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Preparing to camera fly

 

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shibu  (C 42074)

Oct 16, 2012, 9:50 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:


Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better. I have seen more and more older skydivers on here (and ESPECIALLY off the web) choosing the first path.

My guess is you're the kid in class caught texting a friend while the teacher was explaining an assignment....

Damn. He read her like a book. Laugh


(This post was edited by shibu on Oct 16, 2012, 10:54 AM)


tmccann  (A 61009)

Oct 16, 2012, 11:11 AM
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

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It is no different than taking pictures on a vacation, for most people.

Great analogy.

I used to be a pretty decent photographer (nothing professional, but college photojournalist), and took my camera everywhere, including vacation. I soon learned that I remembered my vacations much better (and enjoyed them more) when I put the camera away and paid more attention to what I was doing than what I could see through my viewfinder.

I'm in no hurry to strap a camera to my head.

T


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 17, 2012, 4:17 AM
Post #53 of 102 (960 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

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"lindenwood" you were asking for a good ole classic davelepka internet ass kicking and you got one.

Laugh

My internet flamesuit can withstand any internet ass kicking... Wink

But, if we are saying that jumping a camera at 50 jumps (as is apparently done in Canada?) is as dangerous as jumping while drunk or with zero training, then I guess I'll just never develop this holy fear of cameras that some have.


shibu  (C 42074)

Oct 17, 2012, 4:22 AM
Post #54 of 102 (958 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
"lindenwood" you were asking for a good ole classic davelepka internet ass kicking and you got one.

Laugh
.... I guess I'll just never develop this holy fear of cameras that some have.

badass


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 17, 2012, 8:20 AM
Post #55 of 102 (931 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Periodically experienced jumpers hear "you should be nicer to newbies who don't get it! They're not being dicks, they just don't know yet." And so we try and post pages of recommendations, incident lists of what happens if you ignore recommendations, suggestions for moving forward. And then we get this:

>But, if we are saying that jumping a camera at 50 jumps (as is apparently done
>in Canada?) is as dangerous as jumping while drunk or with zero training, then I guess
>I'll just never develop this holy fear of cameras that some have.

Which makes us think "why bother?"

So Lindenwood, the next time you complain about the jumpers who don't "accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks" - save your crocodile tears. Because you're the problem - you are that wannabe hotshot punk that everyone is talking about, who is immune to advice. You're the reason that sometimes experienced jumpers say "you'll kill yourself, you idiot, now get off my DZ and kill yourself somewhere else."

Us "old timers?" We'll save the advice for people who will listen to it, and those people will make up the next generation of camera flyers, instructors and record holders.


5.samadhi

Oct 17, 2012, 8:42 AM
Post #56 of 102 (923 views)
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Re: [billvon] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

see now you've gone and made Billvon dole out an internet ass whooping and thats just sad that you had to take it THAT far.

Laugh


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 17, 2012, 11:40 AM
Post #57 of 102 (884 views)
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Re: [billvon] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, could you point me to those incidents where a camera played a major.role in.causing some problem? I have seen anecdotes here and there but I would actually be interested in reading about them if they are clearly rwlated to the camera (entanglement, or a jumper was seen messing with his camera for so long that he missed the spot, etc).

I believe they can be a distraction, and never doubted that. But I am still having a very hard time seeing how having a camera is as dangerous as being intoxicated or having zero training.



An FWIW, Id bet a hundred bucks I have spent more time reading here, and asked more questions at the DZ, than 99% of new jumpers. I am in no rush to downsize, get into hook turns, or any of the extreme aspects of skydiving. I am in no rush to start freeflying, do big group skydives, compete, freefall with toys and objects, or even camera fly. I appreciate the risks of skydiving itself, and don't want to add another major focus and obvious consequences to them. But, the reason why the apparent risks of jumping with a camera are seemingly lost is because statements like "jumping with a camera has been linked as one potential factor in a series of events that may or may not have contributed to the accident" don't carry anywhere near the same weight as "another jumper femured last week from trying the one exact thing we told him not to do."


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 17, 2012, 11:58 AM
Post #58 of 102 (879 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

>Bill, could you point me to those incidents where a camera played a major.role
>in.causing some problem?

Top of the camera forum.

>But I am still having a very hard time seeing how having a camera is as
>dangerous as being intoxicated or having zero training.

It's not, and no one claimed it is. And if you want to play that game, play it somewhere else.


5.samadhi

Oct 17, 2012, 8:42 PM
Post #59 of 102 (828 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But I am still having a very hard time seeing how having a camera is as dangerous as being intoxicated or having zero training.
hahahahahaha

hahaha

what? ShockedSly


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 17, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #60 of 102 (824 views)
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Re: [billvon] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[reply="trafficdiver"]
So if the young crowd wants to skip this AFF Malarkey and go right for the freeflying, the older folks should just sit back and say, good luck?
[reply="bill"]
In such a case, would you advise people to just make the best of it, and put your efforts into learning how to skydive safely after a few beers? Rather than trying to alienate them into doing what you want?
Both of these statements are essentially saying "if you think it's okay to jump with a camera early because people have done it successfully, then you would think it is okay to [jump after a few beers / jump without training]." At least, the implication was clearly that my logic was as flawed as advocating people jump in such conditions.

Thanks for pointing me to those incidents. I see how cameras have been linked to a lot of annoyances, but most of those could have easily been prevented with a little coaching to instill a greater appreciation that the camera is second to the skydive.





Btw, it was said earlier that one can't just choose to ignore true advice just because of a sour delivery. I never said one should. However, "Argumentation 101" would affirm that the only way to reach an opposing audience is to first show that you genuinely understand or appreciate their position. Otherwise, the subconscious tendency is to assign minimal value to anything you say. Anyone who is able past the bitterness and condescension and absorb a cogent argument is an exception, not the rule.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:34 AM
Post #61 of 102 (808 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Btw, it was said earlier that one can't just choose to ignore true advice just because of a sour delivery. I never said one should. However, "Argumentation 101" would affirm that the only way to reach an opposing audience is to first show that you genuinely understand or appreciate their position. Otherwise, the subconscious tendency is to assign minimal value to anything you say. Anyone who is able past the bitterness and condescension and absorb a cogent argument is an exception, not the rule.

Well then Einstein, you've finally said something that makes sense.

Hard lesson, if you want to skydive and live, you need to be an exception to a bunch of 'rules' we have out in the general population these days. Do you really think that this is a sport for 'average' people? Do you see success in skydiving and living on the top of the bell curve as going together? I sure don't, and most of the successful, talented jumpers I know are also unusally good at most other things they do. These folks are certainly not 'normal', and if you would catagorize yourself as such, you should be very weary of proceeding in the sport.

It might seem like sunshine a butterflies right now, but if you keep jumping you stand a very good chance of being put into a very challenging situation where your very survival will depend on your quick and accurate response to a problem. A skydive goes from 'fun' to 'deadly' in about one second, and if you're not preparred to hang with that change and react correctly and promptly, hang up your rig now.

That aside, the irony of 'you' is hard to believe. Bill (and myself) came right out and said it, you are the problem here. You are the reason that you get the responses and attitude you're getting.

You want to know why you get sour delivery? Because some of us have been delivering these messages for a decade (or more) and listening to the 'know it all' responses from the new jumpers all along. I take my time and knowledge to try and help someone, and they tell me why I'm wrong and what I've spent 17 years learning doesn't apply to them. How do you think I should react? The frist time it happens in year one? The 25th time is happens in year 3? The 50 th time it happens in year 5? Do really expect me (or anyone) to 'suffer fools lightly' for the rest of my life?

You had a chance to state your thoughts, and were given sound advice about some errors in your thinking. You want to talk about 'catching more flies with honey', where was the honey in your resposne? When much more experienced jumpers tried to help you and give you some good advice, did you accpet it humbly and in such a way that would encourge them to help you further, or did you throw it in their face why they were wrong (so you thought) and tell them they were just behind the times?

In addition to being 'a part of the problenm', you are the one who should heed your own advice. Why don't you watch what you say, and make sure that it's done in a way to encourage the other party to keep talking and keep giving advice. Like it or not, you're the FNG (fucking new guy), and I (we) am the one who's been around the block and holds 'the keys to the kingdom'. Given that, how about you think twice about your delivery, and if what you're saying isn't met with continued good advice, you need to change your attitude and approach.

"What's my name? Fuck you, that's my name"


(This post was edited by davelepka on Oct 18, 2012, 5:36 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 18, 2012, 8:03 AM
Post #62 of 102 (780 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

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I have also heard several of them mention the educational value

And what - exactly, "educational value" do you think, wearing even a small-format, POV camera, actually provides? Enlighten me.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 18, 2012, 8:21 AM
Post #63 of 102 (772 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

>And what - exactly, "educational value" do you think, wearing even a small-format,
>POV camera, actually provides?

It can help educate people who watch their Youtube videos. There are people unaware of how cool they are.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #64 of 102 (720 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have also heard several of them mention the educational value

And what - exactly, "educational value" do you think, wearing even a small-format, POV camera, actually provides? Enlighten me.

Seeing even 5 seconds of crappy footage of yourself from another silly newb jumper still llustrates a more concrete picture of potential areas of improvement for most than the longest discussion. That goes doubly so when the person wearing the camera shouldn't be paying enough attention you to note every detail of your position and orientation.

Dave, I am not surprised any by the hostility here. Expressing different perspectives on the internet usually goes like this. More personal discourse is generally far more pleasant. Still, the incidents perfectly exemplify my original point that a little sincere education could do a lot of good. Otherwise, it is like seeing someone just cleared for solos making general newbie mistakes and then ruling that AFF should last 100 jumps because new skydivers are too dangerous. Helping newer jumpers understand those things before they turn into big issues is how skydivers make it past 20 jumps in the first place. Basically, with every other aspect of skydiving, you have to show people what they are doing wrong and how they could do it better.

My first few pack jobs were obviously pretty messy, and I got a lot of great advice to help clean them up. None of those people ever said "you don't have any idea what you're doing so you should not even try to pack your own rig," even though Id bet they take packing more seriously than wearing a camera. Insfead, they stopped me and gave some pointers on how to avoid problems before they happened, and they still do that and I still ask them to. Just the same, if you see someone still fiddling with a ghetto-rigged camera 5 minutes before exit altitude, try to emphasize that the camera isn't what the jump is about, and help them understand that there is still a lot to worry about. If the camera isn't ready then, ask if they would leave it in the plane and sort it out on the ground before their next jump.

That kind of lesson would sink much deeper and be far more lasting than a condescending headshake that they will just ignore any time you aren't around.

I don't know a whole lot about all the intricacies of skydiving, but I did dedicate several years of my life to understanding how people learn, how the mind responds to different teaching stimuli, and generally the kind of circumstances that lead to undesireable decisions and behaviors. And I guarantee the students would be more responsive to the above approach ("I see that is a distraction / snag risk right now. Why don't you hang it up for this jump and we'll figure out a better solution back on the ground?") than the condescending "you clearly don't know anything you need to know for this, so just give up" that seems to be your preferred method of delivery.


(This post was edited by Lindenwood on Oct 18, 2012, 3:57 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 18, 2012, 4:00 PM
Post #65 of 102 (704 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Helping new jumpers understand those things before they turn into big issues is how skydivers make it past 20 jumps in the first place.

I wonder how many thousand jumpers in the world have made it past 20 jumps?.

I wonder who helped them get there?.

No doubt some of the arrogant old farts who post on here have done their share. Hell I've only taken a thousand or so past that point.

I'm gonna have to get my act together and improve my delivery.......no doubt I could do better.....


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2012, 4:56 PM
Post #66 of 102 (691 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Dave, I am not surprised any by the hostility here. Expressing different perspectives on the internet usually goes like this. More personal discourse is generally far more pleasant. Still, the incidents perfectly exemplify my original point that a little sincere education could do a lot of good. Otherwise, it is like seeing someone just cleared for solos making general newbie mistakes and then ruling that AFF should last 100 jumps because new skydivers are too dangerous. Helping newer jumpers understand those things before they turn into big issues is how skydivers make it past 20 jumps in the first place. Basically, with every other aspect of skydiving, you have to show people what they are doing wrong and how they could do it better.

My first few pack jobs were obviously pretty messy, and I got a lot of great advice to help clean them up. None of those people ever said "you don't have any idea what you're doing so you should not even try to pack your own rig," even though Id bet they take packing more seriously than wearing a camera. Insfead, they stopped me and gave some pointers on how to avoid problems before they happened, and they still do that and I still ask them to. Just the same, if you see someone still fiddling with a ghetto-rigged camera 5 minutes before exit altitude, try to emphasize that the camera isn't what the jump is about, and help them understand that there is still a lot to worry about. If the camera isn't ready then, ask if they would leave it in the plane and sort it out on the ground before their next jump.

That kind of lesson would sink much deeper and be far more lasting than a condescending headshake that they will just ignore any time you aren't around.

I don't know a whole lot about all the intricacies of skydiving, but I did dedicate several years of my life to understanding how people learn, how the mind responds to different teaching stimuli, and generally the kind of circumstances that lead to undesireable decisions and behaviors. And I guarantee the students would be more responsive to the above approach ("I see that is a distraction / snag risk right now. Why don't you hang it up for this jump and we'll figure out a better solution back on the ground?") than the condescending "you clearly don't know anything you need to know for this, so just give up" that seems to be your preferred method of delivery.

Once again, you have missed the point by a wide margin, and you prove it with your response.

In your case, sound advice was given in a friendly manner in the beginning. Less friendly advice is what you got after YOU continued to insist that you were correct about the issue. The very reason you get the attitude that you do is because you continued to insist that you were right, despite much more experienced and informed jumpers telling you otherwise. Once you did that, you immediately pigeon-holed yourself into being another know-it-all newbie, and in turn were treated as such.

You continue to point out what everyone else is doign wrong with their approach or delivery, but the real problem is you and your attitude. At the end of the day, what I'm saying is correct but not delivered in the correct manner (by your standards). What you are saying is incorrect, but maybe delivered in a more friendly manner. We're coming at it from opposite ends, but no matter which way you slice it, I'm right and that's the most important factor when it comes to skydiving.

Packing? Did you turn to those people who tried to help you and tell them that your way was right, and their view was old and outdated? I'm betting no, my guess is that you greatfully accepted the help that was offered, and paid close attention to what they said. Imagine the response you would have gotten here if you had treated those who tried to help you on the camera issue with the same attitude and respect.


excaza  (C License)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #67 of 102 (675 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seeing even 5 seconds of crappy footage of yourself from another silly newb jumper still llustrates a more concrete picture of potential areas of improvement for most than the longest discussion. That goes doubly so when the person wearing the camera shouldn't be paying enough attention you to note every detail of your position and orientation.
Know what else does this? Jumping with experienced fliers. You'd get far better footage and far better advice and the most it would cost you is a jump ticket.

In reply to:
None of those people ever said "you don't have any idea what you're doing so you should not even try to pack your own rig,"
What even? This is a terrible analogy. Are you sitting there telling them your trashpack is superior? It'll open, what's there to be afraid of?


(This post was edited by excaza on Oct 18, 2012, 5:23 PM)


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:21 PM
Post #68 of 102 (673 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

When I received packing advice, they approached me in the manner I said was better: "here is what you are doing wrong. Here is how you can do it better." In fact, I have received asked for a crap ton of advice that was delivered in this manner, even when the problem being corrected could have had far more direct consequences. In other areas of life, especially working with students, this has been far and away the most successful method of passing along advice.

My recommendation / request was to follow the lead I posted from the other thread, which follows the exact same pattern: "here are some things you might do wrong. Here are some ways to prevent them."

How often do you approach new jumpers and ther cameras using this approach? I


excaza  (C License)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:26 PM
Post #69 of 102 (664 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's what you're doing wrong: You're not listening.

Here's how you can do it better: Listen. Cut it out with the pedagogical rambling.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #70 of 102 (657 views)
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Re: [excaza] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Excaza, it was a perfect analogy.

They saw me doing something that could be dangerous. Their first approach was to point out things I was or could end up doing wrong, and offer ways to make it safer / better.

I have experienced this approach by experienced jumpers giving me every aspect of skydiving advice.

Alternatively, when cameras are involved, the preferred initial approach seems to instead be "you're too stupid to even try this without killing everyone on the load.Take it off now." My question from the VERY beginning was simply why this the case.


excaza  (C License)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:40 PM
Post #71 of 102 (657 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alternatively, when cameras are involved, the preferred initial approach seems to instead be "you're too stupid to even try this without killing everyone on the load.Take it off now."
Stop being a drama queen. It has nothing to do with intelligence. The issue is experience, and that's exactly what everyone has said.

In reply to:
My question from the VERY beginning was simply why this the case.
No it was not. Your very first statement was that cameras aren't as dangerous as everyone says. You stated this as a fact and there was no question anywhere in your post. This is markedly different from your packing analogy; you were looking for advice from the get-go because you knew your packing was awful. A more 'perfect' analogy to what you've been saying is exactly what I presented.


(This post was edited by excaza on Oct 18, 2012, 5:41 PM)


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:48 PM
Post #72 of 102 (651 views)
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Re: [excaza] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here's what you're doing wrong: You're not listening.

Specifically what, exactly, did I say was incorrect? I never said cameras weren't a potential distraction. I never said there weren't potential entanglement risks. I never even once said or even implied that those risks do not apply to me.

I just asked why the approach to correcting or minimizing these camera-related risks is so drastically different than the much more positive and extremely effective initial delivery chosen for every other aspect of skydiving advice?


excaza  (C License)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:01 PM
Post #73 of 102 (641 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Specifically what, exactly, did I say was incorrect? I never said cameras weren't a potential distraction. I never said there weren't potential entanglement risks.
It's nice that you're conjuring this argument for me. I'm not going to play that game, sorry.

In reply to:
I never even once said or even implied that those risks do not apply to me.
I never said you did. You are, however, putting a significant amount of effort into downplaying those risks with statements like "I don't see a whole rash of deaths" and "holy fear of cameras." You know exactly what you're doing, and it's more than whining about the mean old farts telling you you're not experienced enough to fly a camera yet. If your goal is honestly about safety, you'd have a much different attitude than what you're displaying.


(This post was edited by excaza on Oct 18, 2012, 6:01 PM)


5.samadhi

Oct 18, 2012, 6:09 PM
Post #74 of 102 (633 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Excaza, it was a perfect analogy.

They saw me doing something that could be dangerous. Their first approach was to point out things I was or could end up doing wrong, and offer ways to make it safer / better.

I have experienced this approach by experienced jumpers giving me every aspect of skydiving advice.

Alternatively, when cameras are involved, the preferred initial approach seems to instead be "you're too stupid to even try this without killing everyone on the load.Take it off now." My question from the VERY beginning was simply why this the case.
my advice is this:
listen to jumpers with more experience than you with activities as dangerous as skydiving. It pays well to be conservative...if they are wrong and you get to 200-300 jumps and start flying camera and realize that you could have jumped on it sooner...well you havent really lost much. If they are right however, you will have gained a whole lot of safety for those 150 jumps you were planning to shoot video on.

Believe me I was in your shoes a few years ago when I started skydiving and contemplated cameras. I waited and I was thankful once I did start jumping camera around 300 skydives when I realized how complicated it is and how much it adds to the skydive.

peace!


costanza  (B 38742)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:20 PM
Post #75 of 102 (628 views)
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Re: [excaza] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Seeing even 5 seconds of crappy footage of yourself from another silly newb jumper still llustrates a more concrete picture of potential areas of improvement for most than the longest discussion. That goes doubly so when the person wearing the camera shouldn't be paying enough attention you to note every detail of your position and orientation.
Know what else does this? Jumping with experienced fliers. You'd get far better footage and far better advice and the most it would cost you is a jump ticket.

In reply to:
None of those people ever said "you don't have any idea what you're doing so you should not even try to pack your own rig,"
What even? This is a terrible analogy. Are you sitting there telling them your trashpack is superior? It'll open, what's there to be afraid of?

I have disagree with you linwood, and agree with excaza on this one. i'll give you two examples. first, i taught myself how to snowboard. it's not hard, done in a day for new people. just take your time and figure it out. was i able to get down the mountain? sure. was i doing it as confidently and as well as i could have? nope. a one hour lesson corrected many of my learned errors. you can only learn so much from watching something. you won't get that nuance.

to parallel your 5 seconds comment, seeing 5 seconds is great! i'd be super excited, and tell everyone and their mother. but you know what? without any sort of proper instruction or mentorship, you have no idea how to improve, because you have no idea where you started from. you need to have that transition of knowledge.

another example i'll put out there - how i learned how to fly in a wind tunnel. i sat there in the waiting section for 3-4 flights ahead of me, and then a retired sergeant major looked at me and said 'go.' that was the depth of my instruction - one word. when it was time to learn how to fly military equipment he said 'put this on and get back in.' the first time i sort of figured it out. i gave them some good laughs. the next time i went in he was there to coach me. i figured out what to do with my arms, my legs, etc., but there were subtle nuances that I would not have known without his guidance.

in fact, a direct contradiction to your statement, some of those first flights i was in there alone, and have to figure out how to fly on my own. i developed some bad body position habits I carry to this day. so, no, those 5 seconds of video do not provide you with any sort of metric with which to gauge your success or failure. if that were the case, we would all be jumping cameras, in wingsuit flocks, on jump 10.


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