Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012

 


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 23, 2012, 2:20 PM
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Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012 Can't Post

Has anyone heard of an injury to a woman at Perris today, 9/23/2012?

Sparky


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Oct 2, 2012, 6:35 AM)


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Sep 23, 2012, 2:39 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.pe.com/...oderate-injuries.ece

I got word it was a low altitude canopy collision or wrap. One jumper cut away and landed uneventful, and the woman injured landed under her reserve but may have been spinning. Both were on the wingsuit big way.

Second hand info... I was not there. Glad to hear in the report that she was stable on the life flight! Glad the other jumper was OK!


flyingmontana  (D 31509)

Sep 23, 2012, 4:46 PM
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Re: [LyraM45] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't see the collision but did see the injured woman cut away (very low, looked like 500-700 feet) and she was NOT spinning when she landed under the reserve. It looked like it opened fast and completely, but she didn't appear to flare at all, maybe didn't have time to grab her toggles.




TheBachelor  (D 22560)

Sep 24, 2012, 6:47 AM
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Re: [flyingmontana] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didn't see the collision but did see the injured woman cut away (very low, looked like 500-700 feet) and she was NOT spinning when she landed under the reserve. It looked like it opened fast and completely, but she didn't appear to flare at all, maybe didn't have time to grab her toggles.

I saw the same thing. VERY low cutaway. From the time her reserve opened until she hit the ground was about 3 seconds. I didn't see a flare.

Word was that she had some sort of airway obstruction when they got to her. The obstruction was cleared and "her color came back."


Marysia

Sep 24, 2012, 7:31 AM
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Re: [TheBachelor] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

She was unconscious?


grimmie  (D 18890)

Sep 24, 2012, 4:06 PM
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Re: [Marysia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

She is in very serious condition.Unsure


piisfish

Sep 24, 2012, 4:13 PM
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Re: [grimmie] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Name available ?


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 24, 2012, 5:38 PM
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Re: [piisfish] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I heard she was a Russsian lady. No idea of the name.
I saw what (appeared) to be one side released and one still attached.
Watched her fallling thinking RESERVE DAMN IT!! as she was way to low and still falling fast.
Main cleared and reserve was THERE (skyhook?) at what appeared to be 100-200' agl.
Fully inflated and looked good. (straight) at which point i turned away and thought. Thank god!
Later (heard) she was entangeled with the other canopy but it didn't (look) that way to me?
Didn't see the collision. But did see another cut away canopy. Hope she fully recovers!


juliashato

Sep 24, 2012, 6:08 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

The name is Irina Sinisyna, she is the best Russian woman skydiver. Extremely experienced. On July 2012 she was a leader and organizer of 100 women formation in Kolomna(record for Russia). Succesful businesswoman and mother.


piisfish

Sep 25, 2012, 4:08 AM
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Re: [juliashato] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Many thoughts out for Irina.

Does anybody know if the necessary is being done with Skydivers Unite in order to raise funds for her/her family ?


BigBUG  (D License)

Sep 25, 2012, 9:21 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

There sure soon will be an account to raise funds. I am not sure about Russian finance laws - it could be difficult to get money from over the border, but I hope this will be sorted out.
Irina is well-known person and surely we will welcome anyone who want to help.


piisfish

Sep 25, 2012, 10:48 AM
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I was thinking about the US bills to pay, plane tickets to fly family to California for a visit if needed etc


freeflyn  (D License)

Sep 25, 2012, 1:40 PM
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Re: [TheBachelor] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can anyone comment about the circumstances leading up to the canopy collision.


TheBachelor  (D 22560)

Sep 25, 2012, 2:11 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Per her Facebook page :https://www.facebook.com/irina.sinitsina.1, she suffered a "Severe traumatic brain injury." (Translated from Russian). Blue Skies Magazine has a brief article about the incident, but there's nothing new there.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 25, 2012, 5:44 PM
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Re: [freeflyn] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

No idea except that it was dureing a big way.


Skybear

Sep 26, 2012, 1:24 AM
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Re: [freeflyn] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can anyone comment about the circumstances leading up to the canopy collision.

At least one of them had a bad off-heading opening. Although they broke off as planned and separation seemed to be good they collided about five seconds after opening. One canopy was a Crossfire 2 loaded at about 1.6-1.7, the other canopy is not known to me.

I do not think that the choice of canopy is the main cause for the bad opening and the results, but it shows me that HP canopies and bigways do not fit well together. This is not about wingsuiting but about every bigway where separation is rather tight due to the sheer amount of people in the air. Rather have a big and slow canopy for stuff like this. This is my personal conclusion and others might disagree.


padraigbrowne  (E 507)

Sep 26, 2012, 3:11 AM
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http://www.pe.com/...-on-life-support.ece
Unsure
But roughly five seconds after opening their chutes, Sinitsina and a male skydiver collided, said Dan Brodsky-Chenfeld, manager of Perris Valley Skydiving.

“He is fine. He says (Sinitsina’s) foot brushed his head,” Brodsky-Chenfeld said. “That (initially) was the extent of it.”

But the parachute of the male skydiver, whose name has not been released, wrapped around Sinitsina’s body. So the male jumper jettisoned his deflated chute and landed safely beneath his emergency chute.

Sinitsina then faced a choice: She could land her fully inflated parachute, towing her companion’s deflated chute as if it were a banner, or she could jettison her main parachute and use her emergency chute.

She jettisoned her main parachute, and her emergency chute opened fully and properly, though turning, Brodsky-Chenfeld said. In the process, her companion’s discarded parachute floated away from her, Brodsky-Chenfeld said.

At that point, Sinitsina was no more than 400 feet above the ground. Her emergency chute made two complete turns and was leveling off when she landed, said Brodsky-Chenfeld, who witnessed the landing.

“It was coming down – and moving forward – a little faster than would be ideal for a landing,” he recalled. “But she had a parachute over her head. I was expecting her to be okay.”

Instead, her body pitched forward as she touched down, and she struck her head, Brodsky-Chenfeld said. She had no other injuries, he said.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Sep 26, 2012, 4:48 AM
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In reply to:
Instead, her body pitched forward as she touched down, and she struck her head, Brodsky-Chenfeld said. She had no other injuries, he said.

(I may have missed it, if so sorry...)
Any information on what kind of helmet she might have been wearing?
Best wishes for a quick recovery.
JW


pms07  (D 7571)

Sep 26, 2012, 5:02 AM
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Re: [fcajump] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Irina was wearing a Phantom X full-face helmet.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Sep 26, 2012, 5:08 AM
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Re: [pms07] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Irina was wearing a Phantom X full-face helmet.

Thanks. While I am pro-helmet use, even the best can only do so much. Unsure
Hoping for a speedy/full recovery.
JW


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 26, 2012, 7:43 AM
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Re: [Skybear] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is not about wingsuiting but about every bigway where separation is rather tight due to the sheer amount of people in the air..

Just how "big" was the wingsuit "bigway"?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 26, 2012, 7:46 AM
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In reply to:
But the parachute of the male skydiver, whose name has not been released, wrapped around Sinitsina’s body. So the male jumper jettisoned his deflated chute and landed safely beneath his emergency chute.

Sinitsina then faced a choice: She could land her fully inflated parachute, towing her companion’s deflated chute as if it were a banner, or she could jettison her main parachute and use her emergency chute.
EPs for wraps.



In reply to:
She jettisoned her main parachute, and her emergency chute opened fully and properly,.
Lucky that.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Sep 26, 2012, 7:47 AM)


Skybear

Sep 26, 2012, 7:55 AM
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In reply to:
Just how "big" was the wingsuit "bigway"?

This one was a 98-way. Breakoff of the leading 9-way was conducted at 3.5k. This allows 5 to 6 seconds of high-speed flying and still enough altitude for a calm pull.


piisfish

Sep 26, 2012, 7:56 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
This is not about wingsuiting but about every bigway where separation is rather tight due to the sheer amount of people in the air..

Just how "big" was the wingsuit "bigway"?
around 100 performers, plus videos (6 I think). Big enough to be called BIGway


(This post was edited by piisfish on Sep 26, 2012, 7:56 AM)


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 9:23 AM
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Re: [fcajump] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok i'm confused.
I'm no expert and was a bit overwhelmed as i thought i was going to watch another jumper bounce.
And i did not see the collision. Nor it's immediate aftermath.
I was on the patio looking in another direction when a non jumper spotted her and said. Oh my god!
When i saw her. All i saw was a jumper in a pure verticale drop with no forward movement.
There was NO CHOICE in landing like that! Had she already cut away her canopy? And was that his canopy still attached to her?
I (had thought) that it may have been a skyhook deployment becasue the reserve was out so quickly after it broke away.
But i guess it could have seperated as a result of her reserve activation making it (look) that way?
Like i said i'm just confused. And am trying to figure out what i saw.


flyingmontana  (D 31509)

Sep 26, 2012, 9:55 AM
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Airborne. Didn't see the collision, but saw her falling straight down under a streamer, seeming to struggle to cut away till finally the streamer separated from her and the reserve came out FAST. There was no way she could have landed what she had above her head before the cutaway.
I also did not see the reserve make the turns that Dan BC describes, but I tend to trust him more than myself, so maybe my memory is flawed there. I thought the reserve seemed to make a good (though fast) descent.


5.samadhi

Sep 26, 2012, 9:56 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

were there any rules for jumping an elliptical during the wingsuit bigway...if not why not? It seems stupid to jump an elliptical during a wingsuit bigway. Given an offheading correction will be slower due to needing to unzip arm wings.

Given the recent problems with collisions after wingsuit RW jumps it seems clear that the hesitation a jumper experiences due to the constrictions of the suit outweigh the ability to gain separation due to forward movement of the suit.

Is that clear to everybody else? Why don't we establish a principle where we jump square canopies during WS bigways?????? At least we will minimize the chance of offheadings (no matter how many mad skillz the jumper has).

Right tool for the right job...


tbrown  (D 6533)

Sep 26, 2012, 12:38 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
were there any rules for jumping an elliptical during the wingsuit bigway...if not why not? It seems stupid to jump an elliptical during a wingsuit bigway. Given an offheading correction will be slower due to needing to unzip arm wings.

These were world class wingsuiters. I'm not a wingsuiter myself, but I've learned that people in different disciplines can - and do - make choices that don't seem to make sense to those ofus with less experience. This is a sport where we all make decisions about what degree of risk we are willing to assume.

Given the recent problems with collisions after wingsuit RW jumps it seems clear that the hesitation a jumper experiences due to the constrictions of the suit outweigh the ability to gain separation due to forward movement of the suit.

Haven't heard of any unusual number of canopy collisions among wingsuiters. Canopy collisions can happen to anyone - and they do. Last year at Perris we lost two instructors who were virtually the only people in the sky.

Is that clear to everybody else? Why don't we establish a principle where we jump square canopies during WS bigways?????? At least we will minimize the chance of offheadings (no matter how many mad skillz the jumper has).

The only thing that's clear is that you have rather strong opinions on the subject, with rather low experience. In fact, the wingsuiting community might EVOLVE their own concepts about what kind of canopies are or are not appropriate. The organizers of this event could have imposed their own rules about canopies - but didn't. Our sport is not overly enthusiastic about making new rules to solve our problems. And for good reason.

Right tool for the right job...

Maybe so, but I'm not about to tell wingsuiters what to do. Let's let them solve their own problems.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 26, 2012, 2:16 PM
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+ 1. As other disciplines have evolved with a bit of trial and error, WS is a work in progress. Problems (and solutions) become apparent as you progress along the path.

Tailstrikes seem to be another aspect that needs a solution.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 2:36 PM
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Re: [flyingmontana] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't see the landing as i turned away in relief once i saw her reserve open in what looked straight and level.
I watched a jumper bounce once before and had thought i was about to again.
So once that threat was past and she (looked) ok i was highly relieved.
But i watched her falling straight down with a canopy flapping above her.
Which i just assumed was hers and she was trying to clear.
I watched her descend for several seconds and thought she was focused on the malfunction and not alltitude.
Now i'm wondering if she cut away her canopy but remained tangled with his and fought that to long?
I definitly think a reserve should have been out sooner based on how low she was.
But like i said i'm no expert and am not trying to blame anyone.
Just understand what happened and why. I fully understand that shit happens.
And that anyone can lose alltitude awareness in an emergency.
And that's what i thought i saw! I've seen several cut ways.
And that reserve deployment was FAST!!! Any longer and she would have bounced!
Based on what i saw she focused on the problem for to long and not the solution as she was well below 1000 feet and still falling.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 4:07 PM
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok i just read the article again and am thinking this has to be a case of a reporter not knowing what the hell they are talking about.
And misqouting someone who tried to explain what happened.
It says her parachute was inflated with his wrapped around her body and streaming behind her like a banner.
Why would anyone cut away an inflated canopy with another one wrapped around their body which is not inflated?
And then try to clear the entanglement while in freefall? Versus while flying with an inflated canopy above their head?
I might not be an expert. But that does not seem like a good choice to me!


jimjumper  (D 11137)

Sep 26, 2012, 4:47 PM
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rich Brooks is the reporter that wrote both of the PE articles. He has thousands of jumps and has been jumping for well over 30 years mostly at Perris and Elsinore.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 5:19 PM
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Ok so what gives then?
I still don't see why anyone would cut away an inflated canopy while another is wrapped around their body?
Wouldn't you want to keep the inflated canopy and attempt to clear the entangelment?
Versus chopping while entangled? And then trying to clear it?
This story just doesn't make any sence at all!


grimmie  (D 18890)

Sep 26, 2012, 6:42 PM
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

A canopy collision is a violent event in most cases. The jumper may have been injured, disoriented or incapacitated in some way.
Wearing a wingsuit adds to the struggle for toggles.
What we witness from the ground is not the same perspective that the jumper has. Maybe she thought her main was damaged and not fit to land.
There are many scenarios that could make sense.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 7:36 PM
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Re: [grimmie] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree there are a lot of unknowens. And it would be a nightmare.
But my point was that the way the story was written made no sence!
It claimed she had an inflated canopy over her head.
And a deflated one wrapped around her body streamering behind her like a banner.
So her choices were to (try and land like that? Or use her emergency chute?)
I can see more choices then that as a novice! Like trying to clear the entanglement before chopping and going back into freefall while still entangled!
I'm not trying to second guess her. Just questioning the way the story reads.
Especially if it's writer has thousands of jumps! Is this reallly the ep to teach for an entanglement?
Thanks but no thanks! If i'm ever entangled with a good canopy above me?
I really hope the first thing i do is not chop. And then try and clear the entanglement!
Maybe she did? Maybe she didn't? And if so maybe there were reasons for it?
But to suggest that those are the only two options at that point seems wrong to me!


pms07  (D 7571)

Sep 26, 2012, 7:55 PM
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While it may not make "sence" to you, the quotes in the story describing the sequence of events are accurate.


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:32 PM
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree there are a lot of unknowens. And it would be a nightmare.
But my point was that the way the story was written made no sence!
It claimed she had an inflated canopy over her head.
And a deflated one wrapped around her body streamering behind her like a banner.
So her choices were to (try and land like that? Or use her emergency chute?)
I can see more choices then that as a novice! Like trying to clear the entanglement before chopping and going back into freefall while still entangled!
I'm not trying to second guess her. Just questioning the way the story reads.
Especially if it's writer has thousands of jumps! Is this reallly the ep to teach for an entanglement?
Thanks but no thanks! If i'm ever entangled with a good canopy above me?
I really hope the first thing i do is not chop. And then try and clear the entanglement!
Maybe she did? Maybe she didn't? And if so maybe there were reasons for it?
But to suggest that those are the only two options at that point seems wrong to me!
Saying the main was inflated, was a bit stretched. It was barely inflated and she was coming straight down with it. It's not as if she has a good canopy and towing another one with her.
It's possible she was waiting for the main to catch more air to fully inflate, while hoping the other main would untangle from it.
Once this didn't seem to be happening, she chopped it @400ft roughly. It's hard to say why she didn't flare to land, but after the reserve came out...it appeared that there was zero input in the canopy.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 8:34 PM
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Ok fine. Point out a spelling error if that's what you think is important here.
But me and Flyingmontana both saw a jumper falling under a collapsed canopy.
Not a cut away from a fully inflated canopy! So i'm wondering if she cut away before i saw it. And was streamering his or what?
Because as i stated earlier. I did not see the collision. Or it's immediate aftermath.
And no the idea that the only choices in such a situation as discribed are (landing like that)(or useing the emergency chute) does not make sense TO ME!!!!
That's why i question it! Is that really the proper ep?
I sure as hell hope you don't say yes someone should immeditally chop if entangled with another canopy. But theirs is still inflated and flying fine!


Blsthndl  (D License)

Sep 26, 2012, 9:00 PM
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My understanding is that Irina hit a wall of the canal which is about 8 ft high and hard as cement. If by chance she had been falling a short distance away she may well have landed without injury. The walls can be very difficult to notice from above.


5.samadhi

Sep 26, 2012, 9:44 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
were there any rules for jumping an elliptical during the wingsuit bigway...if not why not? It seems stupid to jump an elliptical during a wingsuit bigway. Given an offheading correction will be slower due to needing to unzip arm wings.

These were world class wingsuiters. I'm not a wingsuiter myself, but I've learned that people in different disciplines can - and do - make choices that don't seem to make sense to those ofus with less experience. This is a sport where we all make decisions about what degree of risk we are willing to assume.

Given the recent problems with collisions after wingsuit RW jumps it seems clear that the hesitation a jumper experiences due to the constrictions of the suit outweigh the ability to gain separation due to forward movement of the suit.

Haven't heard of any unusual number of canopy collisions among wingsuiters. Canopy collisions can happen to anyone - and they do. Last year at Perris we lost two instructors who were virtually the only people in the sky.

Is that clear to everybody else? Why don't we establish a principle where we jump square canopies during WS bigways?????? At least we will minimize the chance of offheadings (no matter how many mad skillz the jumper has).

The only thing that's clear is that you have rather strong opinions on the subject, with rather low experience. In fact, the wingsuiting community might EVOLVE their own concepts about what kind of canopies are or are not appropriate. The organizers of this event could have imposed their own rules about canopies - but didn't. Our sport is not overly enthusiastic about making new rules to solve our problems. And for good reason.

Right tool for the right job...

Maybe so, but I'm not about to tell wingsuiters what to do. Let's let them solve their own problems.
You're funny. I am much less hesitant to voice my opinion when somebody does something stupid than you are. I do offer my condolences and positive energy to the injured and hope a full speedy recovery.

I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors. They are known to have a much higher rate of malfunction on wingsuit jumps, and open offheading much more often on skydives period.

It doesn't take hundreds of WS jumps to know that flying an elliptical canopy (crossfire2) during a wingsuit bigway is a poor choice. You're wrapped up in a straightjacket until you can unzip yourself (precious time in case of an imminent canopy collision). Avoiding a canopy can come down to fractions of a second in the worst case scenario. In a wingsuit you are spending those fractions of seconds unzipping that you could be using to avoid.

By the way there was a recent canopy collision during a wingsuit jump that involved ellipticals iirc. I think people are becoming complacent thinking the horizontal separation should be so great no problem will occur in case of an offheading. However, this is turning out to not be the case and the sky is turning out to be smaller given that we are wrapping ourselves in nylon straight jackets and flying relative.


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Sep 26, 2012, 9:49 PM)


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 26, 2012, 11:15 PM
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kynan.
Yeah that's what i saw as well. Not flying under a good canopy as the story claimed.
So i was wondering if she had cut away before i saw her and was still entangled with his canopy?
And i questioned the wisdom of the statement that in the event that she did have a good canopy above her.
And his was wrapped around her body. Then her choices were to land like that. Or cut away.
I really hope she pulls through this! And am just trying to understand what happened.
Because the stroy did not jive with the part of it that i did see.


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Sep 26, 2012, 11:31 PM
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In reply to:
Kynan.
Yeah that's what i saw as well. Not flying under a good canopy as the story claimed.
So i was wondering if she had cut away before i saw her and was still entangled with his canopy?
And i questioned the wisdom of the statement that in the event that she did have a good canopy above her.
And his was wrapped around her body. Then her choices were to land like that. Or cut away.
I really hope she pulls through this! And am just trying to understand what happened.
Because the stroy did not jive with the part of it that i did see.
You're correct in pointing that out. There is no way I would call her main canopy "being under a good canopy"...it was a mess and she was dropping straight down.
She was under her main, but it was barely inflated...probably due to the other canopy's obstruction. If she didn't chop, she would be without a doubt gone.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 26, 2012, 11:32 PM
Post #44 of 228 (2433 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer: I was not there and did not see the event.

Rich Brooks is the reporter that wrote the article for Press Enterprise. Rich has been jumping over 40 years and has about 7,000+ jumps. The last story was written after an interview with Dan BC who was there and saw the event. Dan has been jumping around 30 years and has over 25,000 jumps. I have known Rich for over 30 years and Dan around 15. The integrity of both men is above reproach.

In my opinion Rich reported accurately what Dan said to him and said Dan said accurately described the incident as he saw it.

Sparky


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Sep 27, 2012, 1:04 AM
Post #45 of 228 (2372 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Disclaimer: I was not there and did not see the event.

Rich Brooks is the reporter that wrote the article for Press Enterprise. Rich has been jumping over 40 years and has about 7,000+ jumps. The last story was written after an interview with Dan BC who was there and saw the event. Dan has been jumping around 30 years and has over 25,000 jumps. I have known Rich for over 30 years and Dan around 15. The integrity of both men is above reproach.

In my opinion Rich reported accurately what Dan said to him and said Dan said accurately described the incident as he saw it.

Sparky
I know Dan...great guy I've known for years.
I'm sure if you're talking to a reporter you'll explain things differently, than talking to a skydiver.
I didn't read Dan's full recollection of what happened, so I can't speak on that.
I don't think the integrity of either person is at question here, but let's not place jump numbers with integrity.
I viewed the main canopy entangled and falling straight down...there was barely any inflation, then she cutaway @400ft.
Regardless of anyone's account, would anybody cut a good parachute @400ft? This thing was a balled up piece of garbage 100%, entangled in another main.
There was no way it was possible to land her main.
Far too often in this sport, is experience held up on a pedestal.
You know how many people with 4000 jumps, who can barely even land their canopy?...no less fly well...
I've seen people who work in skydiving who are good at doing tandems...can't fly much worth of anything or land a canopy with any real grace....because they have thousands of jumps...does this make their opinion factual? Come on.


Merkur  (D 27990)

Sep 27, 2012, 3:59 AM
Post #46 of 228 (2286 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any news on Irinas condition?


majorsky  (D 3366)

Sep 27, 2012, 4:37 AM
Post #47 of 228 (2250 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear friends,
Few days ago our dearest friend Irina Sinitsina had a skydiving accident. Since Irina now is unconscious, and her son is a minor, friends and colleagues assigned Oleg Artemyev, who is a well-known person in skydiving society and a long-standing friend of Irina to open a bank account for her and her son.
Funds can be transferred to the account either in US dollars or Euros.

Details US Dollars funds transfer:
Bank: SBERBANK
SWIFT-код: SABRRUMM
Bank address: Moscow, Russian Federation,
Krasnopresnenskoye Branch № 9038 / 1758
Beneficiary name: Artemyev Oleg Vladimirovich
Beneficiary account number 40817 840 9 3817 0001756
$ USD - JPMorgan Chase Bank NA, New York, NY 0011909256 CHASUS33

Details Euro funds transfer
Bank: SBERBANK
SWIFT-код: SABRRUMM
Bank address: Moscow, Russian Federation,
Krasnopresnenskoye Branch № 9038 / 1758
Beneficiary name: Artemyev Oleg Vladimirovich
Beneficiary account number 40817 978 0 3817 0001078
EUR - Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt am Main 10094987261000 DEUTDEFF

Details of payment: Transfer of donations


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 27, 2012, 4:44 AM
Post #48 of 228 (2235 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors.

You're shocked? You might actually be completely wrong.

There was video of the collision, and if the Crossfire opened straight, or in any way that did ot contribute to the collision, that would be the reason that it wasn't mentioned.

If this was a mystery collision, with no video and no idea how it happened, your 'theory' would be a good one. Given that video was available, and I'm sure it was picked apart frame-by-frame in the aftermath, I would suggest that the Crossfire was not a factor.


BigBUG  (D License)

Sep 27, 2012, 5:03 AM
Post #49 of 228 (2215 views)
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Re: [Merkur] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

She is still in coma and being air transferred to Moscow by Russian Ministry of Emergencies' plane.

Bank detail for those who is willing to help are above.

Thanks for support.


5.samadhi

Sep 27, 2012, 7:38 AM
Post #50 of 228 (2093 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors.

You're shocked? You might actually be completely wrong.

There was video of the collision, and if the Crossfire opened straight, or in any way that did ot contribute to the collision, that would be the reason that it wasn't mentioned.

If this was a mystery collision, with no video and no idea how it happened, your 'theory' would be a good one. Given that video was available, and I'm sure it was picked apart frame-by-frame in the aftermath, I would suggest that the Crossfire was not a factor.
oh thats great so you are denying the elliptical canopies open up offheading more than square low aspect ratios?






normiss  (D 28356)

Sep 27, 2012, 7:52 AM
Post #53 of 228 (3061 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Packing, line stow length, bridle length, PC size all have more to do with wingie off heading openings than canopy choice.
While I will agree that there is no need for pocket rocket canopies on wingsuit jumps, especially large flocks, it doesn't appear to have much if anything to do with this incident.

Wingsuit incidents are clearly on the rise. This is the second canopy collision during break-off in a very short time frame.
Maybe we should look for the similarities and focus more on the break-off dynamics that are clearly not working for some formations.




airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #55 of 228 (3005 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kynan.
Thanks for a factual reply. based on what you saw. Versus how experienced someone else is who is (claimed) to have said something.
I don't know the reporter. Or the entierty of what they wrote. Or what was edited.
Nor do i (know) Dan. Although i do know of him. And i wasn't trying to question his entegrity!
But i KNOW that i saw a jumper coming straight down with nothing but crap above them.
And was waiting for them to cut away. Then started thinking that they needed to just get their reserve out as they got lower.
But the story said something different! So i was trying to figure out if it was refering to the part which i did not see?
And i really am surprised that no one has commented on the stories claim that the only two choices if entangled.
With a GOOD CANOPY ABOVE YOU AND ONE WRAPPED AROUND YOUR BODY. STREAMERING BEHIND YOU LIKE A BANNER.
Is to (try and land like that) Or use your emergency chute!)
I can't imagine that Dan would actually teach that as an ep.
So figured it was a typical news stroy. And as this is a forum for skydivers thought it should be pointed out.
I believe i was taught that below 1000 feet if you do not have a good canopy above you
To just put your reserve out and hope for the best.
Is that wrong?
I realize that there is a risk of the reserve entangling with the crap that's already out.
But isn't taking that chance better then trying to clear the entanglment all the way to the ground?
And if so shouldn't it be pointed out?


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 27, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #56 of 228 (2949 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Kynan.
Thanks for a factual reply. based on what you saw. Versus how experienced someone else is who is (claimed) to have said something.
I don't know the reporter. Or the entierty of what they wrote. Or what was edited.
Nor do i (know) Dan. Although i do know of him. And i wasn't trying to question his entegrity!
But i KNOW that i saw a jumper coming straight down with nothing but crap above them.
And was waiting for them to cut away. Then started thinking that they needed to just get their reserve out as they got lower.
But the story said something different! So i was trying to figure out if it was refering to the part which i did not see?
And i really am surprised that no one has commented on the stories claim that the only two choices if entangled.
With a GOOD CANOPY ABOVE YOU AND ONE WRAPPED AROUND YOUR BODY. STREAMERING BEHIND YOU LIKE A BANNER.
Is to (try and land like that) Or use your emergency chute!)
I can't imagine that Dan would actually teach that as an ep.
So figured it was a typical news stroy. And as this is a forum for skydivers thought it should be pointed out.
I believe i was taught that below 1000 feet if you do not have a good canopy above you
To just put your reserve out and hope for the best.
Is that wrong?
I realize that there is a risk of the reserve entangling with the crap that's already out.
But isn't taking that chance better then trying to clear the entanglment all the way to the ground?
And if so shouldn't it be pointed out?

Why don't you go and introduce yourself to Dan and ask him?


(This post was edited by WickedWingsuits on Sep 27, 2012, 9:41 AM)


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 10:05 AM
Post #57 of 228 (2917 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

A.
Because i'm no longer there.
B.
Because i do not believe that he wrote a news paper article!
My questions were aimed at trying to determine if what was (reported in a news paper article) was something which i did not see.
And pointing out that (the article) did not make sense!
It had nothing to do with Dan. Except to have claimed to qoute him.
And the media often misqoutes what people say! So (i stated) that i'm sure that is not what he would teach as an ep!
Thereforth there is nothing to ask (him) as it wasn't about him!


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #58 of 228 (2891 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

But the parachute of the male skydiver, whose name has not been released, wrapped around Sinitsina’s body. So the male jumper jettisoned his deflated chute and landed safely beneath his emergency chute.

Sinitsina then faced a choice: She could land her fully inflated parachute, towing her companion’s deflated chute as if it were a banner, or she could jettison her main parachute and use her emergency chute.

That is the part of the (article) i was trying to point out!
the fact that it is wrong. And she was (not) under a good canopy is irrelavent.
But the part that claims she (was) under a good canopy and then (faced a choice) to land like that? Or jettison/cut away (while still entangled) and use her reserve is totally relevant!
Because one person with a fairly high number of jumps did claim that the article was a factual report of what did happen.
Is that really what you want some newby to think is a correct ep for an entanglement? With a good canopy above them?


(This post was edited by airborne47 on Sep 27, 2012, 10:28 AM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 27, 2012, 10:42 AM
Post #59 of 228 (2863 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Your recollection of what happened may not be accurate. That is not uncommon with eye witnesses to these kind of events. Memory doesn't ever work as well as photos and videos.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 27, 2012, 11:16 AM
Post #60 of 228 (2817 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the
>elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors.

All modern canopies are elliptical to some degree, and ellipticalness alone is a poor way to determine a canopy's on-heading performance. Some square (or close to square) canopies open poorly; some very elliptical canopies open reliably on heading. On larger formation it is important to use canopies that have good on-heading performance rather than use any particular planform.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Sep 27, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #61 of 228 (2785 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Your recollection of what happened may not be accurate. That is not uncommon with eye witnesses to these kind of events. Memory doesn't ever work as well as photos and videos.

And that applies equally to witnesses with thousands of jumps too.

One scenario: the low-timer saw her canopy from an angle where it was clear she was coming straight down with no forward movement and the canopy looked gnarly in terms of its chord, but he couldn't see that looked okay in terms of its span.

Dan saw the canopy from an angle where it may have looked open -- but its lack of forward speed was not detectable to him - and its span might have looked good but he couldn't see the chord problem.

So they are essentially both right in terms of what each of them saw.

There was a famous bad call in a Denver-San Diego NFL game a few years ago that illustrates this.

Referee Ed Hochuli, one of the best of all NFL refs, made a horrifically bad call when he said QB Jay Cutler lost the ball as his arm was going foward, making it an incomplete pass, not a fumble (which San Diego recovered).

One replay showed clearly that the ball went backward as Cutler's arm went forward, making it very clearly a fumble -- and Hochuli caught as much grief for it as the replacement ref did for his Monday Night Football call the other night because both calls changed the outcome of the game.

However, another replay from Hochuli's own angle (from behind Cutler on a straight line with the ball trajectory), showed that he literally could not see that the ball went backward when Cutler's arm went forward.

He only saw the ball flutter up in the air and extrapolated that it fluttered foward along with Cutler's forward arm movement.

Back to this incident: I trust the judgment of the jumper more than either of these eyewitnesses because she was there and she too has thousands of jumps, so if she cut away I trust that she had a good reason to do so regardless of whether a low-timer and a 25,000-jump wonder agree on what they saw.

What I want to know is:

When they found her, were her arm wings unzipped or emergency released -- or not?

Maybe someone has mentioned this info, but if so, I missed it.

Operating from the assumption that she did not unzip before the collision, my speculation is:

The wrapped canopy may have prevented her from releasing her arm wings, in which case she cut away (regardless of main condition) in order to hopefully free her arms so she could steer the canopy (it's way easier to reach silver with a wingsuit on than it is to reach toggles).

Whether this happened or she in fact a bad main canopy, she cut away pretty low, and I take the turns the canopy made before leveling out (according to Dan) as possible evidence that she was trying at that low altitude to unzip her arm wings and either:

a) didn't get it done at all before she landed; or

b) got it done in time to level out, she didn't have time to figure out that she was flying into an embankment instead of flat ground.

Knowing the condition of her arm wing zippers or releases when they found her will clarify some things about what happened and exclude others, and I think that's a critical path datum that we need to know in order to move forward productively.

44
Frown


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #62 of 228 (2567 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not just my recollection that she was coming straight down with nothing but crap above her.
But that of two others who have directly commented in this forum as well.
Which makes three jumpers who saw the exact same thing!
And are the only ones who have commented as to what happened!
I'll take that over a newspaper story which (qouted) someone. Thank you!
But as i said the fact that the story was incorrect is irrellivent.
For a jumper with several hundreds of jumps to say that the story was accurate.
When it says that with a good canopy above your head.
And a (deflated) canopy wrapped around your (body) your choices are to try and land like that. Or cut away and deploy your reserve is relevant!
I hope to god some newby didn't read and believe that?
Yes you should chop and deploy your reserve if your (canopy) is entangled with another canopy. Or anything else.
But if (you) have a (good canopy) above your head. And a (deflated) canopy wrapped around your (body)
Chopping and (trying) to clear it or trying to deploy your reserve through it is not a good option!


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 27, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #63 of 228 (2558 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to point out that while you say (Dan saw) that is not knowen as a fact.
All we have to base that assumption on so far in this thread.
Is what a reporter says Dan said! So I AM NOT trying to dispute what Dan said!
Just quetioning what happened before i and two others who have posted here saw.
Which was her coming stright down with a bad canopy above her.
And pointing out that chopping a good canopy while still entangled with another one.
And then trying to deploy your reserve through the entanglement.
Just so you can hopefully get a good canopy above you (again) is not a good option!


basehoundsam

Sep 27, 2012, 6:11 PM
Post #64 of 228 (2539 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

 You do realize that there are many situations that warrant choping under 1000 ft. A canopy transfer is one of a few options available to a competent jumper. In the end we all have to live with our choices... canopy, cutaway, and landing. Aff is basic survival .... the bare minimum to keep you alive as a low timer. AFF rules are not always the only choice, and not always the right one.
Im not saying the said jumper made good or bad choices.... just that with her jump numbers, she probably made an educated and calculated choice.

Just my .02$$






miconar  (D 1084)

Sep 27, 2012, 8:37 PM
Post #67 of 228 (2430 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear intermediate jumpers. Thank you for partaking in our (all of us) amazing sport, and thank you for participating in this open discussion of an incident which we would all like to learn from and avoid in the future.


I am not disputing the importance of asking questions and suggesting ideas for future learning for people of all experience levels, and certainly am not saying that 1st hand accounts of eye witnesses do not belong here.

I would like to suggest to you that this big way event was made out of people, just like you. Some smarter some less, some experienced, some less. Some with good gear choices, some less, some who act in ways you would agree with, some less. But all are people, with great love for our sport, including the injured jumper and the other person that was involved in the canopy collision, as well as the event organizers and other participants who knew the injured jumper before or met her during the event.

Please, for all of our sakes, yourselves included, take a deep breath before posting and make a conscious effort to lower your energy levels. An idea would carry much more weight with everyone here if it is introduced with less exclamation marks and frustration about other people's perceived inability to get what you are saying.

A person has been seriously injured. Let us honor her love of wingsuiting and skydiving by learning from any mistakes that were made in a calm and collected manner.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.


5.samadhi

Sep 27, 2012, 8:56 PM
Post #68 of 228 (2414 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I am actually shocked that I was the first person to point out the
>elliptical canopy involved as one of the main contributing factors.

All modern canopies are elliptical to some degree, and ellipticalness alone is a poor way to determine a canopy's on-heading performance. Some square (or close to square) canopies open poorly; some very elliptical canopies open reliably on heading. On larger formation it is important to use canopies that have good on-heading performance rather than use any particular planform.
do you think crossfire2 is the safest possible choice for a wingsuit bigway?


miconar  (D 1084)

Sep 27, 2012, 9:09 PM
Post #69 of 228 (2397 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
do you think crossfire2 is the safest possible choice for a wingsuit bigway?

The safest choice would have been and always will be to stay on the ground and watch all the crazy people jumping out of airplanes.

A jumper and (I believe) rigger with significantly more jumps and years in the sport then you have has already suggested to you that canopy planeform has little impact on heading performance. Take his word for it or dont.

I have jumped my crossfireII/149 for all my 500 wingsuit jumps after the intial 40 or so, including during this particular big way wingsuit event with great heading performance and have had my hands on the risers after throwing my PC out and before canopy inflation every single time with out zipping down a single zipper or puling a single wing cut away, and will show you video of that if you so desire. Educate yourself before you insist you know best.

A crossfire is a safe choice for a big way for some, and less so for others. I have had dreadful openings on rectangular planeform canopies and have been injured by a harsh opening once, and switched to the crossfire platform specifically for that reason, with great results.

YMMV. Mine did.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 27, 2012, 10:42 PM
Post #70 of 228 (2350 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>do you think crossfire2 is the safest possible choice for a wingsuit bigway?

No. Nor is there any one safest canopy, or single criteria you can use to determine the safest canopy. A Crossfire2 149 is probably a much better choice than a Pilot 90. A 100% rectangular Nova 99 is an even worse idea - despite it being the only square canopy in the list.

I typically upsize when I do big ways (>100 or so,) I've used Spectres, Safires, Crossfires and Pilots. The things to consider:

-On heading performance. Pilots and Safires are great here.

-Opening speed. When it's your job to pull at 2200 you don't want a canopy that takes 800 feet to open.

-Closing speed during impending collision. Larger canopies work well to reduce this.

-Descent rate; can it keep up with the pack? A larger Katana would be comparable to a much smaller Stiletto in terms of descent rate.

-Controllabilty. Front/rear risering is often more important when flying in a crowded pattern; being able to lose altitude without spiraling or S-turning is critical.










robinheid  (D 5533)

Sep 28, 2012, 4:58 PM
Post #75 of 228 (1793 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>do you think crossfire2 is the safest possible choice for a wingsuit bigway?

No. Nor is there any one safest canopy, or single criteria you can use to determine the safest canopy. A Crossfire2 149 is probably a much better choice than a Pilot 90. A 100% rectangular Nova 99 is an even worse idea - despite it being the only square canopy in the list.

I typically upsize when I do big ways (>100 or so,) I've used Spectres, Safires, Crossfires and Pilots. The things to consider:

-On heading performance. Pilots and Safires are great here.

-Opening speed. When it's your job to pull at 2200 you don't want a canopy that takes 800 feet to open.

-Closing speed during impending collision. Larger canopies work well to reduce this.

-Descent rate; can it keep up with the pack? A larger Katana would be comparable to a much smaller Stiletto in terms of descent rate.

-Controllabilty. Front/rear risering is often more important when flying in a crowded pattern; being able to lose altitude without spiraling or S-turning is critical.

Controllability depends on toggle access, not planform or wing loading.

So, did she get her arm wings unzipped before impact or not?

44
Frown


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 28, 2012, 10:34 PM
Post #76 of 228 (4175 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Miconar.
The reason my last post was so short was because I was done beating my head against the wall. And was going to give up.
But I want to respond to you. First of all I have nothing but praise for the lady and how she handled the situation.
I knew at the time that I was looking at an experienced jumper because world record attempts are not for amateurs like me. And she demonstrated a high level of competence.
The fact is she stayed focused and kept fighting until she got out of an entanglement. Then cut away and deployed her reserve.
Which I was extremely grateful to see because I have watched two experienced jumpers die in emergencies that were salvageable.
One cut away a malfunction and went in without ever pulling his reserve in front of a crowd of a few thousand. Including his wife and child who were standing right next to me.
The other did a low altitude downwind hook turn (below 200 feet) in 20 plus mph winds to avoid a tree landing.
And as I watched her get lower and lower I honestly thought I was about to watch another jumper die once again.
So seeing her reserve deploy was an immense relief to me. And I hope to god she pulls through this and fully recovers!
But I did get frustrated with what appears to be a snobbish attitude by some people who seem to think that without high jump numbers a person is unable to think.
The fact is the only people who claim to have witnessed this terrible event first hand and have given an account of it in this thread.
Are myself and two other jumpers. And we all saw the exact same thing. A jumper coming straight down under a bad canopy cut away at a low altitude.
But it appears that because a highly experienced and respected jumper is (reported) to have said something else in a newspaper article.
What the three of us claim to have seen is disputed or questioned by some for what appears to be a lack of jump numbers. And a newspaper article.
That I could just shrug off. But when a statement which if believed could lead to a fatality is totally ignored.
Even after I point it out several times. For what would appear to be nothing more than a snobbish attitude.
Such as addressing someone as Dear intermediate jumpers. That does frustrate the hell out of me. I do not need high jump numbers to be able to think.
And the newspaper article claimed that she had a good canopy above her. And a cut away canopy wrapped around her (body.) Streamering behind her like a banner.
Now here’s the part I STRONGLY DISPUTE. It says that at that point. Her options were to try and land like that. Or cut away and deploy her reserve.
The fact that that is not what happened is irrelevant. But to say those are the options in that scenario is highly relevant.
Even with my lack of jump numbers I can think of a far better option than chopping in that scenario. And that is to keep the good canopy above your head. While trying to clear the entanglement.
Because if you chop while your body is still wrapped. You will have virtually no chance to clear the entanglement.
As it will get much tighter as you accelerate because the canopy will create a lot more drag. You will also have far less time to do so.
Giving you no choice but to try and deploy a reserve through an entanglement. And if you get lucky and get a clean deployment?
You will be right back where you started. With a good canopy above you and entangled with another. But at a far lower altitude.
With one less option. Because if the worst case scenario happens? And the canopy which you are wrapped in entangles with your reserve.
You will not be able to attempt to put your reserve out.
I hope to god no one read that crap and believed it. Just because an intermediate jumper said it was wrong. And was ignored by the sky gods. Because it could easily kill them.
I’m done here and have nothing else to say except to once again state that I hope to god she pulls through this and fully recovers.
And that my thoughts and prayers are with her and her loved ones.


miconar  (D 1084)

Sep 28, 2012, 11:20 PM
Post #77 of 228 (4150 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I apologise. I wasn't suggesting you need high jump numbers to think, and while I doubt you were seeking my approval, your posts clearly show you to be a critical, thinking individual. Thank you for sharing your info with everyone. Though I was on that jump, I never saw anyone get hurt that bad or worse and can only imagine the difficulty for you.

I do see a link between jump numbers and energy levels that bothered me. A discussion like this should not have the energy levels of an angry argument, or so I feel.

My reply was meant for more then one person, you were simply the last poster To use multiple !!s. Perhaps I was as you say, being condescending, and for that I apologize. I will leave this at that since by now I am very off topic, and we can continue this via pm if you wish.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 29, 2012, 3:09 AM
Post #78 of 228 (4115 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you considered the possibility that what you saw was not a cutaway but the other persons canopy clearing her body after she cutaway her main? Maybe that was why she was coming straight down.

Sparky


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 29, 2012, 7:56 AM
Post #79 of 228 (4040 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes i have.
Which is why i suggested exactly that as a possibility early on when i stated i did not see the collision. Nor it's immediate aftermath.
And was wondering what happened before i saw her falling. Because what i saw was not what the story stated.
But no eye witness claimed to have seen such a thing.
And two did claim to see exactly what i did. There are still a lot of unknowens and always will be.
But that does not take away from the articles statement being wrong in saying (in the scenerio described.)
That the choices are to try and land like that. Or cut away and deploy a reserve.
I can see how someone disoreintated after a collision might cut away?
But to say those are your choices is the part i strongly disagree with.
And am trying to point out. And why i chose to respond again.
I watched a static line student doing a prcp cut away a perfect canopy once.
And when he was asked why he did it? His response was that he got confused.
And couldn't remember which handle he was supposed to pull. So he pulled the red one.
And i'm sure everyone else has seen newbies do some entertaining things.
The point i'm trying to make here is that you don't know what a person will remember in a stress situation.
And i am worried that someone some day will have a good canopy above their head.
With a deflated cut away wrapped around their body. And remember this. And cut away!
Which is why i keep trying to steer the conversation back to that.
And am having a real hard time understanding why not one person has said.
Yeah there are other options then trying to land like that? Or chopping a good canopy while your (body) is wrapped




mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 29, 2012, 11:33 AM
Post #81 of 228 (3946 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But that does not take away from the articles statement being wrong in saying (in the scenerio described.)
That the choices are to try and land like that. Or cut away and deploy a reserve.

Are you saying there is a third choice? The way you write makes it hard to understand your meaning.

Sparky


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Sep 29, 2012, 3:16 PM
Post #82 of 228 (3857 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A.
Because i'm no longer there.

You seem to still have a lot of unanswered questions about what you saw and the outcome of the events. At least I think that is your point.

I suggest you use the magic of technology, either phone or email to contact the guy you think made a statement that is contrary to yours.

Regardless of what reality is I bet you will learn something from the conversation. Try it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 29, 2012, 4:29 PM
Post #83 of 228 (3824 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

WTF...was her problem a wrap or an entanglement?

You guys are all over the place using one term and then the other as if they are the same thing. Not so.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Sep 29, 2012, 4:39 PM)


5.samadhi

Sep 29, 2012, 7:51 PM
Post #84 of 228 (3749 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

^ for those who don't know what this good sir is talking about: http://parachutistonline.com/...ing-canopy-collision

I thought this part of Crouch's article was particularly pertinent to this discussion:

Quote:
The higher the wing loading, the more violent the collision will be, and the less likely it will be that one or both pilots will survive. Avoidance is truly the only solution when it comes to canopy collisions at high wing loadings.
blue skies Unsure


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Sep 29, 2012, 7:54 PM)


miconar  (D 1084)

Sep 29, 2012, 8:14 PM
Post #85 of 228 (3728 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
^ for those who don't know what this good sir is talking about: http://parachutistonline.com/...ing-canopy-collision

I thought this part of Crouch's article was particularly pertinent to this discussion:

Quote:
The higher the wing loading, the more violent the collision will be, and the less likely it will be that one or both pilots will survive. Avoidance is truly the only solution when it comes to canopy collisions at high wing loadings.
blue skies Unsure

So now we are done with square vs elliptical and on to WL. Ill bite: do you know what were the WL of the canopies involved, and if you don't, why do you think that part of the article is particularly pertinent to this discussion?


Divalent  (C 40494)

Sep 29, 2012, 8:39 PM
Post #86 of 228 (3714 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

This apparently is a video (from a long distance away) of the incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nVF1IvKqLc


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 29, 2012, 8:40 PM
Post #87 of 228 (3711 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

No i am saying there is a third choice in the scenerio described in the paper. And have said so. More then once.
Here once again is a copied and pasted section from the article.
It's on page one 15th posting down with a link. And (supposedly) qoutes Dan.
Sorry that my computer skills suck.
Notice at no point does it even suggest trying to clear the body wrap (according to article)
It just says try to land like that. Without trying to untangle?
Or cut away and deploy the reserve. Without trying to untangle?
I say keeping a good canopy above your head and trying to clear the wrap/entanglement.
Leaving your reserve deployable in the event that it does move up and entangle with the main is a MUCH BETTER choice.
Then simply chopping a good canopy while wrapped or entangled with another.
And then trying to deploy a reserve through the mess.
But it appears that because the article mentions Dan as its source.
That many want to to just dismiss what i have said. And instead focus on my experience level.
Or what me and two other jumppers saw. Which has not been refuted by anyone.
Except for a news paper article. So for the sake of discussion.
And in an attempt to help educate others so they might survive such a situation.
Let's assume the article is a correct description of what happend.
And the only 3 jumpers to say what we saw are all wrong.
With that in mind. Would you agree with how the article says to handle such a situation? Or the way i suggest?

But roughly five seconds after opening their chutes, Sinitsina and a male skydiver collided, said Dan Brodsky-Chenfeld, manager of Perris Valley Skydiving.

“He is fine. He says (Sinitsina’s) foot brushed his head,” Brodsky-Chenfeld said. “That (initially) was the extent of it.”

But the parachute of the male skydiver, whose name has not been released, wrapped around Sinitsina’s body. So the male jumper jettisoned his deflated chute and landed safely beneath his emergency chute.

Sinitsina then faced a choice: She could land her fully inflated parachute, towing her companion’s deflated chute as if it were a banner, or she could jettison her main parachute and use her emergency chute.


(This post was edited by airborne47 on Sep 29, 2012, 9:03 PM)


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 29, 2012, 8:45 PM
Post #88 of 228 (3705 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

No my questions as to what i saw have been answered by the only two jumpers who have posted what they saw as well.
And it was the exact same thing i saw. And i never had any questions as to what the outcome was.
But that is not what is relevent. Or what i have been attempting to point out.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 29, 2012, 9:01 PM
Post #89 of 228 (3694 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Please watch the video Divalent has posted a few postings up.
This is what me and two others claim to have seen.
And it about made me puke seeing it again. But it does demonstrate why people with low levels of experience should not simply be ignored.
Just becasue you read something else in the newspaper.
THAT CANOPY WAS NOT LANDABLE as the article claims. No matter how experienced the person it claims to qoute is.
I also stated that i thought she went to low trying to clear it and should have put her reserve out sooner.
Which DOES NOT take away from the awesom job she did do on fighting to clear it.
And getting her reserve out in a nightmare situation. It was just my opinion that she should have pulled silver sooner.
In a perfect world. But she was not in a perfect world! And rather she lost alltitude awarness for a few seconds?
Or knew exactly where she was at and how low she could go?
As some have suggested due to her experience level.
Does not take away that she fought it all the way and never gave up. And got her resereve out in time.


(This post was edited by airborne47 on Sep 29, 2012, 9:18 PM)


AMax

Sep 30, 2012, 12:23 AM
Post #90 of 228 (3609 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Airborne47,

Are you confusing the incidents forum with a personal blog?


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Sep 30, 2012, 12:52 AM
Post #91 of 228 (3602 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess the video was pretty much exactly how I recalled it.
Along with the winded low jump number guy on this thread.
She was coming down even faster than I thought though.


airborne47  (A 43475)

Sep 30, 2012, 8:37 AM
Post #92 of 228 (3428 views)
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Re: [AMax] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope.
Just responding to the bad advice of others. I.E. cutting away a good canopy while your body is wrapped with another is a good idea.
Or not cutting away below 1000 feet is an aff mimamum for ammatuers.
I'm done here and will post a warning about (expert) advice in safey and training.


5.samadhi

Sep 30, 2012, 3:03 PM
Post #93 of 228 (3247 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
^ for those who don't know what this good sir is talking about: http://parachutistonline.com/...ing-canopy-collision

I thought this part of Crouch's article was particularly pertinent to this discussion:

Quote:
The higher the wing loading, the more violent the collision will be, and the less likely it will be that one or both pilots will survive. Avoidance is truly the only solution when it comes to canopy collisions at high wing loadings.
blue skies Unsure

So now we are done with square vs elliptical and on to WL. Ill bite: do you know what were the WL of the canopies involved, and if you don't, why do you think that part of the article is particularly pertinent to this discussion?
somebody mentioned that the crossfire2 was loaded at 1.6-1.7. Is that incorrect?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 30, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #94 of 228 (3105 views)
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Re: [airborne47] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll leave aside the little issue about how someone's opinion isn't given as much weight because he's not experienced as another witness or a reporter.

I'm not involved in all this but just to summarize what we seem to have:

- The newspaper report made it sound like a textbook wrap with the accident jumper having a perfectly good parachute. That may have been based on assumptions and could well be incorrect:

- The video suggests the jumper was later under some sort of high speed streamer to a low altitude before cutting away.

- The reserve canopy did some turning and diving in the few seconds until impact.

It isn't clear how long the jumper might have had her body entangled with the other jumper's main. Knowing that is crucial to understanding her actions.

Confusingly for many, it was a "wrap" if she personally were entangled, but as soon as she were not entangled, she would have an "entanglement", because that refers to the canopies and not the jumpers. But wait, some descriptions of a "wrap" mention the canopy. It isn't clear if they mean the canopy surface itself or the canopy lines, which are part of the canopy but not the actual canopy in another sense. And some descriptions of "wrap" say that the upper canopy is flying fine. But what if it is line twisted and spinning, yet not entangled with the other canopy? That makes it sound like it isn't by definition either a wrap or entanglement, as if it were no emergency at all, even though the jumper is clearly wrapped by canopy. No wonder many jumpers don't follow the definitions of "wrap" and "entanglement" very precisely, and use them nearly interchangeably...

The USPA SIM just mentions "entanglements" as a generic term, never using the word "wrap" in relation to emergencies -- So that's how skydivers are being educated; whether or not CRW guys used different definitions in 1982. The SIM suggestions for standard procedures to just deploy your reserve below 1000' when entangled without a good chance of being able to separate canopies and land OK.

Going back to the accident, it's hard to judge her actions without knowing more about what she was facing. The sorts of issues are pretty obvious: If you have one last line wrapped around your body and you are getting low under an entangled mess -- do you try to clear it and then do a low chop, or do you chop while still entangled with a line or do you dump your reserve into it the mess now? No clear good answer, even if you follow the SIM.

She did manage to get her reserve open with a little altitude, enough to stabilize its flight path. The next unknown is why the reserve seemed to spiral in.

Feel free to attack / correct / expand on any of this.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Sep 30, 2012, 9:28 PM
Post #95 of 228 (3043 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

<snip>

She did manage to get her reserve open with a little altitude, enough to stabilize its flight path. The next unknown is why the reserve seemed to spiral in.

Feel free to attack / correct / expand on any of this.

So... has anyone heard yet whether her arm wings were unzipped or released when they found her?

44
Frown


(This post was edited by robinheid on Sep 30, 2012, 9:30 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 30, 2012, 10:52 PM
Post #96 of 228 (2990 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.. But what if it is line twisted and spinning, yet not entangled with the other canopy? That makes it sound like it isn't by definition either a wrap or entanglement,
Yes indeed it is still a wrap.
IMO, it's simple. It involves the canopies.
If the canopies (including lines) are mixed up together you have an entanglement. If the other jumper's canopy is connected to you and not entangled with your canopy, it is a wrap on you.

EPs apply regardless of what the upper canopy is doing.
In the case of a wrap, the lower jumper will cutaway first.

Take note guys...if you are involved in a collision where both jumpers need to cutaway, be aware that the first one is going to be directly below the second one until one of you actively gets horizontal separation.


In reply to:
No wonder many jumpers don't follow the definitions of "wrap" and "entanglement" very precisely, and use them nearly interchangeably...
I believe that they are defined in the SIM. I'm going to go ahead and post this and go look it up to be sure. I believe the reason that they get mixed up in most cases is because so few people actually read the SIMx

In reply to:
The SIM suggestions for standard procedures to just deploy your reserve below 1000' when entangled without a good chance of being able to separate canopies and land OK.
This is incorrect as far as I can tell. Will you cite the section?

In reply to:
If you have one last line wrapped around your body and you are getting low under an entangled mess -- do you try to clear it and then do a low chop, or do you chop while still entangled with a line or do you dump your reserve into it the mess now? No clear good answer, even if you follow the SIM.
Procedures for a Horseshoe malfunction.



I will note this also:

In Category A...........
9. Cut away above 1,000 feet.

a. If a malfunction procedure has not resolved the problem by then, deploy the reserve (requires a cutaway with an SOS system).

b. In the event of any malfunction and regardless of the planned procedure or equipment, the reserve ripcord must be pulled by no lower than 1,000 feet.

In Category B...............
8. Review minimum cutaway altitude and reserve deployment without cutaway if necessary.

a. Decide to cut away by 2,500 feet and act.

b. If below 1,000 feet without a functioning canopy, deploy the reserve (will result in a cutaway on an SOS system).


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Sep 30, 2012, 11:05 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 1, 2012, 10:39 AM
Post #97 of 228 (2762 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The SIM suggestions for standard procedures to just deploy your reserve below 1000' when entangled without a good chance of being able to separate canopies and land OK.
This is incorrect as far as I can tell. Will you cite the section?

Your quote about just deploying the reserve if under 1,000' is from 4.CatB.C.8.b. (Not sure if I got the nomenclature right!)

I was using the statement right after it, 4.CatB.C.8.c, which is about a canopy entanglement with another jumper only (something I didn't mention in my previous post). It similarly suggests just using the reserve, but in the case where it looks like one isn't likely to successfully separate for landing.

If going outside of the 'student sections', there's also 5-1.H.3.5 which talks about canopy collisions. It talks about cutaways but then mentions "At some point below a safe cutaway altitude (1,000 feet), it may become necessary to deploy one or both reserves"

Who knows, the exact wrap & entanglement definition thing might need its own thread some day.

If you find other stuff I've missed in the SIM, no problem.


textandstage  (A 66497)

Oct 1, 2012, 1:49 PM
Post #98 of 228 (2615 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone have an update on the diver's condition? I did my first AFF at Perris the day after the accident. People were shaken up......

That video is awful, and the situation is incredibly tragic...

I hope (but unfortunately doubt) that she'll make a full recovery.

Blue Skies


mightyduck

Oct 1, 2012, 11:20 PM
Post #99 of 228 (2363 views)
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Re: [textandstage] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Irina's brother, Boris said to media that Irina passed away today.

Hope it is not true, but..


(This post was edited by mightyduck on Oct 1, 2012, 11:22 PM)


BigBUG  (D License)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:06 AM
Post #100 of 228 (2321 views)
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Re: [mightyduck] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is sad true.
Irina passed away in Burdenko neurophysical facility this morning.

Fly free...


Terai

Oct 2, 2012, 4:15 AM
Post #101 of 228 (2810 views)
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Re: [BigBUG] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

If someone still wants to help her family, I repost the bank details:

Details US Dollars Transfer
Bank: SBERBANK
SWIFT-code: SABRRUMM
Bank address: Moscow, Russian Federation,
Krasnopresnenskoye Branch No. 9038 / 1758
Beneficiary name: Artemyev Oleg Vladimirovich
Beneficiary account number 40817 840 9 3817 0001756

USD JPMorgan Chase Bank NA, New York, NY 0011909256 CHASUS33

Details Euro funds transfer
Bank: SBERBANK
SWIFT-code: SABRRUMM
Bank address: Moscow, Russian Federation,
Krasnopresnenskoye Branch No. 9038 / 1758
Beneficiary name: Artemyev Oleg Vladimirovich
Beneficiary account number 40817 978 0 3817 0001078

EUR Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt am Main 10094987261000 DEUTDEFF

Irretrievable loss for us.


(This post was edited by Terai on Oct 2, 2012, 4:18 AM)


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 2, 2012, 7:07 AM
Post #102 of 228 (2642 views)
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Re: [Terai] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is also a paypal account under the email AOV@Vysota.ru.

Fly free.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 8:37 AM
Post #103 of 228 (2516 views)
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Re: [BigBUG] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this incident sounds EXACTLY like the canopy collision that happened at the Tiki boogie.

WTF?

Are we seeing a lack of needed experience for the jumps?
Hot dogging and racing at breakoff?
Pocket rocket canopy, poor packing, off heading openings?
Is this the same jumper with the collision at Tiki?


Kynan1  (A 50652)

Oct 2, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #104 of 228 (2484 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

A few thousand jumps sounds like enough experience for
Big ways. Another Russian died there during a big way event
About 2 years ago roughly, when crossing the runway low and had
a canopy collision.
Should we ban bigways? I say why not. Much like the current filling
of ponds in SoCal when swoopers get injured or die.
The reality is, bigways are not necessary and far more dangerous
of a skydive. This of course would never happen though because
bigways are huge money makers for dropzones, where as swooping
is a very small amount of revenue.
I think skydiving/swooping/big turns should not be regulated.
A bit off topic here.
It's a shame she died, as I remember her walking around the dz
that weekend looking great.
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.
Jumping out of a plane with 100 people is putting yourself at much higher risk...that's all there is to this mishap.


(This post was edited by Kynan1 on Oct 2, 2012, 8:58 AM)


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:14 AM
Post #105 of 228 (2422 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.

Not linked to this accident, but do have to say you're not entirely correct there.
On any given wingsuit jump, smal canopies will lead to offheading openings a lot quicker. And in case of 50 to a 100 people in the sky with their hands 'tied' the first few seconds after opening, a safe canopy selection for sure makes a big difference.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:22 AM
Post #106 of 228 (2395 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

While the deceased had 1000's of jumps, it is my understanding that was not the case for the majority of the jumpers on this big way.

Two wingie canopy collisions within a very short time frame SHOULD make us look at similarities.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 2, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #107 of 228 (2363 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Much like the current filling of ponds in SoCal when swoopers get injured or
>die. The reality is, bigways are not necessary and far more dangerous
>of a skydive.

That's not supported by fatality stats. Far more people are killed swooping than on bigways.

>Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.

There are many ways to avoid collisions on bigways. One of those ways is good canopy choice. Larger canopies that open on heading are, in general, better than smaller canopies that tend to open on random headings.


Rick  (D 28557)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #108 of 228 (2335 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Much like the current filling of ponds in SoCal when swoopers get injured or
>die. The reality is, bigways are not necessary and far more dangerous
>of a skydive.

That's not supported by fatality stats. Far more people are killed swooping than on bigways.

>Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.

There are many ways to avoid collisions on bigways. One of those ways is good canopy choice. Larger canopies that open on heading are, in general, better than smaller canopies that tend to open on random headings.

I have to agree with Bill on this. I don't jump a small canopy but I know people that will up size for bigway jumps. Having more consistent openings and more time to get into the pattern is not a bad idea.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Oct 2, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #109 of 228 (2279 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.

Not linked to this accident, but do have to say you're not entirely correct there.
On any given wingsuit jump, smal canopies will lead to offheading openings a lot quicker. And in case of 50 to a 100 people in the sky with their hands 'tied' the first few seconds after opening, a safe canopy selection for sure makes a big difference.

The way I read Kynan's post is that the additional risk you create by putting yourself in the air with 100+ other people far outweighs any risk mitigation achieved by jumping a slower canopy, especially when, as you point out, those 100+ people all have their hands tied during and immediately after opening. To put it another way, Kynan is saying that debating canopy size for wingsuit big-ways is like arguing about what kind of bandaid you're going to put on a severed artery.

Moreover, "on any given wingsuit jump, (wingsuits) lead to offheading openings" regardless of canopy type and wing loading because even the tiniest asymmetry in body position is magnified and those asymmetries are more likely on big-ways because peeps are looking around for other traffic even as they deploy (just like in other disciplines).

Ergo, the risk curve bends upward way -- way -- steeper on wingsuit big-ways than on other kinds of big-ways because of these factors.

Add to that the following facts:

* Wingsuit big-ways are made up of people with far fewer wingsuit jumps and years of experience in wingsuiting compared to the the people on big-ways of other disciplines

* Wingsuit big-way personnel are drawn from a way -- way -- smaller talent pool compared to the big-ways of other disciplines

* Wingsuit big-way organizers are way -- way -- less experienced than their counterparts in other disciplines.

Think about it. The 400-way RW jumps have people on them that have been doing big-way RW not for 5 or 6 years but for 30 or 40 years (ditto for the organizers). And how big was the biggest RW big-way when RW was 10-12 years old? That would have been about 1975 when, IIRC, the world record was... 26.

Ditto for freeflying. How big was the FF big-way record in 2005 (or whenever FF hit the 10-12-year mark?)

Ditto for CRW? How big was the CRW big-way record in 1988?

Look it up and you'll find all of those numbers are just a fraction of the 100+ tried at Perris and the 68/71 done wherever that was done.

And guess what? None of those peeps had their hands tied on opening.

Given this history and the highly experienced wingsuiters involved in the two recent collisions, it may be time for the pushers of big-way wingsuit jumps to rethink what they're doing because what's happening now is not laughable.

44
Frown


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #110 of 228 (2242 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.
And in case of 50 to a 100 people in the sky with their hands 'tied' the first few seconds after opening, a safe canopy selection for sure makes a big difference.

I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct. It depends on a few variables including equipment.

On this big way I landed with arms fully zipped up on one occasion due to the priority of flying the canopy. I am also able to reach and spread my risers on every opening.

I do agree that more docile and predictable canopies are always better choices for wingsuiting. Getting on your toggles isn't going to help if you are in line twists.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #111 of 228 (2169 views)
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In reply to:
I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct.

Roughly 60% of the jumpers where not flying gear/brand you mention. And even on said gear, results in reaching risers greatly vary.
This thread is not a sales pitch. Its a discussion on dangers in bigway flying and wingsuits related to this accident.
Judging photos, the deceased also flew a wingsuit that doesnt have said feature, and if you ever face another person up close after deployment its also not a 100% certainty he or she is able to instantly acces risers/toggles, so for sure a big added risk.

Most of what Robin sums up is perhaps painfull to some, but true and way to important to ignore.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:02 AM
Post #112 of 228 (2139 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct.

Roughly 60% of the jumpers where not flying gear/brand you mention. And even on said gear, results in reaching risers greatly vary.
This thread is not a sales pitch. Its a discussion on dangers in bigway flying and wingsuits related to this accident.
Judging photos, the deceased also flew a wingsuit that doesnt have said feature, and if you ever face another person up close after deployment its also not a 100% certainty he or she is able to instantly acces risers/toggles, so for sure a big added risk.

Most of what Robin sums up is perhaps painfull to some, but true and way to important to ignore.

Did I mention a brand? Did I even say it just depended on the wingsuit?

I figured you would pitch in on the defensive side. I am not talking about a specific brand. I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem. I have also seen people in what I guess were "big fitting" suits be able to worm their way up to the toggles.

It is incorrect to say ALL wingsuiters cannot control their canopy upon opening. That is what I was correcting...the myth.

If you are going to talk openly about the dangers of big ways and canopy choices then include ALL equipment choices in the discussion.


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:11 AM
Post #113 of 228 (2119 views)
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In reply to:
I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem.

Can you elaborate on this? I've never heard of it.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:15 AM
Post #114 of 228 (2109 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am not talking about a specific brand.

Neither was I. I dont mention one specific brand. Im just saying most are not jumping that kind of equipment. Simply do a count on the participants. And regardless if its a Venom, Xbird o Sbird, more than half dont have that option/ability. And though you may have, there is no way of telling if a person coming at you at high speed after opening (regardles if its offheading or dealing with a twist) is able to instantly acces their risers. So its a valid point worth concidering on seperation, in reply to why wingsuit bigways are quite a bit more dangerous than 'normal' ones.

But instead of wasting time on marketing driven, defensive talk, hit reply on Robins post as that has a lot more worthy points of discussion.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:18 AM
Post #115 of 228 (2099 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem.

Can you elaborate on this? I've never heard of it.

He is talking about Snekor basegear, though no idea why or how this even relate. So far not a single piece of TSOed skydiving equipment has that feature, nor can you trust on the fact that all participants have said gear (same goes for 'reaching risers' related to suit features)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:21 AM
Post #116 of 228 (2094 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I am not talking about a specific brand.

But instead of wasting time on marketing driven, defensive talk, hit reply on Robins post as that has a lot more worthy points of discussion.

If you really think this is about marketing you are missing the point.

What I can tell you from MY experience is if I have someone flying towards me and they have no ability to control their canopy you better believe I will be glad I can control mine.

If you really think that is irrelevant then I suggest you question your motives.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:27 AM
Post #117 of 228 (2081 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem.

Can you elaborate on this? I've never heard of it.

Attached is what I am referring to. I saw this example at the expo last year and this is a BASE model for sure. However it is a wingsuit that allows you to grab your toggles and I think that is one of the topics in question.

For skydiving I have no idea if relocating the toggles of a main has an impact on the TSO. I didn't think the main was covered under a TSO.

My point is there are solutions out there to allow toggle inputs during and upon opening.

Simon


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #118 of 228 (2054 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

So you are saying, because YOU can control your canopy quicker, wingsuit bigways are not dangerous?

It has nothing to do with motives. But more-so with not sticking your head in the sand, and constantly sweet-talking about how awesome and safe the discipline is.

Regardless of your own gear, its only 50% of the equation. And to me, thats a risk/knowledge worth talking about.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #119 of 228 (2051 views)
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By "attached" do you mean your website url?


grimmie  (D 18890)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:48 AM
Post #120 of 228 (2037 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

This needs to be examined as a skydiving incident first, and then a wingsuit incident second.

Why was there a collision? Were break off procedures correct? Were there close calls earlier in the event? Was this just an isolated incident of two jumpers not seeing each other or inadvertantly tracking towards each other?

What exactly happened on the collision? Was she incapacitated by the canopy striking her body?

Did the gear work properly? Was her reserve wing loaded too high? Was there a reserve pilot chute hesitation? Was the reserve damaged? Was her helmet worn properly and did it get dislodged on the collision? Was there an attempt at a PLF?

Was her wingsuit still zipped up at the arms upon landing? Did the collision dislodge her handles? Did the collision damage her arms and or legs in some manner? Did the trailing canopy interfere with her emergency procedures?

Did she have cutaway experience? Did she ever cutaway while wingsuiting?

Instead of debating gear with toggles on the shoulders, we should be examining the facts when they are presented. IMHO.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:54 AM
Post #121 of 228 (2040 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oooops!
Attachments: Core_invincibility-toggles.jpg (43.7 KB)


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:55 AM
Post #122 of 228 (2038 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

If some wingsuits allow reaching toggles/risers during/after deployment shouldn't we talk about making this a feature on all suits one way or another?


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:59 AM
Post #123 of 228 (2016 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe this is somewhat off topic - or this actual, specific individual incident - but I think still germane. People are now here with this, starting to point out what seems to be also, a recent spike, in specifically these types of incidents. Canopy collisions upon opening on wingsuit flocking (record / bigway or not) dives. Wasn't there also fairly recently - some recounting of as well, a story of a wingsuit jumper who actually cut-away right in the face of what she said was otherwise - an absolute imminent collision -as her "avoidance maneuver" of such? Had that not actually worked out (debatable whether that should be considered the correct response / right action to take faced with this, notwithstanding) - Would we perhaps have yet even ANOTHER of these, in just such recent / current memory here too?

Maybe there is some legitimacy in calling for an unbiased evaluation, and direct comparison (but done / provided by who?) to take place - looking into each of these (seemingly SO SIMILAR) recent events? Maybe 3 or 4 of these hppening in such quick/recent succession in so many weeks/months is not an "epidemic", but by some's reasoning's - it could certainly at least appear so.

So saddened now, to hear this has turned into a fatality. Frown Frown


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Oct 2, 2012, 12:01 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:03 PM
Post #124 of 228 (2005 views)
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I am in full agreement here - way too many similarities.

What are the common factors of the two incidents?



Beuller?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:17 PM
Post #125 of 228 (1967 views)
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Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.
And in case of 50 to a 100 people in the sky with their hands 'tied' the first few seconds after opening, a safe canopy selection for sure makes a big difference.

I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct. It depends on a few variables including equipment.

On this big way I landed with arms fully zipped up on one occasion due to the priority of flying the canopy. I am also able to reach and spread my risers on every opening.

I do agree that more docile and predictable canopies are always better choices for wingsuiting. Getting on your toggles isn't going to help if you are in line twists.

Robin may not be "100% correct;" he is however, 99.9% correct.
One cannot logically argue that zipped-in arms (whether you can reach risers or toggles or slider isn't germane) doesn't have an affect on controllability and in some cases zipped arms have caused linetwists *after* deployment. I understand advocatint the "safety sleeve" concept that doesn't work 99.999% of the time anyway. Even on the suits that have an actual safety cuff and arm cutaways, problems still occur.

Irina's arms were apparently unzipped, and I'm told the body zips were down too so this isn't likely a relevant aspect.

Experience, currency, canopy type are all links in a chain. We've had two fatalities at the wingsuit bigways. We've had two canopy collisions in a month, related to bigways. Both collisions have indications of one jumper cutting away without communication with the other jumper.

As Robin indicates, median experience averages likely play a role.


omnia

Oct 2, 2012, 12:33 PM
Post #126 of 228 (2781 views)
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In reply to:
We've had two fatalities at the wingsuit bigways.

Is the first fatality you are referring to the one at Elsinore in 2009? If so, wasn't that NOT on a bigway jump?

In reply to:
We've had two canopy collisions in a month, related to bigways.

I thought the first collision was on a 6-way, not a big way?


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:36 PM
Post #127 of 228 (2775 views)
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Re: [omnia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Depending on where you jump, a 6 way can easily be a multi-plane organized formation jump.
a.k.a. - bigway.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:37 PM
Post #128 of 228 (2771 views)
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In reply to:
Depending on where you jump, a 6 way can easily be a multi-plane organized formation jump.
a.k.a. - bigway.

I would call that a formation load not a big way.

By that logic a 100 way out of a C130 would not be a big way?


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 2, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #129 of 228 (2763 views)
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In reply to:
I understand advocatint the "safety sleeve" concept that doesn't work 99.999% of the time anyway. Even on the suits that have an actual safety cuff and arm cutaways, problems still occur.

What material are you basing that conclusion on? I believe that is an incorrect statement but I will start a thread elsewhere on it as I think it is dragging this topic down.


michalm21  (Student)

Oct 2, 2012, 1:10 PM
Post #130 of 228 (2724 views)
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This fatality is just sad for both involved.
This is not to judge anyone's skill set or experience level, but possibility of such canopy collision was of a few reasons I opted not to participate in this event.
The 68 way in 2009 scared me, plus unlike the freefly or big RW ways, wingsuiters' experience is significantly lower because well, there aren't that many of us.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 2, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #131 of 228 (2622 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I have to correct you on this because I have heard this a few times and it isn't 100% correct.

Roughly 60% of the jumpers where not flying gear/brand you mention. And even on said gear, results in reaching risers greatly vary.
This thread is not a sales pitch. Its a discussion on dangers in bigway flying and wingsuits related to this accident.
Judging photos, the deceased also flew a wingsuit that doesnt have said feature, and if you ever face another person up close after deployment its also not a 100% certainty he or she is able to instantly acces risers/toggles, so for sure a big added risk.

Most of what Robin sums up is perhaps painfull to some, but true and way to important to ignore.

Did I mention a brand? Did I even say it just depended on the wingsuit?

I figured you would pitch in on the defensive side. I am not talking about a specific brand. I have seen toggles mounted on the shoulders to solve the same problem. I have also seen people in what I guess were "big fitting" suits be able to worm their way up to the toggles.

It is incorrect to say ALL wingsuiters cannot control their canopy upon opening. That is what I was correcting...the myth.

If you are going to talk openly about the dangers of big ways and canopy choices then include ALL equipment choices in the discussion.

That may be true enough, but it only takes one.....

Its sad that she didn't make it....


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Oct 2, 2012, 2:10 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 2, 2012, 2:48 PM
Post #132 of 228 (2564 views)
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Re: [Kynan1] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A few thousand jumps sounds like enough experience for
Big ways. Another Russian died there during a big way event
About 2 years ago roughly, when crossing the runway low and had
a canopy collision.
Should we ban bigways? I say why not. Much like the current filling
of ponds in SoCal when swoopers get injured or die.
The reality is, bigways are not necessary and far more dangerous
of a skydive. This of course would never happen though because
bigways are huge money makers for dropzones, where as swooping
is a very small amount of revenue.
I think skydiving/swooping/big turns should not be regulated.
A bit off topic here.
It's a shame she died, as I remember her walking around the dz
that weekend looking great.
Speculating on smaller canopies used, etc on here is just laughable.
Jumping out of a plane with 100 people is putting yourself at much higher risk...that's all there is to this mishap.

Your argument is silly and I think you know it. Swoop ponds are going away because of the death toll in swooping. More jumpers died under open canopies just last year then the total killed on all bigways.
And yes it is about money, do you think DZO’s run a drop zone for a hobby? If you can’t be part of the solution don’t be part of the problem.

Sparky












normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 3, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #138 of 228 (1832 views)
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect some folks with "world record skillz" do not, in fact, posses said skillz.

They are failing on simple AND difficult breakoffs, packing, line stowing, canopy choice, exits, landings, navigation, and overall gear choice.

Doing nothing to correct these issues is not the proper response.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 3, 2012, 10:18 AM)


michalm21  (Student)

Oct 3, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #139 of 228 (1765 views)
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In reply to:
No, actually I suspect some folks with "world record skillz" do not, in fact, posses said skillz.
agreed, very much so actually
In reply to:
They are failing on simple AND difficult breakoffs, packing, line stowing, canopy choice, exits, landings, navigation, and overall gear choice.
this is full of shit, how could you possibly know that?
do you know most jumpers or are you just assuming to make a point?
In reply to:
Doing nothing to correct these issues is not the proper response.
agreed, but how do you know it's not the case?


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 3, 2012, 10:18 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 3, 2012, 9:07 AM
Post #140 of 228 (1750 views)
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Re: [michalm21] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Many of those 'line items' can, do, will, and have, been active members of the chain of events.
Having your d-bag float and spin in your burble is not a good thing. Any number of those factors can cause the spin.
We should all know what that causes and why.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 3, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #141 of 228 (1726 views)
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just happened to hit reply to kallend because it was convenient but I am asking this of anyone who is familiar with wingsuiting (which I am not).

What do wingsuiters do to help mitigate the big burble that can be created above and behind the wingsuiter? And to help mitigate line twist and off heading openings?

Longer bridles? Bigger pilot chutes? Semi stowless or stowless bags? Canopy choice?

Educate me please.

.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Oct 3, 2012, 9:57 AM
Post #142 of 228 (1693 views)
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In reply to:
I just happened to hit reply to kallend because it was convenient but I am asking this of anyone who is familiar with wingsuiting (which I am not).

What do wingsuiters do to help mitigate the big burble that can be created above and behind the wingsuiter? And to help mitigate line twist and off heading openings?

Longer bridles? Bigger pilot chutes? Semi stowless or stowless bags? Canopy choice?

Educate me please.

.

I don't think the burble is the cause of most line twists, and I've had plenty. In my case I'd blame body position and deployment issues over packing or gear near 100%. I do think a long bridle is needed with a big wingsuit, but not so much to prevent line twists as to avoid a PCIT.
Once you get line twists then canopy choice is important as to what happens next.
Some are big on stowless bags, packing tweaks, and container mods but I don't think it matters much. I don't use them and hardly ever have problems any more. So to answer your question, I think learning to deploy good and fly out the opening good are really the best bet for avoiding the problem.
I will add that I still know I could have a problem on any jump and try really hard to be well clear of anybody else when deploying.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 3, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #143 of 228 (1651 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Semantics arguments deleted. Let's not try to redefine terms in these threads.


Whamie  (No License)

Oct 3, 2012, 10:43 AM
Post #144 of 228 (1621 views)
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Re: [Terai] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's really hard not to cry since Perris is my home DZ. It hits home really hard.
Though I was not there for the incident I was there the weekend before going through my AFF course. I recall seeing a huge group of wingsuit flyers practicing the formation on the grass area.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and community.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 3, 2012, 11:47 AM
Post #145 of 228 (1524 views)
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In reply to:
I just happened to hit reply to kallend because it was convenient but I am asking this of anyone who is familiar with wingsuiting (which I am not).

What do wingsuiters do to help mitigate the big burble that can be created above and behind the wingsuiter? And to help mitigate line twist and off heading openings?

Longer bridles? Bigger pilot chutes? Semi stowless or stowless bags? Canopy choice?

Educate me please.

.

As Ed mentioned, there are a variety of ways to mitigate this problem. With bigger suits, the longer bridle is definitely recommended...although I know of some who don't use one. Most people I know no longer rely on the other mods (like cut corners, etc).

Personally, I fly a much smaller suit (a Shadow), and for my first 50 wingsuit jumps, I jumped with standard gear (Vector Micron, no cut corners, standard bridle, standard d-bag). Never had a problem. Since then, I've upgraded to a semi-stowless bag and an extended bridle on both my rigs, only when the occasion arose to replace them (i.e., I didn't go specifically seeking the mod - I was simply ordering a new rig, and replacing my old PC, and it seemed like those options could more likely help than hurt me. And my semi-stowless d-bag isn't for wingsuiting per se - I simply find it easier to pack).

Were I to move to a bigger suit, I'd think my setup would be sufficient.

Also as Ed suggested, canopy choice plays a role. I fly a Pilot-104 and a Crossfire2-105, both loaded at about 1.4 to 1. While I know a number of wingsuiters who fly Crossfires, Nitrons, and other elliptical canopies, I specifically got the Pilot for wingsuiting - better safe than sorry.


tl;dr: The burble is much more significant with bigger suits, and generally people mitigate it with a longer bridle (& possibly a bigger PC). Other mods are kinda like packing voodoo - some will swear by that one thing they have, and others will swear it's not necessary.

The most important thing is learning to pitch your PC into the cleanest air possible (whether that means full flight, collapsing your wings, or other)...and learning to fly your openings. Most experienced wingsuiters I know (myself included) are tucking and unzipping our armwings as the bag comes off our backs. Particularly in events where there may be other canopies nearby.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:12 PM
Post #146 of 228 (1489 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This needs to be examined as a skydiving incident first, and then a wingsuit incident second.

Why was there a collision? Were break off procedures correct? Were there close calls earlier in the event? Was this just an isolated incident of two jumpers not seeing each other or inadvertantly tracking towards each other?

What exactly happened on the collision? Was she incapacitated by the canopy striking her body?

Did the gear work properly? Was her reserve wing loaded too high? Was there a reserve pilot chute hesitation? Was the reserve damaged? Was her helmet worn properly and did it get dislodged on the collision? Was there an attempt at a PLF?

Was her wingsuit still zipped up at the arms upon landing? Did the collision dislodge her handles? Did the collision damage her arms and or legs in some manner? Did the trailing canopy interfere with her emergency procedures?

Did she have cutaway experience? Did she ever cutaway while wingsuiting?

Instead of debating gear with toggles on the shoulders, we should be examining the facts when they are presented. IMHO.

All good questions, Rich - many I asked myself.

I can't speak to all your Q's, but I can answer some of them:


1) I watched the overhead cameraflyer's video of the jump to see how the breakoff looked. Breakoff procedures were correct and well-executed. Both wingsuiters were flying on opposite sides of the formation, and broke off in opposite directions. Both appeared to have more than adequate separation from each other and the rest of their surrounding wingsuiters prior to the cameraflyer's deployment. (After he deployed, the video shows nothing else of the incident).

Watching the video of breakoff, I would not have recommended doing anything differently if I were organizing the jump.

2) I am not aware of any other 'close calls' during the event...save, perhaps, the types of 'close calls' one sees on any big way (i.e., the occasional person with line twists that another canopy has to steer clear to avoid, and the stress of opening closer to other canopies than one is normally accustomed - neither of which are close calls, but just seem a little closer than normal). Overall, in my experience, the breakoffs during the entire event were remarkably clean and well-organized.


I was not a responder to the incident, and so I don't know the answers to a lot of the other questions (and some I suspect we may never know).

For me, as unfortunate as it is, I think my takeway was simple: the stakes are higher when you're in the air with 100+ other people. Even by following proper breakoff procedures, even with seemingly-adequate separation, something unexpected can still come out of nowhere and kill you. This isn't an everyday fun jump. It's serious business.*


Canopy choice may or may not have played a role. I still don't know who was flying what canopy during the collision. We don't know if Irina had full control of her canopy (it's conceivable that both jumpers were dealing with line twists at the time, and both were unfortunate enough to draw the unlucky card that sent them flying towards each other). But regardless, one of the things we accept when flying on big ways is an increased risk. We do everything we can to mitigate it, but can't eliminate it all.

Knowing Irina's experience (and the many big way world records she holds), while I can't say for sure her experience helped her know how to handle this situation, my gut tells me she did everything she could. But unfortunately, she may be the only person who knew the answer to a lot of these questions. Frown

Regardless, although I hate just writing it off to this, I think it deserves to be said - as someone much wiser than me once put it: "No matter how good you are, you're never too good to get killed by this sport." Frown


*This is in staunch contrast to the other recent wingsuit collision, where a case of 'get-back-itis' led to inadequate separation between 2 wingsuit pilots on a 6-way jump.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #147 of 228 (1482 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
. Most experienced wingsuiters I know (myself included) are tucking and unzipping our armwings as the bag comes off our backs. Particularly in events where there may be other canopies nearby.
You make that sound like it's a good thing.

Does all that moving around during the opening not promote off heading openings?

It sure would with my canopy but then it's a Velocity at about 2:1.

.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Oct 3, 2012, 12:15 PM)


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:22 PM
Post #148 of 228 (1467 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.
Most experienced wingsuiters I know (myself included) are tucking and unzipping our armwings as the bag comes off our backs. Particularly in events where there may be other canopies nearby.
You make that sound like it's a good thing.

Does all that moving around during the opening not promote off heading openings?

It sure would with my canopy but then it's a Velocity at about 2:1.

.
In a traditional (non-full-flight) wingsuit deployment, one's arms are tucked close to one's chest (in order to collapse the burble for a cleaner deployment). This puts the fingers of one hand right at the place needed to grab a zipper and start unzipping as soon as you're pulled upright in the saddle. (So perhaps I shouldn't have used the words "as the bag comes off our backs".)

When done properly, it's not a lot of moving around. I've never had a problem with it causing me to turn off-heading.

Were I flying a Velo loaded at 2:1, I don't think I'd attempt it, though. (Then again, that's why I fly a Pilot when wingsuiting).


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:28 PM
Post #149 of 228 (1461 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Does anyone know how much communication there was between the two jumpers prior to the actual cutaway?

Any of us who have done CReW know how important it is to make certain both jumpers are ready for the cutaway unless everything is just happening too fast.

In other words was she ready for this cutaway?

.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #150 of 228 (1442 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Does anyone know how much communication there was between the two jumpers prior to the actual cutaway?

Any of us who have done CReW know how important it is to make certain both jumpers are ready for the cutaway unless everything is just happening too fast.

In other words was she ready for this cutaway?

.

All that I saw was the breakoff, so I really can't answer any of those Q's.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 3, 2012, 1:38 PM
Post #151 of 228 (3347 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I suspect some folks with "world record skillz" do not, in fact, posses said skillz.

They are failing on simple AND difficult breakoffs, packing, line stowing, canopy choice, exits, landings, navigation, and overall gear choice.

Doing nothing to correct these issues is not the proper response.

The videos do not support the claim that breakoffs were poorly executed. This incident does not appear to have anything whatsoever to do with the breakoff, exits, landings or navigation. Where are you getting your information? Whatever the source, it is incorrect.




lonedfx

Oct 4, 2012, 1:48 PM
Post #153 of 228 (2687 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In a traditional (non-full-flight) wingsuit deployment, one's arms are tucked close to one's chest (in order to collapse the burble for a cleaner deployment). This puts the fingers of one hand right at the place needed to grab a zipper and start unzipping as soon as you're pulled upright in the saddle.

And then if you happen to need to cutaway, you now have a (potentially massive) leg wing, and no arm wing, a very good recipe for flatspins. Given the propensity people have to try and get stable before opening their reserve (sometimes for an ungodly amount of time), I do not think this is always such a good thing. I have a few interesting videos on this very subject.

Not to mention that even though you feel really symmetrical when you do it, depending on the wingsuit and the canopy, it could still be a source of off-heading opening, if not outright instability if you don't have the experience to do that safely. Certainly I wouldn't recommend a student to do this.


lonedfx

Oct 4, 2012, 1:52 PM
Post #154 of 228 (2675 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.


(This post was edited by lonedfx on Oct 4, 2012, 1:53 PM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 4, 2012, 2:01 PM
Post #155 of 228 (2662 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

"Front zippers down" is quite an interesting report. I don't know many folks that undo the zippers on the front of their suits and certainly not with 100 other canopies in the sky. That would seem to be a non-essential habit.

Maybe it could pulled down in the wrap?

Was that from a first hand report?


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Oct 4, 2012, 2:11 PM
Post #156 of 228 (2641 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In a traditional (non-full-flight) wingsuit deployment, one's arms are tucked close to one's chest (in order to collapse the burble for a cleaner deployment). This puts the fingers of one hand right at the place needed to grab a zipper and start unzipping as soon as you're pulled upright in the saddle.

And then if you happen to need to cutaway, you now have a (potentially massive) leg wing, and no arm wing, a very good recipe for flatspins. Given the propensity people have to try and get stable before opening their reserve (sometimes for an ungodly amount of time), I do not think this is always such a good thing. I have a few interesting videos on this very subject.

Not to mention that even though you feel really symmetrical when you do it, depending on the wingsuit and the canopy, it could still be a source of off-heading opening, if not outright instability if you don't have the experience to do that safely. Certainly I wouldn't recommend a student to do this.

1) I wouldn't recommend a wingsuit student do it either. But I also wouldn't recommend a student be present on a 100-way (which is what this thread is about).

2) I've had one of those cutaways, from a spinning malfunction on my back. Worked fine for me. Another reason to punch & pull quickly, as we teach in the AFF FJC...or to have an RSL. Best to not spend the rest of your life trying to get stable.

Regardless, none of this seems relevant to the incident at-hand, so if you'd like to continue the discussion, mind if we move it to the Wingsuit forum?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 4, 2012, 2:47 PM
Post #157 of 228 (2609 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

________________________________
I'm not sure what you are getting at. This is my post:
___________________________________

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Does anyone know how much communication there was between the two jumpers prior to the actual cutaway?

Any of us who have done CReW know how important it is to make certain both jumpers are ready for the cutaway unless everything is just happening too fast.

In other words was she ready for this cutaway?
_______________________________________________

So my question remains.

Does anyone know how much communication there was between the two jumpers prior to the actual cutaway?

In other words was she ready for this cutaway?

.


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 4, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #158 of 228 (2582 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And then if you happen to need to cutaway, you now have a (potentially massive) leg wing, and no arm wing, a very good recipe for flatspins.

The majority of cutaways on wingsuit jumps happen with unzipped arms, the rare exception may be a total mal. Think about it, the most common cutaway is line twists. If you have linetwists, you are most likely going to unzip and try to fix them. When you can't, you'll chop, and you will have unzipped arms at the time.

No big deal. Unzipping your arms early may contribute to stability as was earlier pointed out, but having your arms unzipped while cutting away is not a concern at all, or out of the ordinary.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 4, 2012, 4:52 PM
Post #159 of 228 (2517 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

What reports are you referring to? Do you have access to information that everyone else doesn’t?

Sparky


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 4, 2012, 9:51 PM
Post #160 of 228 (2354 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

Question on "what's a wingsuit instructor?" moved to the wingsuiting forum.


Darsia  (D License)

Oct 5, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #161 of 228 (2135 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Finally someone is mentioning the CReW-rules!

I agree that smaller canopies (they are faster, but also faster in any kind of movements) and bigways, especially the two in combination with eachother, are taking more risk. Put some wings between your arms and legs and you really have to know what you are doing! Besides of trusting yourself, you have to trust and rely on other skydivers, also underneath your canopy! It's important to know how to fly and behave underneath your canopy, when it's crowded (that can be hard after a succesful bigway, while the adrenaline is rushing through your body). Have a suitable canopy for your experience but also for the event and discipline! And it's important that you know how to handle when you have shit above your head (some beginners do have more experience in that, comparing to 3000+ jumpers with no reserve procedure at all) or when you are in shit, like with a canopy collission. And the chance of a collision is much higher when you are with more in the sky, so it's important to know how to handle and know the CReW-rules (wraps/entaglements/altitudes) in emergency!!!

What I have been reading, was her death the result of/after a collision, so in my opinion there should be more discusion how to handle in or after a collision (avoiding them is the best!!!) It also looked like she cutaway too low. In that case of the basics: if you think your canopy, at a low altitude, is no longer landable, just deploy your reserve without cutting away. Not ideal, but will give you a better chance of survival than trying to land an unlandable main or to cut-away at an altitude that your reserve can barely open or fly....!!! Unsure


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 5, 2012, 9:05 AM
Post #162 of 228 (2119 views)
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Re: [Darsia] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the person you collided your canopy with was kind enough to cut away without communication and gives you a pretty little gift wrap situation, you just might not have to option to cutaway with sufficient altitude.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #163 of 228 (2062 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

What reports are you referring to? Do you have access to information that everyone else doesn’t?

Sparky

See post #125, this thread:
Quote:
Irina's arms were apparently unzipped, and I'm told the body zips were down too so this isn't likely a relevant aspect.


Darsia  (D License)

Oct 5, 2012, 1:16 PM
Post #164 of 228 (1962 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I only got the Dutch version on paper here, but found some good advice about Canopy collisions in English:

http://parachutistonline.com/safety_training/safety_check/reacting-canopy-collision

http://www.apf.asn.au/Members/Information/Canopy-Collisions/default.aspx

http://www.skydive-center.net/safety.htm

According to me a good advise of the writer of the last link especially for formations (FS, FF, Wingsuit or whatever):

To summarise on the points for survival:

1)Everyone does CRW when your in the air with others - be aware of all those around you in the sky and don’t assume because you see them that they have seen you.
2)Collisions are a reality and you should be prepared for one to happen to you. Have a plan.
When it happens , don’t panic.
3)Be aware of you altitude and give yourself plenty of altitude to cutaway and deploy your reserve.
4)Experiment with your rear risers for quick avoidance manoeuvring

Hope everyone is taking lessons out of the recent canopy collisions wich have been leading to terrible injuries and deaths. It is my worst nightmare: flying happily underneath my canopy and being flown out of the air to an other world by an other canopy...

BSBD...Unsure


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 3:03 PM
Post #165 of 228 (1891 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

"Front zippers down" is quite an interesting report. I don't know many folks that undo the zippers on the front of their suits and certainly not with 100 other canopies in the sky. That would seem to be a non-essential habit.

Maybe it could pulled down in the wrap?

Was that from a first hand report?

Came from DSE's post #125, this thread.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 5, 2012, 3:10 PM
Post #166 of 228 (1886 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumping out of a plane with 100 people is putting yourself at much higher risk...that's all there is to this mishap.

Your argument is silly and I think you know it. Swoop ponds are going away because of the death toll in swooping. More jumpers died under open canopies just last year then the total killed on all bigways.

Sparky
Mike, more people FLEW open canopies last year than participated in bigways. A bigway DOES have added risk, there's no denying it. Only about 10% of my RW jumps have been 100ways or bigger, yet fully half of the fatalities on jumps I've been on have been on 100+ way RW jumps. My canopy collision was on a RW bigway in 2007 (fortunately we didn't entangle or wrap).

No crossposting please.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 5, 2012, 10:01 PM)




lonedfx

Oct 6, 2012, 2:07 AM
Post #168 of 228 (1697 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Reports mention that she not only had her arms free, her front zipper was also down. It seems unlikely that should could have done all this during deployment, or after the collision.

What reports are you referring to? Do you have access to information that everyone else doesn’t?

I remember reading that but can't figure out where now so I'll just go ahead and retract it. I can't even remember if that was from the a mail or from the media so never mind. I'll just apologize and shut up now.


lonedfx

Oct 6, 2012, 2:32 AM
Post #169 of 228 (1689 views)
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Re: [The111] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The majority of cutaways on wingsuit jumps happen with unzipped arms, the rare exception may be a total mal. Think about it, the most common cutaway is line twists. If you have linetwists, you are most likely going to unzip and try to fix them. When you can't, you'll chop, and you will have unzipped arms at the time.

Hm, okay, I never had to unzip for line twists once in a few hundred go but my experience is probably not representative (very tame canopy under very light load).

In reply to:
No big deal.

It's not, as long as you punch & pull quickly, as LloydDobbler says. As he said also, we're getting off topic, it has nothing to do with the incident. My bad.


(This post was edited by lonedfx on Oct 6, 2012, 2:52 AM)


lonedfx

Oct 6, 2012, 2:39 AM
Post #170 of 228 (1687 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not sure what you are getting at. This is my post:
___________________________________

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

I simply misunderstood your sentence, I read "opening" instead of "collision" (i know...). It should make more sense now what I meant, and yes now I see it's irrelevant.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 6, 2012, 5:05 AM
Post #171 of 228 (1655 views)
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Re: [lonedfx] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm not sure what you are getting at. This is my post:
___________________________________

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the cutaway happened fairly quickly after the collision.

I simply misunderstood your sentence, I read "opening" instead of "collision" (i know...). It should make more sense now what I meant, and yes now I see it's irrelevant.

It happens. No worries.

.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 6, 2012, 6:57 PM
Post #172 of 228 (1484 views)
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Re: [kallend] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Jumping out of a plane with 100 people is putting yourself at much higher risk...that's all there is to this mishap.

Your argument is silly and I think you know it. Swoop ponds are going away because of the death toll in swooping. More jumpers died under open canopies just last year then the total killed on all bigways.

Sparky

Mike, more people FLEW open canopies last year than participated in bigways. A bigway DOES have added risk, there's no denying it. Only about 10% of my RW jumps have been 100ways or bigger, yet fully half of the fatalities on jumps I've been on have been on 100+ way RW jumps. My canopy collision was on a RW bigway in 2007 (fortunately we didn't entangle or wrap).

No crossposting please.
John,

There is a big difference between flying an open canopy and dying under one. I was referring to his whine about swoop ponds going away. I agree that big ways do add more risk I can’t come up with more than a hand full of fatalities on big ways. (100+) Last year, 2011, 31 jumpers died under good canopies. This was out of a total of 56. If you know of any big way deaths please let know.

Sparky


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 6, 2012, 9:30 PM)


freddysdaddy

Oct 7, 2012, 2:27 AM
Post #173 of 228 (1379 views)
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Re: Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any first hand infos about the collision itself? At that time, there were 100 other experienced jumpers nearby.
There must have been several ground cameras as well?
Any statement by the other person involved?

Seems to be very much speculation about this incident here.


RobertMBlevins

Oct 7, 2012, 10:06 PM
Post #174 of 228 (1071 views)
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Re: [TheBachelor] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Per her Facebook page :https://www.facebook.com/irina.sinitsina.1, she suffered a "Severe traumatic brain injury." (Translated from Russian). Blue Skies Magazine has a brief article about the incident, but there's nothing new there.

'Severe traumatic brain injury' usually means the victim is on complete life support and the only thing keeping them alive are machines. If you want to establish a fund for the family, encourage them to open a PayPal account, or anything similar that is recognized in Russia.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 8, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #175 of 228 (889 views)
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Re: [freddysdaddy] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

STILL no real details??

100 people on that jump, at least 9 people in the lead diamond KNOW some details of how long they took the mad skillz diamond leading the formation...

Was a language barrier an issue?

Was the other person in collision also a foreigner?

Were the people on the jump qualified to make such a formation jump, or were they taking anybody willing to put a dress on?? (except for the ones they are politically at odds against anyway)

I still believe simply writing this off to a big way risk of collision is the wrong attitude to take. That was but one link in this chain.


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #176 of 228 (1674 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

You are being really offensive. Is that on purpose? Whatever you think about the politics or skill sets involved surly you know we are all human beings trying to safely further a sport we all love. Please be respectful if you can.

Quote:
STILL no real details??

100 people on that jump, at least 9 people in the lead diamond KNOW some details of how long they took the mad skillz diamond leading the formation...

The leading 9way diamond broke off at 3.5k as planned.

Quote:
Was a language barrier an issue?

Was the other person in collision also a foreigner?

The other person speaks english as well as any american, I believe he is foreign though. As breakoff procedures seem to have been followed and little or no communication occured between jumpers I do not >think< language was an issue.

Quote:
Were the people on the jump qualified to make such a formation jump, or were they taking anybody willing to put a dress on?? (except for the ones they are politically at odds against anyway)

While I cannot honestly claim to know each and everyone of the 120 people (including those on the bench) well enough to answer that, while registering I and everyone else were asked about our experience and gear choices. Of the 40 or so I do know well enough all had the experience and gear to be there, IMO. At no point did I feel someone around me was making inexperienced choices. Both jumpers directly involved in the collision were very experienced with both wingsuiting and big ways.

Quote:
...or were they taking anybody willing to put a dress on?? (except for the ones they are politically at odds against anyway)

Politics are exciting at times but have nothing to do with this incident. Shame on you for bringing it up in this thread. Go play in the mud at the wingsuiting/general forum. Oh wait, you already are.

Quote:

I still believe simply writing this off to a big way risk of collision is the wrong attitude to take. That was but one link in this chain.

I agree all incidents have several issues leading up to them, and we should always try and uncover as many of them as possible. I hope I have answered some of your questions regarding the issues you have brought up as possibly contributing to this incident.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #177 of 228 (1671 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

"The leading 9way diamond broke off at 3.5k as planned."

I have been told by people that were part of the leading 9-way this is NOT true. Nor was that what was planned, agreed to, or done.
I have been told by a number of people the average experience on this jump was approx. 300 wingsuit jumps.


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:08 AM
Post #178 of 228 (1665 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

As for breakoff, that is the info I have. Perhaps it is wrong.

As for average experience I have no statistics but that sound wrong to me. At any rate both jumpers involved in this incident had significantly more experience then that, so the point is moot IMO.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 8, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #179 of 228 (1655 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Language - maybe, that's why I asked.
Breakoff at 2500?
Foolish.


rnicks  (A License)

Oct 8, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #180 of 228 (1608 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As for breakoff, that is the info I have. Perhaps it is wrong.

You are not wrong. As part of the 9 way, breakoff was at 3500, NOT 2500 and performed as we had practiced. I doubt the authenticity of normiss's statement that somebody from the 9 way told him different.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 8, 2012, 12:30 PM
Post #181 of 228 (1598 views)
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Re: [rnicks] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Two people in that group claims otherwise, that's why I asked.
It would have a lot of influence on EP's.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 8, 2012, 1:18 PM)


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 8, 2012, 12:38 PM
Post #182 of 228 (1590 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Language - maybe, that's why I asked.
Breakoff at 2500?
Foolish.

I call BS on that.

A. That would never be a sensible plan. No organizer would plan for that.

B. There were multiple video angles in the area. While debriefing we were told breakoff was as planned and I see no reason for a cover up.

C. Robin posted above me as, she was inside the 9 way diamond.

D. All the video guys posted all the videos in skydivingphotography.com. Look at Noah Bhason's angle of the last jump, he follows the nine way and deploys above it shortly after it breaks off. The first wave of breakoff was planned and executed for 5.5. I was there. Eight second later the second breakoff wave occurs, symmetrically on both sides, so 4.5 breakoff went as planned. Eight second later, and no where near 15 second or so a 2k feet flight would last, the 9 way breaks off.


(This post was edited by miconar on Oct 8, 2012, 12:41 PM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 8, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #183 of 228 (1526 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Two people in that group claims otherwise, that's why I asked.
It would have a lot of influence on EP's.

I watched the 9 way breakoff in the dirt dive and in the air. I was in the group to breakoff before them and you better bet I wanted to know where they were.

They planned and did break off at 3500 so whoever is tell you otherwise either wasn't in that group or wasn't following the plan.

These 2 jumpers have more experience than many on the jump including non-wingsuit bigways. I know everyone wants to go after the experience level of the team but you are barking up the wrong tree.

What I learned from this.

- Nobody is untouchable by the hand of death. If you think you are wise up, you are kidding yourself.
- If you want to minimize your chances of injury and death in skydiving avoid bigways
- If you want to be 100% safe then stay home. I have even seen people plough into the viewing gallery so nowhere is safe. - Not at this event...!

I wanted to add. Language barrier would have been an issue. The deceased was in my plane so I spent a lot of time in briefings with her. She could converse in english for sure but in the heat of the moment I would be impressed if english came out of her mouth.


(This post was edited by WickedWingsuits on Oct 8, 2012, 1:58 PM)


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 8, 2012, 2:06 PM
Post #184 of 228 (1512 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"
I have been told by a number of people the average experience on this jump was approx. 300 wingsuit jumps.

Were you told that by an organizer with access to the forms people filled in?

I have heard a lot of the rumors and misinformation about how crazy unsafe this was because of the lack of experience. Except none of that seems to come from anyone that was actually there watching.

I was on the 68 way and let me tell you I was scared to death. I didn't think I would do another big way but I went to this one to be with my friends. This event was a totally different level compared to that of the past. Those that demonstrated ANY kind of safety issues were moved onto the bench.

I saw a guy make a mistake in front of me, get in the wrong slot and move across the formation in an unsafe manner. He wasn't on the next jump. I know of another jumper that had a bad exit...was on the bench the next jump.

Not only were there leading wingsuit organizers involved but DanBC played an obvious role. That might be one of the reasons this was on a totally different level from last time.

Was it safe? Hell no we were jumping from 5 planes. Was it as safe as possible. Yes, I believe it was. - Please don't quote only half of that statement anyone. Wink

A good team member died and the worst part of it is I think it was shit happens. That's tougher to swallow than something that can easily be fixed, in my opinion.

Edited to add: I think some people would not be comfortable breaking off at 3500. The organizers made it VERY clear in the team briefings that if someone needed to switch slots to either help in the approach or in the breakoff they could. The front 9 was given a chance to request a higher breakoff group if desired.


(This post was edited by WickedWingsuits on Oct 8, 2012, 2:07 PM)


omnia

Oct 8, 2012, 2:15 PM
Post #185 of 228 (1502 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Breakoff for 64 out of the 100 was at 5.5k (opening at 3.5k). 27 more people in the front 36 diamond broke off at 4.5k. Front 9, as stated before, broke off at 3.5k and had plenty of separation from the other groups.

As for why the people there haven't posted more...many of us broke off, flew, and landed away from the incident and did not see it happen. The only thing I do know is the video showed them breaking off away away from each other in straight lines, creating adequate separation between each other as well as the other flyers. There probably are individuals who know a bit more than that but have stayed out of this thread as they've seen it get filled with politics, false speculation, and insults.

I do not know the average experience level of wingsuiters at the event, but I am curious where you got the 300 figure?
Both individuals involved in the collision were very experienced.

EDITED TO ADD: Just for the sake of only stating facts in this thread, I remembered that the jump on which the incident occurred was a 98-way and not a 100-way as stated. 62 people broke off at 5.5k, rather than 64 on the 100 ways we did the previous day. Carry on...


(This post was edited by omnia on Oct 8, 2012, 7:59 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 8, 2012, 2:46 PM
Post #186 of 228 (1474 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Two people in that group claims otherwise, that's why I asked.

BS. Utter BS.

I led one of the 4.5k breakoff groups, and if you watch the video on the photography web site you'll see there's No F. way the 9-way waited until 2.5k after my group broke.

Whoever is behind the scenes feeding you information clearly has an agenda to push.


omnia

Oct 8, 2012, 4:33 PM
Post #187 of 228 (1401 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Two people in that group claims otherwise, that's why I asked.
It would have a lot of influence on EP's.

Where did you get this info from?
Did you personally hear this from them?


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:25 PM
Post #188 of 228 (1282 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been told by people that were part of the leading 9-way this is NOT true. Nor was that what was planned, agreed to, or done.
I have been told by a number of people the average experience on this jump was approx. 300 wingsuit jumps.

Mark, following the last few posts from you, in sequence, is quite bewildering. Here is a summary:

1) "Will somebody please come forward with details about the 9-way base breakoff? We have no details, we need details. Somebody please speak up."
2) [multiple members of the 9-way base speak up, inform you of when they broke off]
3) "Oh really? Because I heard otherwise, from other members of the base."

What are you trying to accomplish with this line of thought? Why claim to have no info, wait for actual named people to publicly give the info you "need," only to then claim that you do in fact have info already, which (a) conflicts with the info posted here by real people publicly and (b) comes from anonymous private sources? Is this some kind of weird bait and switch? If you're going to quote somebody, give their name. If not, leave them out of it. It's an insult to the people who are posting here under their real names, for you to call them liars because of your mysterious underground informants, especially when that act follows their graciously answering the questions which you were claiming to be ignorant on.


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #189 of 228 (1280 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been told by a number of people the average experience on this jump was approx. 300 wingsuit jumps.

I do not know if that is true or false, but I do know it's irrelevant.

What do the jump numbers of 103 other people have to do with the jump numbers of the 2 who collided?


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 8, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #190 of 228 (1278 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A. That would never be a sensible plan. No organizer would plan for that.

Nor would Dan BC allow anything close to that.

He watched a lot of the dirt dives (literally, he went into the field for a lot of them, where the breakoff altitudes were shouted over a bullhorn).
He watched the deployments from the LZ.
He watched just about every debrief video.


(This post was edited by The111 on Oct 8, 2012, 7:30 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 9, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #191 of 228 (1040 views)
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Re: [The111] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

How many AAD fires did he watch?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #192 of 228 (1028 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Enough. If you have information on the dive you want to share, post it. If you want to snipe at people do so in another forum.




miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 9, 2012, 11:10 AM
Post #194 of 228 (940 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

This incident involved a properly planned, properly executed break off. Many eye witnesses were there, several stepped up over here including some from the actual 9 way you claim sucked it down, and there is video evidence available on line to support it.

This incident did not involve an AAD fire. Yes there was an unrelated near save where a jumper pulled his reserve low and the cutter fired after the reserve pull - loop was already out of the cutter.

post edited to remove argument with another poster


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 9, 2012, 4:02 PM)












michalm21  (Student)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #200 of 228 (786 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you fly wingsuits?
Serious question.












Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #206 of 228 (1685 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

What is your theory then? Amongst all the questions I don't clearly understand what you have concluded.


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:08 PM
Post #207 of 228 (1667 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen video footage of the front 9-way breakoff which looked exactly to plan, and mirrored what we had practised and successfully executed >20 times in the sky over the preceding 4 days. Given the break-off trajectories of the two skydivers in question, it made news of the resultant collision quite surprising; why this happened is still somewhat of a mystery.

You can't know anything that myself, Simon, Omnia and John (amongst others) don't already know - and many more who have examined in detail the available information first hand.

edited to remove links to deleted argument


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 9, 2012, 4:05 PM)


pms07  (D 7571)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:10 PM
Post #208 of 228 (1663 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can confirm the breakoff of the front 9 way was absolutely NOT at 2500’, but rather at ~3500’ as planned. I flew next to Irina all week and saw the breakoff although my group left at 4500’. There is some video of the incident jump online and I was also wearing a Go Pro. The video seems to support exactly what I and others have said.

I don’t know about the average number of wingsuit jumps per participant overall and have no stats to further that discussion. But I don’t believe anyone that knows the two jumpers involved in the incident would question their experience or qualification. And there appears to be no relationship between the overall experience level and the incident.

We know large formation jumps add an element of risk. We accept that risk when we sign on. But the Perris event organizers did an outstanding job in emphasizing large formation safety issues.

To help manage risk on bigways, people are pre-qualified to attend. That’s also why we have intricate and higher altitude breakoff plans. That’s why we ground practice those plans for what seems like hours and demand discipline in execution. That’s why we listen to briefings for what seems like hours. That’s why anyone that appears intent to vary from the breakoff plan or violate safety protocol is corrected immediately…or maybe even ejected from the event. All that was part of the plan at the Perris event and the breakoff itself seemed well designed and executed.

In addition, Dan BC was hands-on involved in discussion of the breakoff plan, was in almost every team briefing, watched the ground practice of breakoff, and was in the landing area watching breakoff, patterns and landings for pretty much every jump of the event. I’ve never been to an event where there was a more experienced or better qualified individual focused on large formation safety issues with the organizers and team.

Honest question normiss: I don’t understand your theory, what is it you actually think contributed to the accident?


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 9, 2012, 4:06 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #209 of 228 (1621 views)
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Re: [pms07] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

From the information I have been given, including some that are publicly saying it aint so Crazy.

The person that collided with the deceased was not current in wingies and used to practice jumps as a recurrency. If not - then that's gone.
Jumped a large wingsuit with a little canopy. Why? If not - then that's gone too.
That goes back to my asking about gear details - but as a group that was dismissed early on too.
Breakoff and/or opening was what altitude? This could impact her time to deal with a mal.
What could have contributed to the line twists?

It seems to me, based on all the information, that an off heading opening and/or line twists created the major issue...what can we look at to reduce that risk next time?

Break off?
Tracking?
Gear choices?

Are these really bad questions to ask?
It's odd why everyone thinks I have an agenda - clearly you don't know me personally.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 9, 2012, 2:55 PM
Post #210 of 228 (1605 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Currency?

By the time of this jump, everyone on the load had done at least 20 wingsuit bigways in the previous 4 days. Most had attended the pre-camp so had done even more.

Breakoff? The videos showed that the 98 way, the 36-way and the 9-way staged breakoffs went as planned.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 9, 2012, 4:06 PM)


Skybear

Oct 9, 2012, 3:06 PM
Post #211 of 228 (1585 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The person that collided with the deceased was not current in wingies and used to practice jumps as a recurrency.

Not correct. This guy jumps at my home dropzone and I know him personally. He did over 500 jumps this year and has a total of somewhere around 3000. We did some wingsuit jumps together this year and he is definitely skilled enough for wingsuits as well as for bigways. He participated also in the 138-HD-record and had no safety issues there as far as I know.

As numerous people said the break-off plan was safe in planning and execution. I left at 4500 and was on the left wing of my break-off group. Therefore I had to watch the 9-way all the time to make sure that we stay clear. Nothing unusual there.

In my opinion the reason of the collision was simply an off-heading opening. Contributing factors were:
-choice of canopy/wingload
-everyone was a little exhausted after 4 days of jumping in the heat
-everyone tended to be in a relaxed mood as we had the record already
-the surviving jumper had a cold in the days before. Maybe this had some impact on his reaction speed, but this is speculation right now (to be clarified)
-plus some more if we all think long enough

This is all I know as facts and I won't do another post here in this forum. The way this discussion is led by some people shows a serious disrespect for the deceased. Please stop that and start trying to learn from it. Don't blame others if you can't be sure that you had made it better in the same situation.




Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 9, 2012, 4:19 PM
Post #213 of 228 (1502 views)
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Re: [Skybear] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know it's probably been posted but I just can't find it.

Will someone please post the canopy type and wingloading of the two jumpers involved?

.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #214 of 228 (1488 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Will someone please post the canopy type and wingloading of the two jumpers involved?

Per earlier posts, one canopy was a Crossfire 2 loaded at about 1.6-1.7. Other not known.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Oct 9, 2012, 4:40 PM
Post #215 of 228 (1481 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 9, 2012, 7:14 PM
Post #216 of 228 (1402 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

No-one has ever done this size of wingsuit formation before. It would certainly be acceptable on a RW or VRW formation of this size.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Oct 9, 2012, 11:23 PM
Post #217 of 228 (1285 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6+ ?

In my opinion (having maybe 150 WS jumps with the Crossfire2 as the main at a similar WL) - that is borderline dangerous for a "regular" skydive, and absolutely unacceptable for a WS bigway. (Part of a reason I jump square 7 cells for WS)


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 10, 2012, 1:20 AM
Post #218 of 228 (1258 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6+ ?

In my opinion (having maybe 150 WS jumps with the Crossfire2 as the main at a similar WL) - that is borderline dangerous for a "regular" skydive, and absolutely unacceptable for a WS bigway. (Part of a reason I jump square 7 cells for WS)

And you are perfectly entitled to that opinion.

Having jumped over 400 ws jumps and 800 total jumps on a crossfire loaded 1.5 including during this event, that has not been my experience, both in heading performance and behavior while and tendency to line twist.

In this incident it has been established that the crossfire opened on heading. At the most the loading can be questioned and I believe it is in on the high side of acceptable. Remember you want a large variety of wing loadings to facilitate people landing staggered.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 10, 2012, 7:09 AM
Post #219 of 228 (1126 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6+ ?

In my opinion (having maybe 150 WS jumps with the Crossfire2 as the main at a similar WL) - that is borderline dangerous for a "regular" skydive, and absolutely unacceptable for a WS bigway. (Part of a reason I jump square 7 cells for WS)

Many RW bigways specify an acceptable WL range. For example, the POPS record web site recommends as follows:

"We recommend a wing loading between 1.25 and 1.75 (min and max)"

I believe the TSR 168 way had a similar recommendation.

As an observer at the recent VRW 138 way record, I am quite sure than many participants had WL of 1.6+


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 10, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #220 of 228 (1025 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In this incident it has been established that the crossfire opened on heading. At the most the loading can be questioned and I believe it is in on the high side of acceptable. Remember you want a large variety of wing loadings to facilitate people landing staggered.

Wouldn't this create a problem with people overtaking others in the pattern? Seems this would be equally dangerous, especially in a crowded pattern. ???


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 10, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #221 of 228 (1016 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, but it allows for good choices to create good seperation. The same wing loading for all would force almost everyone to either sink or float all the way down. That is my understanding and what I saw happen in the landing pattern during this event from inside, and other big ways from the out side, but I am no big way expert.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 10, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #222 of 228 (932 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Wouldn't this create a problem with people overtaking others in the pattern?

If everyone opens at the same altitude, a wide variety of wing loadings results in staggered landings (assuming similar patterns.)

This is complicated by having differing breakoff and deployment altitudes. That results in some overtaking. Keeping the "legal" range narrow helps mitigate this since people can fly a bit more slowly (or more quickly) and avoid overtaking.


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 10, 2012, 11:50 AM
Post #223 of 228 (925 views)
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Re: [billvon] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In light of what bill Said, I should clarify by wide range I meant something like the 1.25-1.75 mentioned above for example. I guess wide is different for different people.


birdynamnam  (D 179)

Oct 10, 2012, 12:18 PM
Post #224 of 228 (901 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Is this canopy choice and wing loading considered acceptable on this size wingsuit formation?

.

Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6+ ?

In my opinion (having maybe 150 WS jumps with the Crossfire2 as the main at a similar WL) - that is borderline dangerous for a "regular" skydive, and absolutely unacceptable for a WS bigway. (Part of a reason I jump square 7 cells for WS)

And you are perfectly entitled to that opinion.

Having jumped over 400 ws jumps and 800 total jumps on a crossfire loaded 1.5 including during this event, that has not been my experience, both in heading performance and behavior while and tendency to line twist.

In this incident it has been established that the crossfire opened on heading. At the most the loading can be questioned and I believe it is in on the high side of acceptable. Remember you want a large variety of wing loadings to facilitate people landing staggered.

I had 200+ WS jumps on a Crossfire2 loaded at 1.6, always on heading openings never a problem. Then suddenly I had two twist spin'ers that resulted in emerengcy procedure as I pulled that many G's that I could not get out of it. I switched to a Sabre2 loading it at 1.5. Twist no problems here. Even though that the Sabre2 opens off heading constantly, I think it is far safer to jump with than the Crossfire. Thing is when the Crossfire spins, it is violent, think about the vertical distance you will go in a spread out but still "stacked" formation of canopies. For me the way it reacts when twists occur is the reason I chose not to fly Crossfire anymore, I miss it though. But hey that a safety choice I did for myself and my wingsuit friends.


miconar  (D 1084)

Oct 10, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #225 of 228 (818 views)
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Re: [birdynamnam] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose it's a matter of personal choice. I have had spinning and none spinning twists on the crossfire with the suit on and between my personal (successful) experience with the safety sleeves and how she handles I feel confident with my choice. But the crossfire in this incident did not twist. I would like to hear from anyone with info on Irina's canopy, as I believe I saw here someone said it did twist (?).


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 11, 2012, 12:55 AM
Post #226 of 228 (1273 views)
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Re: [miconar] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, but it allows for good choices to create good seperation. The same wing loading for all would force almost everyone to either sink or float all the way down. That is my understanding and what I saw happen in the landing pattern during this event from inside, and other big ways from the out side, but I am no big way expert.

Most of this problem should be handled with the break sequence and assigned pull altitudes.

Sparky


tbrown  (D 6533)

Oct 11, 2012, 8:32 PM
Post #227 of 228 (1001 views)
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Re: [normiss] Injury at Perris????? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From the information I have been given, including some that are publicly saying it aint so Crazy.

The person that collided with the deceased was not current in wingies and used to practice jumps as a recurrency. If not - then that's gone.
Jumped a large wingsuit with a little canopy. Why? If not - then that's gone too.
That goes back to my asking about gear details - but as a group that was dismissed early on too.
Breakoff and/or opening was what altitude? This could impact her time to deal with a mal.
What could have contributed to the line twists?

It seems to me, based on all the information, that an off heading opening and/or line twists created the major issue...what can we look at to reduce that risk next time?

Break off?
Tracking?
Gear choices?

Are these really bad questions to ask?
It's odd why everyone thinks I have an agenda - clearly you don't know me personally.

Frankly, I have to ask why somebody on the east coast has such an insistent and vehement opinion on an event he didn't even see.

I only saw the very end of this incident, the reserve opening and taking a dive (as it appeared to me) into the ditch at the end of the runway. But all weekend, I saw plenty of these wingsuit dives from the ground and the breakoffs were remarkably well ordered, with plenty of altitude, as well as separation and openings.

Although not a wingsuiter, I am a Perris Valley skydiver and frankly disgusted with some of the "contributions" being offered in this thread. No wonder Dropzone.com's reputation is in the shitter.

As to your suggestion of AAD deployments, I saw none and heard of none. You clearly have an agenda.


(This post was edited by tbrown on Oct 11, 2012, 8:35 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 30, 2012, 8:24 PM
Post #228 of 228 (543 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Fatality (Was injury) - Perris, CA - 23 Sept 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually don't ask for "any more information?" on accident threads, because it doesn't magically create more. But this time I figured I'd check on this dead thread.

A well respected skydiver at a major DZ has some form of failure of the reserve to operate properly after deployment and almost nothing in the thread addresses that?

The posted video shows about 6 seconds between seeing a canopy, and impact, with what seems like immediate, rapid spiralling on opening, that diminishes somewhat towards the end.

Reserve damage? Main canopy jettisoned cleanly? Unstable reserve deployment & partial entanglement? Toggle settings found after impact? Hands in toggles or not?

Gear analysis will of course tend to be tougher because the scene gets disturbed if you don't die on impact...



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