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Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview

 

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jinlee  (D License)

Aug 16, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #26 of 106 (905 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Talk about thread drift.

And what what it reveals is glaring, low-time jumpers are saying that dumping at 2,000 is the better option. Not a good trend me thinks.

I've done it, don't like doing it and what I really don't like is how it can become a comfortable bad habit.

Plan the dive, dive the plan, and if that can't be done, rethink the group your jumping with.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 16, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #27 of 106 (896 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

>If I see someone above, i will make sure he receives a huge waveoff and doesn't
>collide me on opening

I recommend you do that on every jump, not just a jump where you see someone above you. A huge waveoff only helps no matter what your situation.


MotherGoose

Aug 16, 2012, 10:38 AM
Post #28 of 106 (874 views)
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Re: [jinlee] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Talk about thread drift.

And what what it reveals is glaring, low-time jumpers are saying that dumping at 2,000 is the better option. Not a good trend me thinks.

I've done it, don't like doing it and what I really don't like is how it can become a comfortable bad habit.

Plan the dive, dive the plan, and if that can't be done, rethink the group your jumping with.

On the contrary, my experience has always been the old-school lifers are the ones that like to suck it low especially on larger dives.

Also, if everyone were to carefully select people they jumped with - skydiving in large groups wouldn't exist.

If you don't want to pull lower then ask for a higher break-off. If you're in a large group and break-off is established at 4500 ft, then it doesn't make much sense to be locked in at a pull altitude of 3500 ft. Taking into account a decent track separation then a flare to reduce forward speed, its no wonder some people are opening in traffic at 3500 ft.

Back to the topic.... I would like to add my insignificant vote to the "no barrel roll" group. Strong track, look left, look right, huge wave off and pull.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Aug 16, 2012, 12:26 PM
Post #29 of 106 (854 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems in my experience that belly and free fliers have different opinions, like Catholics & Protestants about this. Free flyers seem to be rather adept at it and always emphasize doing one on the tracking dives I go on with them. On the other hand, bigway friends, including veterans of the world record 400 Way are dead set against it. As I'm a belly flier, I don't do it. I do track like hell, looking from side to side - and below. If I'm in the air with a lot of people, or if things have gone to hell, I'll track straight through 3 grand before I even stop & wave off. I don't want to miss somebody below me because I was on MY back.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 16, 2012, 12:33 PM
Post #30 of 106 (851 views)
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Re: [tbrown] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Free flyers seem to be rather adept at it and always emphasize doing one on the tracking dives I go on with them.

see, I think they aren't more or less adept actually.

I do think back tracking on breakoff from FF is critical to avoid corking

but going to your back during the flat track portion of any dive is just an incorrect carryover from the breakoff process

since the flat track portion is at RW speeds and orientations, then I'd go with the RW experts regardless of the dive type earlier - at breakoff from a FF dive, I listen to the FF experts


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 16, 2012, 12:33 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 16, 2012, 12:57 PM
Post #31 of 106 (839 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
since the flat track portion is at RW speeds and orientations, then I'd go with the RW experts regardless of the dive type earlier - at breakoff from a FF dive, I listen to the FF experts

No more call we have a winner. You can't compare appels with oranges. Tongue

Sparky


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 16, 2012, 1:19 PM
Post #32 of 106 (829 views)
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Re: Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me that if you trust everyone 100% to take care of looking out for people below them then the system works and you should never have to look up.

The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

As with most things in skydiving, there is rarely one simple answer and things do go to shit. Part of the Skydive Radio interview that sparked this thread involved a 9-way hybrid that went to shit.

I am not one to pull low, but I would rather suck it down a bit to get out from under someone - but to do that I would need to know they are there.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 16, 2012, 2:01 PM
Post #33 of 106 (813 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

This is ill advised. First off, it's dependant on the jumper being able to perform those transitions cleanly and reliably during an imporant part of the jump. The better idea is to maintain the focus below, where the current danger is coming from. If everyone follows this plan, then the person above you will be watching for you and will divert when they see you below. If some people are watching below, and others are switching to back tracks, then the possibility of missing someone goes way up.

If EVERYONE follows the plan, and EVRYONE breaks off with suffcient altitude to track, watches where they're going, and gives a godo wave off, you won't have these problems.

Quote:
Part of the Skydive Radio interview that sparked this thread involved a 9-way hybrid that went to shit.

This is the real cause of the collision. Hybrid jumps are vastly different in that when they go to shit, you have some freeflyers who are freeflying, and some belly fliers who are belly flying. Even with a solid break off plan in the case of a funnel, you still end up with a great deal of vertical seperation between the two groups. Carry that over into flat/steep tracks and short/long tracks, you can see that people could be opening anywhere and everywhere.

Even when a hybrid works, and the break-off is clean (with the hangers dropping off and the stingers leaving on one wave, and the RW breaking off in another) it's not your 'normal' break off. I would question the organizers for not having a 'funnel contingency plan' and for putting a jumper with 150 jumps on a 9-way hybrid, with it's inceased complexity on the bottom end.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 16, 2012, 2:02 PM
Post #34 of 106 (813 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

what are you wearing? a neckbrace?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 16, 2012, 2:03 PM
Post #35 of 106 (813 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
then a glance above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

I can see it now:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, eat a pilot chute.

Yeah, thats just great.........not!!!.

Seriously. Think about it. You are advocating something that flies in the face of proven safe practice.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Aug 16, 2012, 2:35 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 16, 2012, 4:38 PM
Post #36 of 106 (793 views)
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Re: Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

The arguments continue, sort of along these lines:

"99% of the time you don't need to check above!"
"Yes, but you do 1% of the time"
"Yes but plan for everyone doing things right"
"Yes, but I'm talking about the 1% when they don't"
"But you are stupid to get into that 1% situation!"
"Yes, but what if you do!"
"But you shouldn't."
"But what if you do?"

... and on it goes.

(As for contingency plans on hybrid jumps, I agree with Dave that they are more complex than they appear. The sarcastic comment is, "Jeez, its a freefly jump. It's FUN. It's not like RW where people are all serious and stuff. It's just freefly, having fun, why do you need rules?" Frown)


(This post was edited by pchapman on Aug 16, 2012, 4:39 PM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Aug 16, 2012, 7:20 PM
Post #37 of 106 (752 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

To 5. Samadhi - My Safire opens in about 400 feet, so if I pull at 2K I am saddled out by 1500. Yes, thats low, but IMO its better than a freefall/canopy collision. And I am not advocating anyone pull any lower than they are comfortable, just stating what I would do (and have done on occasion).
I had a near miss a while back where a jumper went past me in FF as my canopy was inflating (I think about 40 feet away maybe closer, maybe further but I could see the look on his face so it was too damn close).
As for my decision altitude, its pretty much when the canopy inflates if I am that low - anything other than a couple of line twists is going to be gone pretty damn quickly.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 16, 2012, 7:22 PM
Post #38 of 106 (751 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull


This will get someone killed and for sure will get you axed from a big way. (100 way or larger)

Break offs are staged in waves to give you both vertical and horizontal separation. This method has been proven with loads up to 400. When you get your key to break, you turn to a heading of 180 degrees from the center of the formation and flat track to your assigned pull altitude. If you are on the outside wave of a really big formation you may start break off as high as 7,500 feet. You will have to hold your track down to 2,500 or maybe even 2,000 feet. The next wave will start their track 3 to 4 seconds later. If they are able to track over the top of you I would say you lack the sills to be on the load.

Sparky


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 16, 2012, 7:59 PM
Post #39 of 106 (743 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

Just to add another reason that this is not a great plan, consider the amount of time you have between break off and pull.

I would say that 10 to 12 seconds is a good window to work with. Figure that it will take 2 to 4 seconds (on average) to turn and accelerate up to top tracking speed. Figure it takes 2 to 4 seconds to flare, slow down, and pull. That leaves you with 4 or 5 seconds of honest, top-speed tracking.

Even if you're an ace tracker, and can transition to back-track and belly with zero loss in speed or angle, you're still trying to split up a very narrow window of time and build in scans of two seperate areas. What would you expect the quality of those scans to be? What about after you factor in 1/2 of a second or each transition?

As mentioned before, the real answer is much further up the 'chain of command'. Solid planning, with a conservative and effective break-off altitude with the jumpers experience and pull altitudes in mind, good altitude awareness to stick to that plan, and solid tracking skills with eyes down and forward, followed by a strong wave-off and pull.


.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Aug 17, 2012, 2:13 AM
Post #40 of 106 (707 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Replying to Davelepka because his post is the last in the thread.

Between all the 'you should(n't) do all this while tracking' stuff, I kinda miss 'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'. If you know where everyone else on your group is, you get fewer surprises at pull time.
Am I missing something?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 17, 2012, 2:44 AM
Post #41 of 106 (712 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I kinda miss 'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'. If you know where everyone else on your group is, you get fewer surprises at pull time.

That is part of the scanning you are doing during your track, just no one has actually articulated it.

It is easy to see people when a normal breakoff takes place, it can be a little more difficult if there has been a funnel and people are at different levels.

Good scanning means the "blind spot" is quite small, and that is when a good track and wave off becomes important, as well as everyone on the load following good break off protocol.


tomireland  (B License)

Aug 17, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #42 of 106 (685 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive done it a few times. I mainly do FF jumps. I havent done a RW jump in ages.

For me it depends on the levels of hte other jumpers. If i can see everyone then there is no need to go on my back. If im jumping with someone who is a lot lighter and corks up out the group then i do like to know where they are on break off. In this circumstance its pic a radial thats clear. Get a little speed roll on back try to spot lighter person. roll on belly and carry on tracking while watching between legs and checking either side.

The back track is early enough in the brake off that noone should be pulling then. Im also in a black and green jumpsuit and rig. Someone tracking above me may not see me where as it may be easier for me to see them against a blue sky back drop and can try to help by adjsuting my radial a little.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 17, 2012, 6:46 AM
Post #43 of 106 (676 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

This argument is ridiculous at its face.

The question isn't whether its safe to perform a barrel roll while tracking for separation, it's whether it's necessary - which it's not.

Unless you have a severe flexibility problem, you should be able to clear the air above you just fine by looking over both shoulders.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 17, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #44 of 106 (656 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'.

In all fairness, between your feet isn't where you should be looking... Scanning side to side (which will give you a view of whats above and to the side with peripheral vision) and below is where you should.


5.samadhi

Aug 17, 2012, 8:11 AM
Post #45 of 106 (647 views)
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Re: [Remster] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'.

In all fairness, between your feet isn't where you should be looking... Scanning side to side (which will give you a view of whats above and to the side with peripheral vision) and below is where you should.
it depends on your AoA and whether you are tracking with good form (chin tucked to chest) - you can actually see quite a bit looking down your legs backwards when you are tracking for max distance while preserving vertical altitude.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 17, 2012, 10:40 AM
Post #46 of 106 (607 views)
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Re: Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say this is a lost cause….people are going to try and justify their actions regardless if they know what they are talking about. The bottom line is when in a track you should be looking where you are going not where you have been…..that is where the danger is.

Sparky


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 17, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #47 of 106 (600 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would say this is a lost cause….people are going to try and justify their actions regardless if they know what they are talking about. The bottom line is when in a track you should be looking where you are going not where you have been…..that is where the danger is.

Sparky

This is the crux of it and is worth repeating.

No one drives on the highway using the rear view mirror to navigate.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 17, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #48 of 106 (590 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'.

In all fairness, between your feet isn't where you should be looking... Scanning side to side (which will give you a view of whats above and to the side with peripheral vision) and below is where you should.
it depends on your AoA and whether you are tracking with good form (chin tucked to chest) - you can actually see quite a bit looking down your legs backwards when you are tracking for max distance while preserving vertical altitude.

Of course you can see a lot backwards. But why the hell is it important to see who is back there, as opposed to who's closer to you?


(This post was edited by Remster on Aug 17, 2012, 11:00 AM)


JackC1

Aug 17, 2012, 12:19 PM
Post #49 of 106 (570 views)
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Re: [Remster] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Of course you can see a lot backwards. But why the hell is it important to see who is back there, as opposed to who's closer to you?


I want to see where everyone else is going. I had some twat follow me once. The one place people don't look is forward and up.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Aug 17, 2012, 12:22 PM)


nickfrey

Aug 17, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #50 of 106 (540 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Of course you can see a lot backwards. But why the hell is it important to see who is back there, as opposed to who's closer to you?


I want to see where everyone else is going. I had some twat follow me once. The one place people don't look is forward and up.

So here's my almost 500 jump newbie take on this... The person above, in front and tracking well is of little threat to you. You pull, he keeps going past you. And to a lesser extent someone tracking 100 or 200 feet directly above you is also of little threat. You effectively hit the breaks either when you flare or when your deploying canopy slows you down if you pull in a track. It's the person above and behind (the one you would see between your legs) that is of the most danger to collide with you when you deploy.


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