Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
So I want to swoop...

 


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 18, 2012, 5:58 PM
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So I want to swoop... Can't Post

Ok guys, I know you might hate me for posting this, but nevermind. I'm a very recently qualified jumper (I wouldn't even qualify for a USPA A licence), and after trying a few disciplines, I've decided that canopy flight is probably my favourite thing. I've done a bit of formation coached jumps, but I didn't really enjoy them. I can't see myself getting into freeflying either, as it'll be like FS but upside down and more difficult. All my cool peers are banging on about tube exits, hybrids and jumping with some guy called 'Dan BC' (I know, kill me), and I'm not sure if this is what I came into skydiving for. I don't like long plane rides, I love getting out low, and I've enjoyed a little bit of accuracy recently too. Anyway, I think I've decided I want to be the world's best canopy pilot (not necessarily the coolest swooper), and I'm looking for things to occupy myself with the 120 jumps before I can even think about high performance canopy flight. Anything I can work on?

I've got my B licence stuff to sort out, but I should complete that fairly soon. For people familiar with the BPA system, I also need a grade 1 for my C licence, any ideas? As I said before, I was turned off by FS.

As far as equipment goes, I'm on rental kit at the moment, with no rush to downsize. I've jumping 210s for pretty much all my jumps and my favourite was the Triathlon followed by the Spectre.

tl;dr I need stuff to occupy my next 100 or so jumps


(This post was edited by Quagmirian on Aug 18, 2012, 6:24 PM)


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Aug 18, 2012, 6:13 PM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swooper... [In reply to] Can't Post

best troll ever or the next sangi?


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 18, 2012, 6:25 PM
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Re: [dqpacker] So I want to swooper... [In reply to] Can't Post

Forgive me for taking canopy control seriously.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Aug 18, 2012, 6:27 PM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swooper... [In reply to] Can't Post

next sangi it is!


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Aug 18, 2012, 7:50 PM
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Re: [dqpacker] So I want to swooper... [In reply to] Can't Post

Where's the like button?


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Aug 18, 2012, 8:08 PM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't like long plane rides, I love getting out low, and I've enjoyed a little bit of accuracy recently too. Anyway, I think I've decided I want to be the world's best canopy pilot (not necessarily the coolest swooper), and I'm looking for things to occupy myself with the 120 jumps before I can even think about high performance canopy flight. Anything I can work on?

tl;dr I need stuff to occupy my next 100 or so jumps

There's more to canopy flight than landing fast.

Classic accuracy is its own thing. You could upsize and do that.

Those skills are very useful in a BASE environment where a 5 meter miss means flying into a cliff or trees not landing outside a pea gravel pit. Landing on thedownstream edge of a 10x10' boulder top so you can pull in your pilot chute before it lands in a fast moving river is pretty exciting.

In that sport you can get out really low, as in 100 meters not 1000.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Aug 18, 2012, 8:39 PM)


excaza  (C License)

Aug 18, 2012, 8:20 PM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Take some canopy courses.


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 18, 2012, 9:02 PM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to take your post seriously and see where it goes.

You can learn to swoop. It isn't hard and it isn't anything 1,000 jumps won't teach you. Sound like a lot? Well, you can probably cut out about 20 of those jumps with some canopy coaching.

First of all, you have to realize that swooping is 100% about learning to fly the canopy you have to the absolute limits of what that canopy is able to achieve. That doesn't mean yoinking on risers or downsizing too quickly, since that is actually the exact opposite of what an accomplished swooper strives for.

Would you rather be on a Katana 120 and be scary or be on a Sabre2 170 and out swoop the assholes on smaller canopies? Personally I would rather be on the big "slow" canopy and out swoop the others. That shows true skill and understanding. Anyone can go fast on a small canopy, not everyone can swoop the piss out of a bigger canopy. Only a real canopy pilot can do that.

A real canopy pilot understands that the landing pattern is the foundation a swoop is built on. With out accuracy in the pattern, a swoop can not happen consistently. Who wants to be the guy who throws an air-ball sunset pond swoop? Not me, that's for sure! I want to be the guy who goes dirt-water-dirt while tossing a ghostrider blindman.

So you can go get coaching on the canopy you have and be the king of your DZ swoopers or you can downsize too quickly and "walk" with a wheelchair the rest of your life (and have a limp dick because of it). Your choice.


BMFin

Aug 19, 2012, 7:20 AM
Post #9 of 88 (7476 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] So I want to swooper... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
best troll ever or the next sangi?

Someone asking for guidance for becoming a better canopy pilot and this is your answer? The next guy is pressing the like button..

What the fuck is wrong with this community.


trigger  (D 101390)

Aug 19, 2012, 12:52 PM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

See if you can get hold of Chris Lynch. Wingtips CH1, CH2


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #11 of 88 (7386 views)
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Re: [BMFin] So I want to swooper... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
best troll ever or the next sangi?

Someone asking for guidance for becoming a better canopy pilot and this is your answer? The next guy is pressing the like button..

What the fuck is wrong with this community.

I agree.

Snide remarks here and "mad skillz" references are adding to the problem IMO, not helping it.

AggieDave, Ian Drennan and a few others are genuinely committed to helping young jumpers progress along the right path, but they are the minority unfortunately.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Aug 19, 2012, 6:45 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Good advice from Dave.

In reply to:
A real canopy pilot understands that the landing pattern is the foundation a swoop is built on. With out accuracy in the pattern, a swoop can not happen consistently.

Given the OP's experience level, I think this is where they should be focused for the next 50 jumps. Accuracy in the pattern, not just the final 5 feet, is just so important for a consistent and safe approach.

Dave, maybe expound a bit more on what is meant by accuracy in the pattern?


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 19, 2012, 7:33 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Given the OP's experience level, I think this is where they should be focused for the next 50 jumps. Accuracy in the pattern, not just the final 5 feet, is just so important for a consistent and safe approach.

Dave, maybe expound a bit more on what is meant by accuracy in the pattern?

To swoop safely and accurately you have to make your regular turn to final at the right spot over the ground and within your "window of opportunity." You strive to hit your "golden altitude" for your turn, but more often than not you're just making your window, which is the range of altitudes top and bottom that you can do your standard turn in. When you vary from that, when you miss that window or you miss that spot, that is when you get hurt or killed.

Read on to learn how to start the process to get to that point with your skillset. I'm not going to lie to you, this process takes thousands of jumps to master. The very top pro swoopers are still refining that skill on every training jump because conditions change.

Accuracy in the pattern is three dimensional. It doesn't mean that you hit your altitudes for your turns or you hit your turn way points, it means that you hit your turn way points at the altitudes you planned.

Down the road you will learn how to plan your pattern for wind directions that are different than standard (for setting up on a quartering downwind course, for example) and so you hit your "window of opportunity," but for now we have to build the foundation of knowledge and more importantly the foundation of skill to build to that advanced point.

The first thing to learn is how to set your pattern properly for the skydive you are about to do. You dirt dive your freefall, you must also dirt dive your canopy flight. In fact I would argue that it is MORE important to have a solid plan for your canopy flight, since if you have a plan you can adapt that plan if you need to, if an unknown variable pops up (get cut off in the pattern, the spot it long, etc). If you don't have a plan, then your decision making process is already at least two steps behind, add an unknown variable and you are now relying on luck. I don't want to rely on luck.

There are three things you have to know to plan your pattern: 1. where are you going to land, 2. where (and what altitude are you going to open) and 3. where is the exit spot. To know all of that you have to know what your winds aloft are from the ground to altitude.

If you know those three things then you are simply connecting the dots at the beginning. I'm going to land in the peas, and I'm opening over the north end of the packing hanger with the spot further north on the corner of the airport property. If you know what the ground winds are doing, draw your pattern appropriately. If you know where you are going to open and what the winds at 3k are doing, then you can mark your holding area. If you know where the spot is, then you can mark that as well. Now you have your three vectors and you know that if something is wrong, assuming the wind conditions don't drastically change, you will be along one of those three vectors.

Knowing those vectors you know where your outs are along that path. You know what your pattern should look like, you can slide your pattern over your out. Fly your pattern in your out and you'll be less likely to end up in a fence or tree (or worse, make a panic low turn).

Now that you have your path and you have your pattern, you have your turning way points for your pattern and their altitudes. In the beginning you'll typically have 3 basic patterns that you fly: 1. no wind/light wind, 2. medium wind and 3. your personal wind limit/high winds. By having those basic patterns built, you have the ability to learn how to apply them and then learn how to refine those patterns to make them accurate. If you miss the right altitude to get into your holding area or miss the altitude to hit the downwind waypoint, then you're having to play catch up for the entire pattern. Sometimes you are too far behind to safely get to your initiation point at the right altitude.

Some neat "tips of the trade" that can help you hit your waypoints at the right altitude is understanding your body position and flight configuration and how it effects your canopy flight. Eventually you will find yourself trying to lose or gain altitude in the pattern to make your way point at the right altitude.

You can "gain" altitude by getting your canopy to float the downwind leg. Cleaning up your body position and adding even toggle input will help you conserve altitude to make your base leg way point. If you need to "lose" altitude you can go to full flight and "get big" in the harness to slow your forward speed down. Personally I've found that if I fly my downwind leg in about 1/4 brakes I have the most room to move either direction. If you are already in 1/2 brakes or full flight in your downwind leg, you don't have much more, if any, canopy left to use to gain or lose for your base leg way point.

"Why don't I just sashay back and forth, or cut the corner or extend the corner and crab back on the base leg?"

First of all we're trying to have the least effect as possible on our canopy's recovery process. Every input, however minor effects your canopy's flight. On a big canopy loaded at .75:1 you may not be able to detect that change. On a small canopy loaded north of 2.5:1 it can be exceptionally obvious. So doing rocking movements, s-turns or other variations means that you're now causing the pendulum of your body to swing back and forth. Your canopy is going to have to go through the recovery process to re-achieve neutral flight. You can make adjustments to quicken that process, but you still have to lose energy to make that happen. The energy loss on your downwind leg may not be all that important for your turn to final, but it will create a problem for your accuracy coming into your base leg and hitting the way point for your turn to final.

Furthermore, erratic movements in the pattern is not safe nor courteous canopy flight. You can cause a canopy collision, even if it isn't you and another jumper, the jumper 4-jumpers behind you in the "school of fish" coming in for landing may not have the time or ability to react to the others having to react to you.

Eventually, when you're on a heavily loaded swoop monster you'll try to keep your movements in the pattern as small as possible, flying with more of a flat turn between your way points so you can retain and carry as much energy into your turn to final as possible.

If you plan your landing and fly your plan (assuming it is safe to do so) and you fail to land accurately, then you have a base plan to modify to make your next jump more accurate. So if you landed 40ft long, you can slide your whole pattern back 40ft and on the next jump it should be a more accurate landing. If you don't plan your pattern and fly your plan then you are really just throwing darts at the dartboard, you will never be able to refine your flying to make the landing accurate or your pattern accurate.

If you never make your landing point accurate and you never make your pattern accurate, then you will never be able to consistently swoop. Learning this process after you downsize makes it harder and it takes more jumps. If you learn these skills now, before you downsize, then the transition period to your new canopy will be shorter.


To make that all happen you need to learn about stalls, toggle stalls, rear riser stalls, the accuracy trick/magic spot, body position under canopy and how it effects your flight, flat turns, spotting...and well, there are many more, but this is a start.

Print off an aerial photo of your DZ from Google and get it laminated. Buy a dry erase marker and put it in your gear bag. Now you have your pattern planner tools with you so you actually do it.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Aug 19, 2012, 8:07 PM
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Re: [BMFin] So I want to swooper... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
best troll ever or the next sangi?

Someone asking for guidance for becoming a better canopy pilot and this is your answer? The next guy is pressing the like button..

What the fuck is wrong with this community.

the Dropzone.com community. everything. the real skydiving community. a few things.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 11:09 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

AggieDave - awesome post.

Thankyou. This post alone should be a sticky. A reference guide for anyone setting out on this path.

I know that for me flying the pattern is my biggest challenge. If I can hit my IP at, or close to, where I want to, then the turn becomes much easier and in turn much more powerful.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Aug 20, 2012, 9:48 AM
Post #16 of 88 (7188 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

You might look into doing crw too. It's all about flying your parachute but with friends :). England has some good crwdogs for sure.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 21, 2012, 6:02 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome post Dave!!!

To the OP some on here are going to give you shit because of your lack of experience. Some are doing it, because they have seen the blood and guts first hand. They have seen friends die or end up crippled. Swooping is dangerous.

And some are just assholes and take every oppurtunity to display it online....

As DocPop stated Dave and Ian are some of the few that take to heart helping younger guys do it right. The key is RIGHT.

I am not qualified to give you specific advice in swooping. What I will say is take it slow and get coaching. Coaching really is worth its weight in gold so to speak. Just makes sure your "coaching" is from a qualified sorce, like a proven competive canopy pilot, not just some guy from your dz.

Dave is spot on when he tells you it will take thousands of jumps. If it is something you want to pursue one thing I know is you will pursue it anyway. Just make sure you pursue your goals the right way. Get coaching and take it SLOW.

I would highly recommend you search for Sangi in the incidents forum. Watch the links to his videos. After that, drill in to your head that if I take it too fast this WILL happen to me!

You COULD have the skill within you to be the best. I don't know you and have no idea. In fact, with your level of experience no one knows yet. Nick Batsh came from my area. When he was starting off everyone thought he was nuts and going to kill himself. Now look at him. Unarguably one of the best, in my opinion he is the best, but I am a "homer" lol. You will never find out if you can dethrone the best if you break yourself before your time.

The skills Dave described for the pattern are essential before ever getting to turns. You can't build a skyscraper without a strong foundation. It will just come crashing down, like Sangi. Seriously go watch, and yes it CAN happen to you. Be sure to read the descriptions too.

http://youtu.be/tF578oSkrKk

http://youtu.be/9YZHpdtQVMw


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 21, 2012, 8:50 AM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...

I don't like long plane rides, I love getting out low, and I've enjoyed a little bit of accuracy recently too.

...

I'm looking for things to occupy myself with the 120 jumps before I can even think about high performance canopy flight. Anything I can work on?

...

tl;dr I need stuff to occupy my next 100 or so jumps

Couple more things to think about. Riding the plane to altitude and doing a hop and pop from there is more flight time for less pack jobs and in most places, it's more efficient flight time to money.

You're going to learn the most about how the parachute works if you have people to fly around with so find a friend that likes doing hop and pops (Wendy mentioned CRW, yeah... that stuff Smile... but it can also just be flying around relative.) That's gonna help you learn a bunch about how the canopy works and you still get to land it.

Swooping, like a few other disciplines doesn't have a method for "cheating" (wind tunnel) your way to advanced skills quickly. You just have to get out there and make the skydives.

I just want to second what Dave said, don't expect to be very good at this till you have another 1000 jumps. For me, swooping was something I have learned along the way as I enjoyed the other aspects of the sport, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way. Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need. So if you want to do it, just commit yourself to that up front and have realistic expectations.

It's not about occupying jumps, canopy control starts now. There has already been a great post on stuff to work on, and I second them with saying the idea is being able to safely land wherever you want, anytime, in any conditions with a very high level of consistency.



edit to add: People acting like jerks is what's wrong with the world and it hurts this sport, jumping the gun and assuming everyone is a troll is a really crappy attitude.


(This post was edited by Fast on Aug 21, 2012, 8:51 AM)


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:18 AM
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Re: [Fast] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping. Don't get me wrong, I admire your wisdom and your input.

Edit: Thanks to everybody in this thread for the advice by the way. Smile


(This post was edited by Quagmirian on Aug 21, 2012, 9:19 AM)


missbrz  (B License)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:27 AM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping. Don't get me wrong, I admire your wisdom and your input.

Edit: Thanks to everybody in this thread for the advice by the way. Smile

No it's really really not. Just like you wouldn't expect a brand new ice skater to be able to do a triple axle nor would you suggest them to even try one. You have to learn how to perfectly skate before even trying a jump. And then start with small jumps and turns before learning how to do the big ones. Same goes for flying a canopy. You need to learn how to do the little things perfectly before even trying the big things.


I really hope you listen the the great advice already listed in this thread to help you get to your goals safely.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:33 AM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping.

Ok, so think back to the first time you drove a car, how did that go? We're you able to keep it between the lines, play with the radio and talk on the phone at the same time? I know I couldn't when I was 16, but I can't count the number of times I did just that yesterday without incident. Think 20 years of dirving experience has anything to do with that?

How about the first time you fucked a chick, how was that? I'll admit that my fist time was pretty pathetic, and am I'm not sure either one of us really had a great time. Again, more recently I can report different results, with the young lady having several good times followed by myself doing the same. Wonder what changed between then and now?

Truth be told, this last post of yours just made you sound like a douche, and probably lost any ounce of good will you had with anyone here.

How arrogant of you to make such a judgement about jump experience when you have no idea what it's like to have said experience. How can you claim to know the importance (or lack thereof) of experience when you yourself have none? That's like claiming that choclate ice cream is better than vanilla ice cream when you have only tried chocolate.

However, in this case, the risk is not a mouthful of ice cream you might not like, it's the possible loss of your independent mobility or your life.

So you don't need experience, and I guess you also don't need the advice of experienced people. Have at it sport, and keep the GoPro rolling so we can all see how awesome you are (or whatever the reality of the case may be).


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #22 of 88 (6958 views)
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Re: [Fast] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Swooping, like a few other disciplines doesn't have a method for "cheating" (wind tunnel) your way to advanced skills quickly. You just have to get out there and make the skydives.

Do you consider ground launch as cheating for swoop? You can have a landing without a jump.Wink


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:52 AM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you consider ground launch as cheating for swoop? You can have a landing without a jump

That's true, but you typically don't get to fly the same set-up and approach as you would with a swoop performed out of an airplane.

Dedicated GL canopies are also not trimmed as steep as swooping canopies, so that would be another difference.

That said, if you had a launch point where you could launch a skydiving canopy, and then fly it to 800/1000ft over the LZ for a swoop, that would be effective swoop practice without a skydive. Even then, it's not a 'cheat' like windtunnel where you can get much more practice per session than you can per jump, even with a GL swoop, it's still only one landing at a time.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:00 AM
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Re: [davelepka] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
How about the first time you fucked a chick, how was that?

+1,000,000

Laugh


buff  (D 30567)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:07 AM
Post #25 of 88 (6926 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping. Don't get me wrong, I admire your wisdom and your input.

Edit: Thanks to everybody in this thread for the advice by the way. Smile

Wow! Shocked
Pulled off the condescending post in most French fashion. No pardon granted dude as your attitude is already in the corner and really is not welcome as it just will get you or someone else hurt or killed.


Can I have number 133 pleaseUnsure


(This post was edited by buff on Aug 21, 2012, 10:28 AM)


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:15 AM
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

The irony of the analogy is that I have never done any of those three things. I didn't expect to be called arrogant because I disliked the attitude of people with more experience than me. All I came to this forum for was advice on what to do on the next 100 or so jumps to make me a great canopy pilot. I didn't ask how to swoop, how quickly to downsize or how many jumps I need. Half the people replying praised me for wanting to be good. The other half hated me for wanting to be as good as them, and gave me the usual 'you're not good enough' speech in one form or another. It's all very well accusing me of acting arrogant, but sometimes it pays for all of us to look in the mirror.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #27 of 88 (2616 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping.

It's a shame you felt the need to post that. It shows exactly the wrong attitude for learning to swoop.

You have to be humble and always ready to admit when you fucked up during this progression, otherwise the ground will come up fast an humble the fuck out of you.

You will make mistakes during this progression (while you are gaining experience). If you are both sensible and lucky you will survive long enough to get good at it but if you try to cut corners like you post above suggests you might then prepare to become very close friends with pain.

I bounced hard (100' from first to last points of impact) doing a 90* turn with a Sabre2 150 and was lucky enough to walk away. It shook me up badly and could possibly be the best thing that could have happened to me. I hope you're that lucky WHEN you hit the ground hard.

There is a lot of theory to learn to be able to swoop well and safely, and then it takes hundreds and hundreds of jumps to apply that theory. That's what people mean by experience.

I was you. I have survived so far. But much more through luck and constantly picking the brains of experienced canopy pilots than my own skill and talent.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The other half hated me for wanting to be as good as them, and gave me the usual 'you're not good enough' speech in one form or another

Sure, that's it. Everyone is trying to keep you down so you don't get as good as them. Can you imagine the effect it would have on my life if a jumper on another continent was to become as good at swooping as I am? Or even better?

I would have to change my name, leave my family, and assume a new identity if that happened. Even then, I'm pretty sure that the shame would dirve me to drink and eventually pull a Hemingway one night in a drunken stupor.

Get over yourself Nancy. Nobody is worried about your success in any way. I don't care if you become the greatest swooper of all time, it's not going to change my life one ounce. The concern is here is about your possible failure, and what that entails. Even then, that wouldn't effect my life either, but I would hate to see it happen to ANOTHER young jumper who it seems just couldn't keep a handle want they think they want.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #29 of 88 (2601 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping.

Hey guy I only have 550 jumps okay. Guess what I am a new jumper too, so I am not patronizing anyone. That's right 3 years in the sport, 500+ jumps, a tandem instructor, and guess what I am a "newer jumper." At least I still consider myself one. I guess it is all in ones perspective. Do the students consider me "experienced?" Well yes, I guess, but I know guys that were jumping before I was even alive. That is "experience" to me. I don't think anyone on this thread said you need X amount of jumps before you swoop. If they did I must have missed it, please excuse me. What was said is that you need to work on your accuracy in the pattern. Now from "experience" I can tell you that USUALLY will take a hundred or maybe even two hundred just get down consistently in all conditions. AggieDave told you the top guys are still constantly refining their accuracy....hmmmm.

Remember that Nick Batsch guy I mentioned? Well he basically started to learn to swoop right after getting his A license. As a student he hit the peas EVERY time though. Are you? I am telling you he is a freak. He has rare, almost uncanny, talent. Do you? Hell I don't know, but what I can tell you is Nick used to wear pads and bounce all over the place when he first started. The guys around here swear he must be made of rubber. If someone with his talent has landed hard several times won't you too? You will and I just pray it isunder a larger parachute. He is the most competetive person I have ever met. Everything from his personality to his body's build is perfect for swooping. Well okay he is smaller so he does have to wear a shit ton of weight when competing, but that is irrelevant. I know I am not like that. I am happy just getting my turf surf on from a relatively conservative 90 degree front riser turn. Of course i don't have the desire to be the world's best like you though.

Listen man, get coaching. Get it from a qualified coach, and take it slow. Trying to rush through the foundation will only end in a high speed impact with the earth. You really got some of the best advice I have ever heard from AggieDave. Take his post, print it out, do what he said, and get to work man. The google picture of the LZ lamenated is brilliant. It will take awhile but it will pay off ten fold if you ever make it to the podium. I would rather see you make it there, then in a wheelchair or worse. It's not about X number of jumps, it is about having the necessary tools in your toolbox to help you survive the most dangerous discipline in our sport. How long will it take to acquire the necessary tools? That depends on how hard you train, and your skill. None of us here know you, so that is what a coach is for. Get with one.

If you do it right, and you have been truly blessed with some amazing skill you MIGHT have the chance to be as good as the guy in this video one day.

http://youtu.be/1OzoB5kwQ3Q


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 21, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #30 of 88 (2581 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The other half hated me for wanting to be as good as them, and gave me the usual 'you're not good enough' speech in one form or another.

The top swoopers want you to out swoop them. Look at Greg Windmiller, he was an accomplished jumper with the Golden Knights when the GKs decided to have a swoop team. Greg and his teammate Chris were sent to coaching with Ian, Tagle and Nick (among a couple of others) and they were all proud of Greg when he got his pro-card and then started earning medals. They were proud of their student and they were proud to have a new friend to compete against, someone to help drive them to refine their skills even further.

However, this sport is littered with the broken remains of young jumpers (in experience, not always age) who wouldn't head advice and wouldn't take any help. The same excuse you said above was given by those same jumpers. The last really obvious example on DZ.com was Sangi, he refused to listen because he had "mad skills" and had the same attitude you have displayed. He's lucky he isn't dead, but he is crippled for life now.

Try the advice in this thread, both kinds of advice that has been given: skills training and attitude training. Accomplishing both of those will take you very far along the path to your skydiving goals. I want to see you have a long jumping career and be a top swooper, but right now it looks like you're headed down the same path Sangi did.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 21, 2012, 11:32 AM
Post #31 of 88 (2579 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
All I came to this forum for was advice on what to do on the next 100 or so jumps to make me a great canopy pilot.

I think AggieDave gave you your task for the next 100 jumps. IMHO it was the best advice I have ever heard given to someone over the internet for free. Usually guys with his "experience" get paid for it.

Wink


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 21, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #32 of 88 (2569 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
All I came to this forum for was advice on what to do on the next 100 or so jumps to make me a great canopy pilot.

I think AggieDave gave you your task for the next 100 jumps. IMHO it was the best advice I have ever heard given to someone over the internet for free. Usually guys with his "experience" get paid for it.

Wink

Thank you.

You're right, this is part of three different learning modules for the Canopy Flight Foundations course I taught and I charged money to attend that course.

The course started by covering the fundamentals of how a canopy flew and why. What the recovery arc is, how it effects non-swoopers and your pattern, how it effects your landing flare and continued on to using that knowledge to build your landing patterns. Then it covered stalls, different kinds of stalls. Then we covered flat turns, since you really had to know stalls to know flat turns and then we covered long spot and strange winds. The long spot and strange winds covered a lot about body position. There was a jump after each module where you would go up on a hop-n-pop and practice the covered material for a landing that was videoed and debriefed.

Although I'm not teaching any courses right now (see the Taking a break thread in Bonfire), there are plenty of other good canopy pilots teaching similar courses. Scott Miller was my go to guy when I was learning, but he's out of the sport right now too. Flight-1 is a good default, those PDFT guys (and gal) are top notch and teach a great course. Nick has a course, Windmiller teaches a course...take the top 20 swoopers from nationals this past year and just about all of them teach a similar course.

The information is out there and easily obtained, it comes down to a willingness to accept the training and finding a coach that you can relate to well enough to learn it.


JackC1

Aug 21, 2012, 11:55 AM
Post #33 of 88 (2566 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So I want to swoop...

Under the BPA there is a qualification called CP1 (canopy piloting grade 1) which is designed to put some kind of rigid training in place for would be swoopers. In order to start training for CP1 (read that as starting high performance landings) you first need a C certificate and that involves having at least 200 jumps plus a B cert, plus a grade 1 in something else.

In reply to:
I've got my B licence stuff to sort out, but I should complete that fairly soon. For people familiar with the BPA system, I also need a grade 1 for my C licence, any ideas? As I said before, I was turned off by FS.

You have 3 choices. FS1, FF1 or IS1. For all practical purposes, an FF1 requires an FS1 before you can start on it. Almost no one does individual style (IS1) anymore but in theory you could get one if you could find someone to grade you for it. That leaves you with your best and realistically your only bet: FS1.

You may not like it but thems the rules and if you want to go forward I am afraid you will have to lump it.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Aug 21, 2012, 12:54 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #34 of 88 (2557 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

More great info for us newer jumpers, Dave.

I really think a cleaned up version of this thread (with the same title) should be a sticky in the CP forum. It is a commonly asked question and the basic info is going to stand the test of time.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 21, 2012, 3:11 PM
Post #35 of 88 (2520 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Thank you.

No problem Dave. Sorry to hear you are taking a break but I can't blame you. You are doing it for the right reasons and no one can hold that against you man. Thanks for trying to help us new guys.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 21, 2012, 3:54 PM
Post #36 of 88 (2510 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

The only thing you need to know about swooping right now is to trust your rears!


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 7:12 PM
Post #37 of 88 (2485 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only thing you need to know about swooping right now is to trust your rears!

Don't forget speed = power = safety.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Aug 21, 2012, 8:40 PM
Post #38 of 88 (2473 views)
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Re: [Remster] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll never forget my first trip to a DZ. After the class I was watching the guys come flying in so cool, I thought I have to do that. That was 1983, they were flying stratoclouds.
I can only imagine how a first timer looks at some cool swoop and thinks the same thing...wow I wanna do that. Now there's a lot higher price to pay, years of jumping and training and some are just too impatient to understand the consequences of rushing it.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 8:55 PM
Post #39 of 88 (2467 views)
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Re: [FB1609] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now there's a lot higher price to pay, years of jumping and training and some are just too impatient to understand the consequences of rushing it.

I think it's partly that and it's partly that it's not always easy to get good advice on when you are rushing it, and what EXACTLY you need to do to recitfy the prblem while still making progress.

"Slow down - you're going to die" is not constructive IMO. Advice like AggieDave has given is VERY constructive, but like I said, not always available at the time it is needed.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:18 PM
Post #40 of 88 (2465 views)
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Re: [DocPop] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"Slow down - you're going to die" is not constructive IMO

Your focusing on the giver, and not the reciever. In this case, the reciever is a guy who posted that he thought the concept of 'experience' was developed for the sole purpose of keeping the newbies down. Do you really think any approach from a 'giver' is going to get through to a guy with that mentality?

There are two sides to every coin, and they each stand an equal chance of being wrong in any situation. In this case, I'm pretty sure I know which side of the coin gets my vote for being the 'problem'.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:32 PM
Post #41 of 88 (2471 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

My comment was meant generally, not specific to this thread.

But yes I agree, the quality of any advice is irrelevant if the intended recipient is unreceptive.


5.samadhi

Aug 22, 2012, 6:09 AM
Post #42 of 88 (2425 views)
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Re: [buff] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping. Don't get me wrong, I admire your wisdom and your input.

Edit: Thanks to everybody in this thread for the advice by the way. Smile

Wow! Shocked
Pulled off the condescending post in most French fashion. No pardon granted dude as your attitude is already in the corner and really is not welcome as it just will get you or someone else hurt or killed.


Can I have number 133 pleaseUnsure
all of your posts are you predicting people's deaths. how do you feel about being such a great contributor to the site?


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 22, 2012, 6:47 AM
Post #43 of 88 (2417 views)
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Re: [DocPop] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"Slow down - you're going to die" is not constructive IMO.

It is the truth that apparently both of us have learned ourselves from lucky ass bounces. I have video of mine I would post if I thought it would do any good for the OP. Mine doesn't sound as bad as yours as I went nowhere near 100 feet but it still was a wake up call that I needed to slow down and learn the foundations properly. AggieDave sent me a PM awhile back with all the information he just gave this guy. Top notch stuff for FREE.

If the poster is serious about being the worlds best one day he will slow down and take the time to learn that "boring" foundation work. If not he will be another Sangi. Constructive or not the truth is the truth. I doubt even Aggie's advice was "constructive" to the OP because from his displayed attitude it seems to most likely fall on deaf ears. It wasn't what he wanted to hear.


melanie91  (C License)

Aug 22, 2012, 7:43 AM
Post #44 of 88 (2396 views)
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Re: [JackC1] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You have 3 choices. FS1, FF1 or IS1. For all practical purposes, an FF1 requires an FS1 before you can start on it. Almost no one does individual style (IS1) anymore but in theory you could get one if you could find someone to grade you for it. That leaves you with your best and realistically your only bet: FS1.

What about CF1??? I would say that's the best option since it's all about canopy skills and awareness.

On a side note, FF1 definitely does not require and FS1 before you start it and I'm pretty sure you can get your FF1 before you have FS1 - it's just that everyone is advised to do FS1 first.... I'm not saying I think it's a good idea do batter in and get FF1 done before FS1 by the way, just saying that I don't think there are any actual rules against it.


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 22, 2012, 8:41 AM
Post #45 of 88 (2380 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the poster is serious about being the worlds best one day he will slow down and take the time to learn that "boring" foundation work.
What have I done that was a rush? What do I need to slow down?


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 22, 2012, 10:47 AM
Post #46 of 88 (2354 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If the poster is serious about being the worlds best one day he will slow down and take the time to learn that "boring" foundation work.
What have I done that was a rush? What do I need to slow down?

Really? Your comment about "experience" and so many jump numbers speaks volumes man.

Listen just like DocPop stated I was you. He was you. Hell I bet even AggieDave was like you at one time. Anyone that swoops by definition is a push the envelope kind of person man. You aren't any different or special......YET. If you want to be, I have already told you what to do. Print out Dave's reply on accuracy in the pattern. Do exactly what he said. Count on doing just that for the next 100-200 jumps before ever thinking about swooping. Build your foundation. You have NO idea how valuable that information he gave you is. People pay for it.

At your experience level you don't know what you don't know man. Read Brian Germain's book the parachute and it's pilot. Get a coach that it is an experienced competetive canopy pilot.

Even if you do all of these things you WILL find yourself in the corner one day. Every canopy pilot does. Will you even recognize it in time? Will you freeze? I did. So did Sangi. There are a ton of guys like Ian, Dave, and so on that will preach wringing the shit out of the large parachutes first. Trust them when they say it will make you a better canopy pilot in the long run. Those guys really do thrive off of competetion. No one will try to hold you back. They actually want to see you succeed. Your current attitude however just shows another statistic in the making.


alexispainchaud  (C 3202)

Aug 22, 2012, 12:01 PM
Post #47 of 88 (2330 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand how pissing off hearing about "experience" can be when you ask a question. I asked about swooping when I had about 250 jumps and I was simply told to fuck off, it's dangerous and I don't have the experience.

I swooped anyway. Looked at people, tried to take it slow, but had to figure it out kinda on my own untill I showed I was worthy of an explanation. This could have gone wrong in sooooooo many ways. And it HAS gone wrong for others. Nowadays, we have Pablo Hernandez coming to give seminars on a yearly basis and the swoop culture has changed, luckily.

Here we have a bunch of patient and dedicated people that are giving a wide range of WHY you should take your time, and HOW you should do it.

To me, this is gold. It's people like that I wish I met.
Many posts here show a great deal of humility even if posters have obviously considerable EXPERIENCE. And this is one thing I hope you can get out of this. Humility is key to survive untill you have "considerable experience". Either that or luck.


JackC1

Aug 22, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #48 of 88 (2329 views)
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Re: [melanie91] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
You have 3 choices. FS1, FF1 or IS1. For all practical purposes, an FF1 requires an FS1 before you can start on it. Almost no one does individual style (IS1) anymore but in theory you could get one if you could find someone to grade you for it. That leaves you with your best and realistically your only bet: FS1.

What about CF1??? I would say that's the best option since it's all about canopy skills and awareness.

On a side note, FF1 definitely does not require and FS1 before you start it and I'm pretty sure you can get your FF1 before you have FS1 - it's just that everyone is advised to do FS1 first.... I'm not saying I think it's a good idea do batter in and get FF1 done before FS1 by the way, just saying that I don't think there are any actual rules against it.

Oops, you're right, you can do a CF1. A lot of instructors like you to have 150-200 jumps before you start though.

As far as FF1 goes, you need to demonstrate the ability to do everything in the FS1 syllabus except the 4 way qualification jump which is why I said for all practical purposes you need an FS1. Again, you're right you don't actually need an FS1 sticker, just 90% of the training.


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 22, 2012, 1:11 PM
Post #49 of 88 (2311 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping. Don't get me wrong, I admire your wisdom and your input.

Edit: Thanks to everybody in this thread for the advice by the way. Smile

Really.... Reaallllyyy....??...?..?

You pick myyyyyy post to act like a jerk. I just don't get it, I mean I essentially came on here defending the fact that up-thread people were being unreasonable in their responses, that you were just a guy who wants to know where to go and what to learn on AND I gave you some helpful things to think about.


Let me say this a little louder... to be GOOD at swooping you NEED LOTS OF FUCKING EXPERIENCE PERIOD. I didn't say you can't start learning till you have lots of experience, I said, don't expect to be very good at it at first, or very quickly, there aren't any shortcuts.

I mean, you're disproving my whole argument that it pays to be nice to people on here and try and help. Shape up. Experience is a word used to describe what those of us have who managed to NOT DIE and not horribly mangle our bodies while having a whole lot of fun. You get that experience by doing.

I generally tell people whatever I want to tell them, they can take it or leave it. That goes in person too if you ask anyone who knows me.

In one sentence you say 'experience' doesn't mean anything, but then you "admire" my wisdom, (which coincidentally, comes from my experience) so which is it.

Really frustrating man.

Go re-read the constructive posts of this thread again, then go make skydives. Get a coach to teach you how to swoop.


As for experienced people trying to "keep everyone else down" I am really getting sick of hearing that. Why on earth would I care how good you are or not. :boggle:

I jump out of planes cause I like the feeling of flying, if you can out swoop me, go right ahead, wtf do I care. I don't even compete.


(This post was edited by Fast on Aug 22, 2012, 1:14 PM)


5.samadhi

Aug 22, 2012, 9:29 PM
Post #50 of 88 (2263 views)
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Re: [Fast] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

^ awesome post Fast!!


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Aug 23, 2012, 6:15 AM
Post #51 of 88 (3389 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping.

Well, heck. Why bother asking then? Just go buy a Velo and start swooping. How hard can it be?

If you want to swoop and survive, first go reread what AggieDave posted. Five or six times. Buy Brian Germain's book. Read it every night. Find a canopy coach and give them lots of money to teach you the finer points. Jump, jump, jump, jump.

And keep the attitude that comes across in the above quote to yourself. Most very experienced jumpers (ie ones who you probably don't like cuz they're just trying to keep you down) will happily find someone else to help once they realize that you have no respect for the years and money they put into learning the things they could teach you.


DivingWombat  (B License)

Aug 23, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #52 of 88 (3370 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there is nothing to add on this thread.
AggieDave explained you more than well how to progress within the next 100-300 jumps. That should be THE answer on your question.
Your post about "experience" and "holding you back" was useless and you put yourself in the corner.

I really hope you will find the right way to progress without the need of a wheelchair.


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 23, 2012, 10:32 AM
Post #53 of 88 (3342 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Reading through this thread, there seems to be a number of people who think I want to be swooping now. It's all very well telling me to listen to advice, but I'm not going to listen to people who won't even read my posts first, sorry. These are very much the reactions I would have expected in a 'look at me I'm really good at swooping' thread. Telling me I'm going to kill myself if I continue jumping a Triathlon 210 doesn't really make sense either.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Aug 23, 2012, 11:55 AM
Post #54 of 88 (3321 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Reading through this thread, there seems to be a number of people who think I want to be swooping now. It's all very well telling me to listen to advice, but I'm not going to listen to people who won't even read my posts first, sorry. These are very much the reactions I would have expected in a 'look at me I'm really good at swooping' thread. Telling me I'm going to kill myself if I continue jumping a Triathlon 210 doesn't really make sense either.

Seriously? First off dude, the subject of this thread that YOU created is "So I want to swoop...". Secondly, you ask in the OP for things to occupy for the next 100 or so jumps. Dave gave a FULL and COMPLETE list of things for you to look into and several posters applauded him and thanked him for it (I missed out...thanks Dave, awesome list). You responded to one of those responses by literally flipping everyone the bird and telling us that "experience needed" is bullshit and that advanced manuevers don't require experience.

And you think that Dave, Dave, Fast, & DocPop are the assholes? Take a fucking chillpill and look in the mirror.

Personally, I'm sitting at about 230 jumps right now. I jump a Sabre2 150. I jumped from full altitude for the first time in two months last weekend. Before that I was only doing low passes because I feel it's selfish to try and work on HP manuvers when there's a sky full of people. I've been to two multiple day coaching courses this year alone, the first in March with Greg Windmiller and the second in July with Jessica Edgeington & Flight-1. The course with Greg literally blew my mind. I learned things that I would never have picked up on using trial and error and I bet he literally saved me a hundred jumps of "figuring it out". Jessica watched me for two (TWO) HP landings and gave me pointers which I'm still working on. She told me to bump up my IP by 20' because my canopy was recovering low. It looked fine to me as I was coming in, but I don't have the EXPERIENCE to properly judge it. I tried it her way the next time and I got a better and CLEANER swoop because I was letting my canopy naturally recover.

In my canopy progression, at the moment the turn isn't even my main concern at this point. Trying to nail down a solid pattern and being able to adjust it based upon wind conditions is hard as shit. Adjusting my turn to base due to a crosswind or stretching/shrinking my downwind because of a tailwind/headwind are more difficult than you can imagine because they are something that requires EXPERIENCE to build a proper sight picture. I know my IP and try to hit it religously, but if something doesn't feel right, I abort. I can perform my 90, get a righteous swoop, and feel awesome as soon as I hit the ground, but I instantly start critiquing myself because of the crappy pattern I may have flown.

Listen, you don't know what you don't know, but we've all been in that position. Take the list Dave gave you, and work on it. I'm in construction management and know how important a strong foundation is when building something down the road.


(This post was edited by hokierower on Aug 23, 2012, 11:59 AM)


trigger  (D 101390)

Aug 23, 2012, 12:00 PM
Post #55 of 88 (3316 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Your a UK jumper. BPA system achieve Canopy Handling 1 then 2.
after that, like others have said seek professional instruction/coaching.
1.No fast track other than around 500+jumps a year mininum.
2.You will make mistakes,just hope you are react approproately and walk away from them, hence coaching.

Don't know where you are but Chris Lynch could help you out here.

Sorry for all the Bold don't flame meBlush


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 24, 2012, 5:48 AM
Post #56 of 88 (3266 views)
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Re: [hokierower] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent post sir, but you are wasting your time.

I have stroked this guys ego (maybe a mistake but I believe in dreams) by telling him he could be the best in the world (his own stated goal) if he takes the time early to build the right foundation, which AggieDave generously gave him.

He chosses not to listen because it isn't what he wants to hear. No one told him he was going to die under his Triathlon, but look at his last post. Explaining that swoopers by nature push the envelope and to take it slow, to him equals "you are going to die."

His bullshit statement about "experience" and people "holding him back" says it all.

I am done wasting my time with him. He will learn, unfortunately probably the HARD way. I just hope he gets it on video. Wink


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 24, 2012, 6:06 PM
Post #57 of 88 (3208 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's unfortunate that I have seen many replies as abrasive, and I'm sorry, I didn't come into this forum to act like an arse. I have no large ego. Nobody is holding me back, and people with true experience really do know better. It's a shame that so many people now believe that I'm one of these reckless young people who will die by downsizing too fast and hooking it in. I apologize for my previous posts but I don't think I made my point properly. Oh well, it's not the end of the world that I didn't win an internet argument.


richardw38  (B License)

Aug 26, 2012, 4:50 PM
Post #58 of 88 (3134 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would highly recommend you search for Sangi in the incidents forum. Watch the links to his videos. After that, drill in to your head that if I take it too fast this WILL happen to me!

http://youtu.be/tF578oSkrKk

http://youtu.be/9YZHpdtQVMw

Wow, I just did a search for Sangi, read a load of posts and watched a couple of videos. Thats pretty damn sobering. I cant imagine what his emotions must be. Getting hurt in this sport, because of an accident is one thing, but ending up a paraplegic because of a silly decision you made must be pretty hard to deal with. His crash video is pretty harsh, 10 seconds from decision to cripple. F*%K!


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 26, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #59 of 88 (3127 views)
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Re: [richardw38] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would highly recommend you search for Sangi in the incidents forum. Watch the links to his videos. After that, drill in to your head that if I take it too fast this WILL happen to me!

http://youtu.be/tF578oSkrKk

http://youtu.be/9YZHpdtQVMw

Wow, I just did a search for Sangi, read a load of posts and watched a couple of videos. Thats pretty damn sobering. I cant imagine what his emotions must be. Getting hurt in this sport, because of an accident is one thing, but ending up a paraplegic because of a silly decision you made must be pretty hard to deal with. His crash video is pretty harsh, 10 seconds from decision to cripple. F*%K!

That is what guys like me are fighting against. Trying to break through those attitudes to prevent this from happening again. If you make it in this sport for very long you'll see this exact same scenario play out more than a few times. Sometimes it is injury, sometimes it is death, never does it end well.


richardw38  (B License)

Aug 26, 2012, 5:19 PM
Post #60 of 88 (3125 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thankfully, and with a certain degree of luck, I made it through my teens/20's doing other "extreme" sports to sufficiently decent level to realize that you can't act like a pro until you aren't trying to act like a pro.

ps thanks for the great post earlier. I'm not really interested in swooping, but they are great tips for canopy flight.


(This post was edited by richardw38 on Aug 26, 2012, 5:21 PM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 26, 2012, 8:03 PM
Post #61 of 88 (3087 views)
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Re: [richardw38] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ps thanks for the great post earlier. I'm not really interested in swooping, but they are great tips for canopy flight.
Quote:


The post Dave gave should be a sticky and should be practiced by every single jumper, whether a potenial future swooper or not. We ALL pilot canopies to survive, and those basic skills he mentioned are essential, swooping or not.


jackjbradford  (C 109070)

Aug 31, 2012, 1:28 AM
Post #62 of 88 (2948 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

On a slightly more practical note...

I'm trying to organise some form of canopy coaching at every BCPA event this year. I already have a flight-1 course booked in at the Hib event in March and I'm hoping to get something lined up for Freshers in November too.

I'll let you know as soon as I open registration for the courses (without sounding creepy, I know who you are Wink)


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Sep 1, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #63 of 88 (2866 views)
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Re: [jackjbradford] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome Jack, I KNOW WHO YOU ARE TOO.


Dean358  (D 28881)

Sep 1, 2012, 4:20 PM
Post #64 of 88 (2827 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGBe-Rh7o4U

(This post was edited by Dean358 on Sep 1, 2012, 4:21 PM)


richardw38  (B License)

Sep 2, 2012, 3:22 AM
Post #65 of 88 (2792 views)
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Re: [Dean358] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

my god thats fricken hilarious!!


shibu  (B 37474)

Oct 12, 2012, 4:36 AM
Post #66 of 88 (2496 views)
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Re: [excaza] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Take some canopy courses.

+1 on this. I just took my first Canopy Control Course & I read a few books & saw a couple of videos on canopy control so I was expecting to just get a better understanding of what I read or saw briefly. I learned alot more than that. Some techniques I had never heard of before (or I had heard of but completely misunderstood). I'm sure I will be busy repeating the new techniques I learned for some time.

Liked it so much I think I am going to take another basic canopy course in the future.


uberchris  (A License)

Oct 12, 2012, 2:28 PM
Post #67 of 88 (2398 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm going to take your post seriously and see where it goes.

You can learn to swoop. It isn't hard and it isn't anything 1,000 jumps won't teach you. Sound like a lot? Well, you can probably cut out about 20 of those jumps with some canopy coaching.

First of all, you have to realize that swooping is 100% about learning to fly the canopy you have to the absolute limits of what that canopy is able to achieve. That doesn't mean yoinking on risers or downsizing too quickly, since that is actually the exact opposite of what an accomplished swooper strives for.

Would you rather be on a Katana 120 and be scary or be on a Sabre2 170 and out swoop the assholes on smaller canopies? Personally I would rather be on the big "slow" canopy and out swoop the others. That shows true skill and understanding. Anyone can go fast on a small canopy, not everyone can swoop the piss out of a bigger canopy. Only a real canopy pilot can do that.

A real canopy pilot understands that the landing pattern is the foundation a swoop is built on. With out accuracy in the pattern, a swoop can not happen consistently. Who wants to be the guy who throws an air-ball sunset pond swoop? Not me, that's for sure! I want to be the guy who goes dirt-water-dirt while tossing a ghostrider blindman.

So you can go get coaching on the canopy you have and be the king of your DZ swoopers or you can downsize too quickly and "walk" with a wheelchair the rest of your life (and have a limp dick because of it). Your choice.

i just took my very first canopy course at chicks rock, not because i thought i should get canopy training, but because i wanted to get my canopy proficiency card........

one day, 4 hop n pops and a day spent with our instructor, and i feel like i have literally been reborn under canopy. EVERYTHING, and i mean EVERYTHING i was doing (except landing and walking away) has been wrong. in my whopping 200ish jumps i was thinking i had it together because lately ive been able to land within a few feet of my target, but with severe and low input on fronts/rears..............

i have been shown a whole new world, and though ive got nothing but time and practice to go (because i suck ass), i had no idea how important the holding, setup, and entering into your downwind/base/final really was at the right altitudes/spots. we were actually shown that you need to swoop, in several stages (at least for our bigger canopies and mild wingloadings) to land efficiently. before this course i really paid no mind to the term "recovery"..... i am unbelievably excited over this new mindframe.

and even though i have a million years of work to do, im actually feeling like im learning how to use my canopy in full flight to stop the vertical altitude loss, plane out, and burn the horizontal before finishing my flare. i cannot WAIT to continue to take canopy courses and do coaching, and i suggest for anyone in the OPs situation or anyone who hasnt actually taken any canopy courses: DO IT!!!!

thanks for your wisdom dave


shibu  (B 37474)

Oct 13, 2012, 3:50 AM
Post #68 of 88 (2329 views)
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Re: [Dean358] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post


Laugh lmao


yakirtosh

Oct 27, 2012, 2:43 PM
Post #69 of 88 (2085 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Yea I don't know.

I completely agree with dave and others but personally i believe you should simply jump normally with one parachute you feel comfortable with, you will need at least 100-150 jumps to even start thinking about swooping. Get to know your canopy, get the feeling for when it stalls, how it acts in high winds, low winds, how fast/slow it turns, play with front/rear risers in high alt to learn the differences. Then you move on and learn to land with your rear risers only, and when you have all that, get a coach that will teach you how to plan your swoop approach, which is normally without turns in the beginning. Simply both front risers down to max to gain speed, rear risers to cover, lean a bit forward and use toggles to break when losing alt and speed during the swoop. You will also have to go through training on how to use your legs properly when landing in high (higher) speed. You can injure yourself (or even die) just by crashing during you swoop.

I dont say Im a pro or know any better, but I have my own experience, and I was rather quick in learning than many others who prefer to take it easy and do swoops and alike only after 1000+ jumps. I was downsizing rather quick from 190 to 170 to 150 to 130 to 110 to currently JVX 99 all within 400 jumps! I consider myself lucky to have some of my best friends to be instructors at my home dropzone and helping me out to improve everyday and with every jump. I'm a curious mother-effer and I don't try new things unless I've asked all possible questions to the right people about my next move. So with a bit over 500 jumps im swooping the shh out of my JVX 99.

It def is a very dangerous sport all in all but the most dangerous approach within this sport is obviously the swoop. And to be honest I have more respect to people taking it easy and learning over the long way than people like me who need to have quick progress ;-)

Anyhow, the best way to go for you is def just jump as many times as possible, learn your canopy and when you feel safe underneath it, continue progressively. Plus, your canopy may not be suitable for swooping, you may wanna look for a canopy that has easy input to front and back risers and that 'dives' properly. Practically you can make any canopy dive into a swoop but you will need a hell-of-alota power in your arms for some of the canopies out there.

Also, take a good look in the fatalities section on dropzone.com, just so you see how many people die taking a wrong approach in attempt to swoop (hard landing deaths). Its very easy to watch all these pros on youtube doing their swoops. Just remember they all have above 2000 jumps and know what they're doing :-) You need only one stupid mistake and a split second to give up your life...

Good luck to you!!

Cheers,
Yako


yakirtosh

Oct 27, 2012, 3:08 PM
Post #70 of 88 (2073 views)
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Re: [yakirtosh] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Just seen the last couple posts haha. Shit, didn't know the guy was actually complaining about telling him he needs experience Cool

It's ALL about EXPERIENCE. Experience is what defines your knowledge about a particular subject. We're not talking about soccer and basketball. This is the most dangerous sport there is!

Like the others said, nobody cares if you out swoop them, its not a competition. It's about having fun and surviving in order to jump again.

Go ahead, buy a comp velo and swoop it, let's see if you survive it.

All these people here are trying to help you and are very concerned about you surviving. You better take their advices.

Good luck!


IMGR2  (D 21089)

Oct 27, 2012, 3:12 PM
Post #71 of 88 (2070 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread is awesome. Classic DZ.com.

Quag, you can choose swooping as a discipline right now and there is no problem with that.

No one and I repeat NO ONE will learn to swoop from another person typing you a freaking book to read.

I personally have learn from the school of hard knocks. No coaches when I started skydiving.

All I have to say is learn absolutely everything a canopy can do, this includes crew.

And go find you someone near you that will help you and talk you through things you are not familiar with.

You will never learn the dynamics of swooping from the internet.


trigger  (D 101390)

Oct 27, 2012, 3:37 PM
Post #72 of 88 (2063 views)
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Re: [yakirtosh] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Swooping the shit out of a JVX 99 at 500jumps
Video please


craigbey  (C 31991)

Oct 27, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #73 of 88 (2045 views)
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Re: [yakirtosh] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was downsizing rather quick from 190 to 170 to 150 to 130 to 110 to currently JVX 99 all within 400 jumps!

... next post ...

Quote:
It's ALL about EXPERIENCE. Experience is what defines your knowledge about a particular subject. We're not talking about soccer and basketball. This is the most dangerous sport there is!


Good stuff.


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Oct 27, 2012, 6:10 PM
Post #74 of 88 (2027 views)
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Re: [craigbey] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone please delete this thread.


OneJumpWally  (A License)

Oct 28, 2012, 8:19 AM
Post #75 of 88 (1963 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

HEY GUYS ! I just did my first tandem and I want to be the best swooper in the world. Any advise from the guys with thousands of jumps?....Experience ? that's bullshit. You guys are just afraid I will become the most badass swooper in the universe and destroy you all....
Dude. I sincerely hope you SLOW DOWN so you don't die. I'm pretty sure the majority of fatalities skydiving now are swooping accidents Crazy


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Oct 28, 2012, 5:09 PM
Post #76 of 88 (2283 views)
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Re: [OneJumpWally] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dude. I sincerely hope you SLOW DOWN so you don't die. I'm pretty sure the majority of fatalities skydiving now are swooping accidents Crazy
Thanks, I'll take that onboard and go back on the static line.

Someone please delete this thread, please.


(This post was edited by Quagmirian on Oct 28, 2012, 5:11 PM)


uberchris  (A License)

Oct 28, 2012, 6:37 PM
Post #77 of 88 (2263 views)
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Re: [yakirtosh] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yea I don't know.

I completely agree with dave and others but personally i believe you should simply jump normally with one parachute you feel comfortable with, you will need at least 100-150 jumps to even start thinking about swooping. Get to know your canopy, get the feeling for when it stalls, how it acts in high winds, low winds, how fast/slow it turns, play with front/rear risers in high alt to learn the differences. Then you move on and learn to land with your rear risers only, and when you have all that, get a coach that will teach you how to plan your swoop approach, which is normally without turns in the beginning. Simply both front risers down to max to gain speed, rear risers to cover, lean a bit forward and use toggles to break when losing alt and speed during the swoop. You will also have to go through training on how to use your legs properly when landing in high (higher) speed. You can injure yourself (or even die) just by crashing during you swoop.

I dont say Im a pro or know any better, but I have my own experience, and I was rather quick in learning than many others who prefer to take it easy and do swoops and alike only after 1000+ jumps. I was downsizing rather quick from 190 to 170 to 150 to 130 to 110 to currently JVX 99 all within 400 jumps! I consider myself lucky to have some of my best friends to be instructors at my home dropzone and helping me out to improve everyday and with every jump. I'm a curious mother-effer and I don't try new things unless I've asked all possible questions to the right people about my next move. So with a bit over 500 jumps im swooping the shh out of my JVX 99.

It def is a very dangerous sport all in all but the most dangerous approach within this sport is obviously the swoop. And to be honest I have more respect to people taking it easy and learning over the long way than people like me who need to have quick progress ;-)

Anyhow, the best way to go for you is def just jump as many times as possible, learn your canopy and when you feel safe underneath it, continue progressively. Plus, your canopy may not be suitable for swooping, you may wanna look for a canopy that has easy input to front and back risers and that 'dives' properly. Practically you can make any canopy dive into a swoop but you will need a hell-of-alota power in your arms for some of the canopies out there.

Also, take a good look in the fatalities section on dropzone.com, just so you see how many people die taking a wrong approach in attempt to swoop (hard landing deaths). Its very easy to watch all these pros on youtube doing their swoops. Just remember they all have above 2000 jumps and know what they're doing :-) You need only one stupid mistake and a split second to give up your life...

Good luck to you!!

Cheers,
Yako

weird, my recent canopy coach said youd be a complete idiot to land on rear risers alone, and that you should never do it. whats the reason that you would have to do that? if your brakes are fucked you should have chopped your canopy


DocPop  (C License)

Oct 28, 2012, 6:47 PM
Post #78 of 88 (2257 views)
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Re: [uberchris] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
weird, my recent canopy coach said youd be a complete idiot to land on rear risers alone, and that you should never do it. whats the reason that you would have to do that? if your brakes are fucked you should have chopped your canopy

It is perfectly reasonable to land on rears alone and it is one of the skills that some coaches recommend for getting to know all about your canopy.

It's not a mandatory skill, but what would YOU do if a toggle came off at 600' AGL?


IMGR2  (D 21089)

Oct 28, 2012, 6:58 PM
Post #79 of 88 (2255 views)
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Re: [DocPop] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

I land using only rears about once every 100 jumps to stay proficient. It is an excellent skill to learn in case of an emergency.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 28, 2012, 8:31 PM
Post #80 of 88 (2235 views)
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Re: [uberchris] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
weird, my recent canopy coach said youd be a complete idiot to land on rear risers alone, and that you should never do it. whats the reason that you would have to do that? if your brakes are fucked you should have chopped your canopy

I'm not sure you got the advice quite right, or your coach isn't doing you any favors.

If you are proficient at landing with your rears, and your canopy is otherwise uncomprimised, then cutting away would be a bad idea and an un-neccesary risk.

That said, proficiency takes a long time to develop, and should not be intermingled with an emergency situation or a comprimised canopy.

I spent a week or two last month landing with only my rears, just for fun. I kept my toggles in my hands, but was able to shut my canopy down enough with the rears that I never needed to transition to the toggles. That said, I have 1000+ jumps on my current canopy and have used my rears on 90% of those.

Now about your coach, he was talking to a guy with a shade over 200 jumps, and it might not be in your best interest to land with your rears in an emergency situation. Additionally, if your brakes are comprimised, there's a chance that the canopy isn't going to fly 'as-normal' in full flight, and that would only complicate landing on rears.

There are very few 'universal truths in skydiving, but one of them is this - anytime you get advice about anything, do the following - consider the source, consider the intended recipient, and consider the circumstances and then remember that changing any one of three might make the advice null and void.


RichLees

Oct 29, 2012, 7:17 AM
Post #81 of 88 (2190 views)
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Re: [IMGR2] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you were taking them downwind, Dave


Fast  (D 28237)

Oct 29, 2012, 8:08 AM
Post #82 of 88 (2175 views)
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Re: [davelepka] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
weird, my recent canopy coach said youd be a complete idiot to land on rear risers alone, and that you should never do it. whats the reason that you would have to do that? if your brakes are fucked you should have chopped your canopy

I'm not sure you got the advice quite right, or your coach isn't doing you any favors.

If you are proficient at landing with your rears, and your canopy is otherwise uncomprimised, then cutting away would be a bad idea and an un-neccesary risk.

That said, proficiency takes a long time to develop, and should not be intermingled with an emergency situation or a comprimised canopy.

Agreed. I land on rears only every now and then just cause it amuses me that it's possible (i.e. it's fun). It always confuses newer jumpers though "why didn't you use your toggles, why didn't you die." It's all about understanding how the parachute works :)

It's a good skill to have and if I was assured of landing on DZ I would not cut away from a broken brake line/stuck toggle. If it was likely that I had to land off, I prolly would. That's subject to the fact that I don't like landing in weird places on a velocity with no brakes when I can't be sure of a nice place to slide.


cpuck  (C License)

Oct 29, 2012, 8:30 AM
Post #83 of 88 (2163 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

The first guy swooping in that video was Brady Kane. One of the best and safest swoopers I have ever known. He died swooping two years ago. I miss him everyday. Be safe, this shit is no joke.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 29, 2012, 3:09 PM
Post #84 of 88 (2091 views)
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Re: [cpuck] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The first guy swooping in that video was Brady Kane. One of the best and safest swoopers I have ever known. He died swooping two years ago. I miss him everyday. Be safe, this shit is no joke.

Ya I know. I have only been in the sport for a wink over 3 years and all I have to do is think of the great ones that we have lost in that short time. Kane, Emily, Tagle, Peter G, and so on. If those guys can get dead so can I, very easily. I never met Brady, but heard only good things about him. Sorry for your loss.


uberchris  (A License)

Oct 29, 2012, 4:51 PM
Post #85 of 88 (2071 views)
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Re: [DocPop] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

i suppose i do see your guys point......

i think what my coach was getting at was that with low expeirence (me), landing with rears could be more dangerous because the stall point occurs much quicker and with less input...........

but i understand where you guys are coming from with being prepared for when the shit hits the fan.

question - i have lost a toggle on a slider down BASE jump and landed uneventfully with a combination of rears and one toggle...........would you do the same with a skydive canopy or would you use just your rears?


(This post was edited by uberchris on Oct 29, 2012, 4:55 PM)


inkogneetow  (D License)

Jan 25, 2013, 12:28 AM
Post #86 of 88 (1664 views)
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Re: [uberchris] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

When you pull on a control line (toggle/brake) you pull down just the tail of the canopy whereas when you pull on a rear riser you are pulling down all of your C and D lines on that side. Each one will affect the flight of the canopy in different ways. You may have gotten away with it on a large docile BASE canopy but you may not on a skydiving canopy. Better to just use rears.

BASE jumping with under 300 jumps? I won't comment on that.


wasatchrider

Feb 6, 2013, 8:20 PM
Post #87 of 88 (1418 views)
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Re: [inkogneetow] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When you pull on a control line (toggle/brake) you pull down just the tail of the canopy whereas when you pull on a rear riser you are pulling down all of your C and D lines on that side. Each one will affect the flight of the canopy in different ways. You may have gotten away with it on a large docile BASE canopy but you may not on a skydiving canopy. Better to just use rears.

BASE jumping with under 300 jumps? I won't comment on that.

I will chris you are one crazy mofo...


jackjbradford  (C 109070)

Feb 28, 2013, 3:10 PM
Post #88 of 88 (1193 views)
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Re: [jackjbradford] So I want to swoop... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On a slightly more practical note...

I'm trying to organise some form of canopy coaching at every BCPA event this year. I already have a flight-1 course booked in at the Hib event in March and I'm hoping to get something lined up for Freshers in November too.

I'll let you know as soon as I open registration for the courses (without sounding creepy, I know who you are Wink)

As promised, registration for the Brian Vacher Course next week:
http://www.bcpa.org.uk/events/16--BCPA-Hib

Hope to see you there Phil



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