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Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA"

 

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EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 16, 2012, 8:30 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

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I've been around guns for 50 years and never shot myself, never 'got complacent' ~ Strong training & vigilance pays off.

Good, now never let yourself unconciously allow yourself to be "that guy" It CAN happen.

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If it saves a life is it worth it?

YES (IF)

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I strongly urge those on the wire to ask questions of the right people...get facts don't go on rumor or unreasonable assertions.

I ask the same.

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EFS ~ If you seriously believe DSE stands to gain $$ from this I urge you to ask him directly. I think you'll be surprised by the real answer.

I may just do that.

BTW my previous response was prior to my PM response.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 16, 2012, 8:48 PM
Post #77 of 195 (2572 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:

....... Do we have incidents of low time WSers dying? The recent incidents I remember all entail very very experienced wingsuiters.

very very experienced wingsuiters.... who may not have been trained properly? Herein lyes the problem.

Following that logic, every very very experienced skydiver who hooks in under a perfectly good canopy may not have been trained properly, yet they were trained by USPA rated instructors.

In reply to:


And this is a problem that we can fix.

It can only be fixed if it has been properly diagnosed in the first place, and so far there is NO PROOF AT ALL that improper training is the correct diagnosis.


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 16, 2012, 9:05 PM
Post #78 of 195 (2565 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

It can only be fixed if it has been properly diagnosed in the first place, and so far there is NO PROOF AT ALL that improper training is the correct diagnosis.

In reply to:

Yeah we can let the patient die while we discuss what constitutes proof of correct diagnosis, or we can plug the hole like we did successfully on the last few that came through and lived.
Wink


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 16, 2012, 9:28 PM
Post #79 of 195 (2562 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It can only be fixed if it has been properly diagnosed in the first place, and so far there is NO PROOF AT ALL that improper training is the correct diagnosis.

In reply to:

Yeah we can let the patient die while we discuss what constitutes proof of correct diagnosis, or we can plug the hole like we did successfully on the last few that came through and lived.
Wink

Nice to see you admit that all you have is a guess, and no proof whatsoever of a correct diagnosis. Yet you want to impose a whole new bureaucracy on us and set a precedent for USPA on account of a GUESS!

So why aren't you campaigning for USPA Canopy-I and -I/E ratings? Canopy flight kills lots more skydivers than wingsuiting and you have exactly the same amount of proof that poor training is cause of the problem.


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 16, 2012, 9:33 PM
Post #80 of 195 (2560 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It can only be fixed if it has been properly diagnosed in the first place, and so far there is NO PROOF AT ALL that improper training is the correct diagnosis.

In reply to:

Yeah we can let the patient die while we discuss what constitutes proof of correct diagnosis, or we can plug the hole like we did successfully on the last few that came through and lived.
Wink

Nice to see you admit that all you have is a guess, and no proof whatsoever of a correct diagnosis. Yet you want to impose a whole new bureaucracy on us and set a precedent for USPA on account of a GUESS!

So why aren't you campaigning for USPA Canopy-I and -I/E ratings? Canopy flight kills lots more skydivers than wingsuiting and you have exactly the same amount of proof that poor training is cause of the problem.


And it's nice you agree it can only be 'FIXED if'...So you admit that there IS a problem that needs fixing, step one complete.
Cool

I offer a fix....you show me indisputable proof it won't work and then we'll discuss the benefit of doing nothing.

I think we have a pretty good handle on what the doin' nothing thing accomplishes fixing problems.

Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Oct 16, 2012, 9:39 PM)


SStewart  (D 10405)

Oct 16, 2012, 11:06 PM
Post #81 of 195 (2554 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

No

We should demand that USPA concentrate on real issues that affect all skydivers like airport access.

How we have come to make such a big deal out of a such a non-issue is beyond me.


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 16, 2012, 11:20 PM
Post #82 of 195 (2553 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No

We should demand that USPA concentrate on real issues that affect all skydivers like airport access.

How we have come to make such a big deal out of a such a non-issue is beyond me.



Are my expectations too high...can't we address more than one issue at a time?


Halfpastniner  (D 30747)

Oct 17, 2012, 4:21 AM
Post #83 of 195 (2546 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It can only be fixed if it has been properly diagnosed in the first place, and so far there is NO PROOF AT ALL that improper training is the correct diagnosis.

In reply to:

Yeah we can let the patient die while we discuss what constitutes proof of correct diagnosis, or we can plug the hole like we did successfully on the last few that came through and lived.
Wink

Nice to see you admit that all you have is a guess, and no proof whatsoever of a correct diagnosis. Yet you want to impose a whole new bureaucracy on us and set a precedent for USPA on account of a GUESS!

So why aren't you campaigning for USPA Canopy-I and -I/E ratings? Canopy flight kills lots more skydivers than wingsuiting and you have exactly the same amount of proof that poor training is cause of the problem.

It seems to me that USPA realized they missed the boat on the canopy thing. They have started now to go back and put some things into place (like a required canopy course for a B license ect.). I think they just really want to get out ahead of this before it gets equally out of control as the carnage under canopy.

To me, that is a good thing. Like Twardo said, I think the USPA can handle a few different issues/programs at once. Nobody at HQ is saying "drop everything, we need to focus on wingsuits". Im sure canopy and IE issues are on the menu as well.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 17, 2012, 5:56 AM
Post #84 of 195 (2539 views)
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Re: [Halfpastniner] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
It can only be fixed if it has been properly diagnosed in the first place, and so far there is NO PROOF AT ALL that improper training is the correct diagnosis.

In reply to:

Yeah we can let the patient die while we discuss what constitutes proof of correct diagnosis, or we can plug the hole like we did successfully on the last few that came through and lived.
Wink

Nice to see you admit that all you have is a guess, and no proof whatsoever of a correct diagnosis. Yet you want to impose a whole new bureaucracy on us and set a precedent for USPA on account of a GUESS!

So why aren't you campaigning for USPA Canopy-I and -I/E ratings? Canopy flight kills lots more skydivers than wingsuiting and you have exactly the same amount of proof that poor training is cause of the problem.

It seems to me that USPA realized they missed the boat on the canopy thing. They have started now to go back and put some things into place (like a required canopy course for a B license ect.). I think they just really want to get out ahead of this before it gets equally out of control as the carnage under canopy.

To me, that is a good thing. Like Twardo said, I think the USPA can handle a few different issues/programs at once. Nobody at HQ is saying "drop everything, we need to focus on wingsuits". Im sure canopy and IE issues are on the menu as well.

Go read the fatality reports and report back to us on which issue is the more urgently in need of a fix - canopy flight or wingsuits.


Next show us some evidence that adding USPA ratings will solve either problem.

Then show us this "menu" of which you speak.


jimjumper  (D 11137)

Oct 17, 2012, 5:59 AM
Post #85 of 195 (2538 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

   It appears that the model thatís intended to be used for the WS rating program is the AFF program. The original AFF proposal resulted in an instructional program ruled by 4 individuals that held onto their power with an iron grip for over 15 years! The ďIĒ course had a pass/fail rate of 50/50 and this was accepted for the sake of ďqualityĒ and ďstandardizationĒ. For a long time pre-courses were not only discouraged they werenít even offered. Course training was done by senior AFF Iís or by a few designated Evaluators. It was only when DZís and DZO's where unable to get certified Instructors did the Board step in and allow mere mortals to get Course Director ratings and prospective Iís didnít have to guess about the standards of the course they were about to take. The current plan for Wingsuits calls for only 7 IEís so itís going to take a long time to make WSIís a common DZ staff member available to the rank and file.

For this system to work it's going to require a lot of traveling by either the evaluators or the evaluated. Of course, if youíre the one at the top, itís understood that the person wanting the instruction pays. I see a lot of money in course costs, travel, and per diem, not to mention aircraft slots and classrooms. Somehow I donít think that these new IEís and Iís are going to hand out ratings for free. Also if I were looking for a job right now Iíd be checking at USPA to see if all the Admin support jobs in the Safety and Training Department have been filled. I see a massive bureaucracy being paid for by both the jumper wanting to wingsuit and the general membership.

I also see Wingsuiting as a discipline being severely restricted by this system in itís creativity in the name of ďstandardizationĒ much like progressive thinking was (and is) discouraged in AFF teaching techniques. I keep reading on here about current WSIís that believe they wonít have to make any changes to what they are already doing but if WS becomes a rating, if they are teaching at a USPA GM dropzone, they will have to be rated by USPA and essentially teach the syllabus provided. If youíre a current WSI make sure you read the proposal and be prepared to attend a rating course and to teach the proposed syllabus.

All this being said, I donít think I can support the current proposal of a full rating system. The USPA survey question is supposed to be in the November issue which I havenít seen yet but Iíll be interested in seeing how the question is phrased. I support more basic WS instruction but a rating system is excessive. Hopefully this wonít be handled the way the canopy instruction problem was handled and just passed off to some S+TA to designate someone they think knows what they are teaching. I am seeing that with more resistance to the rating idea being posted on-line that some people have ideas that would work and I would hope that everyone keeps an open mind when it comes to solving this problem with the least amount of intrusion and cost toi the average jumper.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 17, 2012, 6:02 AM
Post #86 of 195 (2537 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
No

We should demand that USPA concentrate on real issues that affect all skydivers like airport access.

How we have come to make such a big deal out of a such a non-issue is beyond me.

Sure. We can determine what the real issues are rather than guessing. THEN we devise real fixes for the actual problems rather than arrogantly assuming without any proof that we know what to do.

If the issue is complacency among experienced skydivers (which is the way the evidence points), then adding new USPA ratings won't fix it.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 17, 2012, 6:27 AM
Post #87 of 195 (2534 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the issue is complacency among experienced skydivers (which is the way the evidence points), then adding new USPA ratings won't fix it.

+1 Thank you, exactly the point I was trying to make earlier.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 17, 2012, 6:30 AM
Post #88 of 195 (2531 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

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How we have come to make such a big deal out of a such a non-issue is beyond me.

Connect the dots. Seriously it isn't hard to figure out who started the issue and the few that stand to benefit. It has been mentioned several times.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 17, 2012, 6:47 AM
Post #89 of 195 (2525 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

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How many pre-BSR deaths were there of low-time skydivers wearing wingsuits? At least 5 we can prove, nearly double that in related incidents.
How many post BSR deaths of low-time skydivers wearing wingsuits?
Zero.

This is DSE's quote from his Online opinion Poll sticky. Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this prove the BSR worked? and if so where the hell is there the need for WS-I & I/E? I fully supported the 200 jump BSR, and I could support adding to it as far as seeking instruciton from an experienced WSer but this proposed regime is unfounded.

Supporters need to open their eyes and mind instead of blindly supporting bullshit.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 17, 2012, 8:11 AM
Post #90 of 195 (2510 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

>Fighting complacency is a verh hard thing.

Agreed!

> I do not think a WS-I with standardized FFC taught will stop jumpers with hundreds of
> wingsuit jumps from complacency.

I think it will help. Very few people forget to pull because it has been drilled into them hard since jump 1 - and they practice it with two eyes on them for their first few jumps several times, then with one pair of eyes on them for their next many jumps. If they screw it up they get talked to - or fail the jump. If they screw it up enough they are told to leave and not come back.

Does that mean that no one will ever forget to pull? Of course not; there is no 100% prevention against complacency. But having that kind of training with that kind of emphasis on the importance of the action helps a lot IMO.

Likewise, there is a very big difference (IMO) between reading "launch with your wings collapsed" and doing it several times while someone is watching you, ready to tell you what you did wrong if you don't do it. Even after hundreds of jumps that muscle memory from WS jump #1 is going to make a difference, I think.

And again, tail strikes are only one of the many aspects that any WS course/checkout program will cover. There's far more to wingsuiting than the first few seconds out the door.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 17, 2012, 9:07 AM
Post #91 of 195 (2501 views)
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Re: [billvon] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

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there is a very big difference (IMO) between reading "launch with your wings collapsed" and doing it several times while someone is watching you, ready to tell you what you did wrong if you don't do it.

I agree and I would support adding a standardized course backing it by mandation through a BSR. I just can not support DSE and a handful of others being the only ones that can teach it. There are PLENTY of wingsuiters out there capable of teaching me the basics of wingsuiting safely. If a buddy that has hundreds of wingsuit jumps is willing to teach me for free then he should be allowed to. We are not talking about an ISP program here. We are talking about jumpers with at the minimum 200 jumps.

Can you see a problem with a standardized course being mandated for new coming wingsuiters, but it being allowed by any experienced wingsuiter with at least a coach rating and say 200 WS jumps? This standard would include at least a couple coach jumps. I mean we let coaches with 50 jumps teach the non-method specific portion of the FJC to people that have NEVER skydived before!!!

I am all for education and safety Bill. I have been teaching the FJC's at my DZ for two years. I am an instructror in other professions as well which helps. My DZO recently said I did a better job at teaching it then him, which felt like an awesome compliment. Although I can't speak for him Gary Peek would probably approve of my instruction too. I just think this regime of 7 is wholey unnecessary. There will be a significant cost to the USPA, and individual members, all benifiting a few monetarily.

Schools like Flock-U and DSE's etc would still be doing their thing, and if qualified I would be able to seek my instruction from a mentor that is qualified. I had the benift of learning a little from a freeflier by the name of Sean Hutto. He has never charged me a dime. Same with Kiwi Hamilton at couch freaks, all I had to do was pay for the 5 jump tickets for him. That is the way it should be.

I think there is a middle ground here that would accomplish the same thing, and I wish some of these supporters would just think about that. Many are just going to see the ballot and check yes because the figure "safety" when they haven't done their homework or considered the consequences of instituting this.

Would current winguiters be grandfathered to this "rating" or will they have to go pay DSE? This is just wrong, not even needed, and not the only way to accomplish the goals.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 17, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #92 of 195 (2493 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

>Can you see a problem with a standardized course being mandated for new coming
>wingsuiters, but it being allowed by any experienced wingsuiter with at least a coach
>rating and say 200 WS jumps?

That could work. Or maybe an instructor rating and 200 WS jumps. I think you'd want, at minimum, some indication that the guy knew how to do a first flight course. Maybe a quick checkout by someone who already has the rating; a "show me a first flight course" and you get signed off to teach them.


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 17, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #93 of 195 (2454 views)
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Re: [billvon] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually Bill, I'd argue that a one off course increases rather than decreases complacency. It makes it much easier to relax knowing that you were taught 'everything important'.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 17, 2012, 5:29 PM
Post #94 of 195 (2450 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'd argue that a one off course increases rather than decreases complacency.

Can you explain what you mean by a "one off" course?

Edited to add: Do you even know the courses that Flock-U and DSE teach currently?


(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Oct 17, 2012, 5:42 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Oct 17, 2012, 8:54 PM
Post #95 of 195 (2418 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

>Actually Bill, I'd argue that a one off course increases rather than decreases
>complacency.

?? I took a one-off AFF JCC. It definitely did not "increase complacency." If anything it taught me how little I knew about teaching skydiving. Same for my seaplane rating, divemaster rating (PADI not USPA) wreck certification etc.

>It makes it much easier to relax knowing that you were taught 'everything important'.

??????? No course in skydiving teaches "everything important." How the heck did you get that idea?


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 17, 2012, 9:03 PM
Post #96 of 195 (2414 views)
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Re: [billvon] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
>Actually Bill, I'd argue that a one off course increases rather than decreases
>complacency.

?? I took a one-off AFF JCC. It definitely did not "increase complacency." If anything it taught me how little I knew about teaching skydiving. Same for my seaplane rating, divemaster rating (PADI not USPA) wreck certification etc.

>It makes it much easier to relax knowing that you were taught 'everything important'.

??????? No course in skydiving teaches "everything important." How the heck did you get that idea?

+1,000,000


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 18, 2012, 12:17 AM
Post #97 of 195 (2400 views)
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Re: [billvon] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Actually Bill, I'd argue that a one off course increases rather than decreases
>complacency.

?? I took a one-off AFF JCC. It definitely did not "increase complacency." If anything it taught me how little I knew about teaching skydiving. Same for my seaplane rating, divemaster rating (PADI not USPA) wreck certification etc.

>It makes it much easier to relax knowing that you were taught 'everything important'.

??????? No course in skydiving teaches "everything important." How the heck did you get that idea?

What I'm getting at is continuing education and assessment are more effective than a course for people beyond the 'baby steps'. People tend to forget what they are taught over time, and develop bad habits. Human nature is to assume that because I was taught xyz 10 years ago I know what I'm doing.

In your case you've committed to continuing education. Compare that to someone with x number of jumps, whose never had tuition beyond the bare minimum for their A license. There are enough of them around, and they 'know everything'.


Ron

Oct 18, 2012, 4:54 AM
Post #98 of 195 (2390 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
This parallels his (and many other people's) belief that you should not need a wingsuit instructor rating to instruct licensed skydivers in wingsuiting.


In reply to:

Because UNLIKE all other areas of aviation, licensed Skydivers are just 'born' with skills & knowledge allowing for transition to more complex equipment & procedures...without needing to concern themselves about experienced instruction or performance standards evaluation. Wink

So you'd like a PRO-I, PRO I/E and PRO-course director rating from USPA to train people to get PRO ratings - no one is born knowing how to get a PRO rating.

Ditto for freeflying - no-one is born knowing how to freefly.

Ditto for CRW - no one is born knowing how to do CRW.

Ditto for skysurfing - no-one is born knowing how to jump a board.

Ditto for pond surfing - no-one is born knowing how to do that.

What a lot of new USPA ratings you want.

Nope they sure aren't born with the skills...so what they do is boldly go into the unknown and hope they learn through osmosis before they get hurt or killed, or they pay someone with both the experience and the ability to teach it effectively, which is a safer and smarter way to go IMHO.

Of course some of them get hurt or killed anyway...hummm, bygosh maybe your right!

If there was only a way we could make sure the paid teachers are qualified to be teaching, and that they are all covering the same material the same basic way...what a wonderful world it WOULD be!

Cool




and like I said before...as soon as any or all of those various disciplines creates a situation across the board due to incidents...which if not addressed satisfactorily could in effect entirely change the way a drop-zone can do business, if at all

~ then yeah, I'm pretty sure some evaluation of skills and secondary training parameters might be put in place.

Uh the Pro rating was created because a bunch of yahoos were hurting themselves and others at demos.

So why not create a wingsuit rating exactly like the demo? You did notice that we didn't create an instructor rating to teach demos... Right?


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 18, 2012, 8:16 AM
Post #99 of 195 (2376 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

Nigel99 I know your reply was focused to Bill, however that is what I was saying earlier up thread. No FJC or FFC is going to fight complacency. However, I don't see a lot of up jumpers being onboard with some kind of continuing education and evalutation of theirs skills. Hey lets go tell guys like Nick, Ian, BG, and such that we think they could get complacent so they have to now go do X. Um yeah that won't work, rightfully so. The ONLY way to battle complacency is through CONSTANT SELF-VIGILANCE. Don't take my experience or word for it, just look at all the study and research that has been conducted by the military, the secret service, law enforcement, etc.

Your "one off" course comment is what is being implemented. No one is really arguing about what should be taught in a FFC. People pretty much agree on that. But do we need a whole new I & I/E program to teach what has already been being taught? There is NO evidence to suggest that we do.

I agree with Ron. We don't have I & I/E for Pro, a point I brought up early in the thread. Hell I would change the verbage there too. I would call it a Pro endorsement. We could have a Wingsuit endorsement system as well. An experienced wingsuit should be allowed to give you a FFC and a couple coach jumps and sign you off.

DSE's own quote I posted early up thread confirms the BSR change worked. We do not need to make this more complicated and expensive than it needs to be. There is zero need for a new regime of I/E's just for wingsuits.

USPA should set a standardized FFC sure, I can buy that, but to think a Wingsuiter with a couple hundred winguit jumps who is already an instructor in other disciplines can't teach me is ridiculous.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 18, 2012, 8:24 AM
Post #100 of 195 (2372 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" [In reply to] Can't Post

>What I'm getting at is continuing education and assessment are more effective than
>a course for people beyond the 'baby steps'.

I agree that continuing education is very important. But so is getting the first big chunk of absolutely-need-to-know information. You can't start out in any new endeavor without knowing the basics.


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