Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012

 

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Terai

Oct 2, 2012, 4:15 AM
Post #101 of 228 (2787 views)
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Re: [BigBUG] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

If someone still wants to help her family, I repost the bank details:

Details US Dollars Transfer
Bank: SBERBANK
SWIFT-code: SABRRUMM
Bank address: Moscow, Russian Federation,
Krasnopresnenskoye Branch No. 9038 / 1758
Beneficiary name: Artemyev Oleg Vladimirovich
Beneficiary account number 40817 840 9 3817 0001756

USD JPMorgan Chase Bank NA, New York, NY 0011909256 CHASUS33

Details Euro funds transfer
Bank: SBERBANK
SWIFT-code: SABRRUMM
Bank address: Moscow, Russian Federation,
Krasnopresnenskoye Branch No. 9038 / 1758
Beneficiary name: Artemyev Oleg Vladimirovich
Beneficiary account number 40817 978 0 3817 0001078

EUR Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt am Main 10094987261000 DEUTDEFF

Irretrievable loss for us.


(This post was edited by Terai on Oct 2, 2012, 4:18 AM)


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 2, 2012, 7:07 AM
Post #102 of 228 (2619 views)
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Re: [Terai] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is also a paypal account under the email AOV@Vysota.ru.

Fly free.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 8:37 AM
Post #103 of 228 (2493 views)
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Re: [BigBUG] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this incident sounds EXACTLY like the canopy collision that happened at the Tiki boogie.

WTF?

Are we seeing a lack of needed experience for the jumps?
Hot dogging and racing at breakoff?
Pocket rocket canopy, poor packing, off heading openings?
Is this the same jumper with the collision at Tiki?


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Oct 2, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #104 of 228 (2461 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

A few thousand jumps sounds like enough experience for
Big ways. Another Russian died there during a big way event
About 2 years ago roughly, when crossing the runway low and had
a canopy collision.
Should we ban bigways? I say why not. Much like the current filling
of ponds in SoCal when swoopers get injured or die.
The reality is, bigways are not necessary and far more dangerous
of a skydive. This of course would never happen though because
bigways are huge money makers for dropzones, where as swooping
is a very small amount of revenue.
I think skydiving/swooping/big turns should not be regulated.
A bit off topic here.
It's a shame she died, as I remember her walking around the dz
that weekend looking great.
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.
Jumping out of a plane with 100 people is putting yourself at much higher risk...that's all there is to this mishap.


(This post was edited by Kynan1 on Oct 2, 2012, 8:58 AM)


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:14 AM
Post #105 of 228 (2399 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.

Not linked to this accident, but do have to say you're not entirely correct there.
On any given wingsuit jump, smal canopies will lead to offheading openings a lot quicker. And in case of 50 to a 100 people in the sky with their hands 'tied' the first few seconds after opening, a safe canopy selection for sure makes a big difference.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:22 AM
Post #106 of 228 (2372 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

While the deceased had 1000's of jumps, it is my understanding that was not the case for the majority of the jumpers on this big way.

Two wingie canopy collisions within a very short time frame SHOULD make us look at similarities.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 2, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #107 of 228 (2340 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Much like the current filling of ponds in SoCal when swoopers get injured or
>die. The reality is, bigways are not necessary and far more dangerous
>of a skydive.

That's not supported by fatality stats. Far more people are killed swooping than on bigways.

>Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.

There are many ways to avoid collisions on bigways. One of those ways is good canopy choice. Larger canopies that open on heading are, in general, better than smaller canopies that tend to open on random headings.


Rick  (D 28557)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #108 of 228 (2312 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Much like the current filling of ponds in SoCal when swoopers get injured or
>die. The reality is, bigways are not necessary and far more dangerous
>of a skydive.

That's not supported by fatality stats. Far more people are killed swooping than on bigways.

>Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.

There are many ways to avoid collisions on bigways. One of those ways is good canopy choice. Larger canopies that open on heading are, in general, better than smaller canopies that tend to open on random headings.

I have to agree with Bill on this. I don't jump a small canopy but I know people that will up size for bigway jumps. Having more consistent openings and more time to get into the pattern is not a bad idea.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Oct 2, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #109 of 228 (2256 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.

Not linked to this accident, but do have to say you're not entirely correct there.
On any given wingsuit jump, smal canopies will lead to offheading openings a lot quicker. And in case of 50 to a 100 people in the sky with their hands 'tied' the first few seconds after opening, a safe canopy selection for sure makes a big difference.

The way I read Kynan's post is that the additional risk you create by putting yourself in the air with 100+ other people far outweighs any risk mitigation achieved by jumping a slower canopy, especially when, as you point out, those 100+ people all have their hands tied during and immediately after opening. To put it another way, Kynan is saying that debating canopy size for wingsuit big-ways is like arguing about what kind of bandaid you're going to put on a severed artery.

Moreover, "on any given wingsuit jump, (wingsuits) lead to offheading openings" regardless of canopy type and wing loading because even the tiniest asymmetry in body position is magnified and those asymmetries are more likely on big-ways because peeps are looking around for other traffic even as they deploy (just like in other disciplines).

Ergo, the risk curve bends upward way -- way -- steeper on wingsuit big-ways than on other kinds of big-ways because of these factors.

Add to that the following facts:

* Wingsuit big-ways are made up of people with far fewer wingsuit jumps and years of experience in wingsuiting compared to the the people on big-ways of other disciplines

* Wingsuit big-way personnel are drawn from a way -- way -- smaller talent pool compared to the big-ways of other disciplines

* Wingsuit big-way organizers are way -- way -- less experienced than their counterparts in other disciplines.

Think about it. The 400-way RW jumps have people on them that have been doing big-way RW not for 5 or 6 years but for 30 or 40 years (ditto for the organizers). And how big was the biggest RW big-way when RW was 10-12 years old? That would have been about 1975 when, IIRC, the world record was... 26.

Ditto for freeflying. How big was the FF big-way record in 2005 (or whenever FF hit the 10-12-year mark?)

Ditto for CRW? How big was the CRW big-way record in 1988?

Look it up and you'll find all of those numbers are just a fraction of the 100+ tried at Perris and the 68/71 done wherever that was done.

And guess what? None of those peeps had their hands tied on opening.

Given this history and the highly experienced wingsuiters involved in the two recent collisions, it may be time for the pushers of big-way wingsuit jumps to rethink what they're doing because what's happening now is not laughable.

44
Frown


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #110 of 228 (2219 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.
And in case of 50 to a 100 people in the sky with their hands 'tied' the first few seconds after opening, a safe canopy selection for sure makes a big difference.

I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct. It depends on a few variables including equipment.

On this big way I landed with arms fully zipped up on one occasion due to the priority of flying the canopy. I am also able to reach and spread my risers on every opening.

I do agree that more docile and predictable canopies are always better choices for wingsuiting. Getting on your toggles isn't going to help if you are in line twists.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #111 of 228 (2146 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct.

Roughly 60% of the jumpers where not flying gear/brand you mention. And even on said gear, results in reaching risers greatly vary.
This thread is not a sales pitch. Its a discussion on dangers in bigway flying and wingsuits related to this accident.
Judging photos, the deceased also flew a wingsuit that doesnt have said feature, and if you ever face another person up close after deployment its also not a 100% certainty he or she is able to instantly acces risers/toggles, so for sure a big added risk.

Most of what Robin sums up is perhaps painfull to some, but true and way to important to ignore.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:02 AM
Post #112 of 228 (2116 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct.

Roughly 60% of the jumpers where not flying gear/brand you mention. And even on said gear, results in reaching risers greatly vary.
This thread is not a sales pitch. Its a discussion on dangers in bigway flying and wingsuits related to this accident.
Judging photos, the deceased also flew a wingsuit that doesnt have said feature, and if you ever face another person up close after deployment its also not a 100% certainty he or she is able to instantly acces risers/toggles, so for sure a big added risk.

Most of what Robin sums up is perhaps painfull to some, but true and way to important to ignore.

Did I mention a brand? Did I even say it just depended on the wingsuit?

I figured you would pitch in on the defensive side. I am not talking about a specific brand. I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem. I have also seen people in what I guess were "big fitting" suits be able to worm their way up to the toggles.

It is incorrect to say ALL wingsuiters cannot control their canopy upon opening. That is what I was correcting...the myth.

If you are going to talk openly about the dangers of big ways and canopy choices then include ALL equipment choices in the discussion.


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:11 AM
Post #113 of 228 (2096 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem.

Can you elaborate on this? I've never heard of it.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:15 AM
Post #114 of 228 (2086 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am not talking about a specific brand.

Neither was I. I dont mention one specific brand. Im just saying most are not jumping that kind of equipment. Simply do a count on the participants. And regardless if its a Venom, Xbird o Sbird, more than half dont have that option/ability. And though you may have, there is no way of telling if a person coming at you at high speed after opening (regardles if its offheading or dealing with a twist) is able to instantly acces their risers. So its a valid point worth concidering on seperation, in reply to why wingsuit bigways are quite a bit more dangerous than 'normal' ones.

But instead of wasting time on marketing driven, defensive talk, hit reply on Robins post as that has a lot more worthy points of discussion.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:18 AM
Post #115 of 228 (2076 views)
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Re: [The111] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem.

Can you elaborate on this? I've never heard of it.

He is talking about Snekor basegear, though no idea why or how this even relate. So far not a single piece of TSOed skydiving equipment has that feature, nor can you trust on the fact that all participants have said gear (same goes for 'reaching risers' related to suit features)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:21 AM
Post #116 of 228 (2071 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I am not talking about a specific brand.

But instead of wasting time on marketing driven, defensive talk, hit reply on Robins post as that has a lot more worthy points of discussion.

If you really think this is about marketing you are missing the point.

What I can tell you from MY experience is if I have someone flying towards me and they have no ability to control their canopy you better believe I will be glad I can control mine.

If you really think that is irrelevant then I suggest you question your motives.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:27 AM
Post #117 of 228 (2058 views)
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Re: [The111] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem.

Can you elaborate on this? I've never heard of it.

Attached is what I am referring to. I saw this example at the expo last year and this is a BASE model for sure. However it is a wingsuit that allows you to grab your toggles and I think that is one of the topics in question.

For skydiving I have no idea if relocating the toggles of a main has an impact on the TSO. I didn't think the main was covered under a TSO.

My point is there are solutions out there to allow toggle inputs during and upon opening.

Simon


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #118 of 228 (2031 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

So you are saying, because YOU can control your canopy quicker, wingsuit bigways are not dangerous?

It has nothing to do with motives. But more-so with not sticking your head in the sand, and constantly sweet-talking about how awesome and safe the discipline is.

Regardless of your own gear, its only 50% of the equation. And to me, thats a risk/knowledge worth talking about.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #119 of 228 (2028 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

By "attached" do you mean your website url?


grimmie  (D 18890)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:48 AM
Post #120 of 228 (2014 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

This needs to be examined as a skydiving incident first, and then a wingsuit incident second.

Why was there a collision? Were break off procedures correct? Were there close calls earlier in the event? Was this just an isolated incident of two jumpers not seeing each other or inadvertantly tracking towards each other?

What exactly happened on the collision? Was she incapacitated by the canopy striking her body?

Did the gear work properly? Was her reserve wing loaded too high? Was there a reserve pilot chute hesitation? Was the reserve damaged? Was her helmet worn properly and did it get dislodged on the collision? Was there an attempt at a PLF?

Was her wingsuit still zipped up at the arms upon landing? Did the collision dislodge her handles? Did the collision damage her arms and or legs in some manner? Did the trailing canopy interfere with her emergency procedures?

Did she have cutaway experience? Did she ever cutaway while wingsuiting?

Instead of debating gear with toggles on the shoulders, we should be examining the facts when they are presented. IMHO.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:54 AM
Post #121 of 228 (2017 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oooops!
Attachments: Core_invincibility-toggles.jpg (43.7 KB)


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:55 AM
Post #122 of 228 (2015 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

If some wingsuits allow reaching toggles/risers during/after deployment shouldn't we talk about making this a feature on all suits one way or another?


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:59 AM
Post #123 of 228 (1993 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe this is somewhat off topic - or this actual, specific individual incident - but I think still germane. People are now here with this, starting to point out what seems to be also, a recent spike, in specifically these types of incidents. Canopy collisions upon opening on wingsuit flocking (record / bigway or not) dives. Wasn't there also fairly recently - some recounting of as well, a story of a wingsuit jumper who actually cut-away right in the face of what she said was otherwise - an absolute imminent collision -as her "avoidance maneuver" of such? Had that not actually worked out (debatable whether that should be considered the correct response / right action to take faced with this, notwithstanding) - Would we perhaps have yet even ANOTHER of these, in just such recent / current memory here too?

Maybe there is some legitimacy in calling for an unbiased evaluation, and direct comparison (but done / provided by who?) to take place - looking into each of these (seemingly SO SIMILAR) recent events? Maybe 3 or 4 of these hppening in such quick/recent succession in so many weeks/months is not an "epidemic", but by some's reasoning's - it could certainly at least appear so.

So saddened now, to hear this has turned into a fatality. Frown Frown


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Oct 2, 2012, 12:01 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:03 PM
Post #124 of 228 (1982 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am in full agreement here - way too many similarities.

What are the common factors of the two incidents?



Beuller?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:17 PM
Post #125 of 228 (1944 views)
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Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.
And in case of 50 to a 100 people in the sky with their hands 'tied' the first few seconds after opening, a safe canopy selection for sure makes a big difference.

I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct. It depends on a few variables including equipment.

On this big way I landed with arms fully zipped up on one occasion due to the priority of flying the canopy. I am also able to reach and spread my risers on every opening.

I do agree that more docile and predictable canopies are always better choices for wingsuiting. Getting on your toggles isn't going to help if you are in line twists.

Robin may not be "100% correct;" he is however, 99.9% correct.
One cannot logically argue that zipped-in arms (whether you can reach risers or toggles or slider isn't germane) doesn't have an affect on controllability and in some cases zipped arms have caused linetwists *after* deployment. I understand advocatint the "safety sleeve" concept that doesn't work 99.999% of the time anyway. Even on the suits that have an actual safety cuff and arm cutaways, problems still occur.

Irina's arms were apparently unzipped, and I'm told the body zips were down too so this isn't likely a relevant aspect.

Experience, currency, canopy type are all links in a chain. We've had two fatalities at the wingsuit bigways. We've had two canopy collisions in a month, related to bigways. Both collisions have indications of one jumper cutting away without communication with the other jumper.

As Robin indicates, median experience averages likely play a role.


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