Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Preparing to camera fly

 


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Oct 5, 2012, 8:14 PM
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Hey folks,

I'm considering getting a camera to video my jumps, and eventually I'd like to fly camera on formations as well.

How would you recommend I begin preparing for using a camera on jumps?

My DZ requires a B license (which I have), and I know that USPA recommends a C license to fly camera. I'm really eager to hear any advice you may have that goes beyond 'get your C license'.

What sorts of skills should I practice to prepare for eventualities with a camera?
I know there are considerations on opening, what can I practice without a camera to better prepare me?

I plan to talk to a few folks who fly camera at my DZ as well, but thought I'd plumb the wisdom of dropzone.com too.

Thanks
Vanessa


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 5, 2012, 8:31 PM
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http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 5, 2012, 8:31 PM
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You can practice putting your body where you want it and staying there. It is important that your skydiving is second nature to you before you start adding other things to worry about.

When you start flying camera, don't use a wide angle lens. It's a crutch and you will be a better camera flyer learning without it.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 5, 2012, 8:34 PM
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Quote:
My DZ requires a B license (which I have), and I know that USPA recommends a C license to fly camera. I'm really eager to hear any advice you may have that goes beyond 'get your C license'.

My first piece of advice would be that anytime you get conflicting opinions from two reputable sources regarding safety and skydiving, go with the more conservative option. I can't recall that last time a jumper was injured because they chose to take to slow and easy.

Next up, you already mentioned, talk to the local camera flyers. Truth be told, if your flying and awareness are up to flying a camera, you don't need more than a handful of jumps to prepare for shooting video. So if you have 70-some jumps now, knock out another 100, and then talk to the camera staff to get you squared away.

In the meantime, just jump and have fun. The only jump you need to be worried about right now is the next one. Focus on that, and worry about flying a camera when you get closer to actually flying a camera.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Oct 6, 2012, 1:52 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
anytime you get conflicting opinions from two reputable sources regarding safety and skydiving, go with the more conservative option.

This should be printed on the A license card.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 6, 2012, 2:26 AM
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 Get good at using a camera on the ground.....


suuz83  (B 716290)

Oct 6, 2012, 9:13 PM
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Why do so many people with low jump numbers want to jump with camera's? I'm happy that my country has a 200-formation-jumps rule and I have no desires to jump with one earlier. I think it's way more important to work on your flying skills first and when you finally have one maybe you would be able to see something on your footage Wink


zerospinskier  (C 41841)

Oct 6, 2012, 9:28 PM
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In reply to:
work on your flying skills first and when you finally have one maybe you would be able to see something on your footage Wink

An important point. Everyone goes an watches Jonathan Pears' amazing edits, and wants to accomplish the same type of thing. The problem is that it is not easy to make skydiving look good. First you need to be very good at flying, then you need to be very good at positioning yourself to capture that awesome flying you and your friends are doing. Other than the really really good guys, most video you see at the DZ, especially the low experience people, are most often shakey shots of 3 other specs sitflying because everyone is backsliding away from each other and the GoPro has a super wide lens. First learn to do some skydiving that is worth filming, then work on capturing it.

(I say this as a someone who is really looking forward to filming and making edits. The way I am working towards it? By spending a lot of time learning to fly in the tunnel and in the sky.)


Shredex

Oct 6, 2012, 9:53 PM
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Camera flyers are always better then the people they're filming lol


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Oct 7, 2012, 4:41 AM
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Thanks all. It definitely makes sense to get really comfortable in the sky first. I'm also planning tunnel time during the winter here to keep my skills up.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Oct 7, 2012, 11:05 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

>I'm considering getting a camera to video my jumps, and eventually I'd like to fly
>camera on formations as well.

Then learning to do formations is the most important thing you can do to prepare. 4-way is a great way to start, first learning to do 4-way then learning to film it. Try to jump with medium experience people if you are short of cash. If you can afford it a player-coach team is a great way to learn about 4-way. 8-way is also a decent way to learn about formations. Avoid the boogie 10 and 20 ways; you don't learn much and they're more dangerous anyway.

Likewise, once you have reasonable 4-way skills, start with a medium-experience 4 way team when you start trying to do video. (Low experience teams slide around a lot and present breakoff hazards; you'll feel too much pressure from a very experienced 4-way team and you won't learn as much.)

Once you're comfortable doing 4 way video you might want to try your hand at 8-way and work up from there.


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Oct 8, 2012, 9:31 AM
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Re: [billvon] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks! I've been in a few 4-ways, but need to get on more of them. My DZ is starting to get quiet for the winter, so I'll probably have to find time to get down to California to practice.


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:10 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
My DZ requires a B license (which I have), and I know that USPA recommends a C license to fly camera. I'm really eager to hear any advice you may have that goes beyond 'get your C license'.

My first piece of advice would be that anytime you get conflicting opinions from two reputable sources regarding safety and skydiving, go with the more conservative option. I can't recall that last time a jumper was injured because they chose to take to slow and easy.

Next up, you already mentioned, talk to the local camera flyers. Truth be told, if your flying and awareness are up to flying a camera, you don't need more than a handful of jumps to prepare for shooting video. So if you have 70-some jumps now, knock out another 100, and then talk to the camera staff to get you squared away.

In the meantime, just jump and have fun. The only jump you need to be worried about right now is the next one. Focus on that, and worry about flying a camera when you get closer to actually flying a camera.

daves right, i learned a lot about camera flying from dave, but none of it would be helpful if i didnt have some sort of foundation with flying skills. also having enough jumps to encounter different situations to expand your knowledge on how to deal with different problems a camera might introduce.

when youre wearing a camera and forget to turn it on, that might be a checkmark in the list of things you need for camera flying. its pretty funny/scary to see people who are so distracted by turning their gopro on that they dont realize their gear is set up wrong. then you have the people who do their gear checks, know the plan for the skydive and have to turn their camera on in freefall because they totally forgot they were jumping a camera. when you get to that point its a fair bet youre not distracted by the camera. Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Oct 9, 2012, 4:24 PM
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Re: [waveoff5500] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

> then you have the people who do their gear checks, know the plan for the skydive
>and have to turn their camera on in freefall because they totally forgot they were
>jumping a camera. when you get to that point its a fair bet youre not distracted by the
>camera.

Well, if you're messing with the camera in freefall it's a fair bet that it's distracting you . . .

One of the things that any camera flyer has to learn is to multitask. At many DZ's the cameraman is the first out, and thus also (generally) opens the door, spots or checks the spot and climbs out first. This of course is on top of all the additional camera stuff. Which is one reason why the 200 jump recommendation is important; that's a lot of stuff to do on one dive, and with all those demands for your attention it's easy to overlook just one tiny thing (like say your chest strap.)


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Oct 9, 2012, 9:35 PM
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sorry man, more tongue in cheek than serious, just trying to convey the point that youre focused on other things than the camera and end up forgetting it because its not a first priority.


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

Oct 10, 2012, 8:37 PM
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In reply to:
> then you have the people who do their gear checks, know the plan for the skydive
>and have to turn their camera on in freefall because they totally forgot they were
>jumping a camera. when you get to that point its a fair bet youre not distracted by the
>camera.

Well, if you're messing with the camera in freefall it's a fair bet that it's distracting you . . .

One of the things that any camera flyer has to learn is to multitask. At many DZ's the cameraman is the first out, and thus also (generally) opens the door, spots or checks the spot and climbs out first. This of course is on top of all the additional camera stuff. Which is one reason why the 200 jump recommendation is important; that's a lot of stuff to do on one dive, and with all those demands for your attention it's easy to overlook just one tiny thing (like say your chest strap.)

Depending on jump run direction, sometimes I use the pop up flash for exits, then put it back down at the bottom of the hill. Is that messing with your camera in freefall? Sly


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 11, 2012, 9:06 AM
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In reply to:
Depending on jump run direction, sometimes I use the pop up flash for exits, then put it back down at the bottom of the hill. Is that messing with your camera in freefall? Sly

YES! It would be considered so. But my guess is that your 900+ jumps have given you the experience and ability to do so safely. A 100 jump wonder..... not so much? Cool


5.samadhi

Oct 11, 2012, 9:12 AM
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last weekend somebody on the 4 way dive i was filming decided to pull in place instead of turning and tracking. This had them whizzing by me while I was in freefall (a second before I was reaching for my BOC to pull). A fucking bonehead move.

I had to turn and track away to the clear airspace they did not take and pull at a lower than normal altitude for me (I was fully open at 2.2k').

This is food for thought for you poster with some 100 jumps and a camera. It was a lot for me to handle with 300 jumps I'm not sure how I would have reacted to being forced to change the dive plan mid-dive because of a safety issue like that had I not had the experience of the last two hundred jumps.

stay safe-ishSmile


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Oct 11, 2012, 9:24 AM
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Re: [gearless_chris] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

>Depending on jump run direction, sometimes I use the pop up flash for exits, then put
>it back down at the bottom of the hill. Is that messing with your camera in freefall?

Definitely! But if you keep forgetting to do it, then having that flash is probably more of a distraction than a useful thing to have.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 11, 2012, 1:24 PM
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In reply to:
last weekend somebody on the 4 way dive i was filming decided to pull in place instead of turning and tracking. This had them whizzing by me while I was in freefall (a second before I was reaching for my BOC to pull). A fucking bonehead move.

I had to turn and track away to the clear airspace they did not take and pull at a lower than normal altitude for me (I was fully open at 2.2k').

This is food for thought for you poster with some 100 jumps and a camera. It was a lot for me to handle with 300 jumps I'm not sure how I would have reacted to being forced to change the dive plan mid-dive because of a safety issue like that had I not had the experience of the last two hundred jumps.

stay safe-ishSmile

Those guys I like to dump right next to, fly my canopy into the middle of thier backs and teach them a little CReW?? Tongue

TongueTongue If it's a canopy collision you want, here I come!!!


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Oct 12, 2012, 11:14 AM
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In reply to:
its pretty funny/scary to see people who are so distracted by turning their gopro on that they dont realize their gear is set up wrong. then you have the people who do their gear checks, know the plan for the skydive and have to turn their camera on in freefall because they totally forgot they were jumping a camera. when you get to that point its a fair bet youre not distracted by the camera. Wink

To the OP, consider getting a more user friendly camera like a Contour. They are easy to turn on and switch to 'Record' mode without any second-guessing. Where as with the GoPro you have to ask someone to verify that it's actually on and recording.

The Contour has a laser pointer that shows you that the camera is turned on and your sight angle. The record switch is big and easy to use, pushing it forward you know it is in the record position.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:28 AM
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Jumping with a camera isn't always about producing epic videos to gain fame on youtube. Most everyone I have talked to who wears a camera does it just so they can relive that moment. I have also heard several of them mention the educational value of being recorded, which I have experienced and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

It is no different than taking pictures on a vacation, for most people. Yes, with little experience it is obviously bad to get distracted by the camera to the point where they only see what the camera sees. However, most of the guys Ive met who jump a camera only think about it to turn it on in the plane and turn it off on the way back to the hanger.

In short, it isn't always about trying to become some youtube star or show off your m4d skyllz to other jumpers on the internet. Rather, a camera these days, for most, is just cheap and simple insurance that they'll have a few million words worth of stories to look at and show their family and friends down the road.

Flame Suit, On! ;)


5.samadhi

Oct 13, 2012, 7:56 AM
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having not had jumped one (presumably?) you take a stance that disagrees with nearly every single experienced jumper that has jumped a camera. Don't you think SOMETHING is up with that??? Every body is not trying to 'hold down' newer jumpers from doing something cool like recording their memories...for no reason.

It IS a distraction. It IS an inane debate between inexperienced and experienced jumpers about whether or not it is a distraction. Some trust needs to come in for you. Find an experienced jumper you trust and give them your theory about how a camera isn't a distraction. Then listen to them and think. They know.

peace Smile


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 13, 2012, 10:03 AM
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My point wasnt that is was safe or that anyone is wrong about the increased distraction. My point was to counter some of the older jumpers who think every younger jumper with a GoPro who has less than 1000 jumps is some wannabe hotshot punk. That is absolutely not the case and I only hope to show that the bitter attitude toward the younger crowd and their go-pros isn't necessary. The better option is to accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks and help develop solutions that can satisfy everyone (like camera mounts that eliminate snag points, coaching on developing gear-up routines to incorporate the added distractions of the camera, etc).

There was another thread started by a guy with 100 jumps asking about how to safely jump his GoPro. Somewhat surprisingly, he actually got a lot of usable, friendly advice, even from old-timers. As another relatively new jumper like yourself pointed out in that thread, it seems times are a-changing. I appreciate those who are expanding their perspectives to keep everyone as safe as possible while letting them get what they want out of the sport. The guy who barks at every young whipper-snapper doing something differently is just going to get a lot of closed ears--my educational background and experience as a teacher and leader fully support this. Alternatively, the guy who shows them how to mitigate some of those risks through education and safer equipment is the one who will, in the long run, have a more positive impact on younger skydivers (in their safety, their enjoyment of the sport, and in their willingness to listen to all the other advice the old guy would be willing to give).

Here is another example. In schools, cell phones had become a major annoyance in classrooms. After a few years, however, most of the successful teachers stopped barking at students for every phone sighting, and adapted their rules to be more accepting of them. Of course, just like with cameras, balanced rules and standards are still in place. However, for most teachers, as long as they arent lecturing, they are okay with a student sending a text here and there as long as the work is getting done. Now, if it is perceived the it is causing more problems or affecting other students, measures will be taken--just like in skydiving with a camera. However, most successful teachers have decided that it simply isn't the hill worth dying on. And here is the final kicker: When students are in situations where they need advice (whether they know it or not), whose advice do you think they'll more readily heed? The one they perceive as a totalitarian jerk who doesn't even care to understand them or their desires, or the one who has been reasonably flexible to keep them doing what they need to do (homework / flying safely) while letting them do a little of what they want to do (text / jump with a camera).

Different situations, of course, but the psychology is exactly the same.


Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better. I have seen more and more older skydivers on here (and ESPECIALLY off the web) choosing the first path.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Oct 13, 2012, 10:24 AM
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
every younger jumper with a GoPro who has less than 1000 jumps is some wannabe hotshot punk

It's not the wearing of the camera that causes the punk impression. The thing about being new is, they literally don't know any better, and it's not their fault. So we should explain it carefully, and gently.

It's the subsequent rejection of good advice that causes the irritation and the verbal smacking. And that is so common that maybe some people jump the gun a little, out of general frustration.

We should all cut each other some slack.


Trafficdiver  (D License)

Oct 13, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My point wasnt that is was safe or that anyone is wrong about the increased distraction. My point was to counter some of the older jumpers who think every younger jumper with a GoPro who has less than 1000 jumps is some wannabe hotshot punk. That is absolutely not the case and I only hope to show that the bitter attitude toward the younger crowd and their go-pros isn't necessary. The better option is to accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks and help develop solutions that can satisfy everyone (like camera mounts that eliminate snag points, coaching on developing gear-up routines to incorporate the added distractions of the camera, etc).

So if the young crowd wants to skip this AFF Malarkey and go right for the freeflying, the older folks should just sit back and say, good luck?


Why don't you buy your own plane, open your own DZ and try that one out and come back to us with some stories.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 13, 2012, 4:13 PM
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Re: [Trafficdiver] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice straw man, there.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 13, 2012, 7:15 PM
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better.

Times may change in the classroom, yet the amount of time available to a distracted or entangled skydiver hasn't. People aren't any more adept with a camera at 100 jumps today than they were 10 years ago. Camera size doesn't play a significant role in this conversation.
Texting has indeed become a part of day to day life; jumping out of airplanes wearing a camera at 25 jumps is not.


Trafficdiver  (D License)

Oct 13, 2012, 8:16 PM
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In reply to:
Nice straw man, there.

Ahh, you're a smart one. I screwed up big time trying to prove you wrong. You already know everything. No prob man. Do what you want.

Can't wait to hear your smart answers on wingsuiting and canopy progression. Crazy


bk1411  (B 6128)

Oct 14, 2012, 7:59 AM
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Re: [Trafficdiver] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to stir the pot. Canadian liscence requirements are simply a B liscence to jump camera and a talk with a experienced camera man. In all reality you can jump your camera before a 100 jumps if your on the ball. As this rule has been there for quite some time with CSPA, and with no major issues sprouting because of it, I Agree with Lindenwood, If you give them a proper briefing, explain the hazards and they are heads up, there's no problem with them taking their go-pro/contour/drift/etc.. . They are a great debfrief tool.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 14, 2012, 8:16 AM
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Re: [Trafficdiver] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Still the same trick, Trafficdiver ;) .


I heard it mentioned that more often than not, half the people on a load who arent students are wearing a sport camera. When asked, most of them have less than 200 jumps. Indeed, times are changing. More and more DZOs are accepting this because that is how this generation wants to jump. Funny enough, I don't think we've seen the same rash of deaths like we'd see from tossing untrained first-timers out of the plane with nothing more than a rig and a how-to-skydive pamphlet...

I thank and respect those like Airtwardo and the rest of the people in the below thread for helping this jumper do it more safely. Like I said, it seems most of the highly-seasoned, successful role models have recognized that ranting on the internet isn't going to change anyone's mind. Rather, a majority of them posted great tips and pointers to minimize physical risks and keep his mind pointed the right direction.

Http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4384415;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;



It's almost like you've managed to squeak into the "over 200 jumps" club and now want to stand next to the old timers and stare down your nose at the silly newbies...


(This post was edited by Lindenwood on Oct 14, 2012, 8:18 AM)


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 14, 2012, 8:38 AM
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In the other thread I mentioned, several people pointed how mounting techniques to minimize and even eliminate the snag issue. That would be the solution to your proposed problem of dealing with an entanglement. The distraction issue is not solved by damning a new jumper for choosing to wear a camera. Rather, as was discussed in that thread, discussion and gear-up tips are the key. Like, turning on the camera early and then doing your gear-checks like normal, or not trying to film yourself (like with long extensions or wrist-mounts) because those are way more distracting with a POV setup which a lot of people tend to forget about (at least to the point where it isnt a focus of the dive).

I am not saying people are any "better" or worse at 100 jumps than they were 10 years ago. I'm just saying that the HD cameras are becoming the rule for most jumpers, rather than the exception. People are going to wear them more and more whether we like it or not. So, we have only a few options:

1) Demand federal and state regulation to fine jumpers or DZOs who don't follow the 200-jump "law."
-I hope everyone recognizes why this is not favorable.

2) Create and widen the inevitable social rift that would come from enforcing or even bickering about the rule.
-New jumpers would be too bitter toward the experienced ones to listen to the rest of their advice.
-We'd probably start seeing "camera-friendly" DZs pretty quickly anyways.

3)Accept the changes and do what we can to educate newer jumpers of the risks, provide succestions to minimize them, and point people toward safer gear.


Trafficdiver  (D License)

Oct 14, 2012, 2:48 PM
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's almost like you've managed to squeak into the "over 200 jumps" club and now want to stand next to the old timers and stare down your nose at the silly newbies...

I don't jump a camera so try again.

I think you're advocating something foolish and trying to find an excuse for it. The "everybody else is doing it so it must be alright, Dad." method. It just doesn't convince me. I know there are not many fatalities with small cameras, but the # of people hurt is not well documented so how do you know how many incidents there really are?

When a low time jumper (I consider myself one) is diving down to a formation they can do serious damage to people if they don't slow down well above it, then fly in control to their slots. I don't see how a camera can help that. In fact, I see it only as an impediment, especially if they fly into my arm with a camera on their head.

I think the first 200 jumps should be focusing 100% on the fundamentals, Camera flying is not a fundamental.

Again, do what you want, that doesn't mean I have to think it's not foolish.


(This post was edited by Trafficdiver on Oct 14, 2012, 3:27 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Oct 14, 2012, 3:51 PM
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

> In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports
>anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as
>possible without creating social rifts . . . .

I agree that it is best to present information in an approachable way, and that there are even nicer ways to say "no."

But "creating social rifts" must take a back seat to safety every time. Yes, some old-timers are asses about advice, and some newbies can't take advice without feeling they are being attacked. Neither one makes it OK to use cameras sooner. The same risks still apply; the air isn't any different.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 14, 2012, 6:56 PM
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Re: [Trafficdiver] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I think the first 200 jumps should be focusing 100% on the fundamentals, Camera flying is not a fundamental.

We shouldn't put "camera flying" and "flying while happening to wear a camera" in the same boat. There is nothing stopping a new jumper from learning fundamentals while wearing a camera.

And if someone comes crashing iinto the formation head-first, his helmet is going to hurt just as bad as the camera. Not to mention, the camera is not the issue, but the jumper himself. I guarantee on the ground you'd be griping about the jumper, not the camera.


Bill, you definitely aren't wrong. I am just saying, the "war," from what I can tell, is almost over--HD cameras are everywhere. We might as well make the best of it and put our efforts into education and risk-mitigation rather than wishing things were like the old days, you know? If you run into a stubborn new jumper, we can probably guarantee a better response from "hey, if I were you, Id keep X in mind and make Y changes to your camera setup for Z reasons," as opposed to "you idiot, you suck too bad to even be trying to wear that!" A rare few might actually listen to the latter advice, but we can both imagine that most, even if they took it off that day for your benefit, would go right back to wearing it at the next DZ or the next time you aren't around, tight? On the other band, helping him understand the risks and giving suggestions to reduce them will probably sink in a lot better. Not to mention, he is much more likely to pass that advice on to other new jumpers he meets who hadnt been expomsed to the same advice.

Traffic, this isn't an issue of "everyone's doing it so it must be right." Rather, it is a matter of "everybody's already doing it so your approach of alienating every one of them into behaving how you want is fundamentally futile."


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 14, 2012, 7:30 PM
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

 
The size of the camera or camera helmet is not germain, nor is the frequency of camera use on the ground by the user. The simple fact is that time spent considering things like camera preparedness (both in the plane and before), camera anlges or 'getting the shot' and really anything related to cameras and skydiving are subrtacting from you paying attention to what you need to be focused on.

I guarantee you that if I followed you from your gear-up through your landing, I could offer you a tip on how to better handle yourself with virtually every move you make. Like it or not, there is a WORLD of shit you don't know, and haven't even remotely considered. Meanwhile, you advocate jumpers such as yourself dicking around with a GoPro as being OK becasue 'everyone is doing it' when you should be paying attention to 100 other things that are literally right in front of your face, but due to your inexperience, you see right through them.

Here's the hard truth about skydiving. A great number of accidents occur through the actions of more than one jumper. Your dumb ass is just as likely to hurt someone esle as it is to hurt yourself.

Let's think about cameras, and where they can be a problem. In the plane, you're making sure that your camera is on and 'flight ready', but you forget part of your gear check (has happened many, many times). Then your pin/PC comes out while you're in the door and your main hangs up on the tail. Your mistake, everyone elses problem.

At any point in freefall or under canopy - sooner or later you're going to connect the dots that where you look is what you shoot, and just picking your head up or turning it sideways would frame something up nice (or even just get it in the shot). Now you're not looking where you're going. Your mistake, a problem for anyone around you.

Here's where you little internet smartass world comes tumbling down. I've been in your shoes before, and I'm in my shoes now, and I've worn many, many pairs of shoes in between. You have only worn one pair of shoes in this sport, and without the benefit of time and experience, there is simply no way that you know better than me when it comes to skydiving, and specifically flying camera. A good 80% of my jumps hve been made with a camera, and that's a shitload of camera jumps.

You can argue your side anyway you want, and I could make up some dumb shit about flying the space shuttle and type it up in a convincing manner. It doesn't make it right, and the fact is that a trained, experienced astronaut is going to know 1000x better than I would how to fly a space shuttle. I don't think you're convincing anyone here that your bullshit is true ir correct, but the problem is that you seem to soldier on as if it is, and sooner or later that attitude is going to bite you in the ass, and as I mentioned before, there's a fair chance you're going to take somebody down with you when it does.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 15, 2012, 8:33 AM)


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Oct 14, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #37 of 102 (856 views)
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In reply to:
Jumping with a camera isn't always about producing epic videos to gain fame on youtube. Most everyone I have talked to who wears a camera does it just so they can relive that moment. I have also heard several of them mention the educational value of being recorded, which I have experienced and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

It is no different than taking pictures on a vacation, for most people. Yes, with little experience it is obviously bad to get distracted by the camera to the point where they only see what the camera sees. However, most of the guys Ive met who jump a camera only think about it to turn it on in the plane and turn it off on the way back to the hanger.

In short, it isn't always about trying to become some youtube star or show off your m4d skyllz to other jumpers on the internet. Rather, a camera these days, for most, is just cheap and simple insurance that they'll have a few million words worth of stories to look at and show their family and friends down the road.

Flame Suit, On! ;)

I couldn't have said it better! I had a situation today where a 4-way went south, and I backed off and watched the other 3 flyers play in each other's burble for 15s. It would've been very helpful for them to have a video to share insights.

At the same time, I appreciate all the caution and advice from folks. This is not a decision I take lightly. I will get very comfortable in the air, in the exit and under canopy before adding a camera. It might be 150 jumps, it might be 200. After talking to a few folks I realize the number doesn't matter as much as the confidence and comfort in all situations.


(This post was edited by vanessalh on Oct 14, 2012, 9:15 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 14, 2012, 9:20 PM
Post #38 of 102 (852 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Not replying to Dave, just a general comment.

I have about 1800 jumps and probably 1600 of those are camera jumps. Yes, things were a little different back then.

I just made my 1st jump in 3 yrs and would not have even considered putting on my camera helmet. With all of the experience I have I would probably want to do 30 to 50 jumps before I would put it on.

When I think back to what I knew, and more importantly didn't know, when I first put on a camera helmet it scares the hell out of me.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 15, 2012, 4:12 AM
Post #39 of 102 (824 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

I have acknowledged every one of your other points already. You are just choosing to ignore them so you can make a series of reasonable statements and act like they are all new points. Not only that, but you have missed my ENTIRE point that bitching about it over then internet is accomplishing exactly nothing except allowing you to bask in your own righteousness.

If you want to make the difference you seem so passionate in making, get out there and start educating jumpers on all these risks at the DZ and help them make better choices. You might not get them to take it off, but I bet you can help them keep their pins in place. And that is of far greater benefit than this little tirade. Though, "you're a douche" would probably not be the best opener if you want to keep ears turned in your direction.

*edit*
Basically. The problem as you perceive it already exists. So, you can join the million other people who spend their time preaching to their own choir on the internet, or you can get out there and show your opposition that you are trying to appreciate their position and work to help them understand yours.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 15, 2012, 8:33 AM)




Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 15, 2012, 8:42 AM
Post #41 of 102 (793 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

>There is nothing stopping a new jumper from learning fundamentals while wearing a camera.

There absolutely is. Wearing a camera is a distraction. So is learning 4-way. So is a new exit. Add them together and you don't learn much of anything due to all the distractions; you are dealing with distractions instead of focusing on the dive. Add enough of them together and you start forgetting things like putting your chest strap on, pulling, flaring etc.


>Bill, you definitely aren't wrong. I am just saying, the "war," from what I can tell, is
>almost over--HD cameras are everywhere.

HP canopies are everywhere too and it's still a big problem. A lot of people are dying under good canopies. And while education is one part of solving that problem, keeping newer jumpers off canopies they can't handle is also a very, very important part of that.

>We might as well make the best of it and
>put our efforts into education and risk-mitigation rather than wishing things were like
>the old days, you know?

Years ago at the Ranch there was a sportsman's club in the woods. People would go out there and get drunk then come back and skydive. There were some complaints, but the people who enjoyed doing that said basically the same thing - "we're going to do it so you might as well make the best of it. Why not have the DZ work together instead of wishing it was some other way? Because it's not."

In such a case, would you advise people to just make the best of it, and put your efforts into learning how to skydive safely after a few beers? Rather than trying to alienate them into doing what you want?


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 15, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #42 of 102 (773 views)
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In reply to:


Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better. I have seen more and more older skydivers on here (and ESPECIALLY off the web) choosing the first path.

My guess is… you're the kid in class caught texting a friend while the teacher was explaining an assignment. Clearly, that Phone rule did not apply to you? So, you got all bent out of shape when the teacher took your phone away.

Now you’re the 100 jump wonder who's trying to rationalize her desire (it’s probably already a decision) to jump a camera (before you're ready) in the same manner. You were WRONG in English class, and you’d be wrong in skydiving. And, that’s what experienced skydivers are trying to tell you. But, of course, you’re not listening because your too busy texting you’re BBFF.

Experienced jumpers are not trying to “keep you down”. They’re trying to keep you alive long enough to make a couple thousand skydives together. Don’t take it as a personal insult when you don’t “GET YOUR OWN WAY”! Earn the Privilege to Play!
Cool


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 15, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #43 of 102 (737 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have acknowledged every one of your other points already. You are just choosing to ignore them so you can make a series of reasonable statements and act like they are all new points. Not only that, but you have missed my ENTIRE point that bitching about it over then internet is accomplishing exactly nothing except allowing you to bask in your own righteousness.

If you want to make the difference you seem so passionate in making, get out there and start educating jumpers on all these risks at the DZ and help them make better choices. You might not get them to take it off, but I bet you can help them keep their pins in place. And that is of far greater benefit than this little tirade. Though, "you're a douche" would probably not be the best opener if you want to keep ears turned in your direction.

*edit*
Basically. The problem as you perceive it already exists. So, you can join the million other people who spend their time preaching to their own choir on the internet, or you can get out there and show your opposition that you are trying to appreciate their position and work to help them understand yours.

A worthy read

It's not complete, been busy with life, but there is a lot there.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 15, 2012, 12:31 PM
Post #44 of 102 (726 views)
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In reply to:

A worthy read

It's not complete, been busy with life, but there is a lot there.

... and if that's not enough for her, here is another, more recent one;

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread


Trafficdiver  (D License)

Oct 15, 2012, 3:00 PM
Post #45 of 102 (708 views)
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In reply to:
Traffic, this isn't an issue of "everyone's doing it so it must be right." Rather, it is a matter of "everybody's already doing it so your approach of alienating every one of them into behaving how you want is fundamentally futile."

Sorry dude but once again you're wrong. There are plenty of DZ's where no one with under 200 jumps has a camera on their head.

How does it work. Easy, anyone of the staff or experienced jumpers say, hey new guy how many jumps do you have, less than 200, great, you're not getting on the plane with that gopro. Other than that have a great time.

Maybe you should get out and try a few DZ's before generalizing about what all the cool kids are doing.


jrjny  (A License)

Oct 15, 2012, 7:16 PM
Post #46 of 102 (668 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitely agree with you from a logical standpoint, though with the benefit of some hindsight I would recommend considering maximum risk mitigation.

The more experience you have the more 'moments' you'll experience where the gravity of the sport becomes much more apparent. Most likely they simply serve to improve your awareness but they also may hurt.

Treat every jump like it can kill you. If you reasonably believe you do that with or without a camera, great. If a minor distraction 'might' cause you to stray from your safety procedures, be aware.

It's not a carnival ride.

best,

Jeff


5.samadhi

Oct 15, 2012, 9:54 PM
Post #47 of 102 (652 views)
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"lindenwood" you were asking for a good ole classic davelepka internet ass kicking and you got one.

Laugh


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Oct 16, 2012, 4:40 AM
Post #48 of 102 (628 views)
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In reply to:
There are plenty of DZ's where no one with under 200 jumps has a camera on their head.

Including every single one in the UK.


shibu  (C 42074)

Oct 16, 2012, 5:41 AM
Post #49 of 102 (611 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumping with a camera isn't always about producing epic videos to gain fame on youtube. Most everyone I have talked to who wears a camera does it just so they can relive that moment. I have also heard several of them mention the educational value of being recorded, which I have experienced and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

I agree. I think alot of jumpers just want to wear a camera to capture the moment. But who said being a yoputube star was the reason not to wear a camera?

In reply to:
It is no different than taking pictures on a vacation, for most people.

huh?

In reply to:
Yes, with little experience it is obviously bad to get distracted by the camera to the point where they only see what the camera sees. However, most of the guys Ive met who jump a camera only think about it to turn it on in the plane and turn it off on the way back to the hanger.

How do you know that most of the guys you met who jump a camera only think about it to turn it on & off?

In reply to:
In short, it isn't always about trying to become some youtube star or show off your m4d skyllz to other jumpers on the internet. Rather, a camera these days, for most, is just cheap and simple insurance that they'll have a few million words worth of stories to look at and show their family and friends down the road.

Agreed. The reason for having a camera may be a good one but it does not change safety issues.

In reply to:
Flame Suit, On! ;)

lol. This makes more sense than anything else you have posted.


shibu  (C 42074)

Oct 16, 2012, 6:10 AM
Post #50 of 102 (602 views)
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In reply to:
My point wasnt that is was safe or that anyone is wrong about the increased distraction.

Maybe safety should have been your point.

In reply to:
My point was to counter some of the older jumpers who think every younger jumper with a GoPro who has less than 1000 jumps is some wannabe hotshot punk. That is absolutely not the case and I only hope to show that the bitter attitude toward the younger crowd and their go-pros isn't necessary. The better option is to accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks and help develop solutions that can satisfy everyone (like camera mounts that eliminate snag points, coaching on developing gear-up routines to incorporate the added distractions of the camera, etc).

What I am hearing from the older jumpers is they are using their "wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks". It is just hat you disagree with their "solutions", which is to learn to fly your body so well that you do it without thinking about it.

In reply to:
There was another thread started by a guy with 100 jumps asking about how to safely jump his GoPro. Somewhat surprisingly, he actually got a lot of usable, friendly advice, even from old-timers. As another relatively new jumper like yourself pointed out in that thread, it seems times are a-changing. I appreciate those who are expanding their perspectives to keep everyone as safe as possible while letting them get what they want out of the sport. The guy who barks at every young whipper-snapper doing something differently is just going to get a lot of closed ears--my educational background and experience as a teacher and leader fully support this. Alternatively, the guy who shows them how to mitigate some of those risks through education and safer equipment is the one who will, in the long run, have a more positive impact on younger skydivers (in their safety, their enjoyment of the sport, and in their willingness to listen to all the other advice the old guy would be willing to give).

I do not agree. I really want to wear a camera. One of the reasons I do not is bc I trust the experienced jumpers who tell me not to do it. I appreciate their advice when they tell me that I can mitigate the risks by taking the time to learn to fly better.

In reply to:
Here is another example. In schools, cell phones had become a major annoyance in classrooms. After a few years, however, most of the successful teachers stopped barking at students for every phone sighting, and adapted their rules to be more accepting of them. Of course, just like with cameras, balanced rules and standards are still in place. However, for most teachers, as long as they arent lecturing, they are okay with a student sending a text here and there as long as the work is getting done. Now, if it is perceived the it is causing more problems or affecting other students, measures will be taken--just like in skydiving with a camera. However, most successful teachers have decided that it simply isn't the hill worth dying on. And here is the final kicker: When students are in situations where they need advice (whether they know it or not), whose advice do you think they'll more readily heed? The one they perceive as a totalitarian jerk who doesn't even care to understand them or their desires, or the one who has been reasonably flexible to keep them doing what they need to do (homework / flying safely) while letting them do a little of what they want to do (text / jump with a camera).

Great example. Mad

In reply to:
Different situations, of course, but the psychology is exactly the same.

It is sort of the same in that you are wrong on both counts.

In reply to:
Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better. I have seen more and more older skydivers on here (and ESPECIALLY off the web) choosing the first path.

Times are changing. Maybe when technology gets to the point that cameras are the size of a pencil point so there is no entanglement risk.... Maybe when the cameras can turn themselves on & off by themselves so you are not thinking about the camera instead of thinking about doing another gear check...

Then maybe. Or maybe still not. I'll defer to the jumpers who are already doing it. I can learn from other people's mistakes. I don't need to make them myself.

Sounds like you should spend more time learning how to jump... or maybe how to control the kids in your classroom... and less time posting your uninformed opinions regarding camera use in skydiving for now.


(This post was edited by shibu on Oct 16, 2012, 8:04 AM)


shibu  (C 42074)

Oct 16, 2012, 9:50 AM
Post #51 of 102 (974 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:


Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better. I have seen more and more older skydivers on here (and ESPECIALLY off the web) choosing the first path.

My guess is… you're the kid in class caught texting a friend while the teacher was explaining an assignment....

Damn. He read her like a book. Laugh


(This post was edited by shibu on Oct 16, 2012, 10:54 AM)


tmccann  (A 61009)

Oct 16, 2012, 11:11 AM
Post #52 of 102 (957 views)
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In reply to:
It is no different than taking pictures on a vacation, for most people.

Great analogy.

I used to be a pretty decent photographer (nothing professional, but college photojournalist), and took my camera everywhere, including vacation. I soon learned that I remembered my vacations much better (and enjoyed them more) when I put the camera away and paid more attention to what I was doing than what I could see through my viewfinder.

I'm in no hurry to strap a camera to my head.

T


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 17, 2012, 4:17 AM
Post #53 of 102 (908 views)
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In reply to:
"lindenwood" you were asking for a good ole classic davelepka internet ass kicking and you got one.

Laugh

My internet flamesuit can withstand any internet ass kicking... Wink

But, if we are saying that jumping a camera at 50 jumps (as is apparently done in Canada?) is as dangerous as jumping while drunk or with zero training, then I guess I'll just never develop this holy fear of cameras that some have.


shibu  (C 42074)

Oct 17, 2012, 4:22 AM
Post #54 of 102 (906 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
"lindenwood" you were asking for a good ole classic davelepka internet ass kicking and you got one.

Laugh
.... I guess I'll just never develop this holy fear of cameras that some have.

badass


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 17, 2012, 8:20 AM
Post #55 of 102 (879 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Periodically experienced jumpers hear "you should be nicer to newbies who don't get it! They're not being dicks, they just don't know yet." And so we try and post pages of recommendations, incident lists of what happens if you ignore recommendations, suggestions for moving forward. And then we get this:

>But, if we are saying that jumping a camera at 50 jumps (as is apparently done
>in Canada?) is as dangerous as jumping while drunk or with zero training, then I guess
>I'll just never develop this holy fear of cameras that some have.

Which makes us think "why bother?"

So Lindenwood, the next time you complain about the jumpers who don't "accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks" - save your crocodile tears. Because you're the problem - you are that wannabe hotshot punk that everyone is talking about, who is immune to advice. You're the reason that sometimes experienced jumpers say "you'll kill yourself, you idiot, now get off my DZ and kill yourself somewhere else."

Us "old timers?" We'll save the advice for people who will listen to it, and those people will make up the next generation of camera flyers, instructors and record holders.


5.samadhi

Oct 17, 2012, 8:42 AM
Post #56 of 102 (871 views)
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see now you've gone and made Billvon dole out an internet ass whooping and thats just sad that you had to take it THAT far.

Laugh


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 17, 2012, 11:40 AM
Post #57 of 102 (832 views)
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Bill, could you point me to those incidents where a camera played a major.role in.causing some problem? I have seen anecdotes here and there but I would actually be interested in reading about them if they are clearly rwlated to the camera (entanglement, or a jumper was seen messing with his camera for so long that he missed the spot, etc).

I believe they can be a distraction, and never doubted that. But I am still having a very hard time seeing how having a camera is as dangerous as being intoxicated or having zero training.



An FWIW, Id bet a hundred bucks I have spent more time reading here, and asked more questions at the DZ, than 99% of new jumpers. I am in no rush to downsize, get into hook turns, or any of the extreme aspects of skydiving. I am in no rush to start freeflying, do big group skydives, compete, freefall with toys and objects, or even camera fly. I appreciate the risks of skydiving itself, and don't want to add another major focus and obvious consequences to them. But, the reason why the apparent risks of jumping with a camera are seemingly lost is because statements like "jumping with a camera has been linked as one potential factor in a series of events that may or may not have contributed to the accident" don't carry anywhere near the same weight as "another jumper femured last week from trying the one exact thing we told him not to do."


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 17, 2012, 11:58 AM
Post #58 of 102 (827 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

>Bill, could you point me to those incidents where a camera played a major.role
>in.causing some problem?

Top of the camera forum.

>But I am still having a very hard time seeing how having a camera is as
>dangerous as being intoxicated or having zero training.

It's not, and no one claimed it is. And if you want to play that game, play it somewhere else.


5.samadhi

Oct 17, 2012, 8:42 PM
Post #59 of 102 (776 views)
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In reply to:
But I am still having a very hard time seeing how having a camera is as dangerous as being intoxicated or having zero training.
hahahahahaha

hahaha

what? ShockedSly


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 17, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #60 of 102 (772 views)
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Re: [billvon] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[reply="trafficdiver"]
So if the young crowd wants to skip this AFF Malarkey and go right for the freeflying, the older folks should just sit back and say, good luck?
[reply="bill"]
In such a case, would you advise people to just make the best of it, and put your efforts into learning how to skydive safely after a few beers? Rather than trying to alienate them into doing what you want?
Both of these statements are essentially saying "if you think it's okay to jump with a camera early because people have done it successfully, then you would think it is okay to [jump after a few beers / jump without training]." At least, the implication was clearly that my logic was as flawed as advocating people jump in such conditions.

Thanks for pointing me to those incidents. I see how cameras have been linked to a lot of annoyances, but most of those could have easily been prevented with a little coaching to instill a greater appreciation that the camera is second to the skydive.





Btw, it was said earlier that one can't just choose to ignore true advice just because of a sour delivery. I never said one should. However, "Argumentation 101" would affirm that the only way to reach an opposing audience is to first show that you genuinely understand or appreciate their position. Otherwise, the subconscious tendency is to assign minimal value to anything you say. Anyone who is able past the bitterness and condescension and absorb a cogent argument is an exception, not the rule.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:34 AM
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Quote:
Btw, it was said earlier that one can't just choose to ignore true advice just because of a sour delivery. I never said one should. However, "Argumentation 101" would affirm that the only way to reach an opposing audience is to first show that you genuinely understand or appreciate their position. Otherwise, the subconscious tendency is to assign minimal value to anything you say. Anyone who is able past the bitterness and condescension and absorb a cogent argument is an exception, not the rule.

Well then Einstein, you've finally said something that makes sense.

Hard lesson, if you want to skydive and live, you need to be an exception to a bunch of 'rules' we have out in the general population these days. Do you really think that this is a sport for 'average' people? Do you see success in skydiving and living on the top of the bell curve as going together? I sure don't, and most of the successful, talented jumpers I know are also unusally good at most other things they do. These folks are certainly not 'normal', and if you would catagorize yourself as such, you should be very weary of proceeding in the sport.

It might seem like sunshine a butterflies right now, but if you keep jumping you stand a very good chance of being put into a very challenging situation where your very survival will depend on your quick and accurate response to a problem. A skydive goes from 'fun' to 'deadly' in about one second, and if you're not preparred to hang with that change and react correctly and promptly, hang up your rig now.

That aside, the irony of 'you' is hard to believe. Bill (and myself) came right out and said it, you are the problem here. You are the reason that you get the responses and attitude you're getting.

You want to know why you get sour delivery? Because some of us have been delivering these messages for a decade (or more) and listening to the 'know it all' responses from the new jumpers all along. I take my time and knowledge to try and help someone, and they tell me why I'm wrong and what I've spent 17 years learning doesn't apply to them. How do you think I should react? The frist time it happens in year one? The 25th time is happens in year 3? The 50 th time it happens in year 5? Do really expect me (or anyone) to 'suffer fools lightly' for the rest of my life?

You had a chance to state your thoughts, and were given sound advice about some errors in your thinking. You want to talk about 'catching more flies with honey', where was the honey in your resposne? When much more experienced jumpers tried to help you and give you some good advice, did you accpet it humbly and in such a way that would encourge them to help you further, or did you throw it in their face why they were wrong (so you thought) and tell them they were just behind the times?

In addition to being 'a part of the problenm', you are the one who should heed your own advice. Why don't you watch what you say, and make sure that it's done in a way to encourage the other party to keep talking and keep giving advice. Like it or not, you're the FNG (fucking new guy), and I (we) am the one who's been around the block and holds 'the keys to the kingdom'. Given that, how about you think twice about your delivery, and if what you're saying isn't met with continued good advice, you need to change your attitude and approach.

"What's my name? Fuck you, that's my name"


(This post was edited by davelepka on Oct 18, 2012, 5:36 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 18, 2012, 8:03 AM
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In reply to:
I have also heard several of them mention the educational value

And what - exactly, "educational value" do you think, wearing even a small-format, POV camera, actually provides? Enlighten me.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 18, 2012, 8:21 AM
Post #63 of 102 (720 views)
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>And what - exactly, "educational value" do you think, wearing even a small-format,
>POV camera, actually provides?

It can help educate people who watch their Youtube videos. There are people unaware of how cool they are.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 3:21 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I have also heard several of them mention the educational value

And what - exactly, "educational value" do you think, wearing even a small-format, POV camera, actually provides? Enlighten me.

Seeing even 5 seconds of crappy footage of yourself from another silly newb jumper still llustrates a more concrete picture of potential areas of improvement for most than the longest discussion. That goes doubly so when the person wearing the camera shouldn't be paying enough attention you to note every detail of your position and orientation.

Dave, I am not surprised any by the hostility here. Expressing different perspectives on the internet usually goes like this. More personal discourse is generally far more pleasant. Still, the incidents perfectly exemplify my original point that a little sincere education could do a lot of good. Otherwise, it is like seeing someone just cleared for solos making general newbie mistakes and then ruling that AFF should last 100 jumps because new skydivers are too dangerous. Helping newer jumpers understand those things before they turn into big issues is how skydivers make it past 20 jumps in the first place. Basically, with every other aspect of skydiving, you have to show people what they are doing wrong and how they could do it better.

My first few pack jobs were obviously pretty messy, and I got a lot of great advice to help clean them up. None of those people ever said "you don't have any idea what you're doing so you should not even try to pack your own rig," even though Id bet they take packing more seriously than wearing a camera. Insfead, they stopped me and gave some pointers on how to avoid problems before they happened, and they still do that and I still ask them to. Just the same, if you see someone still fiddling with a ghetto-rigged camera 5 minutes before exit altitude, try to emphasize that the camera isn't what the jump is about, and help them understand that there is still a lot to worry about. If the camera isn't ready then, ask if they would leave it in the plane and sort it out on the ground before their next jump.

That kind of lesson would sink much deeper and be far more lasting than a condescending headshake that they will just ignore any time you aren't around.

I don't know a whole lot about all the intricacies of skydiving, but I did dedicate several years of my life to understanding how people learn, how the mind responds to different teaching stimuli, and generally the kind of circumstances that lead to undesireable decisions and behaviors. And I guarantee the students would be more responsive to the above approach ("I see that is a distraction / snag risk right now. Why don't you hang it up for this jump and we'll figure out a better solution back on the ground?") than the condescending "you clearly don't know anything you need to know for this, so just give up" that seems to be your preferred method of delivery.


(This post was edited by Lindenwood on Oct 18, 2012, 3:57 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 18, 2012, 4:00 PM
Post #65 of 102 (652 views)
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Quote:
Helping new jumpers understand those things before they turn into big issues is how skydivers make it past 20 jumps in the first place.

I wonder how many thousand jumpers in the world have made it past 20 jumps?.

I wonder who helped them get there?.

No doubt some of the arrogant old farts who post on here have done their share. Hell I've only taken a thousand or so past that point.

I'm gonna have to get my act together and improve my delivery.......no doubt I could do better.....


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2012, 4:56 PM
Post #66 of 102 (639 views)
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Quote:
Dave, I am not surprised any by the hostility here. Expressing different perspectives on the internet usually goes like this. More personal discourse is generally far more pleasant. Still, the incidents perfectly exemplify my original point that a little sincere education could do a lot of good. Otherwise, it is like seeing someone just cleared for solos making general newbie mistakes and then ruling that AFF should last 100 jumps because new skydivers are too dangerous. Helping newer jumpers understand those things before they turn into big issues is how skydivers make it past 20 jumps in the first place. Basically, with every other aspect of skydiving, you have to show people what they are doing wrong and how they could do it better.

My first few pack jobs were obviously pretty messy, and I got a lot of great advice to help clean them up. None of those people ever said "you don't have any idea what you're doing so you should not even try to pack your own rig," even though Id bet they take packing more seriously than wearing a camera. Insfead, they stopped me and gave some pointers on how to avoid problems before they happened, and they still do that and I still ask them to. Just the same, if you see someone still fiddling with a ghetto-rigged camera 5 minutes before exit altitude, try to emphasize that the camera isn't what the jump is about, and help them understand that there is still a lot to worry about. If the camera isn't ready then, ask if they would leave it in the plane and sort it out on the ground before their next jump.

That kind of lesson would sink much deeper and be far more lasting than a condescending headshake that they will just ignore any time you aren't around.

I don't know a whole lot about all the intricacies of skydiving, but I did dedicate several years of my life to understanding how people learn, how the mind responds to different teaching stimuli, and generally the kind of circumstances that lead to undesireable decisions and behaviors. And I guarantee the students would be more responsive to the above approach ("I see that is a distraction / snag risk right now. Why don't you hang it up for this jump and we'll figure out a better solution back on the ground?") than the condescending "you clearly don't know anything you need to know for this, so just give up" that seems to be your preferred method of delivery.

Once again, you have missed the point by a wide margin, and you prove it with your response.

In your case, sound advice was given in a friendly manner in the beginning. Less friendly advice is what you got after YOU continued to insist that you were correct about the issue. The very reason you get the attitude that you do is because you continued to insist that you were right, despite much more experienced and informed jumpers telling you otherwise. Once you did that, you immediately pigeon-holed yourself into being another know-it-all newbie, and in turn were treated as such.

You continue to point out what everyone else is doign wrong with their approach or delivery, but the real problem is you and your attitude. At the end of the day, what I'm saying is correct but not delivered in the correct manner (by your standards). What you are saying is incorrect, but maybe delivered in a more friendly manner. We're coming at it from opposite ends, but no matter which way you slice it, I'm right and that's the most important factor when it comes to skydiving.

Packing? Did you turn to those people who tried to help you and tell them that your way was right, and their view was old and outdated? I'm betting no, my guess is that you greatfully accepted the help that was offered, and paid close attention to what they said. Imagine the response you would have gotten here if you had treated those who tried to help you on the camera issue with the same attitude and respect.


excaza  (C License)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #67 of 102 (623 views)
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In reply to:
Seeing even 5 seconds of crappy footage of yourself from another silly newb jumper still llustrates a more concrete picture of potential areas of improvement for most than the longest discussion. That goes doubly so when the person wearing the camera shouldn't be paying enough attention you to note every detail of your position and orientation.
Know what else does this? Jumping with experienced fliers. You'd get far better footage and far better advice and the most it would cost you is a jump ticket.

In reply to:
None of those people ever said "you don't have any idea what you're doing so you should not even try to pack your own rig,"
What even? This is a terrible analogy. Are you sitting there telling them your trashpack is superior? It'll open, what's there to be afraid of?


(This post was edited by excaza on Oct 18, 2012, 5:23 PM)


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:21 PM
Post #68 of 102 (621 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

When I received packing advice, they approached me in the manner I said was better: "here is what you are doing wrong. Here is how you can do it better." In fact, I have received asked for a crap ton of advice that was delivered in this manner, even when the problem being corrected could have had far more direct consequences. In other areas of life, especially working with students, this has been far and away the most successful method of passing along advice.

My recommendation / request was to follow the lead I posted from the other thread, which follows the exact same pattern: "here are some things you might do wrong. Here are some ways to prevent them."

How often do you approach new jumpers and ther cameras using this approach? I


excaza  (C License)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:26 PM
Post #69 of 102 (612 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's what you're doing wrong: You're not listening.

Here's how you can do it better: Listen. Cut it out with the pedagogical rambling.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #70 of 102 (605 views)
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Excaza, it was a perfect analogy.

They saw me doing something that could be dangerous. Their first approach was to point out things I was or could end up doing wrong, and offer ways to make it safer / better.

I have experienced this approach by experienced jumpers giving me every aspect of skydiving advice.

Alternatively, when cameras are involved, the preferred initial approach seems to instead be "you're too stupid to even try this without killing everyone on the load.Take it off now." My question from the VERY beginning was simply why this the case.


excaza  (C License)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:40 PM
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In reply to:
Alternatively, when cameras are involved, the preferred initial approach seems to instead be "you're too stupid to even try this without killing everyone on the load.Take it off now."
Stop being a drama queen. It has nothing to do with intelligence. The issue is experience, and that's exactly what everyone has said.

In reply to:
My question from the VERY beginning was simply why this the case.
No it was not. Your very first statement was that cameras aren't as dangerous as everyone says. You stated this as a fact and there was no question anywhere in your post. This is markedly different from your packing analogy; you were looking for advice from the get-go because you knew your packing was awful. A more 'perfect' analogy to what you've been saying is exactly what I presented.


(This post was edited by excaza on Oct 18, 2012, 5:41 PM)


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 5:48 PM
Post #72 of 102 (599 views)
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In reply to:
Here's what you're doing wrong: You're not listening.

Specifically what, exactly, did I say was incorrect? I never said cameras weren't a potential distraction. I never said there weren't potential entanglement risks. I never even once said or even implied that those risks do not apply to me.

I just asked why the approach to correcting or minimizing these camera-related risks is so drastically different than the much more positive and extremely effective initial delivery chosen for every other aspect of skydiving advice?


excaza  (C License)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:01 PM
Post #73 of 102 (589 views)
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In reply to:
Specifically what, exactly, did I say was incorrect? I never said cameras weren't a potential distraction. I never said there weren't potential entanglement risks.
It's nice that you're conjuring this argument for me. I'm not going to play that game, sorry.

In reply to:
I never even once said or even implied that those risks do not apply to me.
I never said you did. You are, however, putting a significant amount of effort into downplaying those risks with statements like "I don't see a whole rash of deaths" and "holy fear of cameras." You know exactly what you're doing, and it's more than whining about the mean old farts telling you you're not experienced enough to fly a camera yet. If your goal is honestly about safety, you'd have a much different attitude than what you're displaying.


(This post was edited by excaza on Oct 18, 2012, 6:01 PM)


5.samadhi

Oct 18, 2012, 6:09 PM
Post #74 of 102 (581 views)
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In reply to:
Excaza, it was a perfect analogy.

They saw me doing something that could be dangerous. Their first approach was to point out things I was or could end up doing wrong, and offer ways to make it safer / better.

I have experienced this approach by experienced jumpers giving me every aspect of skydiving advice.

Alternatively, when cameras are involved, the preferred initial approach seems to instead be "you're too stupid to even try this without killing everyone on the load.Take it off now." My question from the VERY beginning was simply why this the case.
my advice is this:
listen to jumpers with more experience than you with activities as dangerous as skydiving. It pays well to be conservative...if they are wrong and you get to 200-300 jumps and start flying camera and realize that you could have jumped on it sooner...well you havent really lost much. If they are right however, you will have gained a whole lot of safety for those 150 jumps you were planning to shoot video on.

Believe me I was in your shoes a few years ago when I started skydiving and contemplated cameras. I waited and I was thankful once I did start jumping camera around 300 skydives when I realized how complicated it is and how much it adds to the skydive.

peace!


costanza  (B 38742)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:20 PM
Post #75 of 102 (576 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Seeing even 5 seconds of crappy footage of yourself from another silly newb jumper still llustrates a more concrete picture of potential areas of improvement for most than the longest discussion. That goes doubly so when the person wearing the camera shouldn't be paying enough attention you to note every detail of your position and orientation.
Know what else does this? Jumping with experienced fliers. You'd get far better footage and far better advice and the most it would cost you is a jump ticket.

In reply to:
None of those people ever said "you don't have any idea what you're doing so you should not even try to pack your own rig,"
What even? This is a terrible analogy. Are you sitting there telling them your trashpack is superior? It'll open, what's there to be afraid of?

I have disagree with you linwood, and agree with excaza on this one. i'll give you two examples. first, i taught myself how to snowboard. it's not hard, done in a day for new people. just take your time and figure it out. was i able to get down the mountain? sure. was i doing it as confidently and as well as i could have? nope. a one hour lesson corrected many of my learned errors. you can only learn so much from watching something. you won't get that nuance.

to parallel your 5 seconds comment, seeing 5 seconds is great! i'd be super excited, and tell everyone and their mother. but you know what? without any sort of proper instruction or mentorship, you have no idea how to improve, because you have no idea where you started from. you need to have that transition of knowledge.

another example i'll put out there - how i learned how to fly in a wind tunnel. i sat there in the waiting section for 3-4 flights ahead of me, and then a retired sergeant major looked at me and said 'go.' that was the depth of my instruction - one word. when it was time to learn how to fly military equipment he said 'put this on and get back in.' the first time i sort of figured it out. i gave them some good laughs. the next time i went in he was there to coach me. i figured out what to do with my arms, my legs, etc., but there were subtle nuances that I would not have known without his guidance.

in fact, a direct contradiction to your statement, some of those first flights i was in there alone, and have to figure out how to fly on my own. i developed some bad body position habits I carry to this day. so, no, those 5 seconds of video do not provide you with any sort of metric with which to gauge your success or failure. if that were the case, we would all be jumping cameras, in wingsuit flocks, on jump 10.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:33 PM
Post #76 of 102 (978 views)
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In reply to:
If your goal is honestly about safety, you'd have a much different attitude than what you're displaying.

My goal was to question why this particular area of safety advice is consistently delivered so much more negatively than nearly every other aspect of safety . Questioning the approach and completely disregarding the underlying belief are entirely different.

And I do wholeheartedly believe that the risks of wearing a camera after a good discussion are definitely lower than the risks of incorrectly doing many other standard aspects of skydiving. However, the approach to solving those other problems seems so much more personable and positive than the approach to educating new jumpers about cameras. Compare reactions to the idea of newer jumpers using cameras, and reactions to newer jumpers doing other dangerous stuff that newer jumpers tend to do (like messy packing, improper tracking, pulling a little low to get that last manuever or dock, bouncing off each other on exit, etc). The former is consistently so much more negative that it makes one wonder about some exceptional aversion to it.

Some of the reactions just make it seem as if a newer jumper with a camera is as taboo and inevitably deadly as someone trying hook turns straight out of training. Compared to those reactions, you are exactly right that I am downplaying the risks.

Would you disagree that a new jumper with a carefully set-up camera* and an instilled appreciation for the secondary nature of the camera to the skydive** is less dangerous than a newer jumper trying to hook turn, free fly, pull low, or do larger group dives?

*By this, I mean someone explained the snag hazards and helped recomment some safer mounts and orientations.

**And again, by this, I mean someone spent even just 5 minutes giving them an appreciation for how cameras can be distracting and how to avoid that.


Tuna-Salad  (C 38765)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:35 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm new a camera flyer (a year or so) doing 4 way so I'll take a stab at this one

"My DZ requires a B license (which I have), and I know that USPA recommends a C license to fly camera. I'm really eager to hear any advice you may have that goes beyond 'get your C license'. "

Get the C license first and get used to jumping with people doing RW until you can fly reasonably well (meaning that you can go and do what you want without having to think about it).

Gear? Learn to fly first then worry about gear.. from my experience gear entanglements although serious are really the least of your worries during a skydive...

things like premature deployments or someone coming in hot and taking you out .. keeping track of who is where until the formation is built.. being in position to get the shot and not block anyone from getting to their slot.. The list goes on and on.. then add wings which is whole different flying experience...

There is so much I learned the hard way and much I've learned from experience and most of it to be things that were never even considered when I got into camera..

Last but not least as much as you try to tell yourself "ill just turn the camera on and forget" .. it doesn't work that way.. just my $0.02 and nowhere near as valuable as most of the previous replies I'm sure.


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #78 of 102 (967 views)
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Here's one of my camera stories from before I knew how dangerous it was.

Skydive Fort Wayne is the 182 dropzone I started at, and at the time of this story the only other place I had jumped at was the Richmond boogie. I had maybe 175 jumps, so that means around 40 of those were "just wearing a camera to record my jumps" jumps. Larry, Brad, and I, had this great idea for a 3 way that would look cool on video. We were going to build an open accordion with me in the middle, but on my back. I went out on the step facing the rear of the plane, gave the other two dudes a count, left, and they dove down to me. That was the plan anyway. So there I was, waiting for them to dock on me (they were pretty close too), when I remembered we didn't go all the way up, we had only went to 5,000 feet (give or take a couple hundred). I immediately rolled over to my belly, pooped my pants, then pulled. The other two apparently had lost altitude awareness also. They got turned enough so they weren't facing each other and they pulled. It was a good thing this was a 182 dropzone, the spot was perfect, we had opened right over the landing area. I was the highest because I pulled first, and I was jumping a Monarch 215 (just like an original Sabre), Larry was just a little below me with his 155 Monarch, and Brad was the lowest with his 169 Safire 2. When we got back to the hangar I looked at my Neptune to see the opening altitude. It's a good thing none of us had an AAD at the time, we probably would've all had two out situations to deal with. I forget the exit altitude exactly, I think it was 5,300'. We had 24 seconds of freefall with an opening altitude of 900 feet.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #79 of 102 (967 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When I received packing advice, they approached me in the manner I said was better: "here is what you are doing wrong. Here is how you can do it better."

Well, for staters when it comes to flying a camera with low jump numbers, the correct advice would be not to do it.

Packing is not a good comparison because a pack job is required for every skydive, and a camera is not. Packing is also something that is commonly practiced by new jumpers, and is a requirement for obtaining an A license. No skydive requitres a camera, and no skydiver is ever required to fly a camera.

Let me try and say this the same way I've said it three times already - the problem here is your attitude toward the sound, friendly advice you did recieve.

You did not like what you heard, and so you ignored the sound, friendly advice that was given to you, and insisted that your thought process was correct. In responding this way to sound, friendly advice, you put yourself forth as an asshole. It shouldn't be a surprise to you then, when people treat you or talk to you like you're an asshole. (I'm not saying that you are one, just that you come across as one, and in turn are treated like one)


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:53 PM
Post #80 of 102 (963 views)
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Re: [costanza] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, and Id absolutely agree that a coached jump with a brief and debrief is ten times better than footage itself without discussion. I definitely agree that trying to learn something yourself is anywhere near as effective as doing it with a professional. For example, I am a pretty competitive shooter and started off self-taught, but improved significantly with a few short private sessions with a professional. Because of that, anyone who asks me about gun advice also gets a recommendation for professional instruction.

All I meant to say is that a fun jump with crappy video of yourself from other jumpers' POV still provides more opportunity for constructive feedback than just their non-professional verbal ireport of what happened.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 18, 2012, 6:57 PM
Post #81 of 102 (966 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave, those are all actually very reasonable points :).


Tuna-Salad  (C 38765)

Oct 18, 2012, 7:03 PM
Post #82 of 102 (965 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

I was and probably still am that guy on some points Linden like you are being now..

The biggest point you are missing in all of this... Stop talking and read.. listen more than speak. It will get you far in this sport and its taken me 5 years to begin to figure it out. I'm not telling you to shut up or go away.. I'm saying take the advice given and run with it, stop trying to validate points.. just listen to the people.


monkycndo  (D License)

Oct 18, 2012, 7:24 PM
Post #83 of 102 (957 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Here's what you're doing wrong: You're not listening.

Specifically what, exactly, did I say was incorrect? I never said cameras weren't a potential distraction. I never said there weren't potential entanglement risks. I never even once said or even implied that those risks do not apply to me.

I just asked why the approach to correcting or minimizing these camera-related risks is so drastically different than the much more positive and extremely effective initial delivery chosen for every other aspect of skydiving advice?


What you did say was,


Quote:
The better option is to accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks

So, let me see if I get your point.

You feel that the experienced old farts with many more jumps than these inexperienced jumpers should fall in line with the "newer crowd" and just disregard why the SIM has the list of things that a jumper should have prior to jumping a camera. And these experienced and wise jumpers should actually condone or even assist the newer crowd bypass these steps even though there is plenty of evidence doing so is a less than smart idea.

How did I do?

Yes, methodology does make a difference in training/educating. Assisting someone to improve is almost always received well and appreciated. Not nearly so much when being told they shouldn't do something that other people can. But if you step back and look at it from the old fart's perspective, after gently telling the umteeth member of the "newer crowd" about the SIM and that putting a camera on their head at XX jumps is not a sound idea, and basically being told "hey old fart, I know what I am doing. I just turn it on and forget about it, I only use it to document my jumps", said antiques get tired and might use a different approach.

I have been training and coaching for a few years myself, in both skydiving and work. I am not above learning from anyone, no matter their limited experience level, if they can give me a new method of getting the point across to someone. So I ask a favor. Could you assist me with a way to help this "newer crowd" understand that the SIM does actually apply to them? Because using a soothing voice to explain, yet, once again, that they don't fully grasp that they don't know what they don't know sure the hell doesn't seem to be working.Unsure

I'm all ears.Smile


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 18, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #84 of 102 (956 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seeing even 5 seconds of crappy footage of yourself from another silly newb jumper still llustrates a more concrete picture of potential areas of improvement for most than the longest discussion. That goes doubly so when the person wearing the camera shouldn't be paying enough attention you to note every detail of your position and orientation.

That statement is so incorrect, that it is (practically) laughable. Yet, you espouse it here as if it is fact. It is not, and this assertion is, well - just plain, simply wrong. Others I see since this posting, have already (at least tried to) explain it to you, but you clearly do not seem willing, or receptive, to listen.

You may not take this the right way, but ...I sincerely hope that you are in reality here - actually nothing but a troll. In which case I will say bravo. You have at least trolled well.


rhanold  (D License)

Oct 18, 2012, 7:42 PM
Post #85 of 102 (949 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Specifically what, exactly, did I say was incorrect? I never said cameras weren't a potential distraction. I never said there weren't potential entanglement risks. I never even once said or even implied that those risks do not apply to me.

This strikes me as a little vague. If I may ask some clarifying questions:

Does the above statement mean you agree that cameras are a distraction, that they are an entanglement risk, and that these risks do apply to you?


Tuna-Salad  (C 38765)

Oct 18, 2012, 7:43 PM
Post #86 of 102 (946 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been training and coaching for a few years myself, in both skydiving and work. I am not above learning from anyone, no matter their limited experience level, if they can give me a new method of getting the point across to someone. So I ask a favor. Could you assist me with a way to help this "newer crowd" understand that the SIM does actually apply to them? Because using a soothing voice to explain, yet, once again, that they don't fully grasp that they don't know what they don't know sure the hell doesn't seem to be working.

I'm all ears.


+1


sinjin  (A 210530)

Oct 19, 2012, 1:11 AM
Post #87 of 102 (915 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

lindenwood meet sangi. good luck


excaza  (C License)

Oct 19, 2012, 4:08 AM
Post #88 of 102 (904 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would you disagree that a new jumper with a carefully set-up camera* and an instilled appreciation for the secondary nature of the camera to the skydive** is less dangerous than a newer jumper trying to hook turn, free fly, pull low, or do larger group dives?
I would absolutely disagree. This is a very intellectually dishonest argument. There is no fuzzy logic going on here, 'less' dangerous is still dangerous, and a low experienced jumper gains nothing from the increased risk.

In reply to:
**And again, by this, I mean someone spent even just 5 minutes giving them an appreciation for how cameras can be distracting and how to avoid that.
Talking at people is not going to make the camera less distracting. You stick a camera on them and they're going to fly differently. You can't magic experience onto someone, no matter how hard you try.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 19, 2012, 4:43 AM
Post #89 of 102 (897 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would you disagree that a new jumper with a carefully set-up camera* and an instilled appreciation for the secondary nature of the camera to the skydive** is less dangerous than a newer jumper trying to hook turn, free fly, pull low, or do larger group dives?

Ok, now let's move back to the issue at hand. I'll make a comparison that most people old enough to skydive can relate to.

Let's consider texting and driving. It's an issue that's popular in the media these days for obvious reasons, texting is a distraction to a driver, much in the same way that a camera can be a distraction to a skydiver.

So let's be realistic, we all know there are 'some' people who are capable of texting and driving with no real loss in safety. Of course the number of people who are actually capable of doing this safely, and the number of people who 'think' they can do it safely are two very different things, but that's another story.

Would your guess as to who could possible safely text and drive include a 16 year old (or really any driver with less than a year or two on the road)? Let's say you had to make a guess one way or the other, and then send someone into traffic while they were texting, would you place your bet on a a new driver, or on a more seasoned driver?

Let's even imagine that you have a young driver and an 'old fart'. The young driver is going to be much more familiar with texting and the phone in general, while the 'old fart' is going to be more familiar with driving, so if you have to 'pick your poison', which would you prefer, a good driver trying to text, or a good texter trying to drive? (That last comparison is a poor example, but it's a poor example in my favor. Even an older jumper not as familiar with cameras is not the same as an older driver not familiar with texting because working a camera for skydiving involves one sequence of operations to power up and activate the camera, where tetxing requires different operations with each message).

Either way, you can see my point. The skydiving is the more dangerous part of the activity, so first you become a good, safe, experienced skydiver, THEN you add a camera to the mix. Knowing how to work the camera ahead of time, or even being trained how to jump with the camera does not chnage the fact that the skydive is the damgerous part, and does not make the skydive any less dynamic or risky.

In any case, the whole notion of being able to trained to skydive with a camera is dependant on the trainee already being a good, safe, and experienced skydiver. Just like I can't teach to to text and drive if you don't already know how to drive (meaning you're an accomplished driver, ready to add tasks to your driving 'workload'), you can't reasonably expect to teach someone to skydive with a camera unless they already know how to skydive.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Oct 19, 2012, 4:45 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 19, 2012, 7:44 AM
Post #90 of 102 (865 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

>They saw me doing something that could be dangerous. Their first approach was to
>point out things I was or could end up doing wrong, and offer ways to make it safer /
>better.

What did they do after you spent an hour complaining that you really were doing it right, and they were attacking you, and they don't understand modern skydivers, and all your friends do it the same way? After you explained that they should just accept how new jumpers pack and not be assholes about it.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 19, 2012, 7:45 AM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 19, 2012, 4:31 PM
Post #91 of 102 (821 views)
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Re: [billvon] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Hahahaha!!! Well played.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 20, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #92 of 102 (758 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


All I meant to say is that a fun jump with crappy video of yourself from other jumpers' POV still provides more opportunity for constructive feedback than just their non-professional verbal ireport of what happened.

We've all seen that video... sky, ground, sky, ground, sky, ground. Not a lot to learn from there?

Or, find an experienced camera flyer and ask him/her along on your next jump. Most will be happy to come along. I even try to do this on my coin when possible. They'll capture footage you can learn from and you'll be proud to post on YouTube.
Take this opportunity to ask this "experienced" camera flyer about your future flying a camera. My guess is, you'll once again have an opportunity to learn. When you have the experience to handle camera flying, start out slow and seek out more help.

When I started jumping camera, I sought out a guy with over 10,000 camera jumps. I bugged him with questions for over a year. I still seek opportunities to learn from these people. You should do the same, but I'd highly recommend you leave the attitude at home.

I hope this advice was touchy-feely enough for you.

Oh, and the packing analogy…. Layout and start packing your reserve parachute and see what kind of advice you get. But, be warned, it will NOT be “TOUCHY-FEELY”.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Oct 21, 2012, 9:49 PM
Post #93 of 102 (704 views)
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Re: [rhanold] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does the above statement mean you agree that cameras are a distraction, that they are an entanglement risk, and that these risks do apply to you?
Yup! Like I said, objectively questioning the approach and compleltely disregarding the sentiment are two entirely different things.

In reply to:
Quote:
Helping new jumpers understand those things before they turn into big issues is how skydivers make it past 20 jumps in the first place.

I wonder how many thousand jumpers in the world have made it past 20 jumps?.

I wonder who helped them get there?.

No doubt some of the arrogant old farts who post on here have done their share.

That was exactly my point.



I think the texting while driving example is pretty good, though having a radio while driving might be more accurate in terms of how much attention it does (or doesn't) require, no?

And I think where I was originally going was that skydiving itself isn't a requirement: we only do it for the enjoyment. We find ways to mitigate the risks, but we still have all decided that our enjoyment outweighs these risks. I suppose it can be argued that adding a few risks to the million we already have can fall anywhere on the spectrum from incredibly stupid to just another day in extreme sports. It seems the issue is defining the manageability of any added risks, and that can vary widely depending on both the attempted activity and the individual's skill, experience, and mindset.


And Bill, like I said, I have asked more questions and been more receptive to advice than easily 99% of jumpers out there. But, I am sure you imagine me as some know-it all hotshot, spouting off at everything that disrupts my dream of being the next GoPro Hero, and there is probably nothing I could say in the internet to change that. Still, maybe we'll meet in person some day, and I'd imagine we'll get along just fine ;) .


yoink

Oct 22, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #94 of 102 (664 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I think the texting while driving example is pretty good, though having a radio while driving might be more accurate in terms of how much attention it does (or doesn't) require, no?

Agggh!... NO! Why do you seem to have this absolute need to correct everyone, even on subjects you know nothing about? It's irritating as hell.

Try to get this into your head, because you're driving people nuts (You've even made BillVon hand out an internet bollocking.. I don't think I've EVER seen that before) - You have ZERO idea of how much attention wearing a camera takes. None. Zilch. Zip.
Any judgement you may have on it is simply made up.

You're taking advice from people who have decades worth of time in the sport and going 'OK, I see what you're saying but I think..."
and it doesn't matter what you think at this point. You have no knowledge that's worth basing a judgement on because you don't have the experience, and the sooner you start to understand that exceptionally simple fact, the safer you'll be.

Let me ask you this. If you saw a low-time jumper at your dropzone who was approached by an extremely experienced swooper who said 'Hey dude. Your flying is really sketchy. You're going to kill someone if you don't back off some,' and the newer jumper replied 'Thanks, but I think I'll be fine. I know my limits', would you think that's a good answer?

Would you want to be in the air or on the plane with someone who's demonstrating that attitude? After all, it might be you they take out...


Quote:
And Bill, like I said, I have asked more questions and been more receptive to advice than easily 99% of jumpers out there.

Asking questions of experienced people to further your knowledge is great! It should help you to have a long and safe skydiving career.
Asking questions and then discounting the answers because you don't agree (despite your lack of knowledge on the subject) is displaying stupendous arrogance and is a pointless exercise in self justification.
Don't kid yourself - asking questions is only useful if you do something with the answers...


(This post was edited by yoink on Oct 22, 2012, 8:51 AM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Oct 22, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #95 of 102 (656 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh, and the packing analogy…. Layout and start packing your reserve parachute and see what kind of advice you get. But, be warned, it will NOT be “TOUCHY-FEELY”.

I'd watch just to see them struggle. Maybe I'll even point out all the things they're doing wrong or that could kill them.Laugh


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Oct 22, 2012, 11:30 AM
Post #96 of 102 (621 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyI was thankful once I did start jumping camera around 300 skydives when I realized how complicated it is and how much it adds to the skydive.
What do you find about jumping with a camera that is so complicated?


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Oct 22, 2012, 12:19 PM
Post #97 of 102 (595 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

There really isn't anything that complicated about jumping a camera. Some people on here get all worked up when a 100 jump wonder straps one on. The 200 rule really doesn't apply across the board.


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Oct 22, 2012, 1:28 PM
Post #98 of 102 (578 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The Contour has a laser pointer that shows you that the camera is turned

the gopro is more "friends eyes'" friendly though.


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Oct 22, 2012, 1:39 PM
Post #99 of 102 (570 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

dude....you have 19 jumps, youre not even qualified to sign a log book yet let alone give reasonable advice about something in which you have no experience. now focus more on learning how to change a closing loop and what happens when you stick your legs out, than telling people with hundreds or thousands more jumps than you what the proper practice should be.


yoink

Oct 22, 2012, 6:15 PM
Post #100 of 102 (526 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There really isn't anything that complicated about jumping a camera. Some people on here get all worked up when a 100 jump wonder straps one on. The 200 rule really doesn't apply across the board.

MAYBE there are exceptions... there usually are to any situation. The problem is that once you've made one exception, everyone thinks that they're one. That's why posts or even opinions from experienced jumpers like yours are both profoundly unhelpful, and profoundly ignorant of skydiving as a larger community. You set a precedent that you dont' give a shit about defending and maybe several months from now some newbie DGIT will come across your post and use it as justification for doing something they're not ready for, and they'll get in trouble.

Rules, or guidelines if you prefer, have to be set for the lowest denominator - the commonly least competent person. Or are you OK with a few people a year killing themselves and others because they were jumping a camera before they were ready?
What's the number you're comfortable with?

How about this? We try to change it for 2 years - a trial period. Anyone over 50 jumps can wear one, and you can tell me in 2 years time if you think the benefit has been worth the cost...

Fortunately, this thread has moved beyond a simple camera issue, and is (in my opinion) far more valuable to a new jumper as a lesson on how NOT to solicit advice.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 22, 2012, 7:50 PM
Post #101 of 102 (255 views)
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Re: [yoink] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
MAYBE there are exceptions... there usually are to any situation. The problem is that once you've made one exception, everyone thinks that they're one.

No, the problem is that you don't know who is an exception, and who is not, until after you have strapped a camera to their head to 'see what happens', and that's the furthest thing from making a prudent and informed decision about who should be allowed to jump a camera.

The simple facts are thus - we do know of several ways, proven by real world examples, that a camera can be a distraction to a jumper in the plane, in freefall, under canopy, and can also present a distraction to other jumpers in the air with the camera flyer. We also know that there is no penalty to limiting newer jumpers from jumping a camera until they have built up a body or experience thus that the odds are in their favor that they are able to deal with the known distractions.

Given the above, the only prudent, informed decision is to have a limitation in place. The only harm it could do is to the egos of those jumpers who do not yet meet the qualifications, and quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

I see it like this, I have 'invested' 17 years, and countless hours, dollars, blood, sweat and tears in skydiving, and as such, my 'share' of the sport is worth more than a kid with 90 jumps who thinks they know their ass from a hole in the ground (they don't). So when issues like this come down to what would make me happy, that being a given number of jumps required before jumping a camera, and what would make the 'new guy' happy, that being just doing whatever they want, my 'vote' holds far more water than the new guy.

If someone wants to buy my shares from me for $50k, then we can talk about new guys doing what they think is right. Until such time, I'll stick with my 'shares' giving me the voting power to have the upper hand, and get what makes me happy (which, in the end, is simply that we make safe, prudent and informed decisions about how we 'shape' the sport).


(This post was edited by davelepka on Oct 22, 2012, 7:51 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 1:17 AM
Post #102 of 102 (235 views)
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Re: [ridestrong] Preparing to camera fly [In reply to] Can't Post

>What do you find about jumping with a camera that is so complicated?

It takes away attention from an activity than can spare almost none. Walk around with a video camera and you're just going to trip or walk into people; the results of that level of loss of attention in skydiving is a lot worse.



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