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Would you ground this canopy?

 

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RIGGER  (D 7933)

Sep 19, 2012, 1:41 AM
Post #26 of 46 (1437 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Smile Hi

The post is: Would you grounded this h/c ???

Few years ago an Israeli skydiver visited a DZ & a gear shop in CA. & bought a full rig which was ASS. I&R at DZ's loft by a rigger.

He came to our DZ happy to jump proud of his new rig - the rig got a pre-jump inspection & packing date card check.

Findingson the h/c & after getting the reserve cost info. from the owner:
*The skydiver was charged US$400 for a 20 years 2 month old Firelite R without any written history - only the last Ass.I&R (All FCI's reserves should not be clamp tested by FCI's instructions)
***The owner didn't has any idea on that.
****Same rig was with an AAD BUT the reserve loop was OUT of the Cutter Hole !!! I know it will not stop a manual pull of the reserve ripcord but the AAD will do ZERO if needed.
****The Reflex h/c had a mandatory SB on the TOP main container flap grommet after a fatality happaned in CA. The SB on that specific Reflex was made WRONG = position of the Ty.17 dimple & the use of a SHORT SHANK #0 SS grommet instead of the LONG SHANK #0 SS grommet & washer.
****The reserve ripcord cable was found 2" longer = 2" below the bottom leg of the "D" handle.
****The Reflex external reserve p/c was free & the main parachute line could snag under it.

I trace the rigger & talk to him - he was a great person & had the willing to learn - really nice person.

***I gave my opinoin to my customer free of charge even I spent hours on that.

This loft from CA USA provided a skydiver a RISKY system in the way it was served & charge for that "Rigging Work" good money !!!

Myself & the DZO / Shop owner used to be friends, I even visited him there but after talking to him about this subject he turn his friendship to dislike position. (I'm using kind words)

Would you grounded this system & fix all before next jump or jump it as is ????

Safe Rigging !!!


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Sep 19, 2012, 4:12 AM)
Attachments: REFLEX P.C SETTING (2).JPG (145 KB)
  REFLEX P.C SETTING (3).JPG (148 KB)
  REFLEX SB F SI-1005 REV.1.JPG (84.1 KB)
  RESERVE RIP. CABLE 2 INCH LONGER.JPG (185 KB)
  RIGGER ERROR - EMPTY CUTTER.JPG (84.7 KB)
  RIGGING ERROR.JPG (81.6 KB)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Sep 19, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #27 of 46 (1362 views)
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     Re: [RIGGER] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

S~,

Thanks for the complete write up.
The description as given by the OP did not, in and of itself, give any reason to "ground". (the OP's question)

This sounds like a much more complete, rational, reasonable summary of what was found and suggested.

While two professionals can do a competent review of equipment and come to two different decisions on assesment, recommendations, repairs, quality and price, (especially when they are from different areas/countries) it did not seem to me that the OP's summary would fit with what I have seen of your approach to rigging.

Blue Skies,
JW


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 19, 2012, 11:50 AM
Post #28 of 46 (1349 views)
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     Re: Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

A little courtesy would have helped here, one rigger talking to another if the one had serious issues with the other's work.

Still, the circumstances in this case are interesting to read, as they show how riggers can differ in their opinions about gear, that there isn't always one answer.


Premier Nigel  (D 99999)

Sep 19, 2012, 6:04 PM
Post #29 of 46 (1276 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
We received this canopy, a Silhuoette 150 for repair. It was grounded by a (the) rigger in Israel. Really!!
Canopy had 400 jumps, by a jumper that might weigh 100 Lbs. She was also told it would have to be re-lined. IMHO, this canopy & the lines are completely airworthy. BTW, he wanted $600 to patch and re-line the canopy.

I've bought several old canopies with much worse wear than this - including a Stiletto 120 from Action Air. I sent it to PD for a reline, patch repairs & inspection. Came back with new label on it (so I then could read the DoM - 1994 - and the serial #). I don't think there was much change from $600 (incl shipping and tax). I asked PD how many more jumps/use could expect. Reply was basically unlimited if properly cared for and maintained. I've put 500 jumps on it since, still seems fine, flares perfectly well. So...I think the Israeli riggers inspection and estimate are reasonable (I'm not a rigger & I'm lucky enough to be able to afford all necessary repairs)


miconar  (D 1084)

Sep 19, 2012, 9:28 PM
Post #30 of 46 (1230 views)
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     Re: [Nigel] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Disclaimer: I am not a rigger, just a skydiver that trusts some of them with his life, well being and the future of his family.

Since I didn't notice RIGGER's name mentioned here yet I wont be the first to use it.

I did my AFF and first 1200 jumps working and fun jumping in RIGGER's DZ and consider him to be (among other great instructors at that DZ) somewhat of a father figure as far as my skydiving career is concerned. I have since moved to the US, but I wanted to give my take on this as a former costumer, as it is not the first time I heard complaints here and elsewhere, and to be honest at times I was frustrated with him myself (you know I love you man :)

I will not speak about his competence as a rigger, as I am not in a position to pass judgment in that respect. I will say everything he said about his costumer service is 100% true and correct. I can not count the times I saw him repack a deployed reserve long after everyone has gone home but those that stayed over for the night or live near the DZ, or walked into the DZ early in the morning only to see that he has been there for hours repacking due reserve that expired or were deployed the previous day, not only so that we could work or fun jump immediately the next day, but so we wouldn't even have to miss the first load. I have personally seen him almost miss a flight (to PIA symposium I think) to assemble a temporary system for me to jump during his absence after I deployed my reserve on the last load of the day of his flight, all so I could keep working while he was gone (parts, labor and use of gear free of charge BTW). And it is very true that he never charges extra rush fee, but still gives immediate service almost always when possible. And I have yet to see a single DZ anywhere in the world where the rigger provides unlimited rubber bands and closing loops free of charge no questions asked like he does.

His fees are easily comparable with US prices even though everything in Israel is significantly more expensive and the taxes are high. Of course materials and parts are more expensive, but that's due to S&H and taxes.


I could go on, but what's the point. Just wanted to chime in as a costumer and say that while his PRO attitude is a common thing for many riggers (that I have met at least) his level of care and honest attempts to be helpful (within his standards of safty, which are higher then what some skydivers would like) is rare, and I for one am glad to have had him as a rigger and an instructor, and would give him back my business in a heart beat.


(This post was edited by miconar on Sep 19, 2012, 10:55 PM)


ActionAir  (D License)

Sep 20, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #31 of 46 (1113 views)
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     Re: [RIGGER] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In Response to: RIGGER
The post is: Would you grounded this h/c ???
------------------------------------------------------

The rigger that made this mistake (closing loop not through the cutter) went through retraining after this incident, then decided to quit rigging. So the problem was address and handled.

The jumper wanted an inexpensive rig, which is what he received. As far as the equipment was concerned, it was completely airworthy.

The rig owner was not allowed to jump this rig in Israel. I ended up refunding the owner his $ for the H&C, reserve and Vigil AAD (because RIGGER would not allow Vigils on his DZ). I provided him with another H&C and sold him a PD reserve and CYPRES at cost to help him out, so he could jump in Israel.

Trying to justify your BS by diverting attention to a what - 4 or 6 year old incident is lame. But it may work for the uninformed. Good luck.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #32 of 46 (1090 views)
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     Re: [mark] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
No approval = unairworthy canopy.

= big bucks for a rigger willing to unfairly exploit any 'approval' rule
I never though rigging was a way to make big money......unless you're crooked

(standardized requirements are a big win here to keep people from abusing rules like those for income - or to keep excessively conservative types from running roughshod over customers/the converse is true also - keeps riggers that are too loose from being flippant about real safety condition.)

The name of the rigger who made the initial determination has been left out of this thread, but it is clear that many of us know who he is. No one who knows him would say that he was using his position and reputation to make big bucks, and all of us would agree that it would be especially unfair to suggest that he is crooked.

Mark

thanks for the info - no intention was there to bash anyone specifically....

my comment was a generalized comment about any type of undefined rule that would allow someone to ground a visitor for any reason. thus the comment on generalized standards was real though. Good thing we have them.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Sep 20, 2012, 11:29 AM)


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 20, 2012, 1:35 PM
Post #33 of 46 (1052 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Not at all since there is no holes and the little bugs (two) are small as well. It looks like the fabric has been caught in barbed wire and/or squeezed on metal. Any rigger should understand that this is why ripstop is the material generally used in canopies construction. RIP STOP means it will STOP the RIP Madespecially the small ones. Easy enough to understand. Better yet, those little bugs would be OK on a reserve too because there is no holes I can see bigger than 1/4".
But OTOH I am not surprised : One time I asked to a very experienced and rated Israeli rigger what i needed to know if I wanted to go and jump in Istrael. Since they have a DZ below the sea level, it looks cool to me to make a couple of jumps there. 1) The answer was actually a question : What country are you from ? Skydivingly speaking...irrelevant. 2) we will check if the size of canopy you use is OK with your weight...I answered...even if I have experience with it...the answer was...yes.

To come back to the thread subject, as a rigger, if I would see such thing, I would mention to the owner that a scratch or hole on a canopy fabric never get smaller with use. I would also say that everything so far is OK but since your lines have 400 jumps and there are few bugs on the fabric, to keep a eye on them in ordre to control the evolution of the wear and bugs. That way, I give a sound advice not too drastic and put some responsibility on the jumper shoulders instead of trying to keep an absolute control by telling NO.


(This post was edited by erdnarob on Sep 20, 2012, 1:50 PM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Sep 20, 2012, 1:50 PM
Post #34 of 46 (1043 views)
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     Re: [erdnarob] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
But OTOH I am not surprised : One time I asked to a very experienced and rated Israeli rigger what i needed to know if I wanted to go and jump in Istrael. Since they have a DZ below the sea level, it looks cool to me to make a couple of jumps there. 1) The answer was actually a question : What country are you from ? Skydivingly speaking...irrelevant. 2) we will check if the size of canopy you use it OK with your weight...I answered...even if I have experience with it...the answer was...yes.
Sorry for the thread drift, but... their country + their DZ = their rules. Some DZ's in the states require you to have an AAD regardless of your experience, others restrict how you can fly your canopy regardless of your experience. Don't like their rules, no problem... don't jump there. Really want to jump there, but follow your own rules, start your own DZ.

JW


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 20, 2012, 2:07 PM
Post #35 of 46 (1033 views)
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     Re: [fcajump] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Yeah, one of our instructor stopped a New Zealand jumper from boarding with his go pro last weekend. He had all of 10 jumps, no clue how to turn on a cypres but was very miffed that he wasn't allowed to jump his fullface + gopro here "as he is allowed to jump it in NZ"

Pirate


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 20, 2012, 2:08 PM
Post #36 of 46 (1028 views)
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     Re: [masterrigger1] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Are you sure of that when you say the high pressure is located on the last 1/3rd of the canopy at the tail.

Why then Performance Designs asks us riggers to perform fabric tensile test on the tail (3 sec. 3 locations and 30 pounds away from any seam or edge) ?????. When a canopy inflates, the highest force is located on the canopy first third (the nose and a couple of feet behind) so is the pressure. If a line breaks, this is very often a A line where to force is the most intense.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 20, 2012, 2:25 PM
Post #37 of 46 (1021 views)
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     Re: [fcajump] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

I think in this case, we don't really have a problem of regulations but WE HAVE an attitude problem. It is not because you are a doctor that you know everything even if you give the patient tons of explanations.
You have to be like a scientist ie. a good engineer. Assess the situation objectively, don't let your personal preferences color your judgement and give an advice which cannot be criticized. Not always easy.
With such an attitude, no old airplanes even well maintained would fly. BTW I jumped recently from an Antonov An-2 designed in 1937.Wink

Everywhere you can see power trip and abuse of authority even seemingly about what brand of AAD you used. This is not the way to lead skydiving. And remember, I said, I am not surprised...that's all. And I know who is the rigger.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 20, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #38 of 46 (979 views)
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     Re: [dragon2] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Yeah, one of our instructor stopped a New Zealand jumper from boarding with his go pro last weekend. He had all of 10 jumps, no clue how to turn on a cypres but was very miffed that he wasn't allowed to jump his fullface + gopro here "as he is allowed to jump it in NZ"

Pirate

I don't think so.

Sounds like something an Aussie would say......


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Sep 21, 2012, 5:42 AM
Post #39 of 46 (894 views)
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     Re: [erdnarob] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Quote:

Are you sure of that when you say the high pressure is located on the last 1/3rd of the canopy at the tail.

Positive of it.
Simple physics applies here.

Quote:

Why then Performance Designs asks us riggers to perform fabric tensile test on the tail (3 sec. 3 locations and 30 pounds away from any seam or edge) ?????.

....Probably because the high pressure zone is going to be the first area to blow out if the fabric is weak.

Quote:

When a canopy inflates, the highest force is located on the canopy first third (the nose and a couple of feet behind) so is the pressure. If a line breaks, this is very often a A line where to force is the most intense.

You are confusing canopy pressurization with canopy load.

... Two very separate items!

MEL


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 21, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #40 of 46 (836 views)
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     Re: [masterrigger1] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

I understand that at inflation, the air rush inside the cells and is blocked at the tail seam which is maybe why you say that this area is submitted to high pressure. But what is the main cause of tear in the fabric at inflation...pressure or force (load) ? From my point of view, since the tail is down (on brakes) at opening, the first part of the canopy near the nose (outside and inside) is behaving as a round parachute creating at this moment a very high pressure on that area and load as well. What do you think about this explanation ? On the other hand, I always thought that PD were asking us to test the fabric near the tail because it is the less critical area. I would rather have a hole in the fabric near the tail than near the nose !!! Thank you for your interest...I am going to do some researchWink


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Sep 21, 2012, 7:01 PM
Post #41 of 46 (789 views)
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     Re: [erdnarob] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Quote:
understand that at inflation, the air rush inside the cells and is blocked at the tail seam which is maybe why you say that this area is submitted to high pressure.

It is not maybe why i think that. It is exactly why I know that!


Quote:
But what is the main cause of tear in the fabric at inflation...pressure or force (load)

It depends on a lot of different things.
One of which could be if the fabric was damaged or burned beforehand or during the same deployment.

Line burn is the number one cause of "blowouts". JFYI.

A distant second is weak fabric from age issues.

Quote:
From my point of view, since the tail is down (on brakes) at opening, the first part of the canopy near the nose (outside and inside) is behaving as a round parachute creating at this moment a very high pressure on that area and load as well. What do you think about this explanation ?

The next tine that you remove some lines off of a canopy please note that the center "C" lines will probably be the hardest to remove from the line attachments.

Your theory is skewed.

Quote:
On the other hand, I always thought that PD were asking us to test the fabric near the tail because it is the less critical area.
Quote:

Negative.
I would rather have a hole in the fabric near the tail than near the nose !!!
Quote:

You would be the first to want that I think.
Thank you for your interest...I am going to do some research
Quote:

Be sure to let us know your findings!


MEL


DougH  (D License)

Sep 23, 2012, 4:51 AM
Post #42 of 46 (691 views)
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     Re: [masterrigger1] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Love the mudslinging. Keep it classy.Crazy


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 23, 2012, 7:04 AM
Post #43 of 46 (671 views)
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     Re: [everybody] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

All this talk...yakety-yakety-yak.

Simplicity itself:
200 mph duct tape and a line stretcher.

Problem solved.
*sheesh*


mark  (D 6108)

Sep 23, 2012, 8:41 AM
Post #44 of 46 (653 views)
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     Re: [masterrigger1] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

MEL -

How could I find out the amount of internal pressure created inside the tail during inflation, and how that compares with the internal pressure in the rest of the canopy?

What is the source for the fact that line burn is the #1 cause of blowouts?

Do you think the tightness of the center "C" line larksheads is a result more of forces during internal pressurization than because of, say, lower-surface inflation earlier in the process?

If the "C" lines take more force, then is it a myth that the lines most likely to break during deployment are the center "A" lines? Should Precision be switching to continuous "C" and "D" center lines instead of just continuous "A" and "B" lines on their reserves?

Thanks,
Mark


gilead1  (D 26)

Sep 23, 2012, 3:57 PM
Post #45 of 46 (613 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In Response to: RIGGER
The post is: Would you grounded this h/c ???
------------------------------------------------------

The rigger that made this mistake (closing loop not through the cutter) went through retraining after this incident, then decided to quit rigging. So the problem was address and handled.

The jumper wanted an inexpensive rig, which is what he received. As far as the equipment was concerned, it was completely airworthy.

The rig owner was not allowed to jump this rig in Israel. I ended up refunding the owner his $ for the H&C, reserve and Vigil AAD (because RIGGER would not allow Vigils on his DZ). I provided him with another H&C and sold him a PD reserve and CYPRES at cost to help him out, so he could jump in Israel.

Trying to justify your BS by diverting attention to a what - 4 or 6 year old incident is lame. But it may work for the uninformed. Good luck.

Rey,
I think you can stop now,
You said already more than enough!!! (or should I say "not enough"... details on the original post)

I know RIGGER since 1987, from my military service as a jump muster and from 1993 we are working at the same DZ, here are some facts:

- He is the most strict and honest person I ever knew.

- All he wrote about his costumer service is 100% true and there is much more.

- Yes, he is old fashioned, from the days when being honest, fair, professional, a real friend and polite were considered to be good.

- Yes, he will ground equipment that other riggers will not, BUT he will do it only for the sake of safty!!! never for his one profit, and will always choose the safe side.


On the other hand - You mr. Rey,
I know you only from the original post....
and I didn't decide what is worst:

- Throwing mud on a colleague by posting half-truths,
OR
- Not being able to see all the things RIGGER did...

You can guess who will do my next I&R :)

Be safe
Gilead

P.S
4-6 years ago RIGGER didn't post a nasty and offending post on D.Z.com.... Blush
Or may be you are just looking for revenge??? Mad
Hey - after 4-6 years this is all you got..... you must be kidding TongueTongueTongue

Cheers


(This post was edited by gilead1 on Sep 23, 2012, 4:00 PM)


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Sep 23, 2012, 6:08 PM
Post #46 of 46 (587 views)
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     Re: [DougH] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Quote:
Love the mudslinging. Keep it classy.
No one is slinging mud there Captain!

MEL


(This post was edited by masterrigger1 on Sep 23, 2012, 6:11 PM)


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