Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Tandem double mal

 


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 5:42 PM
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Tandem double mal Can't Post

have video in a few


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:24 PM
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

attachement is too large...
working on it..


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:51 PM
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

link
http://youtu.be/XaOvkB8pXng

Would appreciate if someone knows how to direct this link,,thx


(This post was edited by oozzee on Aug 31, 2012, 6:52 PM)


Divalent  (C 40494)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:03 PM
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
link
http://youtu.be/XaOvkB8pXng
Would appreciate if someone knows how to direct this link,,thx

clicky


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:49 PM
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Re: [Divalent] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

The main was a Precision 365...rarely gave a good opening although this was the worst tandem line twists I've ever had.
Sigma reserve...reserve prob is debatable..


yoink

Aug 31, 2012, 8:16 PM
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

*Disclaimer - I'm not a tandem instructor and know zero about tandems...

If I started to get linetwists on my sport canopy I would have both hands on the risers at least trying to do something about it - either pulling the risers closer together at the bottom, or spreading them at the top to try and mitigate the extent of the twists.

Filming the deployment with a handcam seems to prevent any action being taken other than to sit there and watch it spin up as one hand is busy...


Is it impossible to do anything about tandem linetwists as they're forming?


Other than that - could you describe the mal on the reserve? It looked kinda like the slider got hung up on something?



Still - jumped. Landed. Good job! WinkLaugh


(This post was edited by yoink on Aug 31, 2012, 8:19 PM)


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 8:27 PM
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Re: [yoink] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Not much you can do while the canopy is twisting up like that..
Be careful you dont get your hands caught and to keep stable so you dont start oscillating...
canopy was flying fast and losing altitude pretty quickly..
have had these start spinning before..
Opted for safe,stable cutaway...
Strange reserve opening,,,skyhook,,no opening "power' to force slider down,,,hung in steering line cascades..


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Aug 31, 2012, 11:29 PM
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

eee...
can't comment much on it but hopefully you guys got out alright! Couldn't have been pleasant for the client.


xcelskydiving

Sep 1, 2012, 9:00 AM
Post #9 of 57 (6787 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
eee...
can't comment much on it but hopefully you guys got out alright! Couldn't have been pleasant for the client.
__________________________________________________

With line twists such as the ones depicted on the video, it is pretty much impossible to seperate the risers as you were trained to do on your sport rig.
I have had numerous situations such as these and have had my student assist by swinging there legs with mine in an effort to create momentum and begin unwinding...stay altitude aware...decision altitude is 3000', this is why we open up at 5500', to give us time to work out these problems.
The reserve opening is very common, these canopiesVR360 are packed in a stall configuration, the canopy will buck and oscilate until you clear the toggles...a little heart wrenching the first time you have one, but normal...
The handicam was clearly not a topic of discussion, and in no way hindered or added to the situation at hand....


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Sep 1, 2012, 9:38 AM
Post #10 of 57 (6772 views)
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Re: [yoink] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it impossible to do anything about tandem linetwists as they're forming?

IMO the only difference between solo line twists and tandem line twists is that its much harder to kick out of tandem line twists since you have another person hanging off of you.

Personally I never even try to kick out of a line twist, I use the method described in this thread. Granted I've never had as massive line twists on a tandem as on the video linked in this thread, however I've had smaller (one full rotation) and that method works just as well on a tandem as it does on a solo jump. And on a tandem its much easier since, once you get the line twists twisted down from the lines onto the risers, they will untwists on their own after that. You don't need to anything with your legs.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Sep 2, 2012, 1:13 AM
Post #11 of 57 (6654 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

I know of two people still living who have lived through real-life double malfunctions: myself and Eric Butts. Both of ours were with tandem rigs. On mine, I got my reserve mostly inflated at around 1000 feet with the main entangled all through the lines and around my body. Eric had a line-over on his reserve in Hawaii.

It is not fun

Chuck


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Sep 2, 2012, 6:56 AM
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Re: [yoink] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

What is more important? Using both hands to try to clear problems or using one hand to deal with a problem while the other hand with the camera documents potential disaster?

When safety may be compromised, the video should be over.


oozzee  (D License)

Sep 2, 2012, 8:20 PM
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Re: [VideoFly] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

MMMmmm...
I'm no expert,,,
Have only 12,000 skydives,,
...7000 tandems......
When faced with a line twist like that be 'VERY' careful of your next move...

That was a "no-win"situation....Sometimes you need to accept the reality..
The fact that i continued to video is irrelevant..the camera was on anyways and was not my primary concern..
The malfunction was my primary concern,,
Altitude pre-determined the cutaway..
If you ever have severe line twists like that on a tandem or your sport rig treat it with kidgloves,,You might turn a safe,stable cutaway into wild spinning situation..
The man in the seat,makes the call...


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 3, 2012, 4:36 AM
Post #14 of 57 (6479 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

To lessen the time to individually analyze the video, can you explain what was happening to the reserve in the video?

Some sort of bucking. So was it stalling? I know the VR 360 reserves do open on the edge of stall. It was unusual though that things weren't symmetrical, that the tandem pair were swinging left and right, almost to the point of line twist. Was that self induced on the toggles, or was that from going in and out of stalls? I don't know, but that seems unusual, as normally I thought such stalls on opening are pretty symmetrical with no twisting.

I suppose the stalling cycle was encouraged by the manner of cutaway: A very slow speed situation from a fully open canopy, with airflow from behind due to flying backwards with line twists.

(We don't fine tune our reserve brake settings for the type of jump expected, unlike say the DBS in BASE...)

All that probably helped get the reserve into the stall-unstall cycle, without it having a good chance to get some forward flying speed. If the canopy opens without quite stalling, then it can be fine, but if it rocks at all, it can get into a self-sustaining cycle of stalls. (I personally barely experienced rocking on my one Sigma chop, but I once had a Parafoil that exhibited that type of behaviour on opening.)

A friend on a Sigma recently had a cutaway from a mal, and on the reserve got the stalling cycle, AND some line twists. Now that combination was less than fun! - but he managed to untwist.


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Sep 3, 2012, 6:35 AM
Post #15 of 57 (6434 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Good job man. I've had line twists that bad, but never had them that wouldn't unwind like that. I quit doing tandems this season after I did my 1000th tandem and don't miss it. I never had to chop and had no injuries, so I consider that a clean carreer. Nno better time to get out. Good luck.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Sep 3, 2012, 12:32 PM
Post #16 of 57 (6348 views)
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Re: [Tink1717] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Good job man. I've had line twists that bad, but never had them that wouldn't unwind like that. I quit doing tandems this season after I did my 1000th tandem and don't miss it. I never had to chop and had no injuries, so I consider that a clean carreer. Nno better time to get out. Good luck.

1,000 tandems and no chops?
Unimpressed
Please buy my next lottery ticket.


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Sep 3, 2012, 1:17 PM
Post #17 of 57 (6333 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile I'd do that, but you should know that it hasn't worked for me yet.... Wink


Divalent  (C 40494)

Sep 3, 2012, 3:10 PM
Post #18 of 57 (6308 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1,000 tandems and no chops?
Unimpressed
Please buy my next lottery ticket.

Although I don't mean to diminish Tink's achievement, is that so unusual? What is the industry average for chops?

A general figure I hear bandied about is one cutaway per ~700 jumps on average. If tandem rigs are similar and they are random, you'd expect almost 25% of TI's to make to 1000 jumps without one. (It drops to about 14% if the rate is 1 in 500; or about one out of about every 7 TIs would achieve that distinction).


kflying  (D 14045)

Sep 3, 2012, 9:14 PM
Post #19 of 57 (6255 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
MMMmmm...
I'm no expert,,,
Have only 12,000 skydives,,
...7000 tandems......
When faced with a line twist like that be 'VERY' careful of your next move...

That was a "no-win"situation....Sometimes you need to accept the reality..
The fact that i continued to video is irrelevant..the camera was on anyways and was not my primary concern..
The malfunction was my primary concern,,
Altitude pre-determined the cutaway..
If you ever have severe line twists like that on a tandem or your sport rig treat it with kidgloves,,You might turn a safe,stable cutaway into wild spinning situation..
The man in the seat,makes the call...
I am in NO way an expert - only 2600 jumps/1200 tandems/4 tandem chops - to this newbie, you did it right! (And yes, I am ruining the chop average - all tension knots years ago before the highly improved gear!)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 3, 2012, 10:53 PM
Post #20 of 57 (6237 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the video.

I jump Sigmas. One day I had line twists similar to yours that I couldn't untwist. I would start to untwist, get 90 degrees and turn back towards the rear again. Shit, gonna have to chop. Crazy

Then I realized that the passenger's legs were sticking out like a weather vane. We'd get sideways and the wind from our canopy's forward speed would push us around backwards. I told him to tuck his legs back between mine. From there we were able to untwist normally. Cool

I hope this experience of mine may be useful to others in future line twist situations.


freeflymat  (E 2443)

Sep 4, 2012, 2:21 AM
Post #21 of 57 (6222 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Second that,
jump sigmas with 330's and the top tip from my examiner I still use to this day is to get the student to basically cross their arms and arch. TM to do like wise besides crossing arms no input just let it unwind, has worked for me several times. Obviously this doesn't suit all and every occasion, but with a square canopy above me and over a 1000 tandems have never had to kick out of a tandem line twist yet.
"YET"


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 4, 2012, 5:20 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then I realized that the passenger's legs were sticking out like a weather vane.

Indeed I think body position is why even for solo jumps, when someone says "I was line twisted and spinning!", they so often add "on my back". A de-arched sitting position is 'unstable' in the freefall sense of not being stable belly to the wind. Arching and sticking limbs out to one side can help to start untwisting.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Sep 4, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #23 of 57 (6136 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for the video.

I jump Sigmas. One day I had line twists similar to yours that I couldn't untwist. I would start to untwist, get 90 degrees and turn back towards the rear again. Shit, gonna have to chop. Crazy

Then I realized that the passenger's legs were sticking out like a weather vane. We'd get sideways and the wind from our canopy's forward speed would push us around backwards. I told him to tuck his legs back between mine. From there we were able to untwist normally. Cool

I hope this experience of mine may be useful to others in future line twist situations.

Yes! I had the same experience on an Icarus 330. Thought I was gonna have to chop too but then realized the same thing. Since it opens it full flight we were facing backwards because of our wind vaning knees. As we tried to kick out we would get 90 degrees and the wind just pushed us back to the starting point. I've learned the "stand up" technique where I ask the student to stand up like they are doing a toothpick jump into a pool. Sure enough, we began spinning out of the twists immediately!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 4, 2012, 8:41 AM
Post #24 of 57 (6120 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad to see many of us are figuring out those line twists. Isn't it weird to have such an "Ah Ha!"moment under a line twisted canopy with 200 pounds of person on the front?LaughLaugh

I've tried to spread the word on my experiences with this, but haven't been very successful. Maybe all of us in this forum talking about it will help.Smile


BMFin

Sep 4, 2012, 6:21 PM
Post #25 of 57 (5974 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

The TI handled it like a pro.

May I ask why this is called a double mal ? To me it looked like the reserve only had some twists, but cleared it self.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Sep 4, 2012, 6:56 PM
Post #26 of 57 (2765 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
May I ask why this is called a double mal ?

Because "Alice" is already taken.


aulanov

Sep 4, 2012, 7:23 PM
Post #27 of 57 (2756 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Did anybody else notice how awesome was the passenger's facial expression before opening? (0:02-0:05 in the video)


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 4, 2012, 8:35 PM
Post #28 of 57 (2743 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Good job man. I've had line twists that bad, but never had them that wouldn't unwind like that. I quit doing tandems this season after I did my 1000th tandem and don't miss it. I never had to chop and had no injuries, so I consider that a clean carreer. Nno better time to get out. Good luck.

1,000 tandems and no chops?
Unimpressed
Please buy my next lottery ticket.

Not all that odd. 2400 Tandems before my first tandem chop.


skygypsie  (B License)

Sep 5, 2012, 8:01 AM
Post #29 of 57 (2681 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a DZ Staff Packer w/ over 10,000 tandem packs Strong, Vector-Sigmas.
My husband who is a TI with 1500 tandems, currently jumping Sigmas, has had the similar situations with line twists, chops & reserve openings that are less than comfortable, such as this.
Unfortunately, some packers just don't get the signifcance of clearing lines & need for articulation in packing.
I understand student body positioning on opening can play a roll on opening circumstances, but far too many times it is a result of lazy, inadequate packing.
Could I have your permission to post this video on my fb business & personal site ?
Hopefully, packers may get the idea: what you put into a pack, comes out in a pack !!!
So glad you worked it out Cool
btw:
I am definitely proud to say I only have one mal pack job resulting in cutaway within 1st week of packing 6+ years ago, because I take my job very seriously.


oozzee  (D License)

Sep 5, 2012, 1:50 PM
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Re: [aulanov] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

The student was an airforce pilot....i made him completely aware of what was happening,,,
His maintaining a good body position after the chop made my job easier...Thanks bro..!


crashtested  (D License)

Oct 9, 2012, 6:14 PM
Post #31 of 57 (2458 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for the video.

I jump Sigmas. One day I had line twists similar to yours that I couldn't untwist. I would start to untwist, get 90 degrees and turn back towards the rear again. Shit, gonna have to chop. Crazy

Then I realized that the passenger's legs were sticking out like a weather vane. We'd get sideways and the wind from our canopy's forward speed would push us around backwards. I told him to tuck his legs back between mine. From there we were able to untwist normally. Cool

I hope this experience of mine may be useful to others in future line twist situations.

2nd'ed

Also try bunching risers together, rather than pulling apart... I've also chopped something similar to that, so goes to show it does not always work


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 9, 2012, 9:39 PM
Post #32 of 57 (2403 views)
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Re: [skygypsie] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
need for articulation in packing.
Not sure what that is. Please enlighten. Smile


skygypsie  (B License)

Oct 11, 2012, 4:53 AM
Post #33 of 57 (2321 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

One of many definitions of articulation :
Articulation, in art and architecture, is a method of styling the joints in the formal elements of architectural design. Through degrees of articulation, each part is united with the whole work by means of a joint in such a way that the joined parts are put together in styles ranging from exceptionally distinct jointing to the opposite of high articulationŚfluidity and continuity of joining. In highly articulated works, each part is defined precisely and stands out clearly. The articulation reveals how the parts fit into the whole by emphasizing each part separately...
-----------------------------------------------------------
That's all I mean..understanding the parts ( rig) & realization of potential consequences of sloppy packing by uneducated, unknowing or lazy packers !
"What goes into a pack, comes out in the opening "...too often I've heard, "I don't care. I'm not jumping it " !
Afterall, packing a tandem rig correctly is a form of art & architecture...is it not ? Wink


(This post was edited by skygypsie on Oct 11, 2012, 5:02 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 11, 2012, 11:39 AM
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Re: [skygypsie] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, gotcha, neatness counts. Cool

I'm a more mechanical person, not artistic like some. For me it's "Do it right so it comes out right." I think we would work well together. Smile


skygypsie  (B License)

Oct 12, 2012, 2:02 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileCoolWink


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Oct 12, 2012, 5:29 PM
Post #36 of 57 (2140 views)
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Re: [skygypsie] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

I have about 90 tandems, all on Sigma.
I had a few line twist (since I am in DZ.com I will say I had line twist in two jumps).
In one of the jumps was only one revolution so it came out on its own.
On another one, I had about four revolutions. At the beginning I tried to untwisted myself, and I wasn't going anywhere, like many of you mention I went 90 degree one way and then go back again to the same spot I was before, so I made the student to look up, and I said, "well we have some nice line twist, not a big deal we will need to kick at the same time to clear them". He start kicking the wrong direction and then I said "kick the other way" with in 10 seconds we where out of the line twist and still above 4000ft.

Good job making it to the ground safely.

I apologize in advance for my bad grammar.


OneJumpWally  (A License)

Oct 12, 2012, 6:47 PM
Post #37 of 57 (2124 views)
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Re: [Pablo.Moreno] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

LMAO Aulanov, I was rolling when I watched that. If all else failed they could have used the students upper lip to slow the descent haha.


b-radjumper  (D 20910)

Oct 28, 2012, 2:31 PM
Post #38 of 57 (1904 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the reason ozzy brad no longer works for Sin City Skydiving. let me tell you why, when you have line twist on your main parachute you are supposed to spread the risers with both hands and kick your feet to start to untwist, this is tought in every FJC that line twist is not a mal it is fixable. If you watch the video brad never tried to untwist the lines with his hands he just video'd it before he went to the reserve, you owe it to the passenger on front of you to try every option before you go to the reserve. lets face it reserves can mal also it is just another parachute. Ozzy Brad did not give 100% on this skydive he gave up and went right to the reserve, I've had worse Tandem reserve opennings and i didn't call them double mals. now that being said (IF) and i say IF the reserve did mal, Ozzy Brad would have been praying to GOD that he would have tried to fix that main. I could not let OZZY Brad take any more of my customers on tandem skydives because of this that is why he doesn't work here anymore and never will again. When you make the decision to become a tandem instructor you have to Give it 100%, 100% of the time, no matter if it is jump 1 or jump 16,957 That person on front of you deserve that!!! Good Luck to you Ozzy Brad and Blue skies...Angelic


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 28, 2012, 4:02 PM
Post #39 of 57 (1882 views)
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Re: [b-radjumper] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is the reason ozzy brad no longer works for Sin City Skydiving. let me tell you why, when you have line twist on your main parachute you are supposed to spread the risers with both hands and kick your feet to start to untwist, this is taught in every FJC that line twist is not a mal it is fixable. If you watch the video brad never tried to untwist the lines with his hands he just video'd it before he went to the reserve, you owe it to the passenger on front of you to try every option before you go to the reserve. lets face it reserves can mal also it is just another parachute. Ozzy Brad did not give 100% on this skydive he gave up and went right to the reserve, I've had worse Tandem reserve opennings and i didn't call them double mals. now that being said (IF) and i say IF the reserve did mal, Ozzy Brad would have been praying to GOD that he would have tried to fix that main. I could not let OZZY Brad take any more of my customers on tandem skydives because of this that is why he doesn't work here anymore and never will again. When you make the decision to become a tandem instructor you have to Give it 100%, 100% of the time, no matter if it is jump 1 or jump 16,957 That person on front of you deserve that!!! Good Luck to you Ozzy Brad and Blue skies...Angelic


Bet he's having 2nd thoughts about posting THAT video...Monkey


jumpwally  (D License)

Oct 30, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #40 of 57 (1757 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry..Pro's don't wear hand cams....


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Oct 30, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #41 of 57 (1730 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry..Pro's don't wear hand cams....
What stupid comment. The overwhelming number of pros around the world wear hand cams at least some of the time whether they like it or not. It is a part of the job, whining video flyers not withstanding.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Oct 30, 2012, 2:22 PM
Post #42 of 57 (1695 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

When I look at that video, several things come to mind. One why are you continuing to film when you have line twist? Did you try any other way of untwisting the canopy other than kicking and having the student kick. Canopies that open in full flight are very difficult to get out of but I know of 3 methods to untwist and I will/ have tried all 3 and have had success with them. First is Kick, second is bring the line twist down into the risers by twisting them together(once down in the risers you just generally unspin like a top). Last one probably would not work in your situation but if you are able to and pull the "right" toggle sometimes the canopy will just unspin above you. I have had that exact kind of openning on the same canopy with handicam. First shut the camera off or just get to work fixing the problem and get my hands on the risers. Hell I have even used combos of twisting it into the risers and kicking too.


Dokeman  (D License)

Oct 30, 2012, 4:07 PM
Post #43 of 57 (1679 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

what about the rigger or the main packer? are they still employed? Dosen't look like they gave 100% either. just saying...


b-radjumper  (D 20910)

Oct 30, 2012, 4:25 PM
Post #44 of 57 (1670 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

nothing wrong with the rigging or packing Dokeman, you can see in the video that that main opennend as nice as a 365 can and was flying nice and strait Read the Captains comments he is correct also read the warning label on any parachute even a properly packed main/reserve can mal, but this was not a mal, it was the operator who faled to do his job.


(This post was edited by b-radjumper on Oct 30, 2012, 4:41 PM)


Dokeman  (D License)

Oct 30, 2012, 6:15 PM
Post #45 of 57 (1638 views)
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Re: [b-radjumper] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

so if there was no issue, who did the packing? just wondering..??


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Oct 30, 2012, 10:31 PM
Post #46 of 57 (1594 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry..Pro's don't wear hand cams....

Pardon me?


D8055  (D 8055)

Oct 31, 2012, 12:51 AM
Post #47 of 57 (1581 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told during my firsdt jump course... back in 1978.... "what you do to a parachute to pack it, it has to undo to open". Been a part of my being ever since... So, ya neatness, and everything else counts!


D8055  (D 8055)

Oct 31, 2012, 1:07 AM
Post #48 of 57 (1577 views)
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Re: [Dokeman] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

I was n't around for the packing of the main or the deployment. But I make a point to follow up on any reserve rides I packed. All I can saty is I'm tired of hearing about a double malfunction that didn't exist.
The reserve opened normally! Several reports from the ground stated that it looked normal, maybe a little slow. besides the fact that these reserves are packed with a very deep brake setting and will begin all sorts of movement if not acted on on swiftly... This particular instructor cut away fro a functioning parachute without an attempt to clear line twists. There was no rapid decent. He fell away in dead air and tried deploying a very large parachute from a "zero" airspeed... you bet its going to open slow! He was also probably "stnding/sitting up" when he fell away... the likely bounce off his head a couple of times! Further more, the deployment was not even as slow as made out to be. He did not acccelerate enough, or fall far enough, to even fire the Vigil.
All he is doing is MSUing to take the heat off his failures. What he is doing in the mean time is making others jumping my reserve packs feel uncomfortable. Its time to stop the bull$!@*.


jumpwally  (D License)

Oct 31, 2012, 6:31 AM
Post #49 of 57 (1548 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't get your panties in a bunch,,i have never seen a good hand video i liked,,,,its a weird look,,its got its place,,just like a ankle cam or even a dick cam,,,but your not going to catch the overall joy and experience that a video guy can go,,,no comparison at all in my book. I wouldn't pay a penny for it. Plus the tangle hazard isn't worth it if you've got someone's life in your hands,,,pick a job,,,TI or Video guy...Tongue


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #50 of 57 (1524 views)
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Re: [D8055] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All he is doing is MSUing to take the heat off his failures. What he is doing in the mean time is making others jumping my reserve packs feel uncomfortable. Its time to stop the bull$!@*.
Amen, Brother! Smile


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 31, 2012, 7:09 PM
Post #51 of 57 (1017 views)
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Re: [D8055] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

@D8055:

Since you're the rigger in this case, I can see you'd be a bit pissed at the thread title!

"Zero" airspeed? Hell, flying backwards with line twists, and using a skyhook, he had that reserve deploying well infront of him with a nice little tailwind. No wonder the Sigma tandem reserve rocked.

(The video shows him basically vertical during the deployment, but he can't do much about that when using an RSL/Skyhook from stable flight. The bag slides past the back of his helmet since he has arched. The student's knees are up during the chop. Chopping while flying backwards is an interesting situation, when thinking about standard rules on arching and stability, plus situations where the reserve opening time and method varies between Skyhook, RSL only, or manual reserve activation...)


D8055  (D 8055)

Oct 31, 2012, 11:33 PM
Post #52 of 57 (1002 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

When I refer to "zero Airspeed" I'm talking about vertical. The kind that increases opening speed. Chopping from a good canopy, even with line twists, is harder to deploy than helo or balllon jumps... and with the Skyhook, there iss deffinately no delay to help out! I'm merely pointing out that such openings tend take longer than normal and may give one the sense that something was not functioning properly. Thats why I checked several reports from the ground, which gave no indication that the opening was anything but normal... if there is such a critter!


b-radjumper  (D 20910)

Nov 5, 2012, 8:18 AM
Post #53 of 57 (897 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you mike there was no double mal, man there wasn't even a main mal, ozzy brad should have done his job with the main butt didn't. Mike your reseve openned fine, OZZY Brad is WRONG. You are still going to pack my reserves regaurdles of what was said here you are a great rigger" I'll jump you Reserves any day" with no worries


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Dec 4, 2012, 9:04 AM
Post #54 of 57 (704 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

   This is exactly why I don't like to use those Icarus/Precision type canopies. They open in full fight with no brakes on. It's very difficult to get rid of line twists on a canopy in this flight mode. Line twists like this are no problem to fix on a canopy with deployment brakes.


Ken


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Dec 4, 2012, 11:42 AM
Post #55 of 57 (658 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's very difficult to get rid of line twists on a canopy in this flight mode. Line twists like this are no problem to fix on a canopy with deployment brakes.

I wouldn't say very difficult, just a different technique. Just stand up straight.

The last time I had line twists I asked the student to stand up and did our handcam post-freefall interview while we untwisted.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Dec 4, 2012, 9:39 PM
Post #56 of 57 (560 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm, like to see how that is supposed to really work. I have never chopped line twist yet, but I have come down very tired from fighting my way out of them.
So since you seem to think you have some magic technique please explain how it is. Suppose to work. So you justt stand straight up and the canopy magicaly fixes itself. In my experiience the canopy stays in ine twist pointing down wind, but hey I only have 2700 tandems so what the hell do I. Know


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Dec 4, 2012, 9:45 PM)


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Dec 5, 2012, 1:51 PM
Post #57 of 57 (487 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hmmm, like to see how that is supposed to really work. I have never chopped line twist yet, but I have come down very tired from fighting my way out of them.
So since you seem to think you have some magic technique please explain how it is. Suppose to work. So you justt stand straight up and the canopy magicaly fixes itself. In my experiience the canopy stays in ine twist pointing down wind, but hey I only have 2700 tandems so what the hell do I. Know

"I jump Sigmas. One day I had line twists similar to yours that I couldn't untwist. I would start to untwist, get 90 degrees and turn back towards the rear again. Shit, gonna have to chop.

Then I realized that the passenger's legs were sticking out like a weather vane. We'd get sideways and the wind from our canopy's forward speed would push us around backwards. I told him to tuck his legs back between mine. From there we were able to untwist normally.

I hope this experience of mine may be useful to others in future line twist situations."

JohnMitchell


"Second that,
jump sigmas with 330's and the top tip from my examiner I still use to this day is to get the student to basically cross their arms and arch. TM to do like wise besides crossing arms no input just let it unwind, has worked for me several times. Obviously this doesn't suit all and every occasion, but with a square canopy above me and over a 1000 tandems have never had to kick out of a tandem line twist yet."

freeflymat


"Yes! I had the same experience on an Icarus 330. Thought I was gonna have to chop too but then realized the same thing. Since it opens it full flight we were facing backwards because of our wind vaning knees. As we tried to kick out we would get 90 degrees and the wind just pushed us back to the starting point. I've learned the "stand up" technique where I ask the student to stand up like they are doing a toothpick jump into a pool. Sure enough, we began spinning out of the twists immediately!"

Me


"Thanks for the replies. I'm glad to see many of us are figuring out those line twists. Isn't it weird to have such an "Ah Ha!"moment under a line twisted canopy with 200 pounds of person on the front?

I've tried to spread the word on my experiences with this, but haven't been very successful. Maybe all of us in this forum talking about it will help."

JohnMitchell



Did you read the rest of the thread? Doesn't sound that magical does it? Did you miss the part where we were talking about tandem canopies that open in full flight? I'm sorry your experience differs from the rest of us, but go ahead and stay with your obviously superior technique. I'll enjoy not being stuck in line twists.



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