Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012

 

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normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 27, 2012, 7:52 AM
Post #53 of 228 (3041 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Packing, line stow length, bridle length, PC size all have more to do with wingie off heading openings than canopy choice.
While I will agree that there is no need for pocket rocket canopies on wingsuit jumps, especially large flocks, it doesn't appear to have much if anything to do with this incident.

Wingsuit incidents are clearly on the rise. This is the second canopy collision during break-off in a very short time frame.
Maybe we should look for the similarities and focus more on the break-off dynamics that are clearly not working for some formations.




airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #55 of 228 (2985 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kynan.
Thanks for a factual reply. based on what you saw. Versus how experienced someone else is who is (claimed) to have said something.
I don't know the reporter. Or the entierty of what they wrote. Or what was edited.
Nor do i (know) Dan. Although i do know of him. And i wasn't trying to question his entegrity!
But i KNOW that i saw a jumper coming straight down with nothing but crap above them.
And was waiting for them to cut away. Then started thinking that they needed to just get their reserve out as they got lower.
But the story said something different! So i was trying to figure out if it was refering to the part which i did not see?
And i really am surprised that no one has commented on the stories claim that the only two choices if entangled.
With a GOOD CANOPY ABOVE YOU AND ONE WRAPPED AROUND YOUR BODY. STREAMERING BEHIND YOU LIKE A BANNER.
Is to (try and land like that) Or use your emergency chute!)
I can't imagine that Dan would actually teach that as an ep.
So figured it was a typical news stroy. And as this is a forum for skydivers thought it should be pointed out.
I believe i was taught that below 1000 feet if you do not have a good canopy above you
To just put your reserve out and hope for the best.
Is that wrong?
I realize that there is a risk of the reserve entangling with the crap that's already out.
But isn't taking that chance better then trying to clear the entanglment all the way to the ground?
And if so shouldn't it be pointed out?


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 27, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #56 of 228 (2929 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Kynan.
Thanks for a factual reply. based on what you saw. Versus how experienced someone else is who is (claimed) to have said something.
I don't know the reporter. Or the entierty of what they wrote. Or what was edited.
Nor do i (know) Dan. Although i do know of him. And i wasn't trying to question his entegrity!
But i KNOW that i saw a jumper coming straight down with nothing but crap above them.
And was waiting for them to cut away. Then started thinking that they needed to just get their reserve out as they got lower.
But the story said something different! So i was trying to figure out if it was refering to the part which i did not see?
And i really am surprised that no one has commented on the stories claim that the only two choices if entangled.
With a GOOD CANOPY ABOVE YOU AND ONE WRAPPED AROUND YOUR BODY. STREAMERING BEHIND YOU LIKE A BANNER.
Is to (try and land like that) Or use your emergency chute!)
I can't imagine that Dan would actually teach that as an ep.
So figured it was a typical news stroy. And as this is a forum for skydivers thought it should be pointed out.
I believe i was taught that below 1000 feet if you do not have a good canopy above you
To just put your reserve out and hope for the best.
Is that wrong?
I realize that there is a risk of the reserve entangling with the crap that's already out.
But isn't taking that chance better then trying to clear the entanglment all the way to the ground?
And if so shouldn't it be pointed out?

Why don't you go and introduce yourself to Dan and ask him?


(This post was edited by WickedWingsuits on Sep 27, 2012, 9:41 AM)


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 10:05 AM
Post #57 of 228 (2897 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

A.
Because i'm no longer there.
B.
Because i do not believe that he wrote a news paper article!
My questions were aimed at trying to determine if what was (reported in a news paper article) was something which i did not see.
And pointing out that (the article) did not make sense!
It had nothing to do with Dan. Except to have claimed to qoute him.
And the media often misqoutes what people say! So (i stated) that i'm sure that is not what he would teach as an ep!
Thereforth there is nothing to ask (him) as it wasn't about him!


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #58 of 228 (2871 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

But the parachute of the male skydiver, whose name has not been released, wrapped around Sinitsinaĺs body. So the male jumper jettisoned his deflated chute and landed safely beneath his emergency chute.

Sinitsina then faced a choice: She could land her fully inflated parachute, towing her companionĺs deflated chute as if it were a banner, or she could jettison her main parachute and use her emergency chute.

That is the part of the (article) i was trying to point out!
the fact that it is wrong. And she was (not) under a good canopy is irrelavent.
But the part that claims she (was) under a good canopy and then (faced a choice) to land like that? Or jettison/cut away (while still entangled) and use her reserve is totally relevant!
Because one person with a fairly high number of jumps did claim that the article was a factual report of what did happen.
Is that really what you want some newby to think is a correct ep for an entanglement? With a good canopy above them?


(This post was edited by airborne47 on Sep 27, 2012, 10:28 AM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 27, 2012, 10:42 AM
Post #59 of 228 (2843 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Your recollection of what happened may not be accurate. That is not uncommon with eye witnesses to these kind of events. Memory doesn't ever work as well as photos and videos.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 27, 2012, 11:16 AM
Post #60 of 228 (2797 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the
>elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors.

All modern canopies are elliptical to some degree, and ellipticalness alone is a poor way to determine a canopy's on-heading performance. Some square (or close to square) canopies open poorly; some very elliptical canopies open reliably on heading. On larger formation it is important to use canopies that have good on-heading performance rather than use any particular planform.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Sep 27, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #61 of 228 (2765 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Your recollection of what happened may not be accurate. That is not uncommon with eye witnesses to these kind of events. Memory doesn't ever work as well as photos and videos.

And that applies equally to witnesses with thousands of jumps too.

One scenario: the low-timer saw her canopy from an angle where it was clear she was coming straight down with no forward movement and the canopy looked gnarly in terms of its chord, but he couldn't see that looked okay in terms of its span.

Dan saw the canopy from an angle where it may have looked open -- but its lack of forward speed was not detectable to him - and its span might have looked good but he couldn't see the chord problem.

So they are essentially both right in terms of what each of them saw.

There was a famous bad call in a Denver-San Diego NFL game a few years ago that illustrates this.

Referee Ed Hochuli, one of the best of all NFL refs, made a horrifically bad call when he said QB Jay Cutler lost the ball as his arm was going foward, making it an incomplete pass, not a fumble (which San Diego recovered).

One replay showed clearly that the ball went backward as Cutler's arm went forward, making it very clearly a fumble -- and Hochuli caught as much grief for it as the replacement ref did for his Monday Night Football call the other night because both calls changed the outcome of the game.

However, another replay from Hochuli's own angle (from behind Cutler on a straight line with the ball trajectory), showed that he literally could not see that the ball went backward when Cutler's arm went forward.

He only saw the ball flutter up in the air and extrapolated that it fluttered foward along with Cutler's forward arm movement.

Back to this incident: I trust the judgment of the jumper more than either of these eyewitnesses because she was there and she too has thousands of jumps, so if she cut away I trust that she had a good reason to do so regardless of whether a low-timer and a 25,000-jump wonder agree on what they saw.

What I want to know is:

When they found her, were her arm wings unzipped or emergency released -- or not?

Maybe someone has mentioned this info, but if so, I missed it.

Operating from the assumption that she did not unzip before the collision, my speculation is:

The wrapped canopy may have prevented her from releasing her arm wings, in which case she cut away (regardless of main condition) in order to hopefully free her arms so she could steer the canopy (it's way easier to reach silver with a wingsuit on than it is to reach toggles).

Whether this happened or she in fact a bad main canopy, she cut away pretty low, and I take the turns the canopy made before leveling out (according to Dan) as possible evidence that she was trying at that low altitude to unzip her arm wings and either:

a) didn't get it done at all before she landed; or

b) got it done in time to level out, she didn't have time to figure out that she was flying into an embankment instead of flat ground.

Knowing the condition of her arm wing zippers or releases when they found her will clarify some things about what happened and exclude others, and I think that's a critical path datum that we need to know in order to move forward productively.

44
Frown


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #62 of 228 (2547 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not just my recollection that she was coming straight down with nothing but crap above her.
But that of two others who have directly commented in this forum as well.
Which makes three jumpers who saw the exact same thing!
And are the only ones who have commented as to what happened!
I'll take that over a newspaper story which (qouted) someone. Thank you!
But as i said the fact that the story was incorrect is irrellivent.
For a jumper with several hundreds of jumps to say that the story was accurate.
When it says that with a good canopy above your head.
And a (deflated) canopy wrapped around your (body) your choices are to try and land like that. Or cut away and deploy your reserve is relevant!
I hope to god some newby didn't read and believe that?
Yes you should chop and deploy your reserve if your (canopy) is entangled with another canopy. Or anything else.
But if (you) have a (good canopy) above your head. And a (deflated) canopy wrapped around your (body)
Chopping and (trying) to clear it or trying to deploy your reserve through it is not a good option!


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #63 of 228 (2538 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to point out that while you say (Dan saw) that is not knowen as a fact.
All we have to base that assumption on so far in this thread.
Is what a reporter says Dan said! So I AM NOT trying to dispute what Dan said!
Just quetioning what happened before i and two others who have posted here saw.
Which was her coming stright down with a bad canopy above her.
And pointing out that chopping a good canopy while still entangled with another one.
And then trying to deploy your reserve through the entanglement.
Just so you can hopefully get a good canopy above you (again) is not a good option!


basehoundsam

Sep 27, 2012, 6:11 PM
Post #64 of 228 (2519 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

 You do realize that there are many situations that warrant choping under 1000 ft. A canopy transfer is one of a few options available to a competent jumper. In the end we all have to live with our choices... canopy, cutaway, and landing. Aff is basic survival .... the bare minimum to keep you alive as a low timer. AFF rules are not always the only choice, and not always the right one.
Im not saying the said jumper made good or bad choices.... just that with her jump numbers, she probably made an educated and calculated choice.

Just my .02$$






miconar  (D 1084)

Sep 27, 2012, 8:37 PM
Post #67 of 228 (2410 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear intermediate jumpers. Thank you for partaking in our (all of us) amazing sport, and thank you for participating in this open discussion of an incident which we would all like to learn from and avoid in the future.


I am not disputing the importance of asking questions and suggesting ideas for future learning for people of all experience levels, and certainly am not saying that 1st hand accounts of eye witnesses do not belong here.

I would like to suggest to you that this big way event was made out of people, just like you. Some smarter some less, some experienced, some less. Some with good gear choices, some less, some who act in ways you would agree with, some less. But all are people, with great love for our sport, including the injured jumper and the other person that was involved in the canopy collision, as well as the event organizers and other participants who knew the injured jumper before or met her during the event.

Please, for all of our sakes, yourselves included, take a deep breath before posting and make a conscious effort to lower your energy levels. An idea would carry much more weight with everyone here if it is introduced with less exclamation marks and frustration about other people's perceived inability to get what you are saying.

A person has been seriously injured. Let us honor her love of wingsuiting and skydiving by learning from any mistakes that were made in a calm and collected manner.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.


5.samadhi

Sep 27, 2012, 8:56 PM
Post #68 of 228 (2394 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the
>elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors.

All modern canopies are elliptical to some degree, and ellipticalness alone is a poor way to determine a canopy's on-heading performance. Some square (or close to square) canopies open poorly; some very elliptical canopies open reliably on heading. On larger formation it is important to use canopies that have good on-heading performance rather than use any particular planform.
do you think crossfire2 is the safest possible choice for a wingsuit bigway?


miconar  (D 1084)

Sep 27, 2012, 9:09 PM
Post #69 of 228 (2377 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
do you think crossfire2 is the safest possible choice for a wingsuit bigway?

The safest choice would have been and always will be to stay on the ground and watch all the crazy people jumping out of airplanes.

A jumper and (I believe) rigger with significantly more jumps and years in the sport then you have has already suggested to you that canopy planeform has little impact on heading performance. Take his word for it or dont.

I have jumped my crossfireII/149 for all my 500 wingsuit jumps after the intial 40 or so, including during this particular big way wingsuit event with great heading performance and have had my hands on the risers after throwing my PC out and before canopy inflation every single time with out zipping down a single zipper or puling a single wing cut away, and will show you video of that if you so desire. Educate yourself before you insist you know best.

A crossfire is a safe choice for a big way for some, and less so for others. I have had dreadful openings on rectangular planeform canopies and have been injured by a harsh opening once, and switched to the crossfire platform specifically for that reason, with great results.

YMMV. Mine did.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 27, 2012, 10:42 PM
Post #70 of 228 (2330 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>do you think crossfire2 is the safest possible choice for a wingsuit bigway?

No. Nor is there any one safest canopy, or single criteria you can use to determine the safest canopy. A Crossfire2 149 is probably a much better choice than a Pilot 90. A 100% rectangular Nova 99 is an even worse idea - despite it being the only square canopy in the list.

I typically upsize when I do big ways (>100 or so,) I've used Spectres, Safires, Crossfires and Pilots. The things to consider:

-On heading performance. Pilots and Safires are great here.

-Opening speed. When it's your job to pull at 2200 you don't want a canopy that takes 800 feet to open.

-Closing speed during impending collision. Larger canopies work well to reduce this.

-Descent rate; can it keep up with the pack? A larger Katana would be comparable to a much smaller Stiletto in terms of descent rate.

-Controllabilty. Front/rear risering is often more important when flying in a crowded pattern; being able to lose altitude without spiraling or S-turning is critical.










robinheid  (D 5533)

Sep 28, 2012, 4:58 PM
Post #75 of 228 (1773 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>do you think crossfire2 is the safest possible choice for a wingsuit bigway?

No. Nor is there any one safest canopy, or single criteria you can use to determine the safest canopy. A Crossfire2 149 is probably a much better choice than a Pilot 90. A 100% rectangular Nova 99 is an even worse idea - despite it being the only square canopy in the list.

I typically upsize when I do big ways (>100 or so,) I've used Spectres, Safires, Crossfires and Pilots. The things to consider:

-On heading performance. Pilots and Safires are great here.

-Opening speed. When it's your job to pull at 2200 you don't want a canopy that takes 800 feet to open.

-Closing speed during impending collision. Larger canopies work well to reduce this.

-Descent rate; can it keep up with the pack? A larger Katana would be comparable to a much smaller Stiletto in terms of descent rate.

-Controllabilty. Front/rear risering is often more important when flying in a crowded pattern; being able to lose altitude without spiraling or S-turning is critical.

Controllability depends on toggle access, not planform or wing loading.

So, did she get her arm wings unzipped before impact or not?

44
Frown


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