut away, even the FJC student that cut away because the slider was noisy.CrazyLaugh I always say "It's your A$$ in the harness. You have to take care of it." But some people can be resistant to learning and developing good judgement. Like Stratostar, I've seen a little bit of everything. Laugh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2012, 9:17 AM
Post #22 of 98 (9217 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I mean doesn't that discourage people from cutting away a bad canopy if they know
>they are going to be guilted about it later?

Cut away if you need to, don't if you don't. You'll get comments both from people who think you shouldn't have cut away, and from people who think you _should_ have cut away on other jumps. Take their advice with a grain of salt.

In terms of the main - help them find it or replace it.


brucet7  (C 38954)

Oct 9, 2012, 11:59 AM
Post #23 of 98 (9132 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump at the same DZ as John and my experience has been the opposite. A couple of times I have not chopped and people have questioned my landing the main. I have not experienced any guilt about a cutaway (well except a little kidding from a couple of 'friends'.)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #24 of 98 (9072 views)
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Re: [brucet7] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you need to cutaway then cutaway! It is your responsibility to help the dzo find the gear. I know of some places that try to charge people for lost mains and others accept it as a loss on rental gear. You really should know what you're responsible for before using renting it.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:43 PM
Post #25 of 98 (9068 views)
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Re: [brucet7] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I jump at the same DZ as John and my experience has been the opposite. A couple of times I have not chopped and people have questioned my landing the main. I have not experienced any guilt about a cutaway (well except a little kidding from a couple of 'friends'.)

With 255 jumps how many chops do you have? How many with a questionable main?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #26 of 98 (3551 views)
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Re: [brucet7] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I jump at the same DZ as John and my experience has been the opposite. A couple of times I have not chopped and people have questioned my landing the main. I have not experienced any guilt about a cutaway (well except a little kidding from a couple of 'friends'.)
Hi Bruce, Yep, I agree. We've been to far too many funerals to care about a chop here and there. But man, I hate looking for stuff off in the woods, don't you?Laugh


iluvtofly  (C License)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:52 PM
Post #27 of 98 (3546 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

The only time I've seen a DZO truly get upset about someone chopping was when they refused to help look for it. Was the malfunction your fault? Doesn't matter. You jumped rental gear, it is your responsibility to help find it. I know you said it got dark soon after. Did you go out any other time to help look for it?

Should they have given you shit for chopping? In this instance it sounds like the chop was warranted so no. I also have known DZO's to playfully give people shit for things they did and it get taken the wrong way. Is it possible you missed a hint of sarcasm? You gotta have a pretty thick skin in this sport for what I've seen. Not saying what they did was right, just saying that it may have been misinterpreted.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:03 PM
Post #28 of 98 (3534 views)
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Re: [iluvtofly] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not a DZO, but, I do give people thier due SHIT for cutaways... "Hey, Dumbshit, you owe beer"! Beer!
Beer!
Beer!
Beer!
Beer!
Beer!
Beer!
Beer!

And, it's always good form to help (EVERYONE and ANYONE) find lost gear. Just pay it forward.


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:03 PM
Post #29 of 98 (3532 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

dude, cutaways happen and so do long spots etc so if someone is giving you shit for it tell them to shove it. the other end of that is expanding your knowledge in general to deal with canopy problems if possible preventing the situation. but who cares youre alive and have learned from it and that experience will come as you gain more and more jumps


tristansdad  (C 39285)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:32 PM
Post #30 of 98 (3502 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Being a 182 DZ they may have not have liked seeing the days profits float away to who knows where.Unsure


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 9, 2012, 4:03 PM
Post #31 of 98 (3460 views)
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Re: [tristansdad] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Part of the cost of doing business. The policy should be clear and in writing and if they are serious about wanting the money for a lost main they should keep a credit card on file to cover the cost.


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 9, 2012, 5:28 PM
Post #32 of 98 (3426 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The normal rules in the sport are this, if you rent it, borrow it, jump it and you break it, lose it, damage it in anyway, it's on you to repair or replace it.

As a comment, I'm not sure the rules (whatever they are) are very clearly spelled out at some DZ's. It might also depend on whether one is a student or licensed. With skydiving equipment one does have the issue that with mals it can be difficult to apportion blame. All that can lead to conflict when something does go wrong...


I think this is the case at many DZs. I think there should be a clear written policy posted where everyone that rents gear can see it. I fail to see why a business owner would leave something so potentially expensive in a gray area. In my opinion though a lot of DZOs seem to have the "everything is cool and no big deal" attitude till the shit hits the fan.

My gear is insured, I don't know why a DZO wouldn't do the same.

Chris, this is spot on. I don't know that I've been to a dz where rental liability is clearly spelt out. The entity renting out the gear also needs to have a system in place to ensure it is fit for purpose (properly packed and maintained).

Side note - an A license jumper should not bitch about the spot. They know enough to check themselves, or cheated to get their A.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 9, 2012, 5:39 PM
Post #33 of 98 (3418 views)
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Re: Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

When my DZO got brand new rental gear (in place of the really old rigs they had), he clarified the policies with signs.

The rental gear is always left unpacked with a bag to put the main canopy into. You rent it; you pack it; you don't get to complain that someone else's pack job gave you a slammer that messed up your neck, or gave you a mal where you are now responsible for replacing the main.

It's a policy that's a bit unusual, but I sure see the DZO's point.


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 9, 2012, 10:21 PM
Post #34 of 98 (3345 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When my DZO got brand new rental gear (in place of the really old rigs they had), he clarified the policies with signs.

The rental gear is always left unpacked with a bag to put the main canopy into. You rent it; you pack it; you don't get to complain that someone else's pack job gave you a slammer that messed up your neck, or gave you a mal where you are now responsible for replacing the main.

It's a policy that's a bit unusual, but I sure see the DZO's point.

I like the idea of having to pack first; you never know what you are getting off the rental rack. In the future I will probably always just unpack / repack before my first jump of the day so I know it is good.

It would be better if DZ's had a rule that if you're renting gear, you have to pay for packing after your last jump of the day. It's human nature do a less thorough job if you know you aren't going to jump it again.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Oct 10, 2012, 12:27 AM
Post #35 of 98 (3327 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It would be better if DZ's had a rule that if you're renting gear, you have to pay for packing after your last jump of the day. It's human nature do a less thorough job if you know you aren't going to jump it again.

I knew one that did exactly that. You got that pack job when you picked it up, pay for it at the end.


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 10, 2012, 2:07 AM
Post #36 of 98 (3304 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It would be better if DZ's had a rule that if you're renting gear, you have to pay for packing after your last jump of the day. It's human nature do a less thorough job if you know you aren't going to jump it again.

I knew one that did exactly that. You got that pack job when you picked it up, pay for it at the end.

I had the shittiest and most violent opening I've ever had on a rental 170. I had line twists that I thought I would have to chop on that jump. All subsequent jumps on that gear were fine. IF I ever jump rental gear in the future, it will be repacked before I jump it.


rastapara  (Student)

Oct 10, 2012, 4:08 AM
Post #37 of 98 (3274 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

The DZO/CI of the DZ I've always jumped had a chapter in the first jump course called mistake I & mistake II

Mistake I

You think you have a mal but you dont, and you chop...

That is a sucky day for the DZO. You might lose your handles, we have to find the main and freebag (or worst case - its lost), and some tourist might call an ambulance because of the cutaway main... not good publicity

Then DZo has to use two hours of his time to repack that stuff.

But

Mistake II

You do have a problem but you dont chop for sake of the DZO not having to do all that work...

Your under a spinning main and hit the ground hard... Dzo has to call an ambulance, or worst case lifeflight... the paramedics cuts the mainlift webbing to aid you in your critical condition. DZO has to call your family, and then get someone to get your car and other stuff from the DZ to the hospital or your house. The following day a bunch of journalist call the DZO, and he has to explain to them what happend and maybe even why you didn't chop like you where trained, spending hours on end on the phone.

Then a half year later, your employer and his smartass layer will send the DZO a letter telling him to pay something like a million or so because your now disabled and he didnt train you correctly...

All in all you see why the DZO will prefer mistake I.

OTH. What the DZO did do if someone chopped because "they kept pulling their toggles and the slider wouldnt go UP" (yes there has been a chop because of that Laugh) is have a conversation about their future in this sport.

Chopping can be expansive. Where I used to jump - with the right wind your cutaway main can be blown out to sea... well good luck finding the main then...

If you're a Dzo and rent out gear, you probably know the risks involved (better then the people you rent the gear to). If you dont want people losing the main sabotage the cutaway Tongue, or better yet charge more for the rental to cover cost.... The risk of losing gear in a chop is all in the game of running a DZ.

Helping to find gear that you chopped is the least you can do... also buy a case of beer for the chop and a bottle of the riggers favorite for the save... (at my DZ that would have been the DZO Wink)

My 2 cents.


(This post was edited by rastapara on Oct 10, 2012, 4:20 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 10, 2012, 8:00 PM
Post #38 of 98 (3118 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... doesn't that present a potentially unsafe dilemma to the skydiver under a bad or less-than-ideal main?

No, No, NO and HELL NO!


Iago  (D License)

Oct 10, 2012, 9:02 PM
Post #39 of 98 (3090 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, let's put it this way.

We drill malfunction training and cutaways into students because we don't like cleaning up the mess. Plus, every young jumper we lose is a serious hit to the beer fridge because we can usually get about 6 or 8 cases out of them before they wise up.

But seriously, if you were uncomfortable with the canopy and you were at the hard deck you made the right decision. Second guessing yourself will only put you in a worse situation next time where a 2500' chop becomes a 1700 or 1500 foot chop and you have a reserve out at 1000'.

Can't speak to the DZ response as I wasn't there.

As far as the main goes you owe some time stomping around the woods looking for it. You should be able to get a rough idea of the area based on ground accounts. It's been my experience that people don't go looking far enough out for lost canopies. After it hits the tree line (visually) it will still be several hundred feet off the ground and if it's windy it can go a looong way.

If you're at a small airport with ultalight pilots, these guys are just itching for an excuse to fly low and slow. They make good canopy spotters.

After that, I think I'd start shopping for a new DZ.



Just one question- Did you pull your silver or wait for the RSL to pull it for you?


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 10, 2012, 9:43 PM
Post #40 of 98 (3077 views)
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Re: [rastapara] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All in all you see why the DZO will prefer mistake I.
I know that is probably true, but based on their reaction to it (as well as to a prior chop) it would seem like they prefer mistake II.

Don't get me wrong I love the DZ and the staff is overall a great group of people, but I don't like the situation I feel I have been put in. I feel like I have been taught, whether they intended to or not, that I better not chop a bad main.

Most likely I will just wait until I can afford my own gear before jumping again, there or anywhere else.

In reply to:
Just one question- Did you pull your silver or wait for the RSL to pull it for you?
Silver of course...


Squeak  (E 1313)

Oct 10, 2012, 10:01 PM
Post #41 of 98 (3071 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
... doesn't that present a potentially unsafe dilemma to the skydiver under a bad or less-than-ideal main?

No, No, NO and HELL NO!
for some jumpers yes it will create that dilemma. NO DZ should be doing anything that might cause someone to second guess their life saving procedures.


TriGirl  (B License)

Oct 11, 2012, 6:24 AM
Post #42 of 98 (3006 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't get me wrong I love the DZ and the staff is overall a great group of people, but I don't like the situation I feel I have been put in. I feel like I have been taught, whether they intended to or not, that I better not chop a bad main.

So, go back to the DZ and talk to someone about it. Tell the DZO you want to sit with an instructor (or the DZO) to go over 1) whether they really are upset with you, 2) if so, why, 3) if not, explain why you took their comments the way you did. Also, explain that perhaps you made the mistake of not offering to help look for the main (or however that played out), and will be willing to help out if they need it the next time some gear needs retrieving. Finally, ask about some extra instruction for whatever they feel is lacking in your skills (spotting, emergency procedures -- whatever it is).

Maybe by admitting to the things you could have done differently during the whole situation (not the saving-your-own-life part, but any other parts), they'll be more likely to accept that everyone is very fortunate it all turned out to be nothing worse than a learning opportunity.

ETA: BTW, sometimes folks on the DZ get really worried when a young jumper gets into trouble, and it manifests though irritation. On my home DZ, I told the S&TA that he yelled at me once when he thought I was going to land on a car. He said, "I did not! I never yell." We figured out that yes, he did, and it was only because he was worried I could have been hurt. Smile


(This post was edited by TriGirl on Oct 11, 2012, 6:26 AM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 11, 2012, 6:51 AM
Post #43 of 98 (2986 views)
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Re: [TriGirl] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

ETA: BTW, sometimes folks on the DZ get really worried when a young jumper gets into trouble, and it manifests though irritation. On my home DZ, I told the S&TA that he yelled at me once when he thought I was going to land on a car. He said, "I did not! I never yell." We figured out that yes, he did, and it was only because he was worried I could have been hurt. Smile

^^^^ This^^^^^

As I read your posts, I can't help but to think YOU are misunderstanding the DZO's response. The solution is to have a private conversation with those who are "upset" with you. Make it a positive conversation and I'll bet the results will also be positive. Smile


curmudgeon

Oct 11, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #44 of 98 (2948 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me see if I understand the situation....you're upset because you might be expected to pay for a main canopy that you lost....and because you might have to pay for it, this could lead to a bad decision to not cutaway because of the the expense....so the solution is to buy your own gear, which you certainly will have to pay to replace, if it's ever lost.

You just keep thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at


rastapara  (Student)

Oct 11, 2012, 9:49 AM
Post #45 of 98 (2918 views)
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Re: [curmudgeon] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You just keep thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at

And you just keep to posting on DZ.com, thats what you're good at.Tongue

I dont think he lost the canopy... he knows where he left it, at 2500ft somewhere near the DZ but on a long spot.Laugh

I mean come on, the S&TA who observe on the ground could've kept a closer eye on the cutaway main... maybe they should pay for part of the damage...Crazy

And the DZO put cutaway systems on his rental rigs, just to jack with students renting gear Crazy And he also rented a malfunctioning canopy, so he didnt get the main canopy ride as advertised...Crazy

I dont believe in the "you lost it by cuting away - you pay" idea, unless its pre-determent in the rental agreement. You dont rent the main and the reserve and the rig as separate items, you rent a parachute system that can malfunction...

I've heard this story about a guy landing in the middle of a huge cornfield, taking of his gear and leaving it there to walk back to the DZ. No way to find that gear back! Crazy I believe they pretty much chewed him a new one (left crying so I heard) - and then didnt even make him pay... (I would've made him pay in that case).

If you rent out gear, its a risk you need to cover, either in an agreement (wich inherently would make some people hesitate to chop when they have to - or even worse, people become instant heroes and try to catch the cutaway main mid air under their reserve) or just charge more to cover the risk that you as a business or club are taking. (also the more expensive the rental stuff the more people are motivated to get their own gear).

And where did the OP say he is to cheap to buy his own gear/ or unwilling to take the financial risk of maybe losing his own gear?


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Oct 11, 2012, 10:11 AM
Post #46 of 98 (2909 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

What I didn't read once in this entire thread was that it's just plain common sense to follow your chopped main (and freebag if you can see it) down and land as close as safely possible to it . It's not cool to just fly back to the main landing area and let others be responsible for chasing it down.

Chuck, D-12501


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Oct 11, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #47 of 98 (2903 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
it's just plain common sense to follow your chopped main

Spoken like a person with a D license. An 'A' license or student should be more concerned with landing an unfamiliar canopy in a large open area with a level wing and not chasing crap around the sky.


melanie91  (C License)

Oct 11, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #48 of 98 (2903 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I right in thinking you're encouraging potentially very inexperienced jumpers who have just gone through the trauma of a malfunction, now under a reserve which could fly quite different to their main, to then deliberately land off the dz?! I'm not gonna bother listing the hazards and dangers of this, but surely the priority should be to land safely, not to recover gear....


kojak001  (Student)

Oct 11, 2012, 10:38 AM
Post #49 of 98 (2885 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously, you want someone that stated they are relatively new to the sport to land offsite! Seriously


curmudgeon

Oct 11, 2012, 11:17 AM
Post #50 of 98 (2859 views)
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Re: [rastapara] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah skippy, and you just keep posting inane comments...I realize advocating self responsibility is an unpopular notion (Chuck you heartless, hard ass bastard :p ) but the guy took someone elses property and lost it....and now disavows any responsiblity and bemoans the fact that he had a bad spot...and a bad pack job....who is at fault for that? btw...I expected my Cat A student to be capable of landing off field if events warranted it yesterday....I find it amusing that some seem to believe (more likely 'feel') that it would be tantamount to a death sentence.


kojak001  (Student)

Oct 11, 2012, 11:44 AM
Post #51 of 98 (3316 views)
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Re: [curmudgeon] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course its not tantamount to a death sentence but why make a stressful situation worse for a relatively new jumper by chasing the main offsite. You may not agree with the way Sk- handled the situation but making a blanket statement that he should of followed the main offsite is just silly in my opinion. Try to remember what its like to be a newbie in a stressful situation.


skydivecat  (C License)

Oct 11, 2012, 12:44 PM
Post #52 of 98 (3291 views)
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Re: [kojak001] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

On my home DZ, MOST people that chop still land at the DZ. Some of the experienced/d licenses/instructors will land off with their gear, but most people I have seen (granted, i am still very much a noob) opt to land safely then go searching. Also, I don't know about anywhere else, but if someone chops at least two cars usually take off after the main/freebag of the jumper who had the mal. If jumpers on the ground are heads up about it (and of course willing to help a fellow jumper), as soon as the chop is noticed we try to get people chasing the gear so it doesn't become lost. 9 times out of 10 we are able to be sitting waiting for it as it lands (I know in this case darkness was an issue).

My dz does have a rental agreement signed by all jumpers off of AFF stating that they are responsible for all gear they use in the case of damage or a chop. So anybody from self supervised student status to licensed jumpers that rent/borrows any equipment is responsible for its return. It is different from a lot of places (not that I have been many), but the expectation is at least there in writing.

The issue with the guilting, I agree with previous posters advice to just sit down and ask them about it. If you have never had any other bad experiences with them, sit down, air your feeling, and listen to what they have to say. No reason to burn a bridge over a misunderstanding, and if they really are that dickish, then there is nothing stopping you from walking away and finding a new home dz.


(This post was edited by skydivecat on Oct 11, 2012, 12:50 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 11, 2012, 2:42 PM
Post #53 of 98 (3267 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

This sport has gone to hell in a hand basket. When and where I started jumping, there would have been 4 people headed to get the main as soon as they stood and had a line on where it landed. The jumper that chopped it would have looked till dark and been back the next day if not found.

The DZO left his pants down with an unclear policy. The OP needs to man up and either go find the canopy or pay a reasonable depreciated cost for it.


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 11, 2012, 7:18 PM
Post #54 of 98 (3200 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I understand they've located the canopy. The only reason I didn't come back during the week was because I did not have (and could not get) those days off, otherwise I would have.

What I don't get is why there aren't insurance policies covering the rental rigs; when I rent a car from Enterprise or wherever I can pay a little extra for an insurance policy that they have through an outside company. Why not do the same thing with rental rigs and require jumpers to purchase it or at least require A-licenses and below to purchase it. Gear is covered; inexperienced jumpers remain safe; insurance companies continue to make obscene amounts of money; all is well with the world.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 12, 2012, 5:23 AM
Post #55 of 98 (3128 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

 As someone who has rented gear out for over 25 years, the cost of it is built into the gear rental. If someone chops it and it is lost or damaged then it is covered by the rental they pay.

Of course I would be annoyed about it, but if comes down to it, I would be far more annoyed at having to deal with an accident or fatality because someone didn't chop.

Having said that, I would expect them to help in the search if one is necessary, but if they didn't, I wouldn't be too upset.

The bits that usually get lost are things like ripcords and freebags, although as was pointed out, a quick fli in a microlight usually turns up bits and pieces.....the local kids always know there is a small cash reward if they return any lost gear, and that usually works pretty well.

The DZO/Jumpmaster should always have a pretty good idea of where the spot is, and the windline, allied to people on the ground taking note of where gear disappears from view usually means its not hard to find as long as it doesn't land in thick bush or water.....

Anyone who tries to put a guilt trip on someone for chopping a canopy needs a swift kick in the nuts. People have been killed because they didn't chop a canopy for fear of being bollocked.

Losing gear is one of the risks you take if you rent gear.


Amazon  (D License)

Oct 12, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #56 of 98 (3091 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The DZO/Jumpmaster should always have a pretty good idea of where the spot is, and the windline, allied to people on the ground taking note of where gear disappears from view usually means its not hard to find as long as it doesn't land in thick bush or water.....

This!!!
... I have watched more than a few chops and getting a line on where the canopy is coming down is key. Take note of the any landmarks in the background with some other point in the foreground. Here on the WET side of this state we have some pretty thick gnarly "brush" and I managed to recover several canopies including a student canopy from some of the thickest crap I have ever crawled thru. The blackberry bushes were bad enough but the 6' high stinging nettles as it was getting dark... just made my f@#$ing day .


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Oct 12, 2012, 10:15 AM
Post #57 of 98 (3067 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just my $0.02 -

At my old DZ, the waiver clearly stated that the jumper was responsible for any damage or loss or anything beyond "normal wear and tear."

BUT...
Students were told to chop a bad canopy. Period.
The line went pretty much like "If you pull the handle on the ground, on purpose or accidentely, you owe for the repack. But if you need to chop it, chop it. We don't charge for that. Do not think for even one moment about the cost if you are in the air." And while we could have charged for lost handles, freebags ect, we never did.
We usually had the "usual suspects" watching from the ground and they would all spread out to get bearings on the canopy and freebag. The pilot would go up with a couple extra pairs of eyeballs to spot it if we couldn't find it right away.
It was expected (and made clear) that students were to help locate any lost gear. Some of them thought the low-level airplane ride was really fun too.


rss_v

Oct 19, 2012, 2:55 AM
Post #58 of 98 (2963 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never had a cut away but another relatively new jumper (<50 jumps, afaik) at my DZ has. Apparently he got his pilot chute out but nothing else followed, and after a certain amount of time he went for his reserve. He apparently got a lot of stick for it on the ground, with staff saying he should have "tried harder" to free things up, tilting to get the pliot chute into clean air (if that was the problem). He was a bit annoyed at the reaction he got to it, understandably.

A lot of what we learned in AFF groundschool doesn't apply in practice, or is unofficially unofficial, if you know what I mean. Anyone following the guidelines and rules exactly would quickly make himself unwelcome at the DZ.


devildog  (C 40302)

Oct 19, 2012, 4:37 AM
Post #59 of 98 (2936 views)
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Re: [rss_v] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've never had a cut away but another relatively new jumper (<50 jumps, afaik) at my DZ has. Apparently he got his pilot chute out but nothing else followed, and after a certain amount of time he went for his reserve. He apparently got a lot of stick for it on the ground, with staff saying he should have "tried harder" to free things up, tilting to get the pliot chute into clean air (if that was the problem). He was a bit annoyed at the reaction he got to it, understandably.

A lot of what we learned in AFF groundschool doesn't apply in practice, or is unofficially unofficial, if you know what I mean. Anyone following the guidelines and rules exactly would quickly make himself unwelcome at the DZ.
well, if there's one thing you have with a pilot chute in tow, is lots of time to deal with it /sarcasm.


beeman  (A 65979)

Oct 19, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #60 of 98 (2888 views)
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Re: [devildog] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I've never had a cut away but another relatively new jumper (<50 jumps, afaik) at my DZ has. Apparently he got his pilot chute out but nothing else followed, and after a certain amount of time he went for his reserve. He apparently got a lot of stick for it on the ground, with staff saying he should have "tried harder" to free things up, tilting to get the pliot chute into clean air (if that was the problem). He was a bit annoyed at the reaction he got to it, understandably.

A lot of what we learned in AFF groundschool doesn't apply in practice, or is unofficially unofficial, if you know what I mean. Anyone following the guidelines and rules exactly would quickly make himself unwelcome at the DZ.
well, if there's one thing you have with a pilot chute in tow, is lots of time to deal with it /sarcasm.

definitely. best part about a PCIT.

And while I am a very low time jumper who hasn't had a chop, what in the world FJC rules are you referring to that shouldn't be applied in practice? I'm just curious. My understanding is that everything in the FJC is based on more experience than any one person will have in this sport. As are the emergency procedures.

And what is your alternative to those things? Those rules are drilled into you so you have a plan hopefully without having to waste altitude thinking about what you should do. Are there "fixes" like trying to free the bag manually, sure there are, with a fair amount of added risk in most cases - not the least of which is loss of altitude awareness trying to "fix" a malfunction on the part of a low time jumper. An experienced jumper might feel comfortable and have the skills required to do something like that, but it's a different ballgame with low time.

If it's pilot chute hesitation then sure a look back and rolling side to side IF ALTITUDE PERMITS are the appropriate action but so is going to the reserve by decision altitude. For any jumper.

He should help look for the gear at a minimum. Without a doubt. Share financial burden if that's the DZO's policy. But what's the use not chopping so you won't have to pay or deal with people giving you crap if you make it down alright?


(This post was edited by beeman on Oct 19, 2012, 9:42 AM)


devildog  (C 40302)

Oct 19, 2012, 3:43 PM
Post #61 of 98 (2817 views)
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Re: [beeman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

definitely. best part about a PCIT.

And while I am a very low time jumper who hasn't had a chop, what in the world FJC rules are you referring to that shouldn't be applied in practice? I'm just curious. My understanding is that everything in the FJC is based on more experience than any one person will have in this sport. As are the emergency procedures.

And what is your alternative to those things? Those rules are drilled into you so you have a plan hopefully without having to waste altitude thinking about what you should do. Are there "fixes" like trying to free the bag manually, sure there are, with a fair amount of added risk in most cases - not the least of which is loss of altitude awareness trying to "fix" a malfunction on the part of a low time jumper. An experienced jumper might feel comfortable and have the skills required to do something like that, but it's a different ballgame with low time.

If it's pilot chute hesitation then sure a look back and rolling side to side IF ALTITUDE PERMITS are the appropriate action but so is going to the reserve by decision altitude. For any jumper.

He should help look for the gear at a minimum. Without a doubt. Share financial burden if that's the DZO's policy. But what's the use not chopping so you won't have to pay or deal with people giving you crap if you make it down alright?

http://www.uspa.org/...168/Default.aspx#969

Quote:
Total Malfunction

1. Identification

(a) A total malfunction includes deployment handle problems (unable to locate or extract the main parachute deployment handle), pack closure, and a pilot chute in tow.

(b) If altitude permits, the jumper should make no more than two attempts to solve the problem (or a total of no more than two additional seconds).

2. Procedures:

(a) In the case of no main pilot chute deployment (e.g., missing or stuck handle, ripcord system container lock), deploy the reserve.

(b) hand-deployed pilot chute in tow malfunction procedures (choose one):

(1) For a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction, there are currently two common and acceptable procedures, both of which have pros and cons.

(2) An instructor should be consulted prior to gearing up, and each skydiver should have a pre-determined course of action.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot-chute-in-tow malfunctions is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main-reserve entanglement is slim, and valuable time and altitude could be lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve.Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy during or as a result of the reserve activation, a cutaway might be the best response in some situations.

Bolding mine. I don't see any reason to deviate from one of those two


(This post was edited by devildog on Oct 19, 2012, 3:44 PM)


beeman  (A 65979)

Oct 19, 2012, 6:07 PM
Post #62 of 98 (2779 views)
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Re: [devildog] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

http://www.uspa.org/...168/Default.aspx#969

Quote:
Total Malfunction

1. Identification

(a) A total malfunction includes deployment handle problems (unable to locate or extract the main parachute deployment handle), pack closure, and a pilot chute in tow.

(b) If altitude permits, the jumper should make no more than two attempts to solve the problem (or a total of no more than two additional seconds).

2. Procedures:

(a) In the case of no main pilot chute deployment (e.g., missing or stuck handle, ripcord system container lock), deploy the reserve.

(b) hand-deployed pilot chute in tow malfunction procedures (choose one):

(1) For a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction, there are currently two common and acceptable procedures, both of which have pros and cons.

(2) An instructor should be consulted prior to gearing up, and each skydiver should have a pre-determined course of action.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot-chute-in-tow malfunctions is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main-reserve entanglement is slim, and valuable time and altitude could be lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve.Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy during or as a result of the reserve activation, a cutaway might be the best response in some situations.

Bolding mine. I don't see any reason to deviate from one of those two

+1


(This post was edited by beeman on Oct 19, 2012, 6:08 PM)


hybrid59

Oct 19, 2012, 11:59 PM
Post #63 of 98 (2723 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am new to the sport, but am actually totally shocked by the reaction of the veterans of this forum. I have been a commercial airplane and helicopter pilot for more time than I would like to admit.

So I rent a rig from a said DZO and the packer didn't pack my rig properly, I cut away and am supposed to feel guilty for it. REALLY! I compare that to my said company appointed engineer F*****g up and be expected to to pick up the tab for the multi-milion dollar helicopter.

Somebody please explain the logic behind this reasoning.................

BTW. I have heard the monetary logic from more times than I care to remember.

Seriously this just baffles me.
In reply to:


rss_v

Oct 20, 2012, 2:17 AM
Post #64 of 98 (2702 views)
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Re: [beeman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And while I am a very low time jumper who hasn't had a chop, what in the world FJC rules are you referring to that shouldn't be applied in practice? I'm just curious. My understanding is that everything in the FJC is based on more experience than any one person will have in this sport. As are the emergency procedures.

And what is your alternative to those things? Those rules are drilled into you so you have a plan hopefully without having to waste altitude thinking about what you should do. Are there "fixes" like trying to free the bag manually, sure there are, with a fair amount of added risk in most cases - not the least of which is loss of altitude awareness trying to "fix" a malfunction on the part of a low time jumper. An experienced jumper might feel comfortable and have the skills required to do something like that, but it's a different ballgame with low time.


What I mean is that if you did everything by the book, you'd never fit in with the DZ "machine" as it runs day to day, commercially and socially. No time for formal gear checks, hurry up and get your fucking kit on - someone will eye it over for you in the pen. Want to check the spot? Fuck that, we've got 14 people behind you so hurry up and get out. Wind's picking up a bit, feeling nervous? Don't be a pussy, you're on the manifest so get on the plane.
Decide to cut away? No matter what, you didn't need to.


(This post was edited by rss_v on Oct 20, 2012, 2:21 AM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Oct 20, 2012, 5:55 AM
Post #65 of 98 (2667 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're a student and you have a cutaway you probably won't be held accountable for any missing gear. Once you're a licensed jumper you are responsible for any gear you damage or lose! Doesn't matter if you had a packer pack it. A lot of times newer jumpers cause malfunctions that have nothing to do with how it was packed. Typically because they're not very good at deploying stable, even though you probably think you are.


hybrid59

Oct 20, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #66 of 98 (2625 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright then, assuming the jumper is belly to earth and not turning during deployment. What could he do to induce a malfunction?
In reply to:


Deyan  (D 322)

Oct 20, 2012, 11:14 AM
Post #67 of 98 (2614 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alright then, assuming the jumper is belly to earth and not turning during deployment. What could he do to induce a malfunction?
In reply to:

lazy PC throw to start with


(This post was edited by Deyan on Oct 20, 2012, 11:15 AM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Oct 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #68 of 98 (2606 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alright then, assuming the jumper is belly to earth and not turning during deployment. What could he do to induce a malfunction?
In reply to:

We've had people cut away because they couldn't undo the toggles (they worked fine...), because they stuck their hands in toggles/brake line loops causing knots, not slowing down enough after freefly can cause opening issues, lines catching on camera equipment (often because people look up during deployment), handles getting dislodged during exit or freefall, holding on to the pilot chute for too long causing the bridle to wrap around their arm, spinning up the canopy by turning too fast or stalling it, dropping a shoulder during opening or opening head-low.

These just all off the top off my head. There's probably more ways Wink
And none of the above are the packer's fault.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 20, 2012, 12:08 PM
Post #69 of 98 (2585 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alright then, assuming the jumper is belly to earth and not turning during deployment. What could he do to induce a malfunction?
In reply to:

You are throwing a folded up wad of fabric into a 120mph wind stream, shit happens sometimes. If you can't deal with that you should be jumping.

As for the way the rental system works, you should probably unpack the rig and repack it yourself if you plan to blame the packer for a possible malfunction.


devildog  (C 40302)

Oct 20, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #70 of 98 (2565 views)
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Re: [rss_v] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I mean is that if you did everything by the book, you'd never fit in with the DZ "machine" as it runs day to day, commercially and socially. No time for formal gear checks, hurry up and get your fucking kit on - someone will eye it over for you in the pen. Want to check the spot? Fuck that, we've got 14 people behind you so hurry up and get out. Wind's picking up a bit, feeling nervous? Don't be a pussy, you're on the manifest so get on the plane.
Decide to cut away? No matter what, you didn't need to.

Where are you jumping and might I suggest finding a new dz?


hybrid59

Oct 20, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #71 of 98 (2564 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We've had people cut away because they couldn't undo the toggles (they worked fine...), because they stuck their hands in toggles/brake line loops causing knots, not slowing down enough after freefly can cause opening issues, lines catching on camera equipment (often because people look up during deployment), handles getting dislodged during exit or freefall, holding on to the pilot chute for too long causing the bridle to wrap around their arm, spinning up the canopy by turning too fast or stalling it, dropping a shoulder during opening or opening head-low.

These just all off the top off my head. There's probably more ways Wink
And none of the above are the packer's fault.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that dragon2, I always assumed (apparently incorrectly) that the majority of malfunctions were rigging related. I guess some reasearch on my part is warranted, any related links on the subject would be appreciated.

Thanks for your input too CSpenceFLY, I got suspicious after the 20+ pages of waivers that I signed before the AFF that perhaps there might be a bit of risk involved Wink I do agree though that packing your own rig would remove any question as to who takes responsibilty of the rental rig belongs to.


(This post was edited by hybrid59 on Oct 20, 2012, 5:12 PM)


hybrid59

Oct 20, 2012, 10:49 PM
Post #72 of 98 (2477 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess some reasearch on my part is warranted, any related links on the subject would be appreciated.

Scratch that obviously there is lots of information available on the subject.


rss_v

Oct 21, 2012, 1:36 AM
Post #73 of 98 (2447 views)
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Re: [devildog] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Where are you jumping and might I suggest finding a new dz?

Nah, I accept that that's how things work. In any field, in fact. Whenever you start a new job, for example, perhaps you receive training on the official and proper way to do things, but then when you get into it you see that in reality everything would grind to a halt if people followed the rules.


devildog  (C 40302)

Oct 21, 2012, 4:56 AM
Post #74 of 98 (2431 views)
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Re: [rss_v] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Where are you jumping and might I suggest finding a new dz?

Nah, I accept that that's how things work. In any field, in fact. Whenever you start a new job, for example, perhaps you receive training on the official and proper way to do things, but then when you get into it you see that in reality everything would grind to a halt if people followed the rules.

That's not how things work (in my experience), and running with your analogy, some employers are crap/dangerous and you need to leave. On your list specifically:

"No time for formal gear checks, hurry up and get your fucking kit on - someone will eye it over for you in the pen." What DZ won't let you do / give you grief over a full gear check on your own rig before you put it on? Either your manifesting when you aren't ready (which I can see them being annoyed at if the next load is in 2 mins) or this isn't right.

"Want to check the spot? Fuck that, we've got 14 people behind you so hurry up and get out." Are you taking 10 mins to check the spot? Or are they literally saying if the light turns green you just jump like a lemming? If they are forcing the latter, well, see above. If you are being slow for whatever reason, maybe you should let someone else do the spot until you're comfortable and quick.

"Wind's picking up a bit, feeling nervous? Don't be a pussy, you're on the manifest so get on the plane. " No DZ should ever force / pressure you into jumping for whatever reason. On winds especially, you don't want to be under canopy and wishing you were on the ground. It's not a good feeling.

"Decide to cut away? No matter what, you didn't need to." This can contribute to people fighting with a bad main for the rest of their life. Why do you want to be around a dz that does this? There's a difference between a DZO being perturbed at someone chopping because toggles were stuck, and say, someone chopping over a bunch of broken lines, stepthrough, etc.


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 21, 2012, 5:02 PM
Post #75 of 98 (2337 views)
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Re: [rss_v] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Where are you jumping and might I suggest finding a new dz?

Nah, I accept that that's how things work. In any field, in fact. Whenever you start a new job, for example, perhaps you receive training on the official and proper way to do things, but then when you get into it you see that in reality everything would grind to a halt if people followed the rules.

Sadly that is pretty true. But if people stand their ground and don't compromise, eventually a safer sport prevails. I accept that a single person trying to follow the rules is probably like a fart in a thunderstorm though.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Oct 21, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #76 of 98 (3400 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sadly that is pretty true. But if people stand their ground and don't compromise, eventually a safer sport prevails. I accept that a single person trying to follow the rules is probably like a fart in a thunderstorm though.
Now you know how I was feeling the last couple of years...
UnsureMad


sacex250

Oct 21, 2012, 6:00 PM
Post #77 of 98 (3391 views)
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Re: [FlyingRhenquest] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think this is the case at many DZs. I think there should be a clear written policy posted where everyone that rents gear can see it. I fail to see why a business owner would leave something so potentially expensive in a gray area. In my opinion though a lot of DZOs seem to have the "everything is cool and no big deal" attitude till the shit hits the fan.

My gear is insured, I don't know why a DZO wouldn't do the same.

That's what the "rental fee" should be for. By my calculations, I've spent $1125 in rental fees since I started skydiving in July. I haven't had to cut away so far, and I hope to make many more jumps before I do. Now you watch, on my next jump my canopy will explode or something and I'll need one...

Most of the time when they do have cutaways they recover the canopy. But you know, sometimes shit happens and they cant find it.

If they're getting bent out of shape due to a lost canopy, they're probably not charging enough in rental fees. They're running a business, they should be charging enough to cover expenses and grow their business. Having people get injured or killed because they were afraid to chop when they should have is not good for business.

Exactly. The DZO is responsible for normal, anticipated use of the rig; it's legally considered the "cost of doing business" even if it's in the waiver that the renter is responsible for loss or damage. The DZO would lose the case in small claims court, so make him go through the trouble of suing if he's being that big of a knob about it.

On the other hand, when a jumper who just cutaway lands and starts looking for high-fives while he's jumping up and down with glee because he just had a cutaway then he isn't going to get a lot of sympathy from the DZO while the canopy flies away. It's probably a good idea to show some immediate concern for recovering the canopy and minimizing the DZO's liability.


Greell  (B License)

Oct 21, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #78 of 98 (3380 views)
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re: [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen plenty of people renting gear have to chop at my DZ. Never once has anyone been upset about it. Everything I've ever heard was...if it's unsafe, and you don't think you can fly it or land it, chop it. Sure, there is always a chance a DZ is going to lose and have to replace a main...but aren't there other inherent risks in this sport?

material can be replaced. You can't.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 21, 2012, 7:01 PM
Post #79 of 98 (3376 views)
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Re: [sacex250] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Exactly. The DZO is responsible for normal, anticipated use of the rig; it's legally considered the "cost of doing business" even if it's in the waiver that the renter is responsible for loss or damage. The DZO would lose the case in small claims court, so make him go through the trouble of suing if he's being that big of a knob about it.

You must be very popular at your DZ?? Wink However, I like to think that "Skydivers" are better than that! When one of us is struggling, the rest of us help!

I've been around this sport for probly longer than you've been alive. I can walk onto any DZ in the world, and I'm always welcomed with open arms!!!! This is a community we're talking about. You lose someone's gear, you take responsibility and Man-Up.

These (DZO in this case) are our friends and brothers in sport. Respect and friendship are the only requirement for membership into this community. Cool


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Oct 21, 2012, 7:02 PM)


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Apr 8, 2014, 2:26 PM
Post #80 of 98 (2475 views)
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Re: [brucet7] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

brucet7 wrote:
I jump at the same DZ as John and my experience has been the opposite. A couple of times I have not chopped and people have questioned my landing the main. I have not experienced any guilt about a cutaway (well except a little kidding from a couple of 'friends'.)

When I had maybe 50 jumps, I was flying a sabre 1 170 and packed myself a line over. It was on a hop and pop at 5. I pulled, slam and then I looked up and fuck! I packed it. :( I immediately looked and grabbed handles. Then I stopped and looked at my altimeter. I was at 4500' and not spinning, just a slow lazy turn. I remembered seeing some video that basically said its most likely a brake line and to try two full flares. I figured fuck it why not so I grabbed my toggles and released them. I had a good canopy by 4000'. I was apparently being yelled at while fixing it by a coach I was jumping with.

This last Sunday, 3 of us went for a sunset cross country. The one person with rental gear packed himself a line over that started spinning. We were at a small 182 dz and about 4 miles out with strong winds to bring us back. I was first out, and once I got situated, I turned around and counted 4 canopies... Or 2 and one spiraling down. I thought oh shit. The person who chopped had 20 jumps and was now circling his chopped main following it. We we're both torn on whether to stay with him or to go back to the dz and show the video and go searching. I stayed kind of in between the dz and him trying to take some useful video. (Can be invaluable on cutaways IMHO) and headed back and barely made it back.

When we landed and the other jumper told the dzo what happened and we watched the video and went searching. The dzo's reaction was "well that's a lost main!" She was very irritated at first. We expressed we didn't really know whether we should have come back or landed with him and she said very matter of factory that if we felt comfortable landing with it then please do.

Long story short, he landed a reserve, hard, in some lady's back yard, next to the main and kept his handles. He used her phone to call the dz with the address. He didn't bring a phone. Apparently I was the only one with a phone! Come on people! Bring a damn phone. If you land off in a field and break an ankle, then what? Anyways I am not a coach or anything fancy but I found out what the mal was and asked why he risked landing with it under an unfamiliar canopy. You should have seen these damn power lines everywhere! It would pucker my ass to try it. He landed a half braked sinking approach and didn't have any flare. His reason was he "couldn't afford to lose the main"
I know it was long winded, but it shows that exact situation where he landed in a very sketchy area, when we was under reserve at 9000'. Just to chase a main. He's ok and walked away, but it was a very dangerous situation escalated by the fear of losing a canopy. (The dz is very clear about licensed jumpers bringing back or paying for gear. Period. Once you check it out it's your responsibility and no-one else's.)
In retrospect I should have tried to tell him to get back and I'd chase it down but we all know how well communicating under canopy works. Or at least maybe land with him. Or make sure he has a phone.

Well that's my 3 cents


hillson  (D 33134)

Apr 8, 2014, 2:31 PM
Post #81 of 98 (2475 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

So...who thought it was a good idea (or talked him into it) to put a unlicensed 20 jump hero on a sunset cross country?


craddock  (D 22750)

Apr 8, 2014, 3:06 PM
Post #82 of 98 (2389 views)
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Re: [hillson] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

hillson wrote:
So...who thought it was a good idea (or talked him into it) to put a unlicensed 20 jump hero on a sunset cross country?

No shit! Although 4 miles out with "strong" winds is hardly a cross country.

That said if a 20 jump wonder sank a reserve into a small back yard that is impressive. Chopping a main above 9k is not however. What kind of mal at that altitude on a student canopy needed to be chopped? I assume at the very least it cost him a freebag/pilot chute.


CaptnCrunch  (B 39625)

Apr 8, 2014, 4:20 PM
Post #83 of 98 (2295 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

can someone point me to the right insurance to insure my gear, reading this makes me thinking that THIS is a good idea
thx


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Apr 8, 2014, 4:33 PM
Post #84 of 98 (2271 views)
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Re: [CaptnCrunch] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

CaptnCrunch wrote:
can someone point me to the right insurance to insure my gear, reading this makes me thinking that THIS is a good idea
thx

Renters' or homeowners' insurance, depending on your living situation. You may or may not need a separate rider for it. Worth a conversation to find out if it's covered and if so, do you have adequate coverage to include your gear. (Think about that also from the perspective of your home being destroyed - when you got your insurance, did it only include your personal belongings, or do you need to up your coverage limits to include the skydiving gear that you now routinely store at home).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Apr 8, 2014, 4:35 PM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 8, 2014, 5:06 PM
Post #85 of 98 (2212 views)
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Re: [craddock] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Chopping a main above 9k is not however.
A 20-jump sort-of-student probably is too concerned about not staying under a bad canopy for too long to really seriously consider the altitude at cutaway, other than to evaluate if it's below his hard deck. And whether the canopy is good enough to play with? Well, at that experience level, the classes are probably something like "good / bad / I-think-it's-a-toggle-fire." If releasing the toggles and trying a controllability check didn't fix it, it should go.

At least that's the order I'd put considering that he's awfully high at -- less important than either cutting away, or stopping the skydive. I'd say that it's something to consider as he becomes more experienced, but tell him that it was an awesome job.

Yeah, it might cost a freebag/pilot chute. TS. They got a live student out of the deal.

Wendy P.


CaptnCrunch  (B 39625)

Apr 8, 2014, 5:08 PM
Post #86 of 98 (2205 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks, i am living in Europe, i thought ther mayb something like a Insurance if i would cut away and loose my main ,-)


beeman  (A 65979)

Apr 9, 2014, 12:10 AM
Post #87 of 98 (2005 views)
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Re: [craddock] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

craddock wrote:
hillson wrote:
So...who thought it was a good idea (or talked him into it) to put a unlicensed 20 jump hero on a sunset cross country?

No shit! Although 4 miles out with "strong" winds is hardly a cross country.

That said if a 20 jump wonder sank a reserve into a small back yard that is impressive. Chopping a main above 9k is not however. What kind of mal at that altitude on a student canopy needed to be chopped? I assume at the very least it cost him a freebag/pilot chute.

A student with a spinning mal on a 4 mile sunset cross country with strong winds. Good on him for not riding the damn thing down, to me.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 9, 2014, 10:28 AM
Post #88 of 98 (1796 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:
I remembered seeing some video that basically said its most likely a brake line and to try two full flares. I figured fuck it why not so I grabbed my toggles and released them. I had a good canopy by 4000'. I was apparently being yelled at while fixing it by a coach I was jumping with.
Funny you got yelled at. We train our FJC students to pump twice for low speed mals before chopping. Wink


MikeBIBOM  (A 67685)

Apr 9, 2014, 11:11 AM
Post #89 of 98 (1753 views)
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Re: [CaptnCrunch] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Homeowners/renters/property insurance should cover it even if you're using it, so long as you're not using it professionally. Ask your insurance company. Mine does. .... and it just occurred to me I might have been able to claim my lost freebag/reserve pilot chute last month...


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Apr 9, 2014, 11:16 AM
Post #90 of 98 (1739 views)
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Re: [MikeBIBOM] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

MikeBIBOM wrote:
Mine does. .... and it just occurred to me I might have been able to claim my lost freebag/reserve pilot chute last month...

That might've been less than your deductible ... probably not worth it.


MikeBIBOM  (A 67685)

Apr 9, 2014, 11:42 AM
Post #91 of 98 (1706 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 9, 2014, 11:47 AM
Post #92 of 98 (1700 views)
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Re: [MikeBIBOM] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

MikeBIBOM wrote:
Homeowners/renters/property insurance should cover it even if you're using it, so long as you're not using it professionally. Ask your insurance company. Mine does. .... and it just occurred to me I might have been able to claim my lost freebag/reserve pilot chute last month...

I asked when I purchased. It covers damage or theft in the home. Limited coverage if it gets taken when it is out somewhere or in the car. No coverage if it gets lost in use. Your insurance may be different.


shotandahalf

Apr 12, 2014, 7:46 AM
Post #93 of 98 (1316 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are a student, why is the DZ putting you out at sunset? You should still have a jumpmaster there to make sure you are doing things safely. If the DZ is just filling a load to make money, losing student equipment is the price of doing business.


Alexg3265  (B 38823)

Apr 14, 2014, 9:48 AM
Post #94 of 98 (1083 views)
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Re: [shotandahalf] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

We could have made it back several times over. Yes he shouldnt have chopped it that high. He had a line over according to him. I'm sure the oh shit response happened and he just chopped it without thinking about his altitude. He had just completed his canopy course which consisted of a farther spot, so I guess nobody really thought it was that terrible of an idea. Give you an idea we found him and the main about a mile away. So from 9000' he drifted most of the way back.
Yes he lost the free bag. He only did one jump this weekend apparently because his back was hurt. He came down hard under an old raven 218? Don't quote me on the 218. But coming in in deep brakes and then not doing a plf seemed to have hurt a little. He seemed fine last week but now his back hurts.
After watching the dzo's reaction on video, my wife doesn't even want to jump there anymore. She's a little sensitive to that kind of stuff. I can understand the dzo's frustration at an almost certainly lost main, but hey at least pretend like you care if the student is ok.


GooniesKid

Apr 14, 2014, 10:10 AM
Post #95 of 98 (1069 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good insight...which DZ is this so i can avoid it in the near future?


Doug_Davis  (B 40488)

Apr 14, 2014, 1:36 PM
Post #96 of 98 (955 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:
I can understand the dzo's frustration at an almost certainly lost main, but hey at least pretend like you care if the student is ok.

Agreed. Unimpressed


mistercwood  (Student)

Apr 14, 2014, 6:20 PM
Post #97 of 98 (887 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a very clear memory of how my instructor approached this topic during my FJC - calmly and casually dismissing any thought we should have about the main. Someone will watch it fall, they'll go out and find it later, do NOT concern yourself with it if you are in the process of saving your life. Ensure you have a working canopy over your head and a safe place to land, this is your number one priority.

With time and experience we can adapt that obviously, but the idea of adding extra steps to my decision tree as a student during a malfunction is ridiculous... Crazy


stayhigh  (F 111)

Apr 16, 2014, 7:15 AM
Post #98 of 98 (743 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the dz's I've been to

1. Would NOT make you pay for it if you do NOT have A license, and still under student status.

2. Will MAKE you pay for the loss item if you have A-license, thus renting the gear.



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