Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012

 

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airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #26 of 228 (3229 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok i'm confused.
I'm no expert and was a bit overwhelmed as i thought i was going to watch another jumper bounce.
And i did not see the collision. Nor it's immediate aftermath.
I was on the patio looking in another direction when a non jumper spotted her and said. Oh my god!
When i saw her. All i saw was a jumper in a pure verticale drop with no forward movement.
There was NO CHOICE in landing like that! Had she already cut away her canopy? And was that his canopy still attached to her?
I (had thought) that it may have been a skyhook deployment becasue the reserve was out so quickly after it broke away.
But i guess it could have seperated as a result of her reserve activation making it (look) that way?
Like i said i'm just confused. And am trying to figure out what i saw.


flyingmontana  (D 31509)

Sep 26, 2012, 9:55 AM
Post #27 of 228 (3177 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Airborne. Didn't see the collision, but saw her falling straight down under a streamer, seeming to struggle to cut away till finally the streamer separated from her and the reserve came out FAST. There was no way she could have landed what she had above her head before the cutaway.
I also did not see the reserve make the turns that Dan BC describes, but I tend to trust him more than myself, so maybe my memory is flawed there. I thought the reserve seemed to make a good (though fast) descent.


5.samadhi

Sep 26, 2012, 9:56 AM
Post #28 of 228 (3176 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

were there any rules for jumping an elliptical during the wingsuit bigway...if not why not? It seems stupid to jump an elliptical during a wingsuit bigway. Given an offheading correction will be slower due to needing to unzip arm wings.

Given the recent problems with collisions after wingsuit RW jumps it seems clear that the hesitation a jumper experiences due to the constrictions of the suit outweigh the ability to gain separation due to forward movement of the suit.

Is that clear to everybody else? Why don't we establish a principle where we jump square canopies during WS bigways?????? At least we will minimize the chance of offheadings (no matter how many mad skillz the jumper has).

Right tool for the right job...


tbrown  (D 6533)

Sep 26, 2012, 12:38 PM
Post #29 of 228 (3012 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
were there any rules for jumping an elliptical during the wingsuit bigway...if not why not? It seems stupid to jump an elliptical during a wingsuit bigway. Given an offheading correction will be slower due to needing to unzip arm wings.

These were world class wingsuiters. I'm not a wingsuiter myself, but I've learned that people in different disciplines can - and do - make choices that don't seem to make sense to those ofus with less experience. This is a sport where we all make decisions about what degree of risk we are willing to assume.

Given the recent problems with collisions after wingsuit RW jumps it seems clear that the hesitation a jumper experiences due to the constrictions of the suit outweigh the ability to gain separation due to forward movement of the suit.

Haven't heard of any unusual number of canopy collisions among wingsuiters. Canopy collisions can happen to anyone - and they do. Last year at Perris we lost two instructors who were virtually the only people in the sky.

Is that clear to everybody else? Why don't we establish a principle where we jump square canopies during WS bigways?????? At least we will minimize the chance of offheadings (no matter how many mad skillz the jumper has).

The only thing that's clear is that you have rather strong opinions on the subject, with rather low experience. In fact, the wingsuiting community might EVOLVE their own concepts about what kind of canopies are or are not appropriate. The organizers of this event could have imposed their own rules about canopies - but didn't. Our sport is not overly enthusiastic about making new rules to solve our problems. And for good reason.

Right tool for the right job...

Maybe so, but I'm not about to tell wingsuiters what to do. Let's let them solve their own problems.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 26, 2012, 2:16 PM
Post #30 of 228 (2927 views)
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Re: [tbrown] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

+ 1. As other disciplines have evolved with a bit of trial and error, WS is a work in progress. Problems (and solutions) become apparent as you progress along the path.

Tailstrikes seem to be another aspect that needs a solution.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 2:36 PM
Post #31 of 228 (2897 views)
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Re: [flyingmontana] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't see the landing as i turned away in relief once i saw her reserve open in what looked straight and level.
I watched a jumper bounce once before and had thought i was about to again.
So once that threat was past and she (looked) ok i was highly relieved.
But i watched her falling straight down with a canopy flapping above her.
Which i just assumed was hers and she was trying to clear.
I watched her descend for several seconds and thought she was focused on the malfunction and not alltitude.
Now i'm wondering if she cut away her canopy but remained tangled with his and fought that to long?
I definitly think a reserve should have been out sooner based on how low she was.
But like i said i'm no expert and am not trying to blame anyone.
Just understand what happened and why. I fully understand that shit happens.
And that anyone can lose alltitude awareness in an emergency.
And that's what i thought i saw! I've seen several cut ways.
And that reserve deployment was FAST!!! Any longer and she would have bounced!
Based on what i saw she focused on the problem for to long and not the solution as she was well below 1000 feet and still falling.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 4:07 PM
Post #32 of 228 (2799 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok i just read the article again and am thinking this has to be a case of a reporter not knowing what the hell they are talking about.
And misqouting someone who tried to explain what happened.
It says her parachute was inflated with his wrapped around her body and streaming behind her like a banner.
Why would anyone cut away an inflated canopy with another one wrapped around their body which is not inflated?
And then try to clear the entanglement while in freefall? Versus while flying with an inflated canopy above their head?
I might not be an expert. But that does not seem like a good choice to me!


jimjumper  (D 11137)

Sep 26, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #33 of 228 (2751 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rich Brooks is the reporter that wrote both of the PE articles. He has thousands of jumps and has been jumping for well over 30 years mostly at Perris and Elsinore.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 5:19 PM
Post #34 of 228 (2721 views)
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Re: [jimjumper] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok so what gives then?
I still don't see why anyone would cut away an inflated canopy while another is wrapped around their body?
Wouldn't you want to keep the inflated canopy and attempt to clear the entangelment?
Versus chopping while entangled? And then trying to clear it?
This story just doesn't make any sence at all!


grimmie  (D 18890)

Sep 26, 2012, 6:42 PM
Post #35 of 228 (2633 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

A canopy collision is a violent event in most cases. The jumper may have been injured, disoriented or incapacitated in some way.
Wearing a wingsuit adds to the struggle for toggles.
What we witness from the ground is not the same perspective that the jumper has. Maybe she thought her main was damaged and not fit to land.
There are many scenarios that could make sense.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 7:36 PM
Post #36 of 228 (2583 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree there are a lot of unknowens. And it would be a nightmare.
But my point was that the way the story was written made no sence!
It claimed she had an inflated canopy over her head.
And a deflated one wrapped around her body streamering behind her like a banner.
So her choices were to (try and land like that? Or use her emergency chute?)
I can see more choices then that as a novice! Like trying to clear the entanglement before chopping and going back into freefall while still entangled!
I'm not trying to second guess her. Just questioning the way the story reads.
Especially if it's writer has thousands of jumps! Is this reallly the ep to teach for an entanglement?
Thanks but no thanks! If i'm ever entangled with a good canopy above me?
I really hope the first thing i do is not chop. And then try and clear the entanglement!
Maybe she did? Maybe she didn't? And if so maybe there were reasons for it?
But to suggest that those are the only two options at that point seems wrong to me!


pms07  (D 7571)

Sep 26, 2012, 7:55 PM
Post #37 of 228 (2564 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

While it may not make "sence" to you, the quotes in the story describing the sequence of events are accurate.


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:32 PM
Post #38 of 228 (2529 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree there are a lot of unknowens. And it would be a nightmare.
But my point was that the way the story was written made no sence!
It claimed she had an inflated canopy over her head.
And a deflated one wrapped around her body streamering behind her like a banner.
So her choices were to (try and land like that? Or use her emergency chute?)
I can see more choices then that as a novice! Like trying to clear the entanglement before chopping and going back into freefall while still entangled!
I'm not trying to second guess her. Just questioning the way the story reads.
Especially if it's writer has thousands of jumps! Is this reallly the ep to teach for an entanglement?
Thanks but no thanks! If i'm ever entangled with a good canopy above me?
I really hope the first thing i do is not chop. And then try and clear the entanglement!
Maybe she did? Maybe she didn't? And if so maybe there were reasons for it?
But to suggest that those are the only two options at that point seems wrong to me!
Saying the main was inflated, was a bit stretched. It was barely inflated and she was coming straight down with it. It's not as if she has a good canopy and towing another one with her.
It's possible she was waiting for the main to catch more air to fully inflate, while hoping the other main would untangle from it.
Once this didn't seem to be happening, she chopped it @400ft roughly. It's hard to say why she didn't flare to land, but after the reserve came out...it appeared that there was zero input in the canopy.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:34 PM
Post #39 of 228 (2525 views)
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Re: [pms07] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok fine. Point out a spelling error if that's what you think is important here.
But me and Flyingmontana both saw a jumper falling under a collapsed canopy.
Not a cut away from a fully inflated canopy! So i'm wondering if she cut away before i saw it. And was streamering his or what?
Because as i stated earlier. I did not see the collision. Or it's immediate aftermath.
And no the idea that the only choices in such a situation as discribed are (landing like that)(or useing the emergency chute) does not make sense TO ME!!!!
That's why i question it! Is that really the proper ep?
I sure as hell hope you don't say yes someone should immeditally chop if entangled with another canopy. But theirs is still inflated and flying fine!


Blsthndl  (D License)

Sep 26, 2012, 9:00 PM
Post #40 of 228 (2491 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

My understanding is that Irina hit a wall of the canal which is about 8 ft high and hard as cement. If by chance she had been falling a short distance away she may well have landed without injury. The walls can be very difficult to notice from above.


5.samadhi

Sep 26, 2012, 9:44 PM
Post #41 of 228 (2479 views)
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Re: [tbrown] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
were there any rules for jumping an elliptical during the wingsuit bigway...if not why not? It seems stupid to jump an elliptical during a wingsuit bigway. Given an offheading correction will be slower due to needing to unzip arm wings.

These were world class wingsuiters. I'm not a wingsuiter myself, but I've learned that people in different disciplines can - and do - make choices that don't seem to make sense to those ofus with less experience. This is a sport where we all make decisions about what degree of risk we are willing to assume.

Given the recent problems with collisions after wingsuit RW jumps it seems clear that the hesitation a jumper experiences due to the constrictions of the suit outweigh the ability to gain separation due to forward movement of the suit.

Haven't heard of any unusual number of canopy collisions among wingsuiters. Canopy collisions can happen to anyone - and they do. Last year at Perris we lost two instructors who were virtually the only people in the sky.

Is that clear to everybody else? Why don't we establish a principle where we jump square canopies during WS bigways?????? At least we will minimize the chance of offheadings (no matter how many mad skillz the jumper has).

The only thing that's clear is that you have rather strong opinions on the subject, with rather low experience. In fact, the wingsuiting community might EVOLVE their own concepts about what kind of canopies are or are not appropriate. The organizers of this event could have imposed their own rules about canopies - but didn't. Our sport is not overly enthusiastic about making new rules to solve our problems. And for good reason.

Right tool for the right job...

Maybe so, but I'm not about to tell wingsuiters what to do. Let's let them solve their own problems.
You're funny. I am much less hesitant to voice my opinion when somebody does something stupid than you are. I do offer my condolences and positive energy to the injured and hope a full speedy recovery.

I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors. They are known to have a much higher rate of malfunction on wingsuit jumps, and open offheading much more often on skydives period.

It doesn't take hundreds of WS jumps to know that flying an elliptical canopy (crossfire2) during a wingsuit bigway is a poor choice. You're wrapped up in a straightjacket until you can unzip yourself (precious time in case of an imminent canopy collision). Avoiding a canopy can come down to fractions of a second in the worst case scenario. In a wingsuit you are spending those fractions of seconds unzipping that you could be using to avoid.

By the way there was a recent canopy collision during a wingsuit jump that involved ellipticals iirc. I think people are becoming complacent thinking the horizontal separation should be so great no problem will occur in case of an offheading. However, this is turning out to not be the case and the sky is turning out to be smaller given that we are wrapping ourselves in nylon straight jackets and flying relative.


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Sep 26, 2012, 9:49 PM)


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 11:15 PM
Post #42 of 228 (2428 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kynan.
Yeah that's what i saw as well. Not flying under a good canopy as the story claimed.
So i was wondering if she had cut away before i saw her and was still entangled with his canopy?
And i questioned the wisdom of the statement that in the event that she did have a good canopy above her.
And his was wrapped around her body. Then her choices were to land like that. Or cut away.
I really hope she pulls through this! And am just trying to understand what happened.
Because the stroy did not jive with the part of it that i did see.


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Sep 26, 2012, 11:31 PM
Post #43 of 228 (2417 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Kynan.
Yeah that's what i saw as well. Not flying under a good canopy as the story claimed.
So i was wondering if she had cut away before i saw her and was still entangled with his canopy?
And i questioned the wisdom of the statement that in the event that she did have a good canopy above her.
And his was wrapped around her body. Then her choices were to land like that. Or cut away.
I really hope she pulls through this! And am just trying to understand what happened.
Because the stroy did not jive with the part of it that i did see.
You're correct in pointing that out. There is no way I would call her main canopy "being under a good canopy"...it was a mess and she was dropping straight down.
She was under her main, but it was barely inflated...probably due to the other canopy's obstruction. If she didn't chop, she would be without a doubt gone.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 26, 2012, 11:32 PM
Post #44 of 228 (2418 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer: I was not there and did not see the event.

Rich Brooks is the reporter that wrote the article for Press Enterprise. Rich has been jumping over 40 years and has about 7,000+ jumps. The last story was written after an interview with Dan BC who was there and saw the event. Dan has been jumping around 30 years and has over 25,000 jumps. I have known Rich for over 30 years and Dan around 15. The integrity of both men is above reproach.

In my opinion Rich reported accurately what Dan said to him and said Dan said accurately described the incident as he saw it.

Sparky


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Sep 27, 2012, 1:04 AM
Post #45 of 228 (2357 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Disclaimer: I was not there and did not see the event.

Rich Brooks is the reporter that wrote the article for Press Enterprise. Rich has been jumping over 40 years and has about 7,000+ jumps. The last story was written after an interview with Dan BC who was there and saw the event. Dan has been jumping around 30 years and has over 25,000 jumps. I have known Rich for over 30 years and Dan around 15. The integrity of both men is above reproach.

In my opinion Rich reported accurately what Dan said to him and said Dan said accurately described the incident as he saw it.

Sparky
I know Dan...great guy I've known for years.
I'm sure if you're talking to a reporter you'll explain things differently, than talking to a skydiver.
I didn't read Dan's full recollection of what happened, so I can't speak on that.
I don't think the integrity of either person is at question here, but let's not place jump numbers with integrity.
I viewed the main canopy entangled and falling straight down...there was barely any inflation, then she cutaway @400ft.
Regardless of anyone's account, would anybody cut a good parachute @400ft? This thing was a balled up piece of garbage 100%, entangled in another main.
There was no way it was possible to land her main.
Far too often in this sport, is experience held up on a pedestal.
You know how many people with 4000 jumps, who can barely even land their canopy?...no less fly well...
I've seen people who work in skydiving who are good at doing tandems...can't fly much worth of anything or land a canopy with any real grace....because they have thousands of jumps...does this make their opinion factual? Come on.


Merkur  (D 27990)

Sep 27, 2012, 3:59 AM
Post #46 of 228 (2271 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any news on Irinas condition?


majorsky  (D 3366)

Sep 27, 2012, 4:37 AM
Post #47 of 228 (2235 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear friends,
Few days ago our dearest friend Irina Sinitsina had a skydiving accident. Since Irina now is unconscious, and her son is a minor, friends and colleagues assigned Oleg Artemyev, who is a well-known person in skydiving society and a long-standing friend of Irina to open a bank account for her and her son.
Funds can be transferred to the account either in US dollars or Euros.

Details US Dollars funds transfer:
Bank: SBERBANK
SWIFT-код: SABRRUMM
Bank address: Moscow, Russian Federation,
Krasnopresnenskoye Branch № 9038 / 1758
Beneficiary name: Artemyev Oleg Vladimirovich
Beneficiary account number 40817 840 9 3817 0001756
$ USD - JPMorgan Chase Bank NA, New York, NY 0011909256 CHASUS33

Details Euro funds transfer
Bank: SBERBANK
SWIFT-код: SABRRUMM
Bank address: Moscow, Russian Federation,
Krasnopresnenskoye Branch № 9038 / 1758
Beneficiary name: Artemyev Oleg Vladimirovich
Beneficiary account number 40817 978 0 3817 0001078
EUR - Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt am Main 10094987261000 DEUTDEFF

Details of payment: Transfer of donations


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 27, 2012, 4:44 AM
Post #48 of 228 (2220 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors.

You're shocked? You might actually be completely wrong.

There was video of the collision, and if the Crossfire opened straight, or in any way that did ot contribute to the collision, that would be the reason that it wasn't mentioned.

If this was a mystery collision, with no video and no idea how it happened, your 'theory' would be a good one. Given that video was available, and I'm sure it was picked apart frame-by-frame in the aftermath, I would suggest that the Crossfire was not a factor.


BigBUG  (D License)

Sep 27, 2012, 5:03 AM
Post #49 of 228 (2200 views)
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Re: [Merkur] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

She is still in coma and being air transferred to Moscow by Russian Ministry of Emergencies' plane.

Bank detail for those who is willing to help are above.

Thanks for support.


5.samadhi

Sep 27, 2012, 7:38 AM
Post #50 of 228 (2078 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors.

You're shocked? You might actually be completely wrong.

There was video of the collision, and if the Crossfire opened straight, or in any way that did ot contribute to the collision, that would be the reason that it wasn't mentioned.

If this was a mystery collision, with no video and no idea how it happened, your 'theory' would be a good one. Given that video was available, and I'm sure it was picked apart frame-by-frame in the aftermath, I would suggest that the Crossfire was not a factor.
oh thats great so you are denying the elliptical canopies open up offheading more than square low aspect ratios?


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