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Demoing my reserve - questions

 

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hillson  (D 33134)

Sep 20, 2012, 3:06 PM
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Demoing my reserve - questions Can't Post

Signed up to demo my last chance (OP160) and have a few questions...some of which I also asked PD. Also searched here but didn't really answer my questions...

Um...so what should I do? I assume it is a high pull / get out at 5 type of thing...terminal not reccomended. Yes?

Any specific drills - outside of std control checks, practice flares etc? Figure some rear riser work incase I really have to use the reserve and I have jacked toggles or something. Anything.

Most of the packers at the dz also have their ticket...worth it to ask them to pack it "like" a reserve instead of std pro?

Not a substantial WL difference. About 1.13-1.14 (Pulse 170) on the main...bought it around 1.13 and have been closer to 1.17 when I decided to get rid of the beer weight. Back to normal weight now. Reserve will be ~1.2.

So...just wondering if there is anything specific that I should do...either that or I'm just asking dumb questions

Thx.


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 20, 2012, 3:13 PM
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Take it terminal - you might have to on the real thing so you should have confidence that you know what it's like.

2. Find the stall point, practice flares, landing accuracy

Good on you for demoing a reserve - most don't. I think it's a great thing to do.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 20, 2012, 4:31 PM
Post #3 of 42 (3767 views)
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

>Um...so what should I do? I assume it is a high pull / get out at 5 type
>of thing...terminal not reccomended. Yes?

Up to you. I wouldn't take it to terminal; somewhat painful and you're not learning any more about how to fly it at terminal.

>Any specific drills - outside of std control checks, practice flares etc?

Rear riser turns with brakes stowed and unstowed. Rear riser flares with brakes stowed and unstowed. Stall point. Flat turns. Recovery arc.

>worth it to ask them to pack it "like" a reserve instead of std pro?

Again I don't think it matters much. Other than deploying stable/head high you're not going to need any additional skills to get the reserve to open.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 20, 2012, 5:02 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Take it terminal - you might have to on the real thing so you should have confidence that you know what it's like.

NO WAY JOSE!!!!.

Bad idea.

I doubt you will find any experienced jumper who would agree with that.

As Bill points out, there is no point. Apart from the risk of damaging it, or yourself, the value of your reserve should you wish to sell it instantly drops.

Having said that, there is no reason why it can't be done without a problem, but if you hve a choice, why would you bother. The factory employs test jumpers to take reserves to terminal. leave it to them.

Do a nice easy sub terminal delay, up high, deploy cleanly and stable.

Have a good look at it before you release brakes,then have a good play with the canopy...have some specific tasks pre planned, and carry them out, taking note of how the canopy behaves for any given task, including altitude loss. effects of wind on flight path, set up and landing.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Sep 20, 2012, 6:34 PM
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Re: [obelixtim] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Take it terminal - you might have to on the real thing so you should have confidence that you know what it's like.

NO WAY JOSE!!!!.

Bad idea.

I doubt you will find any experienced jumper who would agree with that.

As Bill points out, there is no point. Apart from the risk of damaging it, or yourself, the value of your reserve should you wish to sell it instantly drops.

I think he's talking about a demo canopy with pc attachment from PD. Not his reserve.

I'd vote for subterminal. Won't be RC and spring loaded PC so you wouldn't get the full experience (PC hesitationTongue) anyway. An old fart like me that likes their main parachutes to open instead of streamer for 800' probably wouldn't mind the reserve opening so much. But since you jump a pulse you would think you hit the ground when the reserve opened at terminal.Cool


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 20, 2012, 7:02 PM
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Re: [councilman24] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think he's talking about a demo canopy with pc attachment from PD. Not his reserve.


He said he'd talked to PD, but it seemed to me he may have been talking about his own reserve.

I would have thought PD would have given him advice on the Sub terminal/terminal deployment, especially if it was one of theirs.

Can the OP clarify that?.


monkycndo  (D License)

Sep 20, 2012, 7:15 PM
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Taking an OP terminal is surprisingly not that hard of an opening. My scale of what I consider a hard opening might be a bit skewed as I have a lot of jumps on Sabres loaded anywhere from 1.2-1.6 and think a long sniveling canopy is a mal that eventually clears.

I have demo'd a PD-R and an OP loaded at 1.5, both at sub and terminal. The PD-R definitely was much more brisk compared to the OP. The first jump on the OP was sub terminal and it was a great opening. Soft and relatively slow. Second jump on it was at terminal after a 10 second delay out of a KA. The opening was brisk, but not hard. The opening "shock" was staged throughout the entire deployment. What impressed me even more than the opening, was how nice it flared. I'm glad I took it terminal so I would know what to expect if I ever have to do so. Rather do it first in a very controlled situation instead of it being my only and last option.

YMMV

I was so happy with the demo, I bought one.


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Sep 20, 2012, 8:46 PM
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I assume you are talking about the PD optimum demo setup that comes with a pilot chute and deployment bag and a set of main risers.

Have no fear taking it to terminal. I demo'ed an OP143 loaded at 1.5 and I perceived that it opened more gently than a Katana 120 at 1.8. I'd be a lot more hesitant to take it terminal if it were packed like a reserve with the nose opened up and the tail not wrapped around.

As for flying it, great advice already given. Pretend you're in a tight spot, fly a braked pattern, braked turns, and braked approach. See how much you can sink it without stalling (I don't think I was able to stall it with toggles). Practice the flare a lot. I don't have a whole lot of jumps on F111 canopies, but the flare seems to be a bit deeper. Practice.

Have fun with it, too. See if you can scare people with your solid orange canopy.


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 20, 2012, 9:31 PM
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Re: Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

My comments are based on jumping a OM143 at terminal at Summerfest as advised by the PD Team.

The opening was totally comfortable and the canopy flew like a main. It was stable on the fronts and had good flare.

I have not jumped any other reserve, but the OP/OM is fine at terminal. FACT.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Sep 20, 2012, 9:36 PM
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

As always on this site..... some very good advice like those who have given you drills and things to practice while flying it.

And some not so correct advice.

I have jumped the OP143 many many times and have always taken it to terminal. I once used it for an entire weekend while I was load organizing at an event.

If you are using it as a demo from PD (which it sounds as though you are) then it is set up as a main and the openings will not be painful.

One of the participants was using an OP for a main while on the VFS World Record at Skydive Chicago this summer. Believe me - he was going terminal and probably more.

My son - who used to work for PD - often used an OP for his main when he did FS jumps bigger than 40 ways.

It is an awesome canopy and kudos to you for deciding to find out how it flys before you need to take it into some tight off field landing after it just saved your life.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 20, 2012, 9:39 PM
Post #11 of 42 (3621 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

>Taking an OP terminal is surprisingly not that hard of an opening.

Agreed. I've deployed Ravens, PD-R's and Optimums at terminal, and of the three the Optimum was by far the softest. (Not soft but also not "did I break a line?" hard like the Raven.)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 20, 2012, 9:43 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have not jumped any other reserve, but the OP/OM is fine at terminal. FACT.

Is the "FACT" based on a freebag deployment and a reserve slider or a PC deployment and standard slider?


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 20, 2012, 9:47 PM
Post #13 of 42 (3616 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have not jumped any other reserve, but the OP/OM is fine at terminal. FACT.

Is the "FACT" based on a freebag deployment and a reserve slider or a PC deployment and standard slider?

It was (as stated) based on an OM set-up. ie. Optimum as a main which is what the Original Poster was talking about. Attached d-bag and regular reserve slider.

This is how PD set their demos up.


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 20, 2012, 10:42 PM
Post #14 of 42 (3602 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have not jumped any other reserve, but the OP/OM is fine at terminal. FACT.

Is the "FACT" based on a freebag deployment and a reserve slider or a PC deployment and standard slider?

Tell you a fact. After a terminal reserve deployment last Saturday (Tempo) I've only just stopped walking bow leggedLaughLaugh

Only thing I can add is practice flaring and really pay attention to how it responds in the flare. It really was very different to my main.

I had a nice soft landing, but I had committed to a full PLF by 2000 feet, so I didn't even try standing up the landing.


scottd818  (C 41314)

Sep 21, 2012, 9:16 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I bought a Smart reserve and contacted Aerodyne about demoing a Smart as my main, but they told me due to lack of interest they no longer demo Smarts set up as mains. I was bummed i really wanted a chance to fly my reserve in a controlled jump.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 21, 2012, 10:16 AM
Post #16 of 42 (3496 views)
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a PD-160 reserve. I load it at maximum capacity. I had to use it twice at terminal speed. No problem. It is as sweet as silk. Reserves are designed for slow and soft opening. However, a reserve is a reserve and it is not going to give you the comfort of a main. Therefore, for landing, choose a nice grassy place and do a good PLF. If you plan to deploy a reserve, try it as a main (PD demo available) or do a cut away at altitude of (3500-4000 ft) and wear a tertiary canopy. You always need (according regulations) one parachute extra than the number of parachutes you want to use. And tell your intentions to everybody on the ground + the pilot. You don't want your main to be lost, isn't it !


Deyan  (D 322)

Sep 21, 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #17 of 42 (3475 views)
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So...just wondering if there is anything specific that I should do...either that or I'm just asking dumb questions

Thx.

People will crucified me for this, but you might be interested in how the canopy reacts on line twists.
After all, when the shit hit the fan, you might be 1000 ft above the ground with 5 twist.

Just be aware that if you do something as stupid as packing your parachute with line twists, you might end up using your reserve.


B52  (D License)

Sep 21, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #18 of 42 (3444 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I demoed an optimum (so 2 reserves in my rig), took it to sub & terminal, no problem. The opening was quick, but if you are in good shape you can handle it. If I demoed my reserve again I wouldn't take it to terminal. No good reason to do so.

Practice flaring, accuracy, half brake turns,...regular pack job.

Great, that you are demoing your reserve.


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 21, 2012, 2:08 PM
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Re: [erdnarob] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You always need (according regulations) one parachute extra than the number of parachutes you want to use.

Can you provide a reference for this, please?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 21, 2012, 4:19 PM
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Re: [councilman24] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But since you jump a pulse you would think you hit the ground when the reserve opened at terminal.Cool
I've got 3 round reserve rides (all terminal), one was front mount, and about 8-9 square reserve rides, 3 at terminal.

The front mount round knocked me into next week ( I actually DID think I hit the ground), but all the piggy back reserve rides were okay, just a little brisk. YMMV. I know you've had your share too. Smile


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Sep 21, 2012, 4:46 PM
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow...there is some terrible advice being given in this thread by some very experienced people! That's what makes DZ.com so amusing! Haha.

Telling you not to take it to terminal without a clue, and having everyone who's jumped one as a demo telling you that's what it's designed for and there is no issue. No sense in being scared what will happen if you open at terminal. Afterall, you want the full experience right? My experience aligns with everyone else who is experienced with the canopy. It works great and barely opens any harder than any main I've ever jumped.

Also, the comment about a reserve not flying like a main? What? That is 100% inaccurate, unless you're jumping a completely baffed out POS, or you don't know how to fly a canopy. Some reserves do fly pretty terrible, but generally you can land those just fine as well. No PLF necessary at all.

As for my experience, I've done 9 jumps using an OP143 demo. 3 wingsuit jumps, 2 H+P's, and a couple of everyday terminal jumps. Absolutely great openings, and amazing flare. I did this when I had right around 200 jumps and had absolutely zero issues flaring

Listen to the people who've jumped it. Jump it as high as you can and spend as much time doing whatever you want. Stall, rear riser flare/control, sharp turns/avoidance maneuvers, and of course practice flaring.

Have fun (and go terminal)!


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 21, 2012, 5:01 PM
Post #22 of 42 (3391 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow...there is some terrible advice being given in this thread by some very experienced people! That's what makes DZ.com so amusing! Haha.

Telling you not to take it to terminal without a clue, and having everyone who's jumped one as a demo telling you that's what it's designed for and there is no issue. No sense in being scared what will happen if you open at terminal. Afterall, you want the full experience right? My experience aligns with everyone else who is experienced with the canopy. It works great and barely opens any harder than any main I've ever jumped.

Also, the comment about a reserve not flying like a main? What? That is 100% inaccurate, unless you're jumping a completely baffed out POS, or you don't know how to fly a canopy. Some reserves do fly pretty terrible, but generally you can land those just fine as well. No PLF necessary at all.

As for my experience, I've done 9 jumps using an OP143 demo. 3 wingsuit jumps, 2 H+P's, and a couple of everyday terminal jumps. Absolutely great openings, and amazing flare. I did this when I had right around 200 jumps and had absolutely zero issues flaring

Listen to the people who've jumped it. Jump it as high as you can and spend as much time doing whatever you want. Stall, rear riser flare/control, sharp turns/avoidance maneuvers, and of course practice flaring.

Have fun (and go terminal)!

So you believe a tempo flies and flares like a Sabre? Shocked Laugh


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Sep 21, 2012, 5:03 PM
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Re: [nigel99] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, if that's what you inferred from what I wrote, then I'm going to infer that you can't land a Tempo standing up, am I correct?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 21, 2012, 5:49 PM
Post #24 of 42 (3365 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also, the comment about a reserve not flying like a main? What? That is 100% inaccurate, unless you're jumping a completely baffed out POS, or you don't know how to fly a canopy.

You're having fun there Chris!

But I'm starting to get the feeling that a portion of the newer jumpers out there just don't have much of a clue if it isn't a zero-p 9 cell.

So from our perspective (who feel we can land all sorts of shit), yes, they don't know how to land a canopy.

I know one guy who was confronted with his first reserve ride, the smallest canopy he had yet flown. His error was to think because he was descending steeper and faster than usual, he'd start gradually introducing the first stage of his flare higher and earlier. Well, the reserve isn't going to retain energy like a typical main, so he just about buried himself in spring mud. He was lucky it was there.

It shows that what seems entirely natural to some of us to deal with, has to be explained to others. So some warning that a reserve doesn't fly quite like a main is a first step.

As for terminal, yes the Optimum is great for those. Other designs less so. (But again, it depends on the person, whether they are a Spectre flyer or know Sabre 1's.)


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 21, 2012, 6:06 PM
Post #25 of 42 (3357 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I am coming back soon with more info.


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