Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump???

 

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5.samadhi

Aug 31, 2012, 9:54 AM
Post #26 of 45 (1025 views)
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Re: [DougH] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

cutting through your layers of negativity and sarcasm is hard man...hard to even have a discussion with you man Unsure

oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy


Feeblemind  (D 28621)

Aug 31, 2012, 1:51 PM
Post #27 of 45 (966 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like you need to find some new instructors! I'm surprised they passed you onto level 2 since you didn't really do anything. I know you tried but you didn't pull, do practice pulls or actually check your altitude.

Did you even read his post? Sounds like he was doing everything he was trained to do with the instructors above him yanking him around and his fall rate complicated issues.

But Holy Crist, the turbulence was unbelievable. I was trying to do my count, but my body was being blasted and trying to twist from side to side. It was like someone was trying to flip me over on both sides and shaking the hell out of me. I was trying to keep the body position I was taught, but my arms were flailing uncontrollably and I was shaking so much I couldn't even focus on the sky.

I tried to keep my focus on my count to 4,000 and COA look at my altimeter for the prescribed check, but my arm was still shaking and flailing so much I couldn't see the altimeter to get the reading. I tried to check my heading and the horizon, but I still couldn't focus on the sky or anything else when I looked ahead.

Check for instructorsI decided I would just go to the next item in my maneuvers, which was to check right and left with my instructors. I look to my right to check in with my first instructor. HE WAS NO WHERE IN SIGHT!

Absolutely correctI remembered in training they said if you are separated from your instructors, just pull your chute.

I needed to see about the second instructor first. I look to my left. HE WASN'T THERE EITHER! ---But before I try to pull my chute,Aware of his surroundings, may have prevented a double fatal I saw out of the corner of my eye that The second instructor was still with me, but he was not next to me, but kind of behind and above me. I couldn't pull my parachute then or it would deploy into him.

Since The instructor was still with me and not telling me otherwise I thought maybe I should try to continue with my planned practice touches of the ripcord. The violent shaking had not gotten any better and I still had no idea what my altitude was, but I tried to move my right arm to make the first practice touch. I couldn't get my arm to move past my shoulder for the shaking and twisting I was being thrown around with.

I was thinking this is not good. I had to see what my altitude was...

BOOOOM!

I will not speak ill of instructors here, as an AFF-I I too have made errors in judging a students fall rate, I learned from those jumps, and I am sure the instructors on this jump did as well.

Good luck with your progrssion, I am a large model also, so if I can assist you in your aff with discussion please drop me a PM.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 31, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #28 of 45 (938 views)
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Re: [Feeblemind] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Too many instructors pass people who did not complete the dive flow. If a student doesn't pull on time they fail. period. If the instructors sucked and couldn't do thier job they should not accept any money for the jump and give it back to the student.
Just because an instructor screwed up that does not give the student an automatic pass.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 1, 2012, 7:26 AM
Post #29 of 45 (901 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy

Here's some things you could learn:

- Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary...and then you ask yourself a question....Why are my belly skills and/or judgement skill so lacking that I needed the FF on that AFF jump?

- It's always best to refrain from giving advice and commenting on things you know little to nothing about.

- Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 1, 2012, 7:30 AM
Post #30 of 45 (900 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If a student doesn't pull on time they fail. period.

What does "on time" mean to you?

In reply to:
If the instructors sucked and couldn't do thier job they should not accept any money for the jump and give it back to the student.
I would agree with this.

In reply to:
Just because an instructor screwed up that does not give the student an automatic pass.
True enough...not the case here.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 1, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #31 of 45 (866 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've sitfly/backflyed with people on their belly before so its possible to match all sorts of orientations with different speeds.

You can do this docked on someone with zero tension on the grip?

You can do this docked w/ zero tension, and be able to make an effective scan of the students body position?

You can do this docked w/ zero tension, able to make an effective scan, and use you free hand to give corrective hand signals, assist the student, and pull for them if neccesary?

There's way more to freefall instruction than just being able to be 'near' the student. Unless you can guarantee that at a minimum you can take grips and deploy for the student while flying a given body position, you have no business flying that way with a student. 'Close' or 'almost' is not acceptable.

For the record, there are very few AFFIs with the chops to fly their slot on their knees, in a sit, or on their head. Very few.


Sharksblood  (B 37851)

Sep 1, 2012, 2:17 PM
Post #32 of 45 (848 views)
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Re: [Feeblemind] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to everyone for your comments and advice. You have given me some points to follow up on and helped me set up a plan to "get back on the horse."

1. I think my impressions of my instructors are that they were very good and skilled. One had 11,000 jumps and the one who pulled my chute had 17,000 jumps. My problem and reason for questions is my own self-doubt.

2.i wil ask about a bigger suit and I am sure someone will consider the instructors wearing weights, etc. to compensate for my fall rate. (I guess I am an "Anvil", I weight 215 lbs and am 5'11" tall but the at the DZ the morning of the jump, after breakfast, and 3 coffees, with all my clothes, they weighed me at 225.

3. I am booked for my AFF level 2 tomorrow morning at 8am.

4. I am going to do training in a wind tunnel where I signed up for 8 minutes of flight time this afternoon.

I feel better knowing I did a lot right and I am ready to give this another try. I am still nervous, but I am going to ask a lot of questions, make sure I go through everything I learned last week all over again and have a kick ass jump.

Thanks.


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 1, 2012, 2:23 PM
Post #33 of 45 (844 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I weight 215 lbs and am 5'11" tall

No lightweight, but not an anvil. Your fallrate should not be so terribly fast, unless perhaps you had a really strong arch. After your windtunnel time, you will probably know that a 110% arch isn't required to be stable. Just a relaxed position rather than straining in a severe arch is a lot more comfortable anyway.

Getting your windtunnel time on video might be helpful to your instructors.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Sep 1, 2012, 2:24 PM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Sep 1, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #34 of 45 (827 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

On time is by 4000ft, or if one of the instructors dumps you out because you're not doing it. If your reserve gets dumped you and/or the instructors really screwed up.


5.samadhi

Sep 1, 2012, 5:27 PM
Post #35 of 45 (811 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy

Here's some things you could learn:

- Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary...and then you ask yourself a question....Why are my belly skills and/or judgement skill so lacking that I needed the FF on that AFF jump?

- It's always best to refrain from giving advice and commenting on things you know little to nothing about.

- Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.
so when the jump is happening going into a fast kneefly or sit to catch a student is a skill you'd use if all else fails? It doesnt matter if you beat yourself up for not wearing some lead about it later...cypres can fail better do whatever it takes...

why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Sep 1, 2012, 5:28 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 1, 2012, 5:39 PM
Post #36 of 45 (806 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy

Here's some things you could learn:

- Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary...and then you ask yourself a question....Why are my belly skills and/or judgement skill so lacking that I needed the FF on that AFF jump?

- It's always best to refrain from giving advice and commenting on things you know little to nothing about.

- Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.
so when the jump is happening going into a fast kneefly or sit to catch a student is a skill you'd use if all else fails? It doesnt matter if you beat yourself up for not wearing some lead about it later...cypres can fail better do whatever it takes...

why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?

It's best to listen to seasoned instructors and learn. You don't need an instructorrating to ask questions, but sure as heck do to dispense advice on how the jump 'should' be done.


Sharksblood  (B 37851)

Sep 1, 2012, 9:13 PM
Post #37 of 45 (782 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just got back from the wind tunnel. Thanks adagen for the advice to give this a try. I feel like I got to make all the mistakes in I would have made on my next 8 skydives in one afternoon, without the added fear and pressure of the actual skydive.

I had a great instructor at the iFly facility that I told all about my first jump issues and that I am doing the AFF 2 tomorrow and he worked with me through each successive flight to improve my arch, arms, legs and body position.

I had a video made of all my flights that I can show my instructors tomorrow and that I can use to help myself see what my issues are.

I already could see that I was arching so much I was almost folding backwards. I was also letting my arms and shoulders push back behind me.

-I learned to arch less, that I need to pull arms and shoulders forward toward my chest, to move my hands more forward, relax and unclench fist/fingers.

-To make turns I only need slight movement of hands and arms, not to pivot or twist my entire shoulder or body or it will make me flip over.

I feel much more confident and ready to take on my AFF 2 training and jump tomorrow.

I have my video and a list of questions for my instructors.

Thanks again to everyone for your words of advice and encouragement.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 2, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #38 of 45 (740 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy

Here's some things you could learn:

- Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary...and then you ask yourself a question....Why are my belly skills and/or judgement skill so lacking that I needed the FF on that AFF jump?

- It's always best to refrain from giving advice and commenting on things you know little to nothing about.

- Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.
-------------------------
In reply to:
so when the jump is happening going into a fast kneefly or sit to catch a student is a skill you'd use if all else fails? It doesnt matter if you beat yourself up for not wearing some lead about it later...cypres can fail better do whatever it takes...

What did I say?
"Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary."

In reply to:
why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?
What is common sense is dictated by your knowledge base/foundation. You're coming up short here.

It's good that you are questioning. It's bad that you are arguing and not listening when you have little knowledge base/foundation as you have demonstrated in this thread.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 2, 2012, 5:58 AM
Post #39 of 45 (737 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just got back from the wind tunnel. Thanks adagen for the advice to give this a try. I feel like I got to make all the mistakes in I would have made on my next 8 skydives in one afternoon, without the added fear and pressure of the actual skydive.
Good stuff! Ahhhh, yes...the benefits of tunnel time.

In reply to:
I already could see that I was arching so much I was almost folding backwards.
One major reason for the fast fall rate!

In reply to:
I was also letting my arms and shoulders push back behind me.
Better than below your shoulders!

In reply to:
I feel much more confident and ready to take on my AFF 2 training and jump tomorrow.
Big smile here. If YOU ain't smiling, you ain't doin' it right!


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 2, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #40 of 45 (725 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I already could see that I was arching so much I was almost folding backwards.t.

Someone solidly built... AND really flexible. That's good for surprising instructors!


In reply to:
One had 11,000 jumps and the one who pulled my chute had 17,000 jumps.

Which shows others how easy it is to criticize on the internet, how hard it is to be perfect as an instructor on every single jump.

Newbie instructors. They should be on DZ.com more and learn how to really fly. TongueTongue


Sounds like your next AFF jumps should go a lot smoother. Have fun.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Sep 2, 2012, 7:16 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Sep 2, 2012, 6:52 AM
Post #41 of 45 (719 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?

Because your sense isn't common. Shut up and jump cupcake. Sly


5.samadhi

Sep 2, 2012, 9:56 AM
Post #42 of 45 (695 views)
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Re: [DougH] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?

Because your sense isn't common. Shut up and jump cupcake. Sly
alright I like that advice Doug SlyCool


Sharksblood  (B 37851)

Sep 2, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #43 of 45 (635 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

My second jump was scheduled for this morning after the past week of apprehension, fear and wondering what the hell happened on that first jump, whether skydiving was for me or even if I could do this again.

I was feeling confident this morning after the time in the wind tunnel yesterday and hoping to get some feedback from the instructors based on my video from the wind tunnel.

I got the same two instructors as I had for my first jump and they said they wanted me to repeat the AFF level 1 even though they had passed me in the log book last week. They said they only did that in case the DZ operator might not have given me a free repeat jump, but since I did get a free jump, they thought it would be better for me to repeat level 1 than to try to move on to level 2.

They then took the time to review my video from the wind tunnel and commented that my body position and stability improved considerably from flight to flight. They felt my work in the wind tunnel would help with the fall rate. Also to help address the fall rate issue on my second jump, one instructor wore a 15 pound weight belt, the other said he would fly in a sit if he needed to and I had lost 5 pounds since last week, so I was down to a fully clothed weight of 218. They also put me in a 2X jumpsuit.

All in all I think I just felt more relaxed, confident and better prepared for this jump.

We went out at 12,500 above ground level.

This time the wind was familiar. No more than the wind tunnel. I did my count to 4,000. Did my altimeter check. Checked the horizon.

Checked with instructor on the right. Big thumbs up!

Checked with the instructor on the left. big thumbs up!

The rest of the skydive was a flawless AFF 1 dive. I was actually able to look around me and see what an absolutely incredible view and experience this was. During my leg extensions and forward motion I was having so much fun I was actually making faces and "thumbs up" to the cameraman.

This time my log book reads:

Jump#2
Date 9/2/12
Aircraft: Otter
Equip: Nav 280
Exit altitude:12,500
Skydive: AFF Level 1 Repeat
Exit: Set up and exit good
Maneuvers: COA good, 3 PCTs- good w/ assist, good on alt awareness, good on fwd movement, legs out on signal in Freefall-good, continue w/arch thru deployment, pull by self by 5,000'
Canopy control: Excellent! Min. Radio Assist
Tunnel Time Made The Difference!
Landing: PLF modified! Flare at 10-12ft.

Passed to level 2. (I was told our fall rate averaged 132 mph- down from the 154 we clocked on the first jump)

The only thing I had to deal with was after my chute deployed I looked up and the damn thing was in a line twist about 8 times. I thought I survived the skydive and now I am going to have to do a cutaway on my second jump. But I checked my altimeter and was still at over 4,000 feet so I started kicking like crazy to swing and spin and it started to untwist. In just a few seconds I was straight and steady. I checked the canopy and it was smooth sailing from there.

OH MY GOD!!! This is the the most incredible thing I have ever done in my life!

I can't wait to do it again!

I am so glad I screwed up my courage to get back in that plane and jump again. Thank you to everyone on the forum for your kind words of encouragement, advice and support. It helped me with some focus and direction to get back out there today and jump again.

I don't know yet if this will become a lifelong avocation, but already it has been a life changing experience.

Thanks a million.


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 3, 2012, 12:08 AM
Post #44 of 45 (620 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly congratulations!

Secondly I am extremely impressed with a couple of things. For someone with very few jumps you've portrayed things very clearly and accurately. You seem to have been very aware on your jumps - I wish I was half as aware as you on my early jumps.

Finally I am VERY impressed that the school gave you a free AFF rejump and the way they have handled your learning to date.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 4, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #45 of 45 (520 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For someone with very few jumps you've portrayed things very clearly and accurately. You seem to have been very aware on your jumps - I wish I was half as aware as you on my early jumps.

Finally I am VERY impressed that the school gave you a free AFF rejump and the way they have handled your learning to date.

I was thinking exactly these points, too.


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