Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Blunt object strikes

 

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Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Sep 29, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #26 of 68 (1812 views)
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Re: [DougH] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry that was not directed AT you, just answered your question and made a statement saying its not right that the first person to get on scene try to play god and decide the fate of a a patient based off of their wants and feelings if they were in that situation.


stratostar  (Student)

Sep 29, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #27 of 68 (1793 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ATTN skydivers: you cannot resuscitate someone who has hit an object with high force. high speed impact+no pulse = death. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (cpr) will not help.


Really.... Try telling that to this guy & his family and those did the CPR on him.

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 29, 2012, 12:52 PM
Post #28 of 68 (1770 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Regardless, who are you or I to be the judge of letting a person die

A friend of mine had to make the decision to take the love of her life off life support after he was brought back at the scene of a skydiving accident. She has informed those who jump with her the most that she does not want to be resuscitated in the event of an accident.

Something to think about. If you don't want to be resuscitated for whatever reason, you need to let your friends and family know now. You may want to wear something while jumping that states this as well (MedicAlert bracelet perhaps), since your friends may not be the first responders.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Sep 29, 2012, 9:57 PM
Post #29 of 68 (1710 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

The motorcycle guy doesnt sound like blunt force.. more like roadrash... You guys all make good points. Your right Sparky, Blunt force can be mistaken. I guess if it makes people feel hope than why not. Hook I wish I could meet Digby. I love beagles. Mine is a Papillon. Hes super fluffy.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Sep 29, 2012, 10:09 PM
Post #30 of 68 (1705 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

Anvil, your patients had pulses right? Were not on the same page. If the person has a pulse. resuscitate. If not, don't. accept the fact that your friend is dead. Move on.


Bealio  (B 36988)

Sep 30, 2012, 1:52 AM
Post #31 of 68 (1682 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would you perform CPR on someone with a pulse?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 30, 2012, 2:20 AM
Post #32 of 68 (1677 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Regardless, who are you or I to be the judge of letting a person die

A friend of mine had to make the decision to take the love of her life off life support after he was brought back at the scene of a skydiving accident. She has informed those who jump with her the most that she does not want to be resuscitated in the event of an accident.

Something to think about. If you don't want to be resuscitated for whatever reason, you need to let your friends and family know now. You may want to wear something while jumping that states this as well (MedicAlert bracelet perhaps), since your friends may not be the first responders.

In the event your friend does have an incident I would think that EMS would be called. When they arrive this will initiate treatment unless there is a valid ôDo Not Resuscitateö statement for the victim on scene. A verbal statement to family and friends is not valid.
In California you can down load a DSR form and leave it with DZ office. See attachment

Sparky
Attachments: DNRForm.doc (144 KB)


rifleman  (Student)

Sep 30, 2012, 7:50 AM
Post #33 of 68 (1634 views)
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Re: [Bealio] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why would you perform CPR on someone with a pulse?

^ This ^ +1

Performing CPR on someone with a pulse (heart beating) could cause their heart to stop. I was taught that if someone's heart stops, you perform CPR (after dealing with the airway and any bleeding) and you carry on until someone takes over or a medical professional tells you to stop.

I usually carry a small first aid kit in my jump bag which includes several british military wound dressings (packed in plastic lined pouches - good for sucking chest wounds), hemastop, triangular bandage and a newspaper (useful for improvising a support collar when used with the triangular bandage) plus the normal assortment of plasters, disinfecting wipes and burn gel sheets.


adamhildreth  (C 110471)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:20 AM
Post #34 of 68 (1625 views)
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Re: [rifleman] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

STOP!!! This is not what the official advice is to non trained medics.

If someone is unconscious and not breathing (do not check for a pulse) you should carry out Hand Only CPR - carry on Hand Only CPR until a trained medical professional arrives.

Do not provide advice that contradicts official guidelines for non-trained medics - you could very well lead to someones life NOT being saved.

Carry on with those chest compression's until someone with appropriate experience tells you to stop!! You can and will save someone's life with this.


CarpeDiem3  (D License)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:21 AM
Post #35 of 68 (1625 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you cannot resuscitate someone who has hit an object with high force. high speed impact+no pulse = death.
...
I have a pup named Timothy. He is my son/;I love hm more thaqnk anything.l

How much force is "high force"? How blunt is a "blunt object". What if impact was a glancing blow? What if the object had some "give" to it instead of being rock hard? What if you didn't directly see the impact? What if you're wrong about judging how fast and how hard they hit? What if you're wrong about there being no pulse?

If your pup, which you love, suffered such an accident, would you do nothing to try and save him?

It doesn't hurt to try.


Periapt  (D 3017)

Sep 30, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #36 of 68 (1595 views)
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Re: [CarpeDiem3] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
you cannot resuscitate someone who has hit an object with high force. high speed impact+no pulse = death.
...
I have a pup named Timothy. He is my son/;I love hm more thaqnk anything.l

How much force is "high force"? How blunt is a "blunt object". What if impact was a glancing blow? What if the object had some "give" to it instead of being rock hard? What if you didn't directly see the impact? What if you're wrong about judging how fast and how hard they hit? What if you're wrong about there being no pulse?

If your pup, which you love, suffered such an accident, would you do nothing to try and save him?

It doesn't hurt to try.

This has been an interesting thread, largely because both sides have made good points. FlyingPortagee is partially correct in saying that that a pulseless vicitm of trauma is dead. Trauma surgeons will tell you,"Dead trauma is Dead!" But what is "Dead"?

Lack of a palpable pulse is not necessarily dead if there is a reversible reason for it, such as loss of blood or mechanical interference that prevents the heart from filling with blood (usually fluid or gas where it does not belong, compressing the heart so it cannot fill with blood).

It is also true that attempting CPR on an uresponsive, pulseless victim of blunt trauma may buy them some time, IF there is a reversible cause. And if they are truely dead, you can't hurt them by trying.

While there are documented cases of people surviving falling from great altitude, they are rare and involve factors that served to increase the distance over which they decelerated from terminal velocity. The simple fact is that a right angle impact with normal solid ground at 120 mph is seriously bad news. If the crater is a foot deep, the AVERAGE deceleration would be about 450G and if it is 6" it would be twice that. Survival in such a case is remote, at best.

On the other hand, the blunt trauma associated with misadventures involving high performance parachutes and low altitude canopy collisions or cutaways may well be survivable and CPR, if the victim is unresponsive and pulseless, is definitely appropriate.

Just remember that there may be spinal injuries and don't move the victim unless ABSOLUTELY necessary for safety reasons. If you MUST move them, immobilize the cervical spine to the best of your ability, perform CPR when you are out of immediate danger, pray, and, when the medics arrive, let them do their job.

For those interested in my credentials, I am a Board-certified Emergency Physician with 30+ years of experience including time in a Level-2 Trauma Center.

Ralph Johnson MD

PS: I wholeheartedly endorse learning CPR and basic Life Support and first aid. I have no doubt that most of you already have done so, but for those that have not, do it ASAP. You never know when your ability may be the only thing standing between another human being and the grave.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Sep 30, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #37 of 68 (1591 views)
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Re: [mahonie10] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You don't know for sure unless you try. I would hope someone would try everything they could to revive a fallen friend. I would at least, instead of just saying "damn dude....you dead"

This.

I've done CPR on a friend (not skydiving related). It didn't work and he's dead.
I seem to remember from class that CPR doesn't make any difference in the vast majority of cases, somewhere in the single digit percentages survive whatever the accident was.

I'm still going to do whatever I can to give someone any increased chance of surviving.

I'm not just going to stand there and say "He's dead, there's no point in trying." I want to be able to tell any friends or family that I did everything I could and that I didn't give up.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Sep 30, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #38 of 68 (1584 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

Periapt wins


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 30, 2012, 5:13 PM
Post #39 of 68 (1547 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Periapt wins

It's not a fucking game.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Sep 30, 2012, 5:52 PM
Post #40 of 68 (1539 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the stupidest thread I have ever read here. I hope you stay on the west coast. Be sure to tell everyone at your DZ to leave you alone if you ever frap in. I'd hate to see someone save you.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Sep 30, 2012, 6:24 PM
Post #41 of 68 (1556 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldnt want my good friend trying to save me if i was dead. It just adds to the post traumatic stress for those trying to save. If your dead your dead, cover them up. How long would you do CPR for? 2 minutes? 30 minutes? an hour? You could die in a car wreck tomorrow. That's life. People die. Not trying to hurt anyones feelings. I watched 5 of my comrades burned alive trapped in a bradley. the one that got out died later of 3rd degree burns. Does that mean I jump in to try and save them? I thought about it. I had nightmares for months of being burned alive. I still do.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Sep 30, 2012, 7:19 PM
Post #42 of 68 (1545 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool story dude. Now stfu go jump.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Sep 30, 2012, 7:24 PM
Post #43 of 68 (1538 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

Your right Mr. Polite. I tell myself that all the time. This was a stupid thread. If your buddys down and you want to try to save him, go for it. I'm not a bad guy I just have a strange outlook on life. I seriously need to STFU and jump. Thats it. Absofreekinlutely.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Sep 30, 2012, 7:30 PM
Post #44 of 68 (1533 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wouldnt want my good friend trying to save me if i was dead. It just adds to the post traumatic stress for those trying to save. If your dead your dead, cover them up. How long would you do CPR for? 2 minutes? 30 minutes? an hour? You could die in a car wreck tomorrow. That's life. People die. Not trying to hurt anyones feelings. I watched 5 of my comrades burned alive trapped in a bradley. the one that got out died later of 3rd degree burns. Does that mean I jump in to try and save them? I thought about it. I had nightmares for months of being burned alive. I still do.

So you want your friends and family to live with the question "Should we have done more?" or "Could we have saved him if we had tried to?"

I knew full well that I was probably wasting my time and energy doing CPR on my friend. I knew that it was probably hopeless.
But I wasn't going to stand there and do nothing but watch him die. I wasn't going to live with those questions.
And that was a help in dealing with my grief. I knew that I had done all that I could have done.

Not to minimize your pain in losing your comrades, but we aren't risking our lives in trying to save a gravely injured jumper. There's a big difference there.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Sep 30, 2012, 7:49 PM
Post #45 of 68 (1522 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

Wolf I love your dog what breed is it ? I think Mr. Polite summed it up perfectly . " STFU and jump" Brilliant. I want that on a t-shirt lol . STFU AND JUMP>


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:11 PM
Post #46 of 68 (1511 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had nightmares for months of being burned alive. I still do.

So that's what this is really about. Your PTSD.

Seek help or harden the fuck up. But don't come on here telling people to leave their mates to die.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:16 PM
Post #47 of 68 (1508 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wolf I love your dog what breed is it ? I think Mr. Polite summed it up perfectly . " STFU and jump" Brilliant. I want that on a t-shirt lol . STFU AND JUMP>

Half Yorkie, Half Toy Fox Terrier.

With a smattering of Obnoxious Little Toad and a bit of Pig Wink

I had to put him down two weeks ago. It sucked. I made a thread about it in Bonfire.


base283  (D 15343)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:18 PM
Post #48 of 68 (1507 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ATTN skydivers: you cannot resuscitate someone who has hit an object with high force. high speed impact+no pulse = death. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (cpr) will not help.

Not being a jerk i hope, but what if you changed the word "someone" to your "best friend"? A first aid responders task is to maintain the condition of the injured until med help gets there. Ahhhh, bro joe hit blunt object just now, got any green bottles?
take care,
space
Attachments: ABL-how-about-a-nice-cup-of-shut-the-fuck-up.jpg (46.6 KB)


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:21 PM
Post #49 of 68 (1504 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

I was medic and counselor. Hard infantry guys telling me " Doc, im going to take a bullet in the face" "i'm going to shoot myself n the head" STFU and jump" Thank you polite.


FlyingPortagee  (A 64429)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:33 PM
Post #50 of 68 (1497 views)
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Re: [FlyingPortagee] Blunt object strikes [In reply to] Can't Post

Im so sorry aabout your pup. pups are amazing creatures. Are you gettting another one? Me and my wife always say there should be a mourning period. I love my pup more than I love most people lol.


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