Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012

 

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Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #206 of 228 (1644 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

What is your theory then? Amongst all the questions I don't clearly understand what you have concluded.


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:08 PM
Post #207 of 228 (1626 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen video footage of the front 9-way breakoff which looked exactly to plan, and mirrored what we had practised and successfully executed >20 times in the sky over the preceding 4 days. Given the break-off trajectories of the two skydivers in question, it made news of the resultant collision quite surprising; why this happened is still somewhat of a mystery.

You can't know anything that myself, Simon, Omnia and John (amongst others) don't already know - and many more who have examined in detail the available information first hand.

edited to remove links to deleted argument


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 9, 2012, 4:05 PM)


pms07  (D 7571)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:10 PM
Post #208 of 228 (1622 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can confirm the breakoff of the front 9 way was absolutely NOT at 2500í, but rather at ~3500í as planned. I flew next to Irina all week and saw the breakoff although my group left at 4500í. There is some video of the incident jump online and I was also wearing a Go Pro. The video seems to support exactly what I and others have said.

I donít know about the average number of wingsuit jumps per participant overall and have no stats to further that discussion. But I donít believe anyone that knows the two jumpers involved in the incident would question their experience or qualification. And there appears to be no relationship between the overall experience level and the incident.

We know large formation jumps add an element of risk. We accept that risk when we sign on. But the Perris event organizers did an outstanding job in emphasizing large formation safety issues.

To help manage risk on bigways, people are pre-qualified to attend. Thatís also why we have intricate and higher altitude breakoff plans. Thatís why we ground practice those plans for what seems like hours and demand discipline in execution. Thatís why we listen to briefings for what seems like hours. Thatís why anyone that appears intent to vary from the breakoff plan or violate safety protocol is corrected immediatelyÖor maybe even ejected from the event. All that was part of the plan at the Perris event and the breakoff itself seemed well designed and executed.

In addition, Dan BC was hands-on involved in discussion of the breakoff plan, was in almost every team briefing, watched the ground practice of breakoff, and was in the landing area watching breakoff, patterns and landings for pretty much every jump of the event. Iíve never been to an event where there was a more experienced or better qualified individual focused on large formation safety issues with the organizers and team.

Honest question normiss: I donít understand your theory, what is it you actually think contributed to the accident?


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 9, 2012, 4:06 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #209 of 228 (1580 views)
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Re: [pms07] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

From the information I have been given, including some that are publicly saying it aint so Crazy.

The person that collided with the deceased was not current in wingies and used to practice jumps as a recurrency. If not - then that's gone.
Jumped a large wingsuit with a little canopy. Why? If not - then that's gone too.
That goes back to my asking about gear details - but as a group that was dismissed early on too.
Breakoff and/or opening was what altitude? This could impact her time to deal with a mal.
What could have contributed to the line twists?

It seems to me, based on all the information, that an off heading opening and/or line twists created the major issue...what can we look at to reduce that risk next time?

Break off?
Tracking?
Gear choices?

Are these really bad questions to ask?
It's odd why everyone thinks I have an agenda - clearly you don't know me personally.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:55 PM
Post #210 of 228 (1564 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Currency?

By the time of this jump, everyone on the load had done at least 20 wingsuit bigways in the previous 4 days. Most had attended the pre-camp so had done even more.

Breakoff? The videos showed that the 98 way, the 36-way and the 9-way staged breakoffs went as planned.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 9, 2012, 4:06 PM)


Skybear

Oct 9, 2012, 3:06 PM
Post #211 of 228 (1544 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The person that collided with the deceased was not current in wingies and used to practice jumps as a recurrency.

Not correct. This guy jumps at my home dropzone and I know him personally. He did over 500 jumps this year and has a total of somewhere around 3000. We did some wingsuit jumps together this year and he is definitely skilled enough for wingsuits as well as for bigways. He participated also in the 138-HD-record and had no safety issues there as far as I know.

As numerous people said the break-off plan was safe in planning and execution. I left at 4500 and was on the left wing of my break-off group. Therefore I had to watch the 9-way all the time to make sure that we stay clear. Nothing unusual there.

In my opinion the reason of the collision was simply an off-heading opening. Contributing factors were:
-choice of canopy/wingload
-everyone was a little exhausted after 4 days of jumping in the heat
-everyone tended to be in a relaxed mood as we had the record already
-the surviving jumper had a cold in the days before. Maybe this had some impact on his reaction speed, but this is speculation right now (to be clarified)
-plus some more if we all think long enough

This is all I know as facts and I won't do another post here in this forum. The way this discussion is led by some people shows a serious disrespect for the deceased. Please stop that and start trying to learn from it. Don't blame others if you can't be sure that you had made it better in the same situation.




Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 9, 2012, 4:19 PM
Post #213 of 228 (1461 views)
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Re: [Skybear] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know it's probably been posted but I just can't find it.

Will someone please post the canopy type and wingloading of the two jumpers involved?

.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #214 of 228 (1447 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Will someone please post the canopy type and wingloading of the two jumpers involved?

Per earlier posts, one canopy was a Crossfire 2 loaded at about 1.6-1.7. Other not known.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 9, 2012, 4:40 PM
Post #215 of 228 (1440 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:14 PM
Post #216 of 228 (1361 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

No-one has ever done this size of wingsuit formation before. It would certainly be acceptable on a RW or VRW formation of this size.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Oct 9, 2012, 11:23 PM
Post #217 of 228 (1244 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6+ ?

In my opinion (having maybe 150 WS jumps with the Crossfire2 as the main at a similar WL) - that is borderline dangerous for a "regular" skydive, and absolutely unacceptable for a WS bigway. (Part of a reason I jump square 7 cells for WS)


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 10, 2012, 1:20 AM
Post #218 of 228 (1217 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6+ ?

In my opinion (having maybe 150 WS jumps with the Crossfire2 as the main at a similar WL) - that is borderline dangerous for a "regular" skydive, and absolutely unacceptable for a WS bigway. (Part of a reason I jump square 7 cells for WS)

And you are perfectly entitled to that opinion.

Having jumped over 400 ws jumps and 800 total jumps on a crossfire loaded 1.5 including during this event, that has not been my experience, both in heading performance and behavior while and tendency to line twist.

In this incident it has been established that the crossfire opened on heading. At the most the loading can be questioned and I believe it is in on the high side of acceptable. Remember you want a large variety of wing loadings to facilitate people landing staggered.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 10, 2012, 7:09 AM
Post #219 of 228 (1085 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6+ ?

In my opinion (having maybe 150 WS jumps with the Crossfire2 as the main at a similar WL) - that is borderline dangerous for a "regular" skydive, and absolutely unacceptable for a WS bigway. (Part of a reason I jump square 7 cells for WS)

Many RW bigways specify an acceptable WL range. For example, the POPS record web site recommends as follows:

"We recommend a wing loading between 1.25 and 1.75 (min and max)"

I believe the TSR 168 way had a similar recommendation.

As an observer at the recent VRW 138 way record, I am quite sure than many participants had WL of 1.6+


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 10, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #220 of 228 (984 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In this incident it has been established that the crossfire opened on heading. At the most the loading can be questioned and I believe it is in on the high side of acceptable. Remember you want a large variety of wing loadings to facilitate people landing staggered.

Wouldn't this create a problem with people overtaking others in the pattern? Seems this would be equally dangerous, especially in a crowded pattern. ???


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 10, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #221 of 228 (975 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, but it allows for good choices to create good seperation. The same wing loading for all would force almost everyone to either sink or float all the way down. That is my understanding and what I saw happen in the landing pattern during this event from inside, and other big ways from the out side, but I am no big way expert.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 10, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #222 of 228 (891 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Wouldn't this create a problem with people overtaking others in the pattern?

If everyone opens at the same altitude, a wide variety of wing loadings results in staggered landings (assuming similar patterns.)

This is complicated by having differing breakoff and deployment altitudes. That results in some overtaking. Keeping the "legal" range narrow helps mitigate this since people can fly a bit more slowly (or more quickly) and avoid overtaking.


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 10, 2012, 11:50 AM
Post #223 of 228 (884 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In light of what bill Said, I should clarify by wide range I meant something like the 1.25-1.75 mentioned above for example. I guess wide is different for different people.


birdynamnam  (D 179)

Oct 10, 2012, 12:18 PM
Post #224 of 228 (860 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6+ ?

In my opinion (having maybe 150 WS jumps with the Crossfire2 as the main at a similar WL) - that is borderline dangerous for a "regular" skydive, and absolutely unacceptable for a WS bigway. (Part of a reason I jump square 7 cells for WS)

And you are perfectly entitled to that opinion.

Having jumped over 400 ws jumps and 800 total jumps on a crossfire loaded 1.5 including during this event, that has not been my experience, both in heading performance and behavior while and tendency to line twist.

In this incident it has been established that the crossfire opened on heading. At the most the loading can be questioned and I believe it is in on the high side of acceptable. Remember you want a large variety of wing loadings to facilitate people landing staggered.

I had 200+ WS jumps on a Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6, always on heading openings never a problem. Then suddenly I had two twist spin'ers that resulted in emerengcy procedure as I pulled that many G's that I could not get out of it. I switched to a Sabre2 loading it at 1.5. Twist no problems here. Even though that the Sabre2 opens off heading constantly, I think it is far safer to jump with than the Crossfire. Thing is when the Crossfire spins, it is violent, think about the vertical distance you will go in a spread out but still "stacked" formation of canopies. For me the way it reacts when twists occur is the reason I chose not to fly Crossfire anymore, I miss it though. But hey that a safety choice I did for myself and my wingsuit friends.


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 10, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #225 of 228 (777 views)
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Re: [birdynamnam] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose it's a matter of personal choice. I have had spinning and none spinning twists on the crossfire with the suit on and between my personal (successful) experience with the safety sleeves and how she handles I feel confident with my choice. But the crossfire in this incident did not twist. I would like to hear from anyone with info on Irina's canopy, as I believe I saw here someone said it did twist (?).


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