Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview

 

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Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 23, 2012, 8:23 AM
Post #76 of 106 (899 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

>do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes

Sure I do - a glance to check if someone is behind me, as long as I have time. But I'm not going to take my eyes off what is in front of me - because that's where I'm going, that's where the hazards are, and that's where my responsibility lies.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #77 of 106 (897 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ?

No, that's what the wave-off is for.

Again, if everyone remained focused down and out while tracking, looking for the low man and giving the right of way, the wave-off is enough.

If you spend your time doing an extended, quality scan of the area below you, you're going to see anyone who is there. If they wave off, you're going to see that too.

You're a pilot, correct? You know the techniques for an effective traffic scan, slice the sky up into sections and scan one section at a time. The reason is that without that methodology, people scan too fast and too much area at once, and tend to miss things.

This is the same. You need to spend all of your track scannig the area where you are going if you want it to be effective. We're only talking about 5 or 6 seconds here, so you can see that a quality scan of any area will take the entire time. Trying to split that up between belly, and back tracking, or even looking up and down, will just reduce the effectiveness of the scan.


piisfish

Aug 23, 2012, 8:31 AM
Post #78 of 106 (892 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[ If you spend your time doing an extended, quality scan of the area below you, you're going to see anyone who is there. If they wave off, you're going to see that too.

You're a pilot, correct? You know the techniques for an effective traffic scan, slice the sky up into sections and scan one section at a time. The reason is that without that methodology, people scan too fast and too much area at once, and tend to miss things.
the person on the mentionned vuideo seems to NOT have seen the low man while inefficiently "scanning" down and sides...


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #79 of 106 (879 views)
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Re: Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

I still have problems with this dumping blindly and hoping the person above is doing their job properly.

There are two possible ways to have a freefall-canopy collision:

1. You fall into the canopy below you
2. You dump into the person above you

It seems sensible to me to take responsibility for avoiding both scenarios rather than trusting someone else to take care of half your risk for you.


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #80 of 106 (876 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's like approaching a traffic hazard at 60mph - and then turning around and staring out the back window in case someone is tailgating you before you try to stop.

There is no need for an analogy. Especially analogies that are not at all applicable.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 23, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #81 of 106 (873 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Video shows a tracking dive that gets messy, then he tracks off. Then he's clearly looking around. Then he barrel rolls. .

I might have seen the same video (not publicly linked). On the one I saw, the guy has an uninterrupted period of 10 seconds where his head (as evidenced by the camera) is facing generally down and forward, before he glances to both sides, followed by just under 2 seconds spent doing a barrel roll, before facing down again and having a very near miss with someone who had just pulled slightly ahead and a fair bit lower than him.

The question is, would 2 extra seconds of looking forward and down have helped him spot the conflict and reduce the risk? Or that after 10 seconds of not seeing any potential conflict, 2 more wouldn't have mattered?

The video can be used as a good example of what you can fail to see while of doing a barrel roll. (Yet was the guy below stupid presumably not to roll? Or should he have stupidly done a roll, just because someone above might be stupid and not see his waveoff, perhaps due to stupidly doing a roll? It's messy.)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #82 of 106 (871 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Video shows a tracking dive that gets messy, then he tracks off. Then he's clearly looking around. Then he barrel rolls. .

I might have seen the same video (not publicly linked). On the one I saw, the guy has an uninterrupted period of 10 seconds where his head (as evidenced by the camera) is facing generally down and forward, before he glances to both sides, followed by just under 2 seconds spent doing a barrel roll, before facing down again and having a very near miss with someone who had just pulled slightly ahead and a fair bit lower than him.

The question is, would 2 extra seconds of looking forward and down have helped him spot the conflict and reduce the risk? Or that after 10 seconds of not seeing any potential conflict, 2 more wouldn't have mattered?

The video can be used as a good example of what you can fail to see while of doing a barrel roll. (Yet was the guy below stupid presumably not to roll? Or should he have stupidly done a roll, just because someone above might be stupid and not see his waveoff, perhaps due to stupidly doing a roll? It's messy.)

Alternatively, the video (from your description) could be used as evidence for the fact that if the low man had done a barrel roll he might not have dumped in the other guy's face.


JackC1

Aug 23, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #83 of 106 (869 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems sensible to me to take responsibility for avoiding both scenarios rather than trusting someone else to take care of half your risk for you.

I tend to agree with you. If a barrel roll would help with that, I do it. But I don't think it does help, so I don't barrel roll during a track.

Virtually all of the people you are likely to collide with are in your group. After tracking away they should all be behind you. If they're not, you've fucked up.

As far as I can see, the best way you can make sure you don't go tracking over someone else (or them tracking over you) is to make sure you know where they've all gone at break off. This involves being aware of where they go as you turn and start to track, so you can make sure you're heading for clear airspace. If you track into someone then, it's because your exit separation sucked and you've tracked into the next group.

But the conventional wisdom here seems to be to turn and burn, don't look back, and worry about them being in your airspace at pull time.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 23, 2012, 9:36 AM
Post #84 of 106 (867 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

>Alternatively, the video (from your description) could be used as evidence for the fact
>that if the low man had done a barrel roll he might not have dumped in the other guy's
>face.

Given that there have now been several cases of people doing barrel rolls who then dump in other people's faces I don't think that's supportable.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 23, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #85 of 106 (857 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

And obviously (as you would know), we'd really want to dig deeper and find out not just how many times people barrel roll and then dump in someone's face, but also look at the frequencies and ratios for various situations, for having someone above or not, barrelling or not, seeing someone above or not (if there is someone) if one has barrelled, taking effective action or not (if there is someone above and one has spotted them), etc.

But still your point is acknowledged -- You are saying that a quick barrel roll can be ineffective in avoiding the very thing it purports to avoid -- at least based on incidents you know of.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 10:17 AM
Post #86 of 106 (855 views)
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Re: Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

So at the moment we don't really have an effective way to deal with spearation in larger groups.

I'll take my risks under canopy and stay away from the bigways!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 23, 2012, 10:56 AM
Post #87 of 106 (838 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

>So at the moment we don't really have an effective way to deal with spearation
>in larger groups.

We had an effective way to deal with breakoff separation on the 400-way. It was one of the safer dives I've been on. So they exist and they work even for a lot of people - they are just often not implemented.

>I'll take my risks under canopy and stay away from the bigways!

That's definitely another option.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #88 of 106 (828 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyWe had an effective way to deal with breakoff separation on the 400-way. It was one of the safer dives I've been on.
Is that a reflection of the caliber of person on that jump?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 23, 2012, 11:35 AM
Post #89 of 106 (820 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

>Is that a reflection of the caliber of person on that jump?

I think it was due to three things:

1) The caliber of the people

2) The amount of organization and planning that went into breakoff altitudes and keys, tracking teams, tracking team trajectories, deployment altitudes, after-opening rules, traffic patterns and landing area assignments

3) The knowledge that if you didn't do all the above you'd get cut.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #90 of 106 (815 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Your point #2 is probably a huge one.

Most of the dirt dives I hear involve nothing more than "break at x,000feet".

Not much in the way of "what if's" being covered.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 23, 2012, 4:23 PM
Post #91 of 106 (786 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ?

No, that's what the wave-off is for.

Again, if everyone remained focused down and out while tracking, looking for the low man and giving the right of way, the wave-off is enough.

If you spend your time doing an extended, quality scan of the area below you, you're going to see anyone who is there. If they wave off, you're going to see that too.

You're a pilot, correct? You know the techniques for an effective traffic scan, slice the sky up into sections and scan one section at a time. The reason is that without that methodology, people scan too fast and too much area at once, and tend to miss things.

This is the same. You need to spend all of your track scannig the area where you are going if you want it to be effective. We're only talking about 5 or 6 seconds here, so you can see that a quality scan of any area will take the entire time. Trying to split that up between belly, and back tracking, or even looking up and down, will just reduce the effectiveness of the scan.


Why are we arguing the merits of doing a barrel roll while tracking? The question isn't whether it's a good idea. The question is whether it's necessary. In most cases it simply isn't.

Unless a jumper has severely restricted rotational movement of the head, there simply isn't a need to barrel roll to see directly overhead.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 23, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #92 of 106 (770 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So at the moment we don't really have an effective way to deal with spearation in larger groups.

I'll take my risks under canopy and stay away from the bigways!

We have had an effective way of dealing with separation on big ways from at least the 70s that I know of.

At break off you turn 180 from the center of the formation and track until your assigned pull altitude. As Bill said it has worked for loads up to 400 people. The safety comes from everyone doing the same thing. Its when people try to be creative that things go to shit.

Sparky


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 24, 2012, 12:59 PM
Post #93 of 106 (725 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your point #2 is probably a huge one.

Most of the dirt dives I hear involve nothing more than "break at x,000feet".

Not much in the way of "what if's" being covered.
So, did you ask?
Or, did you just go with the flow?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 24, 2012, 1:02 PM
Post #94 of 106 (722 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So at the moment we don't really have an effective way to deal with spearation in larger groups.

Yes, we do. It's just that some refuse to "get it".


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 24, 2012, 1:05 PM
Post #95 of 106 (719 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I still have problems with this dumping blindly and hoping the person above is doing their job properly.
We all would have that problem, yes. However, dumping blindly is not what we are talking about here.


diverds  (D 17797)

Aug 25, 2012, 6:21 AM
Post #96 of 106 (671 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me that barrel rolling is one of many tools we have at our disposal. There are cases where it may not be appropriate. But to make some of the blanket statements for or against it that I have read in this thread seem equally foolish. Maybe the circumstances at hand and the ability of the jumper both need to be taken into account when deciding whether or not to pull it out of the bag.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 25, 2012, 6:58 AM
Post #97 of 106 (664 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes

Sure I do - a glance to check if someone is behind me, as long as I have time. But I'm not going to take my eyes off what is in front of me - because that's where I'm going, that's where the hazards are, and that's where my responsibility lies.

And since the low person has right of way, it makes sense to be looking for him/her rather than in the opposite direction.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 25, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #98 of 106 (656 views)
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Re: [kallend] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And since the low person has right of way, it makes sense to be looking for him/her rather than in the opposite direction.

If you 100% trust the person above you (who should not be there in the first place).


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 25, 2012, 8:05 AM
Post #99 of 106 (645 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

And since the low person has right of way, it makes sense to be looking for him/her rather than in the opposite direction.

If you 100% trust the person above you (who should not be there in the first place).

You always have the option of not jumping with people you don't trust.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 25, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #100 of 106 (632 views)
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Re: [kallend] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

If you 100% trust the person above you (who should not be there in the first place).

You always have the option of not jumping with people you don't trust.

An option I exercise all the time.


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