Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012

 

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omnia

Oct 2, 2012, 12:33 PM
Post #126 of 228 (2859 views)
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Re: [DSE] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We've had two fatalities at the wingsuit bigways.

Is the first fatality you are referring to the one at Elsinore in 2009? If so, wasn't that NOT on a bigway jump?

In reply to:
We've had two canopy collisions in a month, related to bigways.

I thought the first collision was on a 6-way, not a big way?


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:36 PM
Post #127 of 228 (2853 views)
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Re: [omnia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Depending on where you jump, a 6 way can easily be a multi-plane organized formation jump.
a.k.a. - bigway.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:37 PM
Post #128 of 228 (2849 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Depending on where you jump, a 6 way can easily be a multi-plane organized formation jump.
a.k.a. - bigway.

I would call that a formation load not a big way.

By that logic a 100 way out of a C130 would not be a big way?


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #129 of 228 (2841 views)
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Re: [DSE] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I understand advocatint the "safety sleeve" concept that doesn't work 99.999% of the time anyway. Even on the suits that have an actual safety cuff and arm cutaways, problems still occur.

What material are you basing that conclusion on? I believe that is an incorrect statement but I will start a thread elsewhere on it as I think it is dragging this topic down.


michalm21  (Student)

Oct 2, 2012, 1:10 PM
Post #130 of 228 (2802 views)
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Re: [DSE] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

This fatality is just sad for both involved.
This is not to judge anyone's skill set or experience level, but possibility of such canopy collision was of a few reasons I opted not to participate in this event.
The 68 way in 2009 scared me, plus unlike the freefly or big RW ways, wingsuiters' experience is significantly lower because well, there aren't that many of us.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 2, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #131 of 228 (2700 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct.

Roughly 60% of the jumpers where not flying gear/brand you mention. And even on said gear, results in reaching risers greatly vary.
This thread is not a sales pitch. Its a discussion on dangers in bigway flying and wingsuits related to this accident.
Judging photos, the deceased also flew a wingsuit that doesnt have said feature, and if you ever face another person up close after deployment its also not a 100% certainty he or she is able to instantly acces risers/toggles, so for sure a big added risk.

Most of what Robin sums up is perhaps painfull to some, but true and way to important to ignore.

Did I mention a brand? Did I even say it just depended on the wingsuit?

I figured you would pitch in on the defensive side. I am not talking about a specific brand. I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem. I have also seen people in what I guess were "big fitting" suits be able to worm their way up to the toggles.

It is incorrect to say ALL wingsuiters cannot control their canopy upon opening. That is what I was correcting...the myth.

If you are going to talk openly about the dangers of big ways and canopy choices then include ALL equipment choices in the discussion.

That may be true enough, but it only takes one.....

Its sad that she didn't make it....


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Oct 2, 2012, 2:10 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 2, 2012, 2:48 PM
Post #132 of 228 (2642 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A few thousand jumps sounds like enough experience for
Big ways. Another Russian died there during a big way event
About 2 years ago roughly, when crossing the runway low and had
a canopy collision.
Should we ban bigways? I say why not. Much like the current filling
of ponds in SoCal when swoopers get injured or die.
The reality is, bigways are not necessary and far more dangerous
of a skydive. This of course would never happen though because
bigways are huge money makers for dropzones, where as swooping
is a very small amount of revenue.
I think skydiving/swooping/big turns should not be regulated.
A bit off topic here.
It's a shame she died, as I remember her walking around the dz
that weekend looking great.
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.
Jumping out of a plane with 100 people is putting yourself at much higher risk...that's all there is to this mishap.

Your argument is silly and I think you know it. Swoop ponds are going away because of the death toll in swooping. More jumpers died under open canopies just last year then the total killed on all bigways.
And yes it is about money, do you think DZOs run a drop zone for a hobby? If you cant be part of the solution dont be part of the problem.

Sparky












normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 3, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #138 of 228 (1910 views)
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect some folks with "world record skillz" do not, in fact, posses said skillz.

They are failing on simple AND difficult breakoffs, packing, line stowing, canopy choice, exits, landings, navigation, and overall gear choice.

Doing nothing to correct these issues is not the proper response.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 3, 2012, 10:18 AM)


michalm21  (Student)

Oct 3, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #139 of 228 (1843 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, actually I suspect some folks with "world record skillz" do not, in fact, posses said skillz.
agreed, very much so actually
In reply to:
They are failing on simple AND difficult breakoffs, packing, line stowing, canopy choice, exits, landings, navigation, and overall gear choice.
this is full of shit, how could you possibly know that?
do you know most jumpers or are you just assuming to make a point?
In reply to:
Doing nothing to correct these issues is not the proper response.
agreed, but how do you know it's not the case?


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 3, 2012, 10:18 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 3, 2012, 9:07 AM
Post #140 of 228 (1828 views)
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Re: [michalm21] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Many of those 'line items' can, do, will, and have, been active members of the chain of events.
Having your d-bag float and spin in your burble is not a good thing. Any number of those factors can cause the spin.
We should all know what that causes and why.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 3, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #141 of 228 (1804 views)
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just happened to hit reply to kallend because it was convenient but I am asking this of anyone who is familiar with wingsuiting (which I am not).

What do wingsuiters do to help mitigate the big burble that can be created above and behind the wingsuiter? And to help mitigate line twist and off heading openings?

Longer bridles? Bigger pilot chutes? Semi stowless or stowless bags? Canopy choice?

Educate me please.

.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Oct 3, 2012, 9:57 AM
Post #142 of 228 (1771 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just happened to hit reply to kallend because it was convenient but I am asking this of anyone who is familiar with wingsuiting (which I am not).

What do wingsuiters do to help mitigate the big burble that can be created above and behind the wingsuiter? And to help mitigate line twist and off heading openings?

Longer bridles? Bigger pilot chutes? Semi stowless or stowless bags? Canopy choice?

Educate me please.

.

I don't think the burble is the cause of most line twists, and I've had plenty. In my case I'd blame body position and deployment issues over packing or gear near 100%. I do think a long bridle is needed with a big wingsuit, but not so much to prevent line twists as to avoid a PCIT.
Once you get line twists then canopy choice is important as to what happens next.
Some are big on stowless bags, packing tweaks, and container mods but I don't think it matters much. I don't use them and hardly ever have problems any more. So to answer your question, I think learning to deploy good and fly out the opening good are really the best bet for avoiding the problem.
I will add that I still know I could have a problem on any jump and try really hard to be well clear of anybody else when deploying.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 3, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #143 of 228 (1729 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Semantics arguments deleted. Let's not try to redefine terms in these threads.


Whamie  (No License)

Oct 3, 2012, 10:43 AM
Post #144 of 228 (1699 views)
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Re: [Terai] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's really hard not to cry since Perris is my home DZ. It hits home really hard.
Though I was not there for the incident I was there the weekend before going through my AFF course. I recall seeing a huge group of wingsuit flyers practicing the formation on the grass area.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and community.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 3, 2012, 11:47 AM
Post #145 of 228 (1602 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just happened to hit reply to kallend because it was convenient but I am asking this of anyone who is familiar with wingsuiting (which I am not).

What do wingsuiters do to help mitigate the big burble that can be created above and behind the wingsuiter? And to help mitigate line twist and off heading openings?

Longer bridles? Bigger pilot chutes? Semi stowless or stowless bags? Canopy choice?

Educate me please.

.

As Ed mentioned, there are a variety of ways to mitigate this problem. With bigger suits, the longer bridle is definitely recommended...although I know of some who don't use one. Most people I know no longer rely on the other mods (like cut corners, etc).

Personally, I fly a much smaller suit (a Shadow), and for my first 50 wingsuit jumps, I jumped with standard gear (Vector Micron, no cut corners, standard bridle, standard d-bag). Never had a problem. Since then, I've upgraded to a semi-stowless bag and an extended bridle on both my rigs, only when the occasion arose to replace them (i.e., I didn't go specifically seeking the mod - I was simply ordering a new rig, and replacing my old PC, and it seemed like those options could more likely help than hurt me. And my semi-stowless d-bag isn't for wingsuiting per se - I simply find it easier to pack).

Were I to move to a bigger suit, I'd think my setup would be sufficient.

Also as Ed suggested, canopy choice plays a role. I fly a Pilot-104 and a Crossfire2-105, both loaded at about 1.4 to 1. While I know a number of wingsuiters who fly Crossfires, Nitrons, and other elliptical canopies, I specifically got the Pilot for wingsuiting - better safe than sorry.


tl;dr: The burble is much more significant with bigger suits, and generally people mitigate it with a longer bridle (& possibly a bigger PC). Other mods are kinda like packing voodoo - some will swear by that one thing they have, and others will swear it's not necessary.

The most important thing is learning to pitch your PC into the cleanest air possible (whether that means full flight, collapsing your wings, or other)...and learning to fly your openings. Most experienced wingsuiters I know (myself included) are tucking and unzipping our armwings as the bag comes off our backs. Particularly in events where there may be other canopies nearby.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:12 PM
Post #146 of 228 (1567 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This needs to be examined as a skydiving incident first, and then a wingsuit incident second.

Why was there a collision? Were break off procedures correct? Were there close calls earlier in the event? Was this just an isolated incident of two jumpers not seeing each other or inadvertantly tracking towards each other?

What exactly happened on the collision? Was she incapacitated by the canopy striking her body?

Did the gear work properly? Was her reserve wing loaded too high? Was there a reserve pilot chute hesitation? Was the reserve damaged? Was her helmet worn properly and did it get dislodged on the collision? Was there an attempt at a PLF?

Was her wingsuit still zipped up at the arms upon landing? Did the collision dislodge her handles? Did the collision damage her arms and or legs in some manner? Did the trailing canopy interfere with her emergency procedures?

Did she have cutaway experience? Did she ever cutaway while wingsuiting?

Instead of debating gear with toggles on the shoulders, we should be examining the facts when they are presented. IMHO.

All good questions, Rich - many I asked myself.

I can't speak to all your Q's, but I can answer some of them:


1) I watched the overhead cameraflyer's video of the jump to see how the breakoff looked. Breakoff procedures were correct and well-executed. Both wingsuiters were flying on opposite sides of the formation, and broke off in opposite directions. Both appeared to have more than adequate separation from each other and the rest of their surrounding wingsuiters prior to the cameraflyer's deployment. (After he deployed, the video shows nothing else of the incident).

Watching the video of breakoff, I would not have recommended doing anything differently if I were organizing the jump.

2) I am not aware of any other 'close calls' during the event...save, perhaps, the types of 'close calls' one sees on any big way (i.e., the occasional person with line twists that another canopy has to steer clear to avoid, and the stress of opening closer to other canopies than one is normally accustomed - neither of which are close calls, but just seem a little closer than normal). Overall, in my experience, the breakoffs during the entire event were remarkably clean and well-organized.


I was not a responder to the incident, and so I don't know the answers to a lot of the other questions (and some I suspect we may never know).

For me, as unfortunate as it is, I think my takeway was simple: the stakes are higher when you're in the air with 100+ other people. Even by following proper breakoff procedures, even with seemingly-adequate separation, something unexpected can still come out of nowhere and kill you. This isn't an everyday fun jump. It's serious business.*


Canopy choice may or may not have played a role. I still don't know who was flying what canopy during the collision. We don't know if Irina had full control of her canopy (it's conceivable that both jumpers were dealing with line twists at the time, and both were unfortunate enough to draw the unlucky card that sent them flying towards each other). But regardless, one of the things we accept when flying on big ways is an increased risk. We do everything we can to mitigate it, but can't eliminate it all.

Knowing Irina's experience (and the many big way world records she holds), while I can't say for sure her experience helped her know how to handle this situation, my gut tells me she did everything she could. But unfortunately, she may be the only person who knew the answer to a lot of these questions. Frown

Regardless, although I hate just writing it off to this, I think it deserves to be said - as someone much wiser than me once put it: "No matter how good you are, you're never too good to get killed by this sport." Frown


*This is in staunch contrast to the other recent wingsuit collision, where a case of 'get-back-itis' led to inadequate separation between 2 wingsuit pilots on a 6-way jump.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #147 of 228 (1560 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
. Most experienced wingsuiters I know (myself included) are tucking and unzipping our armwings as the bag comes off our backs. Particularly in events where there may be other canopies nearby.
You make that sound like it's a good thing.

Does all that moving around during the opening not promote off heading openings?

It sure would with my canopy but then it's a Velocity at about 2:1.

.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Oct 3, 2012, 12:15 PM)


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:22 PM
Post #148 of 228 (1545 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.
Most experienced wingsuiters I know (myself included) are tucking and unzipping our armwings as the bag comes off our backs. Particularly in events where there may be other canopies nearby.
You make that sound like it's a good thing.

Does all that moving around during the opening not promote off heading openings?

It sure would with my canopy but then it's a Velocity at about 2:1.

.
In a traditional (non-full-flight) wingsuit deployment, one's arms are tucked close to one's chest (in order to collapse the burble for a cleaner deployment). This puts the fingers of one hand right at the place needed to grab a zipper and start unzipping as soon as you're pulled upright in the saddle. (So perhaps I shouldn't have used the words "as the bag comes off our backs".)

When done properly, it's not a lot of moving around. I've never had a problem with it causing me to turn off-heading.

Were I flying a Velo loaded at 2:1, I don't think I'd attempt it, though. (Then again, that's why I fly a Pilot when wingsuiting).


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:28 PM
Post #149 of 228 (1539 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Does anyone know how much communication there was between the two jumpers prior to the actual cutaway?

Any of us who have done CReW know how important it is to make certain both jumpers are ready for the cutaway unless everything is just happening too fast.

In other words was she ready for this cutaway?

.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #150 of 228 (1520 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Does anyone know how much communication there was between the two jumpers prior to the actual cutaway?

Any of us who have done CReW know how important it is to make certain both jumpers are ready for the cutaway unless everything is just happening too fast.

In other words was she ready for this cutaway?

.

All that I saw was the breakoff, so I really can't answer any of those Q's.


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