Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next page Last page  View All

miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #176 of 228 (1646 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

You are being really offensive. Is that on purpose? Whatever you think about the politics or skill sets involved surly you know we are all human beings trying to safely further a sport we all love. Please be respectful if you can.

Quote:
STILL no real details??

100 people on that jump, at least 9 people in the lead diamond KNOW some details of how long they took the mad skillz diamond leading the formation...

The leading 9way diamond broke off at 3.5k as planned.

Quote:
Was a language barrier an issue?

Was the other person in collision also a foreigner?

The other person speaks english as well as any american, I believe he is foreign though. As breakoff procedures seem to have been followed and little or no communication occured between jumpers I do not >think< language was an issue.

Quote:
Were the people on the jump qualified to make such a formation jump, or were they taking anybody willing to put a dress on?? (except for the ones they are politically at odds against anyway)

While I cannot honestly claim to know each and everyone of the 120 people (including those on the bench) well enough to answer that, while registering I and everyone else were asked about our experience and gear choices. Of the 40 or so I do know well enough all had the experience and gear to be there, IMO. At no point did I feel someone around me was making inexperienced choices. Both jumpers directly involved in the collision were very experienced with both wingsuiting and big ways.

Quote:
...or were they taking anybody willing to put a dress on?? (except for the ones they are politically at odds against anyway)

Politics are exciting at times but have nothing to do with this incident. Shame on you for bringing it up in this thread. Go play in the mud at the wingsuiting/general forum. Oh wait, you already are.

Quote:

I still believe simply writing this off to a big way risk of collision is the wrong attitude to take. That was but one link in this chain.

I agree all incidents have several issues leading up to them, and we should always try and uncover as many of them as possible. I hope I have answered some of your questions regarding the issues you have brought up as possibly contributing to this incident.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #177 of 228 (1643 views)
Shortcut
Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

"The leading 9way diamond broke off at 3.5k as planned."

I have been told by people that were part of the leading 9-way this is NOT true. Nor was that what was planned, agreed to, or done.
I have been told by a number of people the average experience on this jump was approx. 300 wingsuit jumps.


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:08 AM
Post #178 of 228 (1637 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

As for breakoff, that is the info I have. Perhaps it is wrong.

As for average experience I have no statistics but that sound wrong to me. At any rate both jumpers involved in this incident had significantly more experience then that, so the point is moot IMO.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #179 of 228 (1627 views)
Shortcut
Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Language - maybe, that's why I asked.
Breakoff at 2500?
Foolish.


rnicks  (A License)

Oct 8, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #180 of 228 (1580 views)
Shortcut
Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As for breakoff, that is the info I have. Perhaps it is wrong.

You are not wrong. As part of the 9 way, breakoff was at 3500, NOT 2500 and performed as we had practiced. I doubt the authenticity of normiss's statement that somebody from the 9 way told him different.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 8, 2012, 12:30 PM
Post #181 of 228 (1570 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rnicks] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Two people in that group claims otherwise, that's why I asked.
It would have a lot of influence on EP's.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 8, 2012, 1:18 PM)


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 8, 2012, 12:38 PM
Post #182 of 228 (1562 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Language - maybe, that's why I asked.
Breakoff at 2500?
Foolish.

I call BS on that.

A. That would never be a sensible plan. No organizer would plan for that.

B. There were multiple video angles in the area. While debriefing we were told breakoff was as planned and I see no reason for a cover up.

C. Robin posted above me as, she was inside the 9 way diamond.

D. All the video guys posted all the videos in skydivingphotography.com. Look at Noah Bhason's angle of the last jump, he follows the nine way and deploys above it shortly after it breaks off. The first wave of breakoff was planned and executed for 5.5. I was there. Eight second later the second breakoff wave occurs, symmetrically on both sides, so 4.5 breakoff went as planned. Eight second later, and no where near 15 second or so a 2k feet flight would last, the 9 way breaks off.


(This post was edited by miconar on Oct 8, 2012, 12:41 PM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 8, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #183 of 228 (1498 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Two people in that group claims otherwise, that's why I asked.
It would have a lot of influence on EP's.

I watched the 9 way breakoff in the dirt dive and in the air. I was in the group to breakoff before them and you better bet I wanted to know where they were.

They planned and did break off at 3500 so whoever is tell you otherwise either wasn't in that group or wasn't following the plan.

These 2 jumpers have more experience than many on the jump including non-wingsuit bigways. I know everyone wants to go after the experience level of the team but you are barking up the wrong tree.

What I learned from this.

- Nobody is untouchable by the hand of death. If you think you are wise up, you are kidding yourself.
- If you want to minimize your chances of injury and death in skydiving avoid bigways
- If you want to be 100% safe then stay home. I have even seen people plough into the viewing gallery so nowhere is safe. - Not at this event...!

I wanted to add. Language barrier would have been an issue. The deceased was in my plane so I spent a lot of time in briefings with her. She could converse in english for sure but in the heat of the moment I would be impressed if english came out of her mouth.


(This post was edited by WickedWingsuits on Oct 8, 2012, 1:58 PM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 8, 2012, 2:06 PM
Post #184 of 228 (1484 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"
I have been told by a number of people the average experience on this jump was approx. 300 wingsuit jumps.

Were you told that by an organizer with access to the forms people filled in?

I have heard a lot of the rumors and misinformation about how crazy unsafe this was because of the lack of experience. Except none of that seems to come from anyone that was actually there watching.

I was on the 68 way and let me tell you I was scared to death. I didn't think I would do another big way but I went to this one to be with my friends. This event was a totally different level compared to that of the past. Those that demonstrated ANY kind of safety issues were moved onto the bench.

I saw a guy make a mistake in front of me, get in the wrong slot and move across the formation in an unsafe manner. He wasn't on the next jump. I know of another jumper that had a bad exit...was on the bench the next jump.

Not only were there leading wingsuit organizers involved but DanBC played an obvious role. That might be one of the reasons this was on a totally different level from last time.

Was it safe? Hell no we were jumping from 5 planes. Was it as safe as possible. Yes, I believe it was. - Please don't quote only half of that statement anyone. Wink

A good team member died and the worst part of it is I think it was shit happens. That's tougher to swallow than something that can easily be fixed, in my opinion.

Edited to add: I think some people would not be comfortable breaking off at 3500. The organizers made it VERY clear in the team briefings that if someone needed to switch slots to either help in the approach or in the breakoff they could. The front 9 was given a chance to request a higher breakoff group if desired.


(This post was edited by WickedWingsuits on Oct 8, 2012, 2:07 PM)


omnia

Oct 8, 2012, 2:15 PM
Post #185 of 228 (1474 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Breakoff for 64 out of the 100 was at 5.5k (opening at 3.5k). 27 more people in the front 36 diamond broke off at 4.5k. Front 9, as stated before, broke off at 3.5k and had plenty of separation from the other groups.

As for why the people there haven't posted more...many of us broke off, flew, and landed away from the incident and did not see it happen. The only thing I do know is the video showed them breaking off away away from each other in straight lines, creating adequate separation between each other as well as the other flyers. There probably are individuals who know a bit more than that but have stayed out of this thread as they've seen it get filled with politics, false speculation, and insults.

I do not know the average experience level of wingsuiters at the event, but I am curious where you got the 300 figure?
Both individuals involved in the collision were very experienced.

EDITED TO ADD: Just for the sake of only stating facts in this thread, I remembered that the jump on which the incident occurred was a 98-way and not a 100-way as stated. 62 people broke off at 5.5k, rather than 64 on the 100 ways we did the previous day. Carry on...


(This post was edited by omnia on Oct 8, 2012, 7:59 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 8, 2012, 2:46 PM
Post #186 of 228 (1446 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Two people in that group claims otherwise, that's why I asked.

BS. Utter BS.

I led one of the 4.5k breakoff groups, and if you watch the video on the photography web site you'll see there's No F. way the 9-way waited until 2.5k after my group broke.

Whoever is behind the scenes feeding you information clearly has an agenda to push.


omnia

Oct 8, 2012, 4:33 PM
Post #187 of 228 (1373 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Two people in that group claims otherwise, that's why I asked.
It would have a lot of influence on EP's.

Where did you get this info from?
Did you personally hear this from them?


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:25 PM
Post #188 of 228 (1254 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been told by people that were part of the leading 9-way this is NOT true. Nor was that what was planned, agreed to, or done.
I have been told by a number of people the average experience on this jump was approx. 300 wingsuit jumps.

Mark, following the last few posts from you, in sequence, is quite bewildering. Here is a summary:

1) "Will somebody please come forward with details about the 9-way base breakoff? We have no details, we need details. Somebody please speak up."
2) [multiple members of the 9-way base speak up, inform you of when they broke off]
3) "Oh really? Because I heard otherwise, from other members of the base."

What are you trying to accomplish with this line of thought? Why claim to have no info, wait for actual named people to publicly give the info you "need," only to then claim that you do in fact have info already, which (a) conflicts with the info posted here by real people publicly and (b) comes from anonymous private sources? Is this some kind of weird bait and switch? If you're going to quote somebody, give their name. If not, leave them out of it. It's an insult to the people who are posting here under their real names, for you to call them liars because of your mysterious underground informants, especially when that act follows their graciously answering the questions which you were claiming to be ignorant on.


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #189 of 228 (1252 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been told by a number of people the average experience on this jump was approx. 300 wingsuit jumps.

I do not know if that is true or false, but I do know it's irrelevant.

What do the jump numbers of 103 other people have to do with the jump numbers of the 2 who collided?


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #190 of 228 (1250 views)
Shortcut
Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A. That would never be a sensible plan. No organizer would plan for that.

Nor would Dan BC allow anything close to that.

He watched a lot of the dirt dives (literally, he went into the field for a lot of them, where the breakoff altitudes were shouted over a bullhorn).
He watched the deployments from the LZ.
He watched just about every debrief video.


(This post was edited by The111 on Oct 8, 2012, 7:30 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 9, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #191 of 228 (1012 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The111] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

How many AAD fires did he watch?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #192 of 228 (1000 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Enough. If you have information on the dive you want to share, post it. If you want to snipe at people do so in another forum.




miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 9, 2012, 11:10 AM
Post #194 of 228 (912 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

This incident involved a properly planned, properly executed break off. Many eye witnesses were there, several stepped up over here including some from the actual 9 way you claim sucked it down, and there is video evidence available on line to support it.

This incident did not involve an AAD fire. Yes there was an unrelated near save where a jumper pulled his reserve low and the cutter fired after the reserve pull - loop was already out of the cutter.

post edited to remove argument with another poster


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 9, 2012, 4:02 PM)












michalm21  (Student)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #200 of 228 (758 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you fly wingsuits?
Serious question.


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Incidents

 


Search for (options)