Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012

 

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kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 3, 2012, 1:38 PM
Post #151 of 228 (3328 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I suspect some folks with "world record skillz" do not, in fact, posses said skillz.

They are failing on simple AND difficult breakoffs, packing, line stowing, canopy choice, exits, landings, navigation, and overall gear choice.

Doing nothing to correct these issues is not the proper response.

The videos do not support the claim that breakoffs were poorly executed. This incident does not appear to have anything whatsoever to do with the breakoff, exits, landings or navigation. Where are you getting your information? Whatever the source, it is incorrect.




lonedfx

Oct 4, 2012, 1:48 PM
Post #153 of 228 (2668 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In a traditional (non-full-flight) wingsuit deployment, one's arms are tucked close to one's chest (in order to collapse the burble for a cleaner deployment). This puts the fingers of one hand right at the place needed to grab a zipper and start unzipping as soon as you're pulled upright in the saddle.

And then if you happen to need to cutaway, you now have a (potentially massive) leg wing, and no arm wing, a very good recipe for flatspins. Given the propensity people have to try and get stable before opening their reserve (sometimes for an ungodly amount of time), I do not think this is always such a good thing. I have a few interesting videos on this very subject.

Not to mention that even though you feel really symmetrical when you do it, depending on the wingsuit and the canopy, it could still be a source of off-heading opening, if not outright instability if you don't have the experience to do that safely. Certainly I wouldn't recommend a student to do this.


lonedfx

Oct 4, 2012, 1:52 PM
Post #154 of 228 (2656 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.


(This post was edited by lonedfx on Oct 4, 2012, 1:53 PM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 4, 2012, 2:01 PM
Post #155 of 228 (2643 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

"Front zippers down" is quite an interesting report. I don't know many folks that undo the zippers on the front of their suits and certainly not with 100 other canopies in the sky. That would seem to be a non-essential habit.

Maybe it could pulled down in the wrap?

Was that from a first hand report?


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 4, 2012, 2:11 PM
Post #156 of 228 (2622 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In a traditional (non-full-flight) wingsuit deployment, one's arms are tucked close to one's chest (in order to collapse the burble for a cleaner deployment). This puts the fingers of one hand right at the place needed to grab a zipper and start unzipping as soon as you're pulled upright in the saddle.

And then if you happen to need to cutaway, you now have a (potentially massive) leg wing, and no arm wing, a very good recipe for flatspins. Given the propensity people have to try and get stable before opening their reserve (sometimes for an ungodly amount of time), I do not think this is always such a good thing. I have a few interesting videos on this very subject.

Not to mention that even though you feel really symmetrical when you do it, depending on the wingsuit and the canopy, it could still be a source of off-heading opening, if not outright instability if you don't have the experience to do that safely. Certainly I wouldn't recommend a student to do this.

1) I wouldn't recommend a wingsuit student do it either. But I also wouldn't recommend a student be present on a 100-way (which is what this thread is about).

2) I've had one of those cutaways, from a spinning malfunction on my back. Worked fine for me. Another reason to punch & pull quickly, as we teach in the AFF FJC...or to have an RSL. Best to not spend the rest of your life trying to get stable.

Regardless, none of this seems relevant to the incident at-hand, so if you'd like to continue the discussion, mind if we move it to the Wingsuit forum?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 4, 2012, 2:47 PM
Post #157 of 228 (2590 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

________________________________
I'm not sure what you are getting at. This is my post:
___________________________________

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Does anyone know how much communication there was between the two jumpers prior to the actual cutaway?

Any of us who have done CReW know how important it is to make certain both jumpers are ready for the cutaway unless everything is just happening too fast.

In other words was she ready for this cutaway?
_______________________________________________

So my question remains.

Does anyone know how much communication there was between the two jumpers prior to the actual cutaway?

In other words was she ready for this cutaway?

.


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 4, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #158 of 228 (2563 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And then if you happen to need to cutaway, you now have a (potentially massive) leg wing, and no arm wing, a very good recipe for flatspins.

The majority of cutaways on wingsuit jumps happen with unzipped arms, the rare exception may be a total mal. Think about it, the most common cutaway is line twists. If you have linetwists, you are most likely going to unzip and try to fix them. When you can't, you'll chop, and you will have unzipped arms at the time.

No big deal. Unzipping your arms early may contribute to stability as was earlier pointed out, but having your arms unzipped while cutting away is not a concern at all, or out of the ordinary.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 4, 2012, 4:52 PM
Post #159 of 228 (2498 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

What reports are you referring to? Do you have access to information that everyone else doesnít?

Sparky


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 4, 2012, 9:51 PM
Post #160 of 228 (2335 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Question on "what's a wingsuit instructor?" moved to the wingsuiting forum.


Darsia  (D License)

Oct 5, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #161 of 228 (2116 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Finally someone is mentioning the CReW-rules!

I agree that smaller canopies (they are faster, but also faster in any kind of movements) and bigways, especially the two in combination with eachother, are taking more risk. Put some wings between your arms and legs and you really have to know what you are doing! Besides of trusting yourself, you have to trust and rely on other skydivers, also underneath your canopy! It's important to know how to fly and behave underneath your canopy, when it's crowded (that can be hard after a succesful bigway, while the adrenaline is rushing through your body). Have a suitable canopy for your experience but also for the event and discipline! And it's important that you know how to handle when you have shit above your head (some beginners do have more experience in that, comparing to 3000+ jumpers with no reserve procedure at all) or when you are in shit, like with a canopy collission. And the chance of a collision is much higher when you are with more in the sky, so it's important to know how to handle and know the CReW-rules (wraps/entaglements/altitudes) in emergency!!!

What I have been reading, was her death the result of/after a collision, so in my opinion there should be more discusion how to handle in or after a collision (avoiding them is the best!!!) It also looked like she cutaway too low. In that case of the basics: if you think your canopy, at a low altitude, is no longer landable, just deploy your reserve without cutting away. Not ideal, but will give you a better chance of survival than trying to land an unlandable main or to cut-away at an altitude that your reserve can barely open or fly....!!! Unsure


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 5, 2012, 9:05 AM
Post #162 of 228 (2100 views)
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Re: [Darsia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the person you collided your canopy with was kind enough to cut away without communication and gives you a pretty little gift wrap situation, you just might not have to option to cutaway with sufficient altitude.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #163 of 228 (2043 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

What reports are you referring to? Do you have access to information that everyone else doesnít?

Sparky

See post #125, this thread:
Quote:
Irina's arms were apparently unzipped, and I'm told the body zips were down too so this isn't likely a relevant aspect.


Darsia  (D License)

Oct 5, 2012, 1:16 PM
Post #164 of 228 (1943 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I only got the Dutch version on paper here, but found some good advice about Canopy collisions in English:

http://parachutistonline.com/safety_training/safety_check/reacting-canopy-collision

http://www.apf.asn.au/Members/Information/Canopy-Collisions/default.aspx

http://www.skydive-center.net/safety.htm

According to me a good advise of the writer of the last link especially for formations (FS, FF, Wingsuit or whatever):

To summarise on the points for survival:

1)Everyone does CRW when your in the air with others - be aware of all those around you in the sky and donít assume because you see them that they have seen you.
2)Collisions are a reality and you should be prepared for one to happen to you. Have a plan.
When it happens , donít panic.
3)Be aware of you altitude and give yourself plenty of altitude to cutaway and deploy your reserve.
4)Experiment with your rear risers for quick avoidance manoeuvring

Hope everyone is taking lessons out of the recent canopy collisions wich have been leading to terrible injuries and deaths. It is my worst nightmare: flying happily underneath my canopy and being flown out of the air to an other world by an other canopy...

BSBD...Unsure


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 3:03 PM
Post #165 of 228 (1872 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

"Front zippers down" is quite an interesting report. I don't know many folks that undo the zippers on the front of their suits and certainly not with 100 other canopies in the sky. That would seem to be a non-essential habit.

Maybe it could pulled down in the wrap?

Was that from a first hand report?

Came from DSE's post #125, this thread.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 3:10 PM
Post #166 of 228 (1867 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumping out of a plane with 100 people is putting yourself at much higher risk...that's all there is to this mishap.

Your argument is silly and I think you know it. Swoop ponds are going away because of the death toll in swooping. More jumpers died under open canopies just last year then the total killed on all bigways.

Sparky
Mike, more people FLEW open canopies last year than participated in bigways. A bigway DOES have added risk, there's no denying it. Only about 10% of my RW jumps have been 100ways or bigger, yet fully half of the fatalities on jumps I've been on have been on 100+ way RW jumps. My canopy collision was on a RW bigway in 2007 (fortunately we didn't entangle or wrap).

No crossposting please.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 5, 2012, 10:01 PM)




lonedfx

Oct 6, 2012, 2:07 AM
Post #168 of 228 (1678 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

What reports are you referring to? Do you have access to information that everyone else doesnít?

I remember reading that but can't figure out where now so I'll just go ahead and retract it. I can't even remember if that was from the a mail or from the media so never mind. I'll just apologize and shut up now.


lonedfx

Oct 6, 2012, 2:32 AM
Post #169 of 228 (1670 views)
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Re: [The111] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The majority of cutaways on wingsuit jumps happen with unzipped arms, the rare exception may be a total mal. Think about it, the most common cutaway is line twists. If you have linetwists, you are most likely going to unzip and try to fix them. When you can't, you'll chop, and you will have unzipped arms at the time.

Hm, okay, I never had to unzip for line twists once in a few hundred go but my experience is probably not representative (very tame canopy under very light load).

In reply to:
No big deal.

It's not, as long as you punch & pull quickly, as LloydDobbler says. As he said also, we're getting off topic, it has nothing to do with the incident. My bad.


(This post was edited by lonedfx on Oct 6, 2012, 2:52 AM)


lonedfx

Oct 6, 2012, 2:39 AM
Post #170 of 228 (1668 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not sure what you are getting at. This is my post:
___________________________________

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

I simply misunderstood your sentence, I read "opening" instead of "collision" (i know...). It should make more sense now what I meant, and yes now I see it's irrelevant.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 6, 2012, 5:05 AM
Post #171 of 228 (1636 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm not sure what you are getting at. This is my post:
___________________________________

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

I simply misunderstood your sentence, I read "opening" instead of "collision" (i know...). It should make more sense now what I meant, and yes now I see it's irrelevant.

It happens. No worries.

.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 6, 2012, 6:57 PM
Post #172 of 228 (1465 views)
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Jumping out of a plane with 100 people is putting yourself at much higher risk...that's all there is to this mishap.

Your argument is silly and I think you know it. Swoop ponds are going away because of the death toll in swooping. More jumpers died under open canopies just last year then the total killed on all bigways.

Sparky

Mike, more people FLEW open canopies last year than participated in bigways. A bigway DOES have added risk, there's no denying it. Only about 10% of my RW jumps have been 100ways or bigger, yet fully half of the fatalities on jumps I've been on have been on 100+ way RW jumps. My canopy collision was on a RW bigway in 2007 (fortunately we didn't entangle or wrap).

No crossposting please.
John,

There is a big difference between flying an open canopy and dying under one. I was referring to his whine about swoop ponds going away. I agree that big ways do add more risk I canít come up with more than a hand full of fatalities on big ways. (100+) Last year, 2011, 31 jumpers died under good canopies. This was out of a total of 56. If you know of any big way deaths please let know.

Sparky


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 6, 2012, 9:30 PM)


freddysdaddy

Oct 7, 2012, 2:27 AM
Post #173 of 228 (1360 views)
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Re: Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any first hand infos about the collision itself? At that time, there were 100 other experienced jumpers nearby.
There must have been several ground cameras as well?
Any statement by the other person involved?

Seems to be very much speculation about this incident here.


RobertMBlevins

Oct 7, 2012, 10:06 PM
Post #174 of 228 (1052 views)
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Re: [TheBachelor] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Per her Facebook page :https://www.facebook.com/irina.sinitsina.1, she suffered a "Severe traumatic brain injury." (Translated from Russian). Blue Skies Magazine has a brief article about the incident, but there's nothing new there.

'Severe traumatic brain injury' usually means the victim is on complete life support and the only thing keeping them alive are machines. If you want to establish a fund for the family, encourage them to open a PayPal account, or anything similar that is recognized in Russia.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 8, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #175 of 228 (870 views)
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Re: [freddysdaddy] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

STILL no real details??

100 people on that jump, at least 9 people in the lead diamond KNOW some details of how long they took the mad skillz diamond leading the formation...

Was a language barrier an issue?

Was the other person in collision also a foreigner?

Were the people on the jump qualified to make such a formation jump, or were they taking anybody willing to put a dress on?? (except for the ones they are politically at odds against anyway)

I still believe simply writing this off to a big way risk of collision is the wrong attitude to take. That was but one link in this chain.


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