Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA"

 

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kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 22, 2012, 1:18 PM
Post #151 of 195 (2345 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

Matt,

You can't reach any conclusions about my opinion of the I/E program in AFF from what I wrote about wingsuiting. They are quite different, AS I ALREADY WROTE.

Stop making up strawman arguments.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Oct 22, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #152 of 195 (2327 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
Sadly I believe the vote will pass just because people will do it for "safety" without thinking of the big picture here.

This is the only statement you've posted that I would disagree with.
I don't think there's any way the skydiving community will vote for a system where some random dude out west and 6 of his unnamed buddies get to decide who can and can't teach wingsuiting across the entire country.
Personally, I can't believe it's even a fucking option.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 22, 2012, 6:40 PM
Post #153 of 195 (2306 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't believe that's what some people think this is.
Oh the millions of dollars and worldwide fame that handful of special magical wingsuit instructors.
Those lucky soles will inherit the skies.
Or millions.
Or minions.
Or something I'm just not understanding....
Unimpressed


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 22, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #154 of 195 (2302 views)
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Re: [normiss] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can't believe that's what some people think this is.
Oh the millions of dollars and worldwide fame that handful of special magical wingsuit instructors.
Those lucky soles will inherit the skies.
Or millions.
Or minions.
Or something I'm just not understanding....
Unimpressed

I think it is because some people aren't looking at this Objectively.

Matt


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 22, 2012, 6:53 PM
Post #155 of 195 (2300 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

NSEMN8R

I hope I am wrong, and you are right on this one.


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 22, 2012, 6:53 PM
Post #156 of 195 (2299 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Sadly I believe the vote will pass just because people will do it for "safety" without thinking of the big picture here.

This is the only statement you've posted that I would disagree with.
I don't think there's any way the skydiving community will vote for a system where some random dude out west and 6 of his unnamed buddies get to decide who can and can't teach wingsuiting across the entire country.
Personally, I can't believe it's even a fucking option.

From personal experience in other areas of life. The majority sit and bitch about 'the problem', a few people get off their butts and do 'something'. The doers get criticised for their actions, but the arm chair quarterbacks do nothing.

I sense this is the case with DSE and his proposal. It's pointless questioning motives, you'll never know what they are. If you don't like the option, then put time and effort into a counter proposal.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 22, 2012, 9:19 PM
Post #157 of 195 (2272 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Sadly I believe the vote will pass just because people will do it for "safety" without thinking of the big picture here.

This is the only statement you've posted that I would disagree with.
I don't think there's any way the skydiving community will vote for a system where some random dude out west and 6 of his unnamed buddies get to decide who can and can't teach wingsuiting across the entire country.
Personally, I can't believe it's even a fucking option.

From personal experience in other areas of life. The majority sit and bitch about 'the problem', a few people get off their butts and do 'something'. The doers get criticised for their actions, but the arm chair quarterbacks do nothing.

.

Actually Simon (Wicked Wingsuits) has put his own money toward a solution that is actually targeted at the real problem.


Shredex

Oct 22, 2012, 9:32 PM
Post #158 of 195 (2270 views)
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Re:Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

If there is, it shouldn't be for those with 200+ jumps.

If they do anything, they should have a standardized wingsuit training ONLY if you want to start early (Around 100 jumps)

...maybe.

Boobies are nice, too.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Oct 23, 2012, 4:37 AM
Post #159 of 195 (2256 views)
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Re: [Shredex] Re:Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Boobies are nice...

Finally, a statement in this thread that we can all agree on...


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 23, 2012, 8:33 AM
Post #160 of 195 (2245 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Actually Simon (Wicked Wingsuits) has put his own money toward a solution that is actually targeted at the real problem.


Truthfully, someone else put their time and money towards the same solution 2 years ago. You criticized it.
It all comes down to politics, not what the right thing to do may be.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 23, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #161 of 195 (2225 views)
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Re: [DSE] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Actually Simon (Wicked Wingsuits) has put his own money toward a solution that is actually targeted at the real problem.


Truthfully, someone else put their time and money towards the same solution 2 years ago. You criticized it.
.

I find it hard to believe that I criticized someone giving away free professionally designed safety placards. Do you have a link?


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 23, 2012, 12:56 PM
Post #162 of 195 (2216 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes me wonder what they use in Portugal.
Unimpressed


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 23, 2012, 6:07 PM
Post #163 of 195 (2177 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I find it hard to believe that I criticized someone giving away free professionally designed safety placards. Do you have a link?


I personally doubt he does


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 23, 2012, 6:50 PM
Post #164 of 195 (2165 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I find it hard to believe that I criticized someone giving away free professionally designed safety placards. Do you have a link?


I personally doubt he does

I dunno, about two years ago he contacted me to proof read some stuff, and then he was attacked, here, inn the WS Community, and in the BOD meeting.

Matt


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Oct 24, 2012, 5:19 AM
Post #165 of 195 (2124 views)
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Re: [normiss] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
...system where some random dude out west and 6 of his unnamed buddies get to decide who can and can't teach wingsuiting across the entire country.


In reply to:
I can't believe that's what some people think this is.
...

How is that not EXACTLY what this is?

I understand you think it's for our own good and we need these guys to save us from ourselves and save wingsuiting from the feds and the evil insurance companies and all that, but that doesn't change what the proposal says.


scottd818  (C 41314)

Oct 24, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #166 of 195 (2095 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

i think there should be a program for wingsuits that is similar to AFF. I know there will be extra costs for it but how do you put a price on safety and your life. Just my .02 cents


nylonbag

Oct 24, 2012, 9:51 AM
Post #167 of 195 (2087 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i think there should be a program for wingsuits that is similar to AFF. I know there will be extra costs for it but how do you put a price on safety and your life. Just my .02 cents

Would you say the same for jumping a camera? What about a first cmera jump course taught by a USPA camera instructor. Youd have to take the class or no camera for you.. Cameras have had lots of incidents, even GoPros and Contours. Cameras are new equipment that changes EPs.

Food for thought.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 24, 2012, 11:02 AM
Post #168 of 195 (2073 views)
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Re: [nylonbag] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Would you say the same for jumping a camera? What about a first cmera jump course taught by a USPA camera instructor............ .

.........Food for thought.

With well thought out Standardized Curriculum, absolutely yes! In fact, I'd pay to sit thru your class, especially if it's taught by someone "trained" and qualified to teach the course. Whys everyone so dead set against learning. And please don't respond with the old, scare tactics, bureaucrats are bad, conspiracy theory argument. If I want to hear that BS, Ill just turn on my TV anytime between now and the Election.

Cool


Shredex

Oct 24, 2012, 11:17 AM
Post #169 of 195 (2064 views)
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Re:Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

So, uhhh...No one said anything about my previous comment. That means that no one disagrees! Can I have my wingsuit now?? SlySlySly


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Oct 24, 2012, 12:30 PM
Post #170 of 195 (2036 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Would you say the same for jumping a camera? What about a first cmera jump course taught by a USPA camera instructor............ .

.........Food for thought.

With well thought out Standardized Curriculum, absolutely yes! In fact, I'd pay to sit thru your class, especially if it's taught by someone "trained" and qualified to teach the course. Whys everyone so dead set against learning. And please don't respond with the old, scare tactics, bureaucrats are bad, conspiracy theory argument. If I want to hear that BS, Ill just turn on my TV anytime between now and the Election.

Cool

I don't think anyone here is against learning. I've taken lots of canopy courses and paid for freefly coaching countless times. I've also sat through and assisted with several ffc's just to see what other people are teaching. I took a base fjc when I started base jumping and I went to a crew camp when I thought I wanted to get into crw. If someone whose reputation and experience level I respect is putting on a course, I have no problem paying for it.

I think the idea of having a structured course is a great idea. I think trying to create a monopoly by having the USPA make one particular course mandatory and excluding all the other existing courses is a dick move.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 24, 2012, 8:04 PM
Post #171 of 195 (1987 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i think there should be a program for wingsuits that is similar to AFF. I know there will be extra costs for it but how do you put a price on safety and your life. Just my .02 cents

If someone, ANYONE, had presented some evidence that this proposal would fix the apparent issues, then I'd agree.

However, that hasn't been done. We simply don't know that safety will improve, but we do know that costs will increase.

Following your logic, we should have special USPA rated intructors for ALL disciplines beyond basic 2-way belly flying: camera, head-down, sit, swooping, CRW, bigways... since all of these have produced fatalities.


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 24, 2012, 10:32 PM
Post #172 of 195 (1975 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
i think there should be a program for wingsuits that is similar to AFF. I know there will be extra costs for it but how do you put a price on safety and your life. Just my .02 cents

If someone, ANYONE, had presented some evidence that this proposal would fix the apparent issues, then I'd agree.

However, that hasn't been done. We simply don't know that safety will improve, but we do know that costs will increase.

Following your logic, we should have special USPA rated intructors for ALL disciplines beyond basic 2-way belly flying: camera, head-down, sit, swooping, CRW, bigways... since all of these have produced fatalities.

For someone who is involved in education, your lack of faith in education in raising standards surprises me. I think there is a shocking lack of knowledge in modern skydiving and see this as being correlated to safety at some level. Would you mind expanding on why you don't see formal education helping improve the standard of jumpers?

Australia has a Crest system in place, Wingsuit crest is coming soon I believe, but there is an RW crest, FF crest, CRW crest etc. Without the crest, you are restricted in what you can do. There is no formal 'instructor' for the crest, however the requirements for obtaining the crest are clearly laid out.

For example you can't do more than a 10 way RW jump, without your RW Crest. This involves 3 successful 8 ways, where you dock 5th or later, and are signed off by the CI.

At face value it is a workable system, without instructor overhead.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 25, 2012, 4:56 AM
Post #173 of 195 (1952 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
i think there should be a program for wingsuits that is similar to AFF. I know there will be extra costs for it but how do you put a price on safety and your life. Just my .02 cents

If someone, ANYONE, had presented some evidence that this proposal would fix the apparent issues, then I'd agree.

However, that hasn't been done. We simply don't know that safety will improve, but we do know that costs will increase.

Following your logic, we should have special USPA rated intructors for ALL disciplines beyond basic 2-way belly flying: camera, head-down, sit, swooping, CRW, bigways... since all of these have produced fatalities.

For someone who is involved in education, your lack of faith in education in raising standards surprises me.

Current educational practice, enforced by all accreditation agencies, requires EVIDENCE BASED continuous improvement. Not guesswork.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 25, 2012, 6:19 AM
Post #174 of 195 (1939 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Current educational practice, enforced by all accreditation agencies, requires EVIDENCE BASED continuous improvement. Not guesswork.

Sounds like you should be on the "committee" to develop this course. As I stated way up thread (but not necessarily aimed at you)....
"Stop bitching and get involved"! Smile

Edited to add;
Current educational practice, enforced by all accreditation agencies, requires Research based continuous improvement. FIFY


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Oct 25, 2012, 6:26 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 25, 2012, 9:10 AM
Post #175 of 195 (1924 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
i think there should be a program for wingsuits that is similar to AFF. I know there will be extra costs for it but how do you put a price on safety and your life. Just my .02 cents

If someone, ANYONE, had presented some evidence that this proposal would fix the apparent issues, then I'd agree.

However, that hasn't been done. We simply don't know that safety will improve, but we do know that costs will increase.

Following your logic, we should have special USPA rated intructors for ALL disciplines beyond basic 2-way belly flying: camera, head-down, sit, swooping, CRW, bigways... since all of these have produced fatalities.


There was no standardized flight training for pilots in the USA, and no evidence standardized flight training would create safer pilots/fewer incidents either. But the Army Air Service felt the need to standardize flight training due to budgets and damaged/destroyed aircraft and oddly enough...there were fewer incidents once standard training began at Ft. Sill.

Spend some time on ERIC and read the hundreds of papers on standardized training systems in the civilian and military world, and the value of standards are overwhelmingly evident.
In our sport, we cannot have standards without a body maintaining those standards. USPA is that body. With (now 5) separate groups providing wingsuit "ratings" and only one of them having any USPA background, it's no wonder we're in a messy spot. Choose the person that will give you your "rating" because he's easier/cheaper/more of a cool dude" and you have the letters. It's like getting your PhD over the internet. Anyone can do it. Of all people, it would seem an educated person would comprehend the value.

You demand evidence in a vacuum because it's an easy argument. It's a weak argument to look backwards and say "doing this wouldn't have prevented that." However, empirical data from several sports proves the value of standardized training and behavior, administered by a communal body (Snowboarding is perhaps the best recent example). Snowboarders were banned from mountains for years until a governing body was created, best practices standardized, promised, and adhered to. Now, it's grown to be one of the biggest winter sports. Historically, standards have caused activities to significantly grow.

No other discipline can exit the aircraft at least a minute after tandems and open up 3-4 miles away from the exit point, up to 4 minutes after the exit. No other discipline can zoom past a tandem at 100 mph. No other discipline uses different deployment techniques, has instability potential, nor tail strike potential like wingsuiting does.

No other discipline is being eyeballed by FAA or insurance companies, either.
Please provide historical evidence that any insurance company has ever written a letter regarding any skydiving discipline and potential pushback on insuring aircraft.


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