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n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack

 


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #1 of 34 (3526 views)
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n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack Can't Post

was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Sep 30, 2012, 9:00 AM
Post #2 of 34 (3510 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

a) Being a noob to skydiving is no excuse for being too damn lazy to do a SEARCH
b) Flat packing is an older method that works better for F111 canopies or larger wings (Tandem/Student).
c) Flat packing takes up significantly more space and usually will result in people bitching (and righfully so).

d) if you would have done a search, these are the relevant results you would come up with :

http://www.dropzone.com/...view_flat;post=38060
http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=2727408


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 30, 2012, 9:03 AM
Post #3 of 34 (3508 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?

There are various versions, often called the same thing when they are not the same thing. A roll pack is different than a flat pack, but they are often used interchangeably. There is also the factory pack, which is definitely not a roll pack, is often the same as what people mean when they say flat pack, and is very often how reserves are packed.

ZP canopies are difficult to handle with these packing methods


ctrph8  (D License)

Sep 30, 2012, 11:51 AM
Post #4 of 34 (3440 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

A good rule of thumb is to watch how the more experienced people handle their gear. If you don't see many people flat packing, that's a clue. Watch the packers. Later, offer beer or some cash to someone who is both good at packing and good at teaching. They may or may not accept anything for it but it is good form. The next step is to start packing at home in your living room over and over. You'll figure out your sticking points. Then do it under adult supervision.

Also, rely less on the internet and more on local talent to get you where you need to be with your learning.




In reply to:
was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 30, 2012, 11:57 AM
Post #5 of 34 (3436 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

It is also good to realize that what used to be called a factory pack gives much the same result as a propack, except in varying degrees that the tail is wrapped around, and the degree to which the folds between the line groups are separated to the respective sides.


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Sep 30, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #6 of 34 (3410 views)
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Re: [likestojump] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

one of those threads is 11 years old, the other is 5 years old...I was looking for current opinions about current practices...thank you so much for your cheerful help. have a nice day.


(This post was edited by Lazarus_762 on Sep 30, 2012, 12:45 PM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Sep 30, 2012, 12:40 PM
Post #7 of 34 (3405 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?

Why do you say it "looks easier"?

Pro-packing is simpler, faster and less effort (easier).
Depending on your personal technique, it can be as simple as count the nose out, give it a good, solid shake and then wrap the tail (yes, I know people who do this).
Personally I flake all three "gaps", but I know people who only do the first two and leave the C-D untouched.

It's a lot less work than crawling around on the floor.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 30, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #8 of 34 (3404 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Flat packing allows you to have an easier control to keep lines centered while PRO packing is a symetrical way of packing. Both methods are OK. The advantage of the PRO pack is that it takes less room. For many years I have been packing main and reserve flat pack. Since 2003 I use the PRO packing for both.


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Sep 30, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #9 of 34 (3396 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

sitting on the couch with an adult beverage in my hand, the side packing looked easier and more straight-forward...apparently looks can be deceiving. Having never had the opportunity to try my hand at packing, I was just wondering what experienced packers thought about the 2 methods. The general consensus seems to be just as you say, PRO is easier, faster, simpler...when I start learning how to pack, I'm sure I'll understand better. Thanks for your help, I appreciate it. Smile


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 30, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #10 of 34 (3385 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

If you want to do PRO packing, use first a hook to hold the canopy lines high and the canopy hanging free. That way you do the flaking being in front of the canopy (opposite to the container) and have a better view of what you are doing. Have somebody to teach you for few packings and who knows the purpose of each step and can explain it. When used to it and comfortable, transfer if you want on holding the lines on your shoulder.
There is so many people who are packing without knowing what they are doing and why. They cannot be blamed since they just got bad teaching without explanation. Just the type DO AS I SHOW YOU.


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Sep 30, 2012, 1:15 PM
Post #11 of 34 (3381 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks!


peek  (D 8884)

Oct 1, 2012, 4:04 AM
Post #12 of 34 (3274 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?

Because it is no longer "cool".

Here is some info:
http://www.pcprg.com/packing.htm

I know, the pictures are poor. I have been meaning to take better ones for a long time now.


Bip  (D 573)

Oct 1, 2012, 4:57 AM
Post #13 of 34 (3244 views)
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Re: [peek] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a flat packer. I have never had a cutaway. Coincidence? I think not. Wink


jhh166  (B License)

Oct 1, 2012, 5:32 AM
Post #14 of 34 (3226 views)
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Re: n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

I had some army SF guys that only knew how to flat pack ask me if I would pack for them one day and they mentioned they did not like the flat pack because it opened with a 90 degree off heading opening because of the way the canopy was placed in the bag. I never flat packed before and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement?


mark  (D 6108)

Oct 1, 2012, 5:42 AM
Post #15 of 34 (3218 views)
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Re: [jhh166] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had some army SF guys that only knew how to flat pack ask me if I would pack for them one day and they mentioned they did not like the flat pack because it opened with a 90 degree off heading opening because of the way the canopy was placed in the bag. I never flat packed before and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement?

No. Just before the canopy goes in the bag, the nose is down, the tail is on top. If you run the lines at that point, they're as straight as in a pro-pack, no 90-degree twists.

Mark


jhh166  (B License)

Oct 1, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #16 of 34 (3215 views)
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Re: [mark] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I had some army SF guys that only knew how to flat pack ask me if I would pack for them one day and they mentioned they did not like the flat pack because it opened with a 90 degree off heading opening because of the way the canopy was placed in the bag. I never flat packed before and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement?

No. Just before the canopy goes in the bag, the nose is down, the tail is on top. If you run the lines at that point, they're as straight as in a pro-pack, no 90-degree twists.

Mark

Thanks Mark.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Oct 1, 2012, 7:15 AM
Post #17 of 34 (3173 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

What is most interesting about your question is that it is about organizing the canopy rather than bagging the canopy. The vast majority of discussions here about packing seem to be about bagging the canopy: Folding all and bagging, OR folding top and bagging it then stuffing bottom, OR folding bottom and bagging it then stuffing top, OR Psycho/Precision pacing (rolling), OR Wolmari. These discussions of "how to get it in the bag" almost always include the following link:

http://www.precision.aero/packing/mvc-002v.mpg

P.S. The reason that you are asking about organizing and not bagging is that you haven't tried to pack yet. Bagging is what often drives noobs to tears... not organizing the canopy. There is nothing quite like struggling in the heat for 10 minutes to get the canopy in the bag without success.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 1, 2012, 7:24 AM
Post #18 of 34 (3162 views)
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Re: [Bip] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am a flat packer. I have never had a cutaway. Coincidence? I think not.

Think again. I'm a Pro packer, and have packed every one of my own jumps plus another 1000+ pack jobs for others, and I have never had or packed a cutaway.

It's the packer, not the type of pack job that makes the difference. Flat pack, roll pack, pro pack, or psycho pack have all been used successfully for countless numbers of jumps, if done properly they are all reliable pack jobs.

Proper gear maintenance and assembly is the other factor in preventing malfunctions. Keep gear in-spec and using it as it was designed will go a long way towards preventing malfunctions.


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 1, 2012, 7:28 AM
Post #19 of 34 (3160 views)
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Re: [mark] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I had some army SF guys that only knew how to flat pack ask me if I would pack for them one day and they mentioned they did not like the flat pack because it opened with a 90 degree off heading opening because of the way the canopy was placed in the bag. I never flat packed before and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement?

No. Just before the canopy goes in the bag, the nose is down, the tail is on top. If you run the lines at that point, they're as straight as in a pro-pack, no 90-degree twists.

Mark

Back when Mighty Macs were tandem mains and TI's packed for themselves...we'd flat pack them like we use to do with big accuracy canopies.

Grab the packing tabs an shake it straight, roll the nose then 'flop' the front and back inward toward the center, in bag width folds pulling the slider up right before the last flop. Then S fold the stack into the bag, band up the lines and done.

No cocooning the tail, THAT method of 'flat packing' would almost always give you a 90 on opening...but it was quick to do, and always gave slow openings.

325 Mighty Mac with a split bag and you could be closing the tandem rig in less than 5 minutes.

I use to see a lot of accuri guys pack that way and I think the Knights did too for a while back in the 80's...I think it may have worn the line sets out quicker than the 'standard' method, at least it seemed to.

Also...back when parachutes were rectangular and large 'Psycho Packing' was a little different.
Similar to the above description except instead of the flop-fold you would just roll the rose & tail to the center, no bag just a single stow 'frap-strap' holding it together. Coil the lined in the pack tray and S fold the rolled up canopy on top...3 minutes tops!

If ya were 1st out of the Beech and hummed it down, you could be packed up at the Peas before the last group landed! Cool


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 1, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #20 of 34 (3149 views)
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Re: [davelepka] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the packer, not the type of pack job that makes the difference.

In reply to:

When the Excalibur first came out the manual required PRO packing, which no one was doing at my DZ.

Tough learning it from the little 3 inch B&W pics, I packed several line-overs until somebody at the Nationals showed me 'pull the stabilizers OUTSIDE the lines' Shocked Crazy


...Only cutaways I've had since then were a split top-skin and a broken riser.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Oct 1, 2012, 7:46 AM
Post #21 of 34 (3154 views)
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Re: [likestojump] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
b) Flat packing is an older method that works better for F111 canopies or larger wings (Tandem/Student).
c) Flat packing takes up significantly more space and usually will result in people bitching (and righfully so).
reply]

As one who flat packed for 1/2 my time in the sport (22 years), I'd agree with b/c above.

For me, flat packing was much easier to see, step-by-step what was going on and where everything was at... Worked very well for F-111 (more porus fabric) and, if done correctly* ended up with the same configuration on the floor as PRO packing prior to putting it in the bag.

*if you use the technique that splits each cell set as you make the stack... not how I was taught, but can be done... most folks I knew didn't do that, but they got good results anyway.

Personally I found that PRO packing was the easier technique when dealing with ZP canopies (at least up to Tandems where I found either worked well).

Some tips that may help learning either technique, but especially with PRO packing (if you have the option)...

1 - get a canopy that has different colored cells. Ideally no two cells the same color next to each other.

2 - best option - center cell a unique color

3 - mark the line attach tabs with the line letter**. ('A' for the A line attach points... etc...) remember there will be the same number as cells +1.

**Talk to YOUR rigger before marking anything on a canopy. Both to make sure its not distructive, and second to make sure you mark them correctly.

4 - you can learn/practice on a canopy that helps you see what's going on (as described above) even if its not the one you're going to jump. Start learning when you're not itching to jump. Use a canopy that's easy to see, take your time, ask questions, verify your work with an instructor or rigger. THEN move on to the gear you're thinking of jumping.

Just my $.02.

JW


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Oct 1, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #22 of 34 (3127 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?

It takes 2-3X as much floor space which will make you unpopular at the dropzone or have you packing outside where it's hot and the sun will reduce your canopy life.


sundevil777  (D License)

Oct 1, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #23 of 34 (3055 views)
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Re: [Bip] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am a flat packer. I have never had a cutaway. Coincidence? I think not. Wink

I used to think that flat packing (the version that used to be called factory pack) was immune from a line over. Then I had a line over. Now that I have an all ZP canopy, a factory pack is not practical.


ELLIOTT  (A License)

Oct 1, 2012, 11:44 PM
Post #24 of 34 (2980 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Why do PD put packing tabs on their canopy,s other than for flat packing ?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 2, 2012, 4:35 AM
Post #25 of 34 (2945 views)
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Re: [ELLIOTT] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why do PD put packing tabs on their canopy,s other than for flat packing ?

Exactly which models/sizes still come with packing tabs?


ELLIOTT  (A License)

Oct 2, 2012, 6:13 AM
Post #26 of 34 (815 views)
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Re: [davelepka] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I know for a fact that my Pulse 170-190 has them.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Oct 2, 2012, 6:21 AM
Post #27 of 34 (809 views)
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Re: [ELLIOTT] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

My Sabre2 170 has them too. I don't know why.

It does make it a lot easier to lay it on it's side for a line check.


CarpeDiem3  (D License)

Oct 2, 2012, 6:57 AM
Post #28 of 34 (790 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It takes 2-3X as much floor space

It doesn't have to. I watch a couple of old farts do it, and they keep the ends folded over to reduce space usage, and even then, it's only for about a minute while they get it stacked. Once it's stacked, it takes no more space than a pro pack.

The people wasting all the space are the inconsiderate folks who spread their gear out in the packing area, and then disappear for an hour or two, tying up all that space that is needed by others.

And since it's impolite to mess with someone else's gear, you hesitate to pick it up and push it aside to get it out of the way.


(This post was edited by CarpeDiem3 on Oct 2, 2012, 7:02 AM)


melanie91  (C License)

Oct 2, 2012, 8:11 AM
Post #29 of 34 (755 views)
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Re: [davelepka] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

My old spectre 150 had packing tabs.
I always wondered why since it was recommended to pro pack the canopy.


peek  (D 8884)

Oct 3, 2012, 7:26 AM
Post #30 of 34 (672 views)
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Re: [davelepka] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Exactly which models/sizes still come with packing tabs?


http://www.pcprg.com/stiltabs.gif

(Hint: I'm messin' with you Dave.)


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Dec 18, 2012, 5:06 PM
Post #31 of 34 (567 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
snip...

P.S. The reason that you are asking about organizing and not bagging is that you haven't tried to pack yet. Bagging is what often drives noobs to tears... not organizing the canopy. There is nothing quite like struggling in the heat for 10 minutes to get the canopy in the bag without success.

indeed, you are correct. I took a packing class, did a few pack jobs under supervision, and the toughest, most frustrating part was trying to pull the bag around the stack without the canopy squirting out all over hell and back...experience seems to be the only answer to that obstacle, but that will come.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 20, 2012, 8:23 AM
Post #32 of 34 (430 views)
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Re: [davelepka] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Why do PD put packing tabs on their canopy,s other than for flat packing ?

Exactly which models/sizes still come with packing tabs?

My Sabre2 97 has packing tabs. When my new tandem rig arrived without them, I sent it back and made them put them on.

My personal rule of thumb is that if you cannot pick the entire canopy up off the ground with the slider up and hold it at your waist to PRO pack it, then just side pack it. For me personally, that's 120 square feet and smaller (to PRO) and everything else gets side packed. It's much less of a pain in the ass. I was forced to PRO pack my tandems on a hook in Hawaii; I hated it, but there was no room to pack them otherwise (I was jumping on Kauai).

Teaching students to PRO pack big-ass student canopies is DUMB, DUMB, DUMB in my opinion. Far too complicated, way too messy, and absolutely not necessary for the A-License requirement.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, MMPCI, PRO, S&TA


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 20, 2012, 8:30 AM
Post #33 of 34 (428 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone have a problem with following manufacturer's recommendations...for those who have them, that is.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Dec 20, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #34 of 34 (420 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack [In reply to] Can't Post

I think teaching a student to flat pack first helps them to better understand the canopy. It's very easy to see the nose, A,B,C,D, brake lines and tail of the canopy when it laid out on the floor on its side.
I was thought to flat pack while I was still jumping student canopies then once I got my A I was thought to pro pack.



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