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Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump???

 


Sharksblood  (B 37851)

Aug 30, 2012, 12:13 AM
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Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? Can't Post

I did my AFF Level 1 class and jump last Saturday and thankfully everything ended well with a nice landing, but the skydive didn't go as planned and I am still not sure I understand what happened even after the debrief with the instructors. I feel I need to get this clear in my head before I try to jump again.

I took my position in the door, right foot forward on the ledge, left foot behind it, hands on the forward door opening. I leaned out the door, Chest out, I looked right and "Check in" with My first instructor, I looked left and "Check out" with my second instructor. Rock forward "1", rock backward "2", AND JUMP!!!

I remembered "I must arch my pelvis forward and count to 'four one thousand'"as I ride out of the prop blast and settle into the stable belly down flying position.

But Holy Crist, the turbulence was unbelievable. I was trying to do my count, but my body was being blasted and trying to twist from side to side. It was like someone was trying to flip me over on both sides and shaking the hell out of me. I was trying to keep the body position I was taught, but my arms were flailing uncontrollably and I was shaking so much I couldn't even focus on the sky.

I tried to keep my focus on my count to 4,000 and look at my altimeter for the prescribed check, but my arm was still shaking and flailing so much I couldn't see the altimeter to get the reading. I tried to check my heading and the horizon, but I still couldn't focus on the sky or anything else when I looked ahead.

I decided I would just go to the next item in my maneuvers, which was to check right and left with my instructors. I look to my right to check in with my first instructor. HE WAS NO WHERE IN SIGHT!

I remembered in training they said if you are separated from your instructors, just pull your chute.

I needed to see about the second instructor first. I look to my left. HE WASN'T THERE EITHER! ---But before I try to pull my chute, I saw out of the corner of my eye that The second instructor was still with me, but he was not next to me, but kind of behind and above me. I couldn't pull my parachute then or it would deploy into him.

Since The instructor was still with me and not telling me otherwise I thought maybe I should try to continue with my planned practice touches of the ripcord. The violent shaking had not gotten any better and I still had no idea what my altitude was, but I tried to move my right arm to make the first practice touch. I couldn't get my arm to move past my shoulder for the shaking and twisting I was being thrown around with.

I was thinking this is not good. I had to see what my altitude was...

BOOOOM!

Everything suddenly stopped. I realize my parachute had deployed. I looked up and saw that the chute was open and everything looked good. I made a normal safe landing and went to find my instructors to see what happened.

I thought I must have screwed up really bad. My instructor said
"You didn't do anything wrong. We had a problem matching your fall rate. It happens sometimes where some people fall at a faster than normal rate. We weren't prepared for it and couldn't keep up with you."

"They clocked you at 153 miles per hour. You made a perfect exit, but as soon as we went out, The other instructor and I were vertical above you hanging on and trying to stay with you. We were crashing into each other as we tried to stay with you, but we couldn't keep up."

"The other instructor peeled off and I stayed with you to try to stabilize and catch up, but I still couldn't keep up, so I pulled your reserve at 6,000 feet."

When I went out I felt all the violent shaking and I thought I had bad body position so I kept trying to arch more.

The instructor said "Your body position was great. The shaking was the other instructor and Me banging into each other while we were hanging onto you trying to keep up."

I weigh 225 pounds and wondered if my fall rate had anything to do with my weight. But the instructor said "No, I have jumped with hundreds of students who weigh the same or much more than you who don't fall like that. This is just one of those things where some people just fall fast.

The instructor wrote the following in log book:

"Jump #1
Date. 8 25 12
Aircraft. Caravan
Skydive: AFF Level 1
Exit: Great Exit
Maneuvers: Jumpmasters had fall rate problems, so maneuvers could not be completed. Jumpmasters could not stay down. Reserve side pulled out @ 6000'. 150 mph fall rate
Canopy Control: Great
Get to holding area quicker.
Landing: Soft landing on target
Passed to Level 2

So now I am wondering if this explanation makes any sense.
If I have this fall rate issue, what can I, or the instructors do any different on the next jump to make sure the same thing doesn't happen? The school offered to give me the AFF 2 jump at no charge and wrote "FAST" on the card I am to present to whoever I get as the next instructor, but frankly, I am more nervous now than before the first jump.

I want to "get back on the horse" so to speak, but would like to figure some of this out first.

Any thoughts from the forum would be appreciated.


shayelk  (B License)

Aug 30, 2012, 1:35 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

falling rate isn't just about your weight, but about your drag too (how big a surface do you have, what jumpsuit you're wearing..).
on your next jump, ask the AFFI's to give you a larger jumpsuit- it will have a bigger surface and more drag to slow you down a bit.
Now that they know you fall fast, they might also match you with bigger (or more experienced) AFFI's who can fall faster, or wear some weights to match your fast fall rate.

By the way- as you go along you'll learn how to control your fall rate, so don't worry about it as a long lasting problem :)

I guess your instructors talked to you about it but if you can't get to read your alti why didn't you pull? it sound like for all you knew you could have been at 2000 ft. and just kept on with your dive flow... your AFFI's won't always be there to pull for you. The ground, on the other hand, will.

that being said- what I wrote is only food for thought- ask your instructors about it and don't take anything people are saying online as a fact- I'm a low time jumper myself, so your instructors probably have hundreds of jumps more then I do.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Aug 30, 2012, 2:05 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

What DZ was it?

I am surprised that both secondary & primary let go of you - that's bad admin to say the least...


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 30, 2012, 3:18 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like you need to find some new instructors! I'm surprised they passed you onto level 2 since you didn't really do anything. I know you tried but you didn't pull, do practice pulls or actually check your altitude.


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 30, 2012, 3:59 AM
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like you need to find some new instructors! I'm surprised they passed you onto level 2 since you didn't really do anything. I know you tried but you didn't pull, do practice pulls or actually check your altitude.

Perhaps a gratis rejump would be justified.

He also did a great exit, good arch, looked for the instructors.

To Sharksblood - How tall are you?

A really hard arch is good for students, but as you will find out later if you keep jumping, those of us well endowed with copious amounts of gravitational attraction (heavy), usually don't need or want to have a hard arch. That doesn't apply to you yet, as the arch gives you more stability, and faster fall rate, than you would have if you weren't arching so hard. Later, when stability is natural, you won't arch as much as you do as a student. But of course, everything you get from the internet should be considered wrong, just listen to your instructors.


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 30, 2012, 4:26 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow that is quite a story and it sounds like you did well.

I'm not sure where you jump?

There are a couple of people who post on this site who are very good AFF instructors. The only one I personally know is popsjumper. I would suggest that you engage with someone like him in private messages and get an opinion on how the AFF instructors performed on this jump.

One thing I'm not entirely clear on - did the reserve side instructor deploy your main or your reserve?


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 30, 2012, 4:34 AM
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Re: [sundevil777] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Sounds like you need to find some new instructors! I'm surprised they passed you onto level 2 since you didn't really do anything. I know you tried but you didn't pull, do practice pulls or actually check your altitude.

Perhaps a gratis rejump would be justified.

He also did a great exit, good arch, looked for the instructors.

To Sharksblood - How tall are you?

A really hard arch is good for students, but as you will find out later if you keep jumping, those of us well endowed with copious amounts of gravitational attraction (heavy), usually don't need or want to have a hard arch. That doesn't apply to you yet, as the arch gives you more stability, and faster fall rate, than you would have if you weren't arching so hard. Later, when stability is natural, you won't arch as much as you do as a student. But of course, everything you get from the internet should be considered wrong, just listen to your instructors.

This is a really strange one. I'm very wary of judging peoples actions over the internet. I do think that someone really trustworthy should have a chat with this guy and possibly not from the DZ. Someone reputable from this site, may be OK, otherwise a suitable safety and training person from whoever his national skydiving body is.

It could be that the dz is being really nice, but offering a free AFF jump, comes across as an admission that the instructors weren't up to the task. It seems like they did a good job on the ground schooling as he sounds like he was quite alert/aware of what the procedures were.

Without creating a witchhunt it would be useful to know which DZ the jump happened at, their reputation good or bad would help.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Aug 30, 2012, 5:12 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a technicality, but 'pulled my reserve' and 'reserve side pulled' are not the same thing. Your reserve was NOT pulled. Your reserve side (left side) instructor pulled your main for you (which makes it clear that fall rate was not really the entire issue, if it was, he would not be there to pull for you Wink)

Did you have video of the jump? I'm not going to armchair quarter back what other instructors or students do. What happened on your jump is for your instructors and you to discuss, not really for an internet forum, as none of us have seen what happened, and it's kind of short changing both you and your instructors for us to try to guess.

If you don't trust the feedback of your instructors, find new instructors or DZ. Trust in what your teachers are teaching you is important.


dirtbox  (D 31759)

Aug 30, 2012, 5:26 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't worry about the weight thing - the instructors should have been better prepared but it sounds like they have admitted it and are covering the second jump so that is a good thing. As you progress you will learn to control your fall rate and jumps suits you buy will also help. We had one student where I work who falls at the same rate (150+ in a normal student suit, 270lb+ out the door... I wore 22lb of lead and my fastest belly suit to match him, a couple of jumps later we got him a big baggy set of overalls, slowed him down to 130ish so you might want to think bout that. You'll find them at a hardware store or charity store pretty cheap, but of course check with YOUR instructors first.

Good lucks with the skydiving


adagen

Aug 30, 2012, 7:16 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

If it's left you nervous, why not try a session in a wind tunnel to give you confidence in your stability and learn a little about controlling fall rate? You might be able to arrange something with instructors from the DZ. If not, wind tunnel staff should be able to help.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 30, 2012, 7:28 AM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just a technicality, but 'pulled my reserve' and 'reserve side pulled' are not the same thing. Your reserve was NOT pulled. Your reserve side (left side) instructor pulled your main for you (which makes it clear that fall rate was not really the entire issue, if it was, he would not be there to pull for you Wink)

Did you have video of the jump? I'm not going to armchair quarter back what other instructors or students do. What happened on your jump is for your instructors and you to discuss, not really for an internet forum, as none of us have seen what happened, and it's kind of short changing both you and your instructors for us to try to guess.

If you don't trust the feedback of your instructors, find new instructors or DZ. Trust in what your teachers are teaching you is important.

this


5.samadhi

Aug 30, 2012, 8:48 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

sounds like the instructors failed that level! Sly


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Aug 30, 2012, 12:03 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
sounds like the instructors failed that level! Sly

I do not want to armchair QB this either but it does not seem right. I fall pretty fast in an arch, sit, etc. and the AFF's I know would never have this problem. Hell, one of our instructors when he is doing tandems has no issue speeding up or slowing down for the vidiot and he is not a big guy at all. Where these instructors really small guys/girls?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 30, 2012, 3:51 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In defense of the AFFIs, sort of, Level 1 fall rate is a guessing game and it doesn't always come out as planned.

Granted, the 'guessing' becomes 'educated guessing' over time and we get it right much more often than not. But, we don't know the experience level of these AFFIs.

Sometimes FF skills can come in handy.


5.samadhi

Aug 30, 2012, 8:39 PM
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In reply to:
In defense of the AFFIs, sort of, Level 1 fall rate is a guessing game and it doesn't always come out as planned.

Granted, the 'guessing' becomes 'educated guessing' over time and we get it right much more often than not. But, we don't know the experience level of these AFFIs.

Sometimes FF skills can come in handy.
If they can't match fall rate of their students why are they AFFI???? Fine to play a guessing game but shouldnt body position be able to give the AFFI enough range to catch a fast-faller.

if you fall slow as an AFFI wouldnt you think you'd learn to knee-fly???


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 30, 2012, 8:50 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you fall slow as an AFFI wouldnt you think you'd learn to knee-fly???

Given those that have done knee flying (show-offs Laugh) in the middle of RW jumps that I've been on, knee flying certainly doesn't have to be a fast falling position.


5.samadhi

Aug 30, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

anything doesnt "have" to be a fast position I've seen people orbit around on their head pretty slowly. It (knee-flying) certainly can be a very fast position (not as fast as sit but getting there depending on the positioning of the legs).


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 30, 2012, 11:08 PM
Post #18 of 45 (2547 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In defense of the AFFIs, sort of, Level 1 fall rate is a guessing game and it doesn't always come out as planned.

Granted, the 'guessing' becomes 'educated guessing' over time and we get it right much more often than not. But, we don't know the experience level of these AFFIs.

Sometimes FF skills can come in handy.
If they can't match fall rate of their students why are they AFFI???? Fine to play a guessing game but shouldnt body position be able to give the AFFI enough range to catch a fast-faller.

if you fall slow as an AFFI wouldnt you think you'd learn to knee-fly???

You need to bear in mind that the only side of the story we have heard has been from a person with a single AFF jump.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Aug 31, 2012, 12:27 AM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
anything doesnt "have" to be a fast position I've seen people orbit around on their head pretty slowly. It (knee-flying) certainly can be a very fast position (not as fast as sit but getting there depending on the positioning of the legs).

We're getting off topic, but you are talking utter crap here even by your standards. Actually, this whole thread is a bit of a shambles. Have you ever, ever seen an instructor knee fly during an AFF jump? Really?

Sharksblood, ignore pretty much anything said by someone without an AFF rating about your jump and what you might do.

This includes me.

As you will find in skydiving, the sport is full of people who want to give you advice as a way of showing how much they know. The problem being that a lot of the time they 'know' a bunch of nothing, and at the start it can be hard to recognise who to listen to (500 jumps sounds like a hell of a lot but isn't). This goes double for the Internet.


(This post was edited by Joellercoaster on Aug 31, 2012, 3:54 AM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:19 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Anvil Bros are going to love you.
What's the term for a fledgling Anvil Brother? An "Ingot"?

Let me guess, at 225 you're fairly short and built like a brick wall. Ex-wrestler? (the real kind, not the TV kind) You don't look anywhere near as fast as you are.

The first AFF jump is often a "holy shit I just jumped out of a plane!!" experience. The sensory overload often overwhelms first timers and they completely lose awareness of what's going on.
You didn't. You made some decisions that weren't the best, but you were thinking. You had a good exit and a good arch.

That's probably why they passed you on to L2.

The next time you will probably be given a suit that slows you down more, and the AFFIs will be dressed to go faster.

Take them up on the free L2. Make sure you discuss these concerns with the instructors on the next jump. Make absolutely sure they know about what happened here. Perhaps have them talk to the instructors from the first jump (if you get different ones).


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:36 AM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
sounds like the instructors failed that level! Sly

you're kind of a know it all for such a brand new jumper in the sport. 300 jumps is really just an infant in the sport yet. I hope you're learning more here opposed to just sounding off on multiple subjects. We can't give the AFFI's a pass. But I think without the video and the info from the jumpmasters directly, just a cavalier comment bashing them is pretty ignorant.


To the OP - much of the time, those super fast AFF Level falls are a combo of a 'brick' body type that also has his legs on his butt the whole time - they can really move - fall rate and backslide combined.

Though this may or may not be part of your experience, feet on butt is pretty normal, and hopefully your instructors observed enough to be able to do better next time and for you to also do better next time. It takes a lot of character for them to own it enough to put it in the logbook and offer up another jump like they did. I hope they still took all the possible opportunities to teach during and after the jump.

We had a featherweight AFF student here a couple years ago and it took a LOT of work and equipment optimizations, etc, to stick with the guy. He's now an excellent jumper. You will be too. I get anvils all the time also. They are nice as they tend to stay belly to earth

Not everyone is average build, weight and height. Armchair quarterbacking that makes cracks for anything even slightly short of perfection is about as juvenile as it comes and we see it from a lot of posters on an anonymous website.

FF skills do come in handy, but there's a lot less leverage for anyone that's not super skilled in the disciplines. There's very few students that a flexible instructor can't handle while on his belly - but total body flight does teach one to use the airflow even better in this and other orientations (I'm a big fan of all jumpers learning multiple freefall disciplines, even more for potential instructors to have that experience. I'm also a big fan of FF only types that disdain advanced belly skills to stay away from instruction ratings.)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 31, 2012, 6:42 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:01 AM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
anything doesnt "have" to be a fast position I've seen people orbit around on their head pretty slowly. It (knee-flying) certainly can be a very fast position (not as fast as sit but getting there depending on the positioning of the legs).

You should go to that DZ and show them how it is done. They would be for ever in your debt for sharing your huge amounts of internet skydiving experience.


scottd818  (C 41314)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:12 AM
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Re: [DougH] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

i fall super fast too im 6'2" and 250lbs. ON a couple of my aff jumps one of my reserve side instructor went into a sit to keep up with me. but he never let go and was always there. On lvl 4 when he moved infront of me he was in a sit and that was awesome to see.


5.samadhi

Aug 31, 2012, 8:17 AM
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Re: [DougH] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
anything doesnt "have" to be a fast position I've seen people orbit around on their head pretty slowly. It (knee-flying) certainly can be a very fast position (not as fast as sit but getting there depending on the positioning of the legs).

You should go to that DZ and show them how it is done. They would be for ever in your debt for sharing your huge amounts of internet skydiving experience.
kind of a retarded comment Doug???...do you disagree with my comment that you can fall fast or slow in a kneeflying position....fast or slow in a headdown...

I've sitfly/backflyed with people on their belly before so its possible to match all sorts of orientations with different speeds.


DougH  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 9:44 AM
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In reply to:
I've sitfly/backflyed with people on their belly before so its possible to match all sorts of orientations with different speeds.

No I don't disagree at all, your the shit dude. Like I said they could really benefit from your vast experience. I am peeing my pants over here because you responded to something that I typed with my own two hands.

We can totally draw an analogy between your few back-fly sitfly jumps and a level 1 AFF jump with a very fast falling student. Those are totally the same exact situation. Winning!

Just so we have a frame of reference, you have made X number of AFF jumps as an instructor, X number of instructor jumps in general?

I just want to give you a hand pricing your AFF consulting fees. Smile There is only one of you to go around and we need to price accordingly!

Sly


(This post was edited by DougH on Aug 31, 2012, 9:45 AM)


5.samadhi

Aug 31, 2012, 9:54 AM
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cutting through your layers of negativity and sarcasm is hard man...hard to even have a discussion with you man Unsure

oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy


Feeblemind  (D 28621)

Aug 31, 2012, 1:51 PM
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like you need to find some new instructors! I'm surprised they passed you onto level 2 since you didn't really do anything. I know you tried but you didn't pull, do practice pulls or actually check your altitude.

Did you even read his post? Sounds like he was doing everything he was trained to do with the instructors above him yanking him around and his fall rate complicated issues.

But Holy Crist, the turbulence was unbelievable. I was trying to do my count, but my body was being blasted and trying to twist from side to side. It was like someone was trying to flip me over on both sides and shaking the hell out of me. I was trying to keep the body position I was taught, but my arms were flailing uncontrollably and I was shaking so much I couldn't even focus on the sky.

I tried to keep my focus on my count to 4,000 and COA look at my altimeter for the prescribed check, but my arm was still shaking and flailing so much I couldn't see the altimeter to get the reading. I tried to check my heading and the horizon, but I still couldn't focus on the sky or anything else when I looked ahead.

Check for instructorsI decided I would just go to the next item in my maneuvers, which was to check right and left with my instructors. I look to my right to check in with my first instructor. HE WAS NO WHERE IN SIGHT!

Absolutely correctI remembered in training they said if you are separated from your instructors, just pull your chute.

I needed to see about the second instructor first. I look to my left. HE WASN'T THERE EITHER! ---But before I try to pull my chute,Aware of his surroundings, may have prevented a double fatal I saw out of the corner of my eye that The second instructor was still with me, but he was not next to me, but kind of behind and above me. I couldn't pull my parachute then or it would deploy into him.

Since The instructor was still with me and not telling me otherwise I thought maybe I should try to continue with my planned practice touches of the ripcord. The violent shaking had not gotten any better and I still had no idea what my altitude was, but I tried to move my right arm to make the first practice touch. I couldn't get my arm to move past my shoulder for the shaking and twisting I was being thrown around with.

I was thinking this is not good. I had to see what my altitude was...

BOOOOM!

I will not speak ill of instructors here, as an AFF-I I too have made errors in judging a students fall rate, I learned from those jumps, and I am sure the instructors on this jump did as well.

Good luck with your progrssion, I am a large model also, so if I can assist you in your aff with discussion please drop me a PM.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 31, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #28 of 45 (917 views)
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Re: [Feeblemind] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Too many instructors pass people who did not complete the dive flow. If a student doesn't pull on time they fail. period. If the instructors sucked and couldn't do thier job they should not accept any money for the jump and give it back to the student.
Just because an instructor screwed up that does not give the student an automatic pass.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 1, 2012, 7:26 AM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy

Here's some things you could learn:

- Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary...and then you ask yourself a question....Why are my belly skills and/or judgement skill so lacking that I needed the FF on that AFF jump?

- It's always best to refrain from giving advice and commenting on things you know little to nothing about.

- Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 1, 2012, 7:30 AM
Post #30 of 45 (879 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If a student doesn't pull on time they fail. period.

What does "on time" mean to you?

In reply to:
If the instructors sucked and couldn't do thier job they should not accept any money for the jump and give it back to the student.
I would agree with this.

In reply to:
Just because an instructor screwed up that does not give the student an automatic pass.
True enough...not the case here.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 1, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #31 of 45 (845 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've sitfly/backflyed with people on their belly before so its possible to match all sorts of orientations with different speeds.

You can do this docked on someone with zero tension on the grip?

You can do this docked w/ zero tension, and be able to make an effective scan of the students body position?

You can do this docked w/ zero tension, able to make an effective scan, and use you free hand to give corrective hand signals, assist the student, and pull for them if neccesary?

There's way more to freefall instruction than just being able to be 'near' the student. Unless you can guarantee that at a minimum you can take grips and deploy for the student while flying a given body position, you have no business flying that way with a student. 'Close' or 'almost' is not acceptable.

For the record, there are very few AFFIs with the chops to fly their slot on their knees, in a sit, or on their head. Very few.


Sharksblood  (B 37851)

Sep 1, 2012, 2:17 PM
Post #32 of 45 (827 views)
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Re: [Feeblemind] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to everyone for your comments and advice. You have given me some points to follow up on and helped me set up a plan to "get back on the horse."

1. I think my impressions of my instructors are that they were very good and skilled. One had 11,000 jumps and the one who pulled my chute had 17,000 jumps. My problem and reason for questions is my own self-doubt.

2.i wil ask about a bigger suit and I am sure someone will consider the instructors wearing weights, etc. to compensate for my fall rate. (I guess I am an "Anvil", I weight 215 lbs and am 5'11" tall but the at the DZ the morning of the jump, after breakfast, and 3 coffees, with all my clothes, they weighed me at 225.

3. I am booked for my AFF level 2 tomorrow morning at 8am.

4. I am going to do training in a wind tunnel where I signed up for 8 minutes of flight time this afternoon.

I feel better knowing I did a lot right and I am ready to give this another try. I am still nervous, but I am going to ask a lot of questions, make sure I go through everything I learned last week all over again and have a kick ass jump.

Thanks.


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 1, 2012, 2:23 PM
Post #33 of 45 (823 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I weight 215 lbs and am 5'11" tall

No lightweight, but not an anvil. Your fallrate should not be so terribly fast, unless perhaps you had a really strong arch. After your windtunnel time, you will probably know that a 110% arch isn't required to be stable. Just a relaxed position rather than straining in a severe arch is a lot more comfortable anyway.

Getting your windtunnel time on video might be helpful to your instructors.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Sep 1, 2012, 2:24 PM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Sep 1, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #34 of 45 (806 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

On time is by 4000ft, or if one of the instructors dumps you out because you're not doing it. If your reserve gets dumped you and/or the instructors really screwed up.


5.samadhi

Sep 1, 2012, 5:27 PM
Post #35 of 45 (790 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy

Here's some things you could learn:

- Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary...and then you ask yourself a question....Why are my belly skills and/or judgement skill so lacking that I needed the FF on that AFF jump?

- It's always best to refrain from giving advice and commenting on things you know little to nothing about.

- Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.
so when the jump is happening going into a fast kneefly or sit to catch a student is a skill you'd use if all else fails? It doesnt matter if you beat yourself up for not wearing some lead about it later...cypres can fail better do whatever it takes...

why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Sep 1, 2012, 5:28 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 1, 2012, 5:39 PM
Post #36 of 45 (785 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy

Here's some things you could learn:

- Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary...and then you ask yourself a question....Why are my belly skills and/or judgement skill so lacking that I needed the FF on that AFF jump?

- It's always best to refrain from giving advice and commenting on things you know little to nothing about.

- Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.
so when the jump is happening going into a fast kneefly or sit to catch a student is a skill you'd use if all else fails? It doesnt matter if you beat yourself up for not wearing some lead about it later...cypres can fail better do whatever it takes...

why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?

It's best to listen to seasoned instructors and learn. You don't need an instructorrating to ask questions, but sure as heck do to dispense advice on how the jump 'should' be done.


Sharksblood  (B 37851)

Sep 1, 2012, 9:13 PM
Post #37 of 45 (761 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just got back from the wind tunnel. Thanks adagen for the advice to give this a try. I feel like I got to make all the mistakes in I would have made on my next 8 skydives in one afternoon, without the added fear and pressure of the actual skydive.

I had a great instructor at the iFly facility that I told all about my first jump issues and that I am doing the AFF 2 tomorrow and he worked with me through each successive flight to improve my arch, arms, legs and body position.

I had a video made of all my flights that I can show my instructors tomorrow and that I can use to help myself see what my issues are.

I already could see that I was arching so much I was almost folding backwards. I was also letting my arms and shoulders push back behind me.

-I learned to arch less, that I need to pull arms and shoulders forward toward my chest, to move my hands more forward, relax and unclench fist/fingers.

-To make turns I only need slight movement of hands and arms, not to pivot or twist my entire shoulder or body or it will make me flip over.

I feel much more confident and ready to take on my AFF 2 training and jump tomorrow.

I have my video and a list of questions for my instructors.

Thanks again to everyone for your words of advice and encouragement.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 2, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #38 of 45 (719 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
oh well there was probably nothing to learn here for anybody wanting to be an AFF instructor or wanting to be a better aff instructor Crazy

Here's some things you could learn:

- Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary...and then you ask yourself a question....Why are my belly skills and/or judgement skill so lacking that I needed the FF on that AFF jump?

- It's always best to refrain from giving advice and commenting on things you know little to nothing about.

- Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.
-------------------------
In reply to:
so when the jump is happening going into a fast kneefly or sit to catch a student is a skill you'd use if all else fails? It doesnt matter if you beat yourself up for not wearing some lead about it later...cypres can fail better do whatever it takes...

What did I say?
"Any FF body position is NOT the desired body position for AFF. It is a skill that should be used ONLY if absolutely necessary."

In reply to:
why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?
What is common sense is dictated by your knowledge base/foundation. You're coming up short here.

It's good that you are questioning. It's bad that you are arguing and not listening when you have little knowledge base/foundation as you have demonstrated in this thread.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 2, 2012, 5:58 AM
Post #39 of 45 (716 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just got back from the wind tunnel. Thanks adagen for the advice to give this a try. I feel like I got to make all the mistakes in I would have made on my next 8 skydives in one afternoon, without the added fear and pressure of the actual skydive.
Good stuff! Ahhhh, yes...the benefits of tunnel time.

In reply to:
I already could see that I was arching so much I was almost folding backwards.
One major reason for the fast fall rate!

In reply to:
I was also letting my arms and shoulders push back behind me.
Better than below your shoulders!

In reply to:
I feel much more confident and ready to take on my AFF 2 training and jump tomorrow.
Big smile here. If YOU ain't smiling, you ain't doin' it right!


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 2, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #40 of 45 (704 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I already could see that I was arching so much I was almost folding backwards.t.

Someone solidly built... AND really flexible. That's good for surprising instructors!


In reply to:
One had 11,000 jumps and the one who pulled my chute had 17,000 jumps.

Which shows others how easy it is to criticize on the internet, how hard it is to be perfect as an instructor on every single jump.

Newbie instructors. They should be on DZ.com more and learn how to really fly. TongueTongue


Sounds like your next AFF jumps should go a lot smoother. Have fun.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Sep 2, 2012, 7:16 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Sep 2, 2012, 6:52 AM
Post #41 of 45 (698 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?

Because your sense isn't common. Shut up and jump cupcake. Sly


5.samadhi

Sep 2, 2012, 9:56 AM
Post #42 of 45 (674 views)
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Re: [DougH] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
why need an AFFI rating to talk about this its common sense?

Because your sense isn't common. Shut up and jump cupcake. Sly
alright I like that advice Doug SlyCool


Sharksblood  (B 37851)

Sep 2, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #43 of 45 (614 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

My second jump was scheduled for this morning after the past week of apprehension, fear and wondering what the hell happened on that first jump, whether skydiving was for me or even if I could do this again.

I was feeling confident this morning after the time in the wind tunnel yesterday and hoping to get some feedback from the instructors based on my video from the wind tunnel.

I got the same two instructors as I had for my first jump and they said they wanted me to repeat the AFF level 1 even though they had passed me in the log book last week. They said they only did that in case the DZ operator might not have given me a free repeat jump, but since I did get a free jump, they thought it would be better for me to repeat level 1 than to try to move on to level 2.

They then took the time to review my video from the wind tunnel and commented that my body position and stability improved considerably from flight to flight. They felt my work in the wind tunnel would help with the fall rate. Also to help address the fall rate issue on my second jump, one instructor wore a 15 pound weight belt, the other said he would fly in a sit if he needed to and I had lost 5 pounds since last week, so I was down to a fully clothed weight of 218. They also put me in a 2X jumpsuit.

All in all I think I just felt more relaxed, confident and better prepared for this jump.

We went out at 12,500 above ground level.

This time the wind was familiar. No more than the wind tunnel. I did my count to 4,000. Did my altimeter check. Checked the horizon.

Checked with instructor on the right. Big thumbs up!

Checked with the instructor on the left. big thumbs up!

The rest of the skydive was a flawless AFF 1 dive. I was actually able to look around me and see what an absolutely incredible view and experience this was. During my leg extensions and forward motion I was having so much fun I was actually making faces and "thumbs up" to the cameraman.

This time my log book reads:

Jump#2
Date 9/2/12
Aircraft: Otter
Equip: Nav 280
Exit altitude:12,500
Skydive: AFF Level 1 Repeat
Exit: Set up and exit good
Maneuvers: COA good, 3 PCTs- good w/ assist, good on alt awareness, good on fwd movement, legs out on signal in Freefall-good, continue w/arch thru deployment, pull by self by 5,000'
Canopy control: Excellent! Min. Radio Assist
Tunnel Time Made The Difference!
Landing: PLF modified! Flare at 10-12ft.

Passed to level 2. (I was told our fall rate averaged 132 mph- down from the 154 we clocked on the first jump)

The only thing I had to deal with was after my chute deployed I looked up and the damn thing was in a line twist about 8 times. I thought I survived the skydive and now I am going to have to do a cutaway on my second jump. But I checked my altimeter and was still at over 4,000 feet so I started kicking like crazy to swing and spin and it started to untwist. In just a few seconds I was straight and steady. I checked the canopy and it was smooth sailing from there.

OH MY GOD!!! This is the the most incredible thing I have ever done in my life!

I can't wait to do it again!

I am so glad I screwed up my courage to get back in that plane and jump again. Thank you to everyone on the forum for your kind words of encouragement, advice and support. It helped me with some focus and direction to get back out there today and jump again.

I don't know yet if this will become a lifelong avocation, but already it has been a life changing experience.

Thanks a million.


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 3, 2012, 12:08 AM
Post #44 of 45 (599 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly congratulations!

Secondly I am extremely impressed with a couple of things. For someone with very few jumps you've portrayed things very clearly and accurately. You seem to have been very aware on your jumps - I wish I was half as aware as you on my early jumps.

Finally I am VERY impressed that the school gave you a free AFF rejump and the way they have handled your learning to date.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 4, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #45 of 45 (499 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For someone with very few jumps you've portrayed things very clearly and accurately. You seem to have been very aware on your jumps - I wish I was half as aware as you on my early jumps.

Finally I am VERY impressed that the school gave you a free AFF rejump and the way they have handled your learning to date.

I was thinking exactly these points, too.



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