Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies

 

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Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 29, 2012, 7:30 AM
Post #51 of 81 (2442 views)
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     Re: [davelepka] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Hey Dave,

I'm not saying at all that anyone should stay on a large canopy for ever. I was just hoping to come up with some videos to "prove" to newer jumpers that figure they NEED to downsize/go elliptical in order to swoop. I wanted to be able to come up with some videos that showed average people swooping average canopies (at reasonable wingloadings) to give them something to work towards. A reason NOT to downsize sooner.

I have no idea how this has turned into me calling out swoopers saying that they "can't" swoop a large canopy. I'm very simply asking them to share it for the benefit of newer jumpers.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with me trying to change anything about me. I'm on a small canopy, and I don't forsee myself changing that at this point. I just hate reading thread after thread where experienced jumpers try to convince new jumpers that their Sabre2 170 will last them 500 jumps and they should be able to rip an awesome swoop before even remotely considering downsizing. I'm not saying it won't last them 500 jumps, I'm just saying that we should be able to show them that their swoops really aren't anything more than a quick landing, and it will encourage them to work harder at learning to fly the canopy before downsizing.

I'm trying to do some good, but it seems to keep being turned around on me that I'm trying to indicate that I'm some sort of prodigy and the rules don't apply to me. I am not AT ALL trying to do any of that. I realize I'm not an ace swooper, I'm an average joe that downsized quickly and I am nothing more that that.

Does anyone understand what I'm trying to get out of this thread or is it completely off the wall?

@Ian - It's all good...


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 29, 2012, 8:57 AM
Post #52 of 81 (2414 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

I don't think many people do what you are looking for (ie. want to swoop but stay on a big canopy until they are ripping 270s) partly because it is the wrong tool for the job.

Don't get me wrong - it is VITAL to learn the basics (flying a pattern, flare timing, use of all control inputs) on a bigger, more forgiving canopy, but once people start getting into 180+ turns, there is something to be said for using a canopy, and a WL, that the manufacturers have designed for the job.

None of the above means that it is not possible to swoop a bigger, more docile wing - I am just saying that if people want more speed, it is much easier to obtain through downsizing and most people go that route.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 29, 2012, 9:03 AM
Post #53 of 81 (2413 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The age old argument that "You can outswoop a swooper on a tiny elliptical by learning how to fly your normal canopy"



I've never heard that - and I'm age old.


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 29, 2012, 2:39 PM
Post #54 of 81 (2359 views)
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     Re: [DocPop] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I don't think many people do what you are looking for (ie. want to swoop but stay on a big canopy until they are ripping 270s) partly because it is the wrong tool for the job.

I stayed on my old Heatwave 170 well into the 270 deg turn progression. Sold it after a few hundred jumps on it and bought a XF2 149, was doing 270s on that until I sold it after another few hundred jumps and bought a Velo 120. Same thing until I bought a Velo 111.

I will tell you with the Heatwave and also with Stilettos I was jumping of the same size, you can max out the speed of the canopy to where it won't fly flat in the swoop any more. It'll actually climb out after the dive. Although I will admit that it was a peculiar case since I loaded the 170 at 1.7.

I don't have any video of it, but I do have this picture from 2002-ish on that canopy.

The point is there are people out there making larger turns on big canopies, even though it isn't the norm.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Aug 29, 2012, 3:03 PM)
Attachments: swooooooop-2.jpg (32.2 KB)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 29, 2012, 5:17 PM
Post #55 of 81 (2327 views)
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     Re: [AggieDave] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't think many people do what you are looking for (ie. want to swoop but stay on a big canopy until they are ripping 270s) partly because it is the wrong tool for the job.

I stayed on my old Heatwave 170 well into the 270 deg turn progression. Sold it after a few hundred jumps on it and bought a XF2 149, was doing 270s on that until I sold it after another few hundred jumps and bought a Velo 120. Same thing until I bought a Velo 111.

I will tell you with the Heatwave and also with Stilettos I was jumping of the same size, you can max out the speed of the canopy to where it won't fly flat in the swoop any more. It'll actually climb out after the dive. Although I will admit that it was a peculiar case since I loaded the 170 at 1.7.

I don't have any video of it, but I do have this picture from 2002-ish on that canopy.

The point is there are people out there making larger turns on big canopies, even though it isn't the norm.

That is kind of an exceptional case due to your loading, but kind of proves my point really. You learned 270s on an elliptical loaded at 1.7 - that's what I am doing but mine happens to be a KA120 which would be regarded (these days at least) as more of a swooping canopy.

Nice pic BTW - certainly gives an impression of the speed!


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 29, 2012, 5:34 PM
Post #56 of 81 (2319 views)
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     Re: [DocPop] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
That is kind of an exceptional case due to your loading, but kind of proves my point really. You learned 270s on an elliptical loaded at 1.7 - that's what I am doing but mine happens to be a KA120 which would be regarded (these days at least) as more of a swooping canopy.

Nice pic BTW - certainly gives an impression of the speed!

A 170 loaded at 1.7 is a different animal than a 120 loaded at 1.7. Drag and line length, etc.

Still a no-shit wingloading no matter if it is a 120 or a 320.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 29, 2012, 5:45 PM
Post #57 of 81 (2316 views)
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     Re: [AggieDave] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
A 170 loaded at 1.7 is a different animal than a 120 loaded at 1.7. Drag and line length, etc.

Still a no-shit wingloading no matter if it is a 120 or a 320.

Totally agree.


Martini  (D 23756)

Aug 29, 2012, 5:56 PM
Post #58 of 81 (2312 views)
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     Re: [AggieDave] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Quote:
I will tell you with the Heatwave and also with Stilettos I was jumping of the same size, you can max out the speed of the canopy to where it won't fly flat in the swoop any more. It'll actually climb out after the dive.

Otherwise known as a pop-n-drop.


5.samadhi

Aug 29, 2012, 8:32 PM
Post #59 of 81 (2288 views)
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     Re: [DocPop] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I don't think many people do what you are looking for (ie. want to swoop but stay on a big canopy until they are ripping 270s) partly because it is the wrong tool for the job.

Don't get me wrong - it is VITAL to learn the basics (flying a pattern, flare timing, use of all control inputs) on a bigger, more forgiving canopy, but once people start getting into 180+ turns, there is something to be said for using a canopy, and a WL, that the manufacturers have designed for the job.

None of the above means that it is not possible to swoop a bigger, more docile wing - I am just saying that if people want more speed, it is much easier to obtain through downsizing and most people go that route.
Chriss, this is the kind of poster that you are attempting to target - ie novice swooper - and look how quickly he disregarded the persuasion or 'force' of the video evidence.

All that hard work in this thread for nothing Sly


f94sbu  (D 16017)

Aug 30, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #60 of 81 (2189 views)
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     Re: [ianmdrennan] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
Jackass!

Tell me something I don't know Smile

How many jumps a competition lineset can handle? Cool


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 30, 2012, 12:35 PM
Post #61 of 81 (2171 views)
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     Re: [f94sbu] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

Well played, sir Smile


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Aug 30, 2012, 12:36 PM)


f94sbu  (D 16017)

Aug 30, 2012, 1:35 PM
Post #62 of 81 (2154 views)
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     Re: [ianmdrennan] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Thank you, Sir!


Guinness_fr  (D 109579)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:20 AM
Post #63 of 81 (2054 views)
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     Re: [ianmdrennan] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Totally off topic but this reminds me that I wanted to ask if anyone had already measured the number of Gs that we are pulling in competition during our turns and compared them with the Gs we can get on very soft openings (hop & pop right out the door of a slow flying PAC750 for example).

I'm asking because imagine that you had had a very very soft opening on that particular jump and that the lines got actually stressed during the turn (or the recovery), I would have hated to witness what you experienced lower to the ground Pirate scary stuff...


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #64 of 81 (2048 views)
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     Re: [Guinness_fr] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Quote:
I'm asking because imagine that you had had a very very soft opening on that particular jump and that the lines got actually stressed during the turn (or the recovery), I would have hated to witness what you experienced lower to the ground Pirate scary stuff...

Marat went through that a couple of years ago, but he had seriously worn 300 HMA lines and a higher exit weight. He got hurt but he got lucky too in that he wasn't more hurt than he was.

That is also why I never went to 300 HMA lines, with my exit weight I stayed with the 500s. Using empirical measurements I think my exit weight is roughly 2.25 Ian Drennans or roughly .85 Big Steves.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 31, 2012, 8:00 AM
Post #65 of 81 (2043 views)
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     Re: [Guinness_fr] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

While always a concern (breaking in a turn) the lines are far, far more likely to break on opening.

That said it did happen to Marat who, like Dave said, had extremely worn lines.

I knew the line replacement time was drawing close, and tried to squeak one last comp out of them (Poor decision on my part in retrospect) but I attribute my breakage to older lines and also having 2 REALLY REALLY hard openings the day before. I think those openings were the beginning of the end for them.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Aug 31, 2012, 8:00 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 31, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #66 of 81 (2019 views)
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     Re: [ianmdrennan] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I attribute my breakage to older lines and also having 2 REALLY REALLY hard openings the day before. I think those openings were the beginning of the end for them.

Ian

Do you think the hard openings had anything to do with worn lines?

I am not sure if that happens with HMA, but I'd be interested in your opinion.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 31, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #67 of 81 (1987 views)
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     Re: [DocPop] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

I honestly have no idea. I've never seen my openings deteriorate with line age (just with my shitty packing) :)


cocheese  (D 24000)

Sep 1, 2012, 5:38 PM
Post #68 of 81 (1898 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

I try not to laugh when people compliment my shitty swoops on my 150. I know it's a loud tuna boat, but it floats my fat ass to a happy ending. I swear I get ground effect some times.Cool


Morav  (B 10806)

Sep 3, 2012, 1:03 PM
Post #69 of 81 (1804 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Hey Chris,

I think the reason you are getting flamed is because you are missing the point.

Staying on a larger canopy allows you to build survival skills and good habits that are needed to have a successful jumping career on smaller more HP canopies. Comparing swoops between normal canopies and HP ones is pointless. A Sabre or Safire load at X WL has terminal velocity, they can only go so fast. Learning how to tap into that speed *safely*, and having consistent accuracy is where you really start learning. Things happen relatively slower on "normal" canopies which allow you to figure out how to make them go faster By skipping steps you really increase the risk, and it's likely the canopies flying you, and you'r just hanging on!

I've been trying to fly the shit of of my Sabre2 150 to the point my arms are hurting right now typing, and I still feel there's tonnes to learn.

And to prove my point I flew a Katana 120 loaded about about 1.71 and did a 90 on my first jump. :P What did I learn? They're built to go fast! and if I owned one I'd really increase my chance of getting hurt.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LypjMvZrrbs
Flame away.


(This post was edited by Morav on Sep 3, 2012, 6:22 PM)


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Sep 4, 2012, 1:14 PM
Post #70 of 81 (1677 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

I learned almost all of what I know about swooping on a sabre2 170 and 150 it can be done. That being said since I know fly a 109 and 96 (when I am around) my muscle memory is a bit rusty on the bigger canopies... But there was quite a while where I embarrassed some velo pilots at the local dz (not the ranch) by out swooping their velos with a 129 Xfire 2.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Sep 7, 2012, 11:31 AM
Post #71 of 81 (1545 views)
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     Re: [Morav] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

I'm not even going to try and explain myself for the 6th time. I'm not missing the point, the readers are missing the point. I'm not after any form of approval for anything I'm doing, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but you're completely missing 'MY" point. Everyone is too caught up in trying to shit on people on dz.com to actually try to read what is being written.

Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled program. I think there's a couple new posts for the canopy nazi's to try and fight over who gets the first post. Hurry along!


5.samadhi

Sep 7, 2012, 8:48 PM
Post #72 of 81 (1474 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

^ its a bit like hitting your head against a brick wall isnt it?

My advice for you Chris: Just have fun in this forum and talk about what canopy is good or whatever. Don't try to have any substantive conversation its pretty much worthless.

Don't you spend enough time talking to retarded people through work and life in general to get your fill? I know I do! Sly


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Sep 8, 2012, 12:06 AM
Post #73 of 81 (1457 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

No, thanks for posting - some of the video responses were cool. Smile


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Sep 8, 2012, 9:18 AM
Post #74 of 81 (1425 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

I don't need to post a fucking video. I swooped professionally on the PST tour for five years, but I routinely swap back and forth from my AFF/swoop/work rig with a Xaos 27 80 and my wingsuit rig with a Sabre2 97 with HMA and a full RDS. I can tell you, without hesitation, that my best freestyle canopy is the Sabre2. It's much more controllable for one-handed tricks and it opens good. I land it to a complete stop 90% of the time on rears only.

Chuck


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Sep 8, 2012, 6:43 PM
Post #75 of 81 (1364 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

[GOLFCLAP]You sir just made the greatest case of how egotistical skydivers can be. [/GOLFCLAP]

Pro swoop tour for 5 years, a Sabre2 with HMA AND a FULL RDS, I'm truly impressed! Not just a removable slider, but a full RDS! I stand down...you sir are the most bestest swooper in the world!

As much as I'd like to let your ego stew in itself, I figure I should break the bad news. The thread never asked you to prove anything. It's asking for you to post videos to help NEW jumpers from wanting to downsize so soon. You know...help others and help the sport?

Nothing personal Chuck, but you've gotta honestly admit, you're post was pretty "self proclaiming" for no reason. Maybe stopping at 5 years on the PST would have sufficed, but going on about your Sabre2 97 with HMA and a FULL RDS, your 80sq ft AFF/work/swoop rig and your one handed rear riser 90% of the time completely stopped landings...that makes me giggle. Completely unnecessary for anything other than making a point of how great you are on the interweb.

Come on people...read the thread instead of just pouncing for no reason. This isn't about me or you, it's to help newer jumpers.


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