Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview

 


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Aug 15, 2012, 7:40 AM
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Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview Can't Post

I know this has been discussed here several times, and the consensus among experienced folks seemed to be, IIRC, that it was a bad idea.

On a recent Skydive Radio podcast, They discussed a canopy collision at Summerfest, and the 150-ish jump person involved said that she would be sure to, "barrel roll before pulling in the future". Show guest, Rook Nelson and host, Dave Schwartz seemed to agree that this was a good idea.

I agree with posters on the earlier discussion, who said that this was not an effective solution, and could even cause extra problems because of the difficulty of maintaining tracking speed and holding a heading, especially for lower-experienced jumpers.

What say you, unwashed DZ.com masses ?

Kevin K.


piisfish

Aug 15, 2012, 7:44 AM
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In reply to:
I agree with posters on the earlier discussion, who said that this was not an effective solution, and could even cause extra problems because of the difficulty of maintaining tracking speed and holding a heading, especially for lower-experienced jumpers.

What say you, unwashed DZ.com masses ?.
I say if a barrel roll during tracking is a problem for you, you have no business on the jump where you are asked to perform one.


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 15, 2012, 7:54 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I agree with posters on the earlier discussion, who said that this was not an effective solution, and could even cause extra problems because of the difficulty of maintaining tracking speed and holding a heading, especially for lower-experienced jumpers.

What say you, unwashed DZ.com masses ?.
I say if a barrel roll during tracking is a problem for you, you have no business on the jump where you are asked to perform one.


Ever had a big way organizer ask you TO do one?

There's probably a good reason they don't...Wink


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:23 AM
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What kind of jump was it, the one with the collision?

My personal view, after seeing a lot of the previous discussions is this:

For normal jumps, whether belly or freefly, there is no need for a barrel roll because the dive and trackoff are designed not to require it. This is for normal jumps where you have to be able to trust that everyone else is following the same game plan, and carrying out their responsibilities properly.

But when (for whatever reason) you end up in a shit show and can't trust others with your life, then a barrel roll may help in avoiding a midair, a benefit that may outweigh the loss of tracking distance & altitude.

I don't know for sure, but I'd think the barrel roll would typically be done towards the end of the track, so it is not like a small error in heading will make a large difference in final position.

One does end up spending a little less time looking in the normal direction (e.g., down & forward in bellyfly), in order to briefly scan a wider arc (e.g., above).

If you are willing to pull lower than others, that can even mean that no tracking distance is lost. Where others are starting to pull, there's time for a roll, as long as you don't mind going lower. And that's easy these days, given how high people pull.

So: I never barrel roll... except in those few instances where I think the situation is dangerous enough for me to think it safer to do so.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Aug 15, 2012, 8:25 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:23 AM
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It's a terrible idea for the reasons you stated, trouble maintaining heading and track angle through the barrel roll.

The other idea is that you're not going to see much on a barrel roll. You'll get a 'flash' of the sky as you complete the roll, not enough to scan the area and asses the situation.

The rule in skydiving is that the low jumper has the right of way. With that in mind, that's where you're attention should be focused, the area below you. During your track, that's where you're going, and that's where you should be looking.

When pull time comes up, and you have been watching the area below you during your track, you can glance over your shoulder, or just go with a good wave off. That's the procedure, that's how it works.

The way you make it work is by 'learning' to track properly. Jumpers need to go beyond the AFF or A license training, and really learn to do a good, fast, flat track, where they can get up to speed quickly and have control over their heading.

The next thing you do is establish a sensible break off altitude with your pull altitude and the size of the skydive in mind. Bigger jumps need a higher breakof, and you need to stick to it.

Think about it people - imagine if EVERYONE was a strong tracker, and broke off 2000 ft before their pull altitude (for a 5 or 6 way max) do you think there would be any problems with seperation?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 15, 2012, 8:26 AM
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If you do it for fun at the end of a freefly dive no problem.

If you do it to "clear your airspace" before pulling on a bigway expect to get cut from the next dive and replaced with someone with better judgment.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:44 AM
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 The earlier discussion covered it pretty well, I thought.

You need to be scanning for the low man who is about to dump in your face. And he should be waving off, and you have no business being right above him when he does.

None of what you can see if you are on your back scanning the stratosphere.


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:21 AM
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In reply to:

For normal jumps, whether belly or freefly, there is no need for a barrel roll because the dive and trackoff are designed not to require it. This is for normal jumps where you have to be able to trust that everyone else is following the same game plan, and carrying out their responsibilities properly.

But when (for whatever reason) you end up in a shit show and can't trust others with your life, then a barrel roll may help in avoiding a midair, a benefit that may outweigh the loss of tracking distance & altitude.

I kinda agree with this, but it depends on skill level. As a higher experienced person who often is organizing less experienced people, it helps for me. I can't always keep track of everyone during the skydive (in a blind spot while maintaing a formation, leave early for some wierd reason, etc etc), but my overall tracking capabilities generally let me out track everyone. Sometimes I just get that scary feeling that someone is somehow above me, then I roll and check.

My circumstances are different than most though, I lead a lot of tracking dives on my back (and can roll on heading), can track almost as fast on my back, and can roll a wingsuit to backfly on heading. It's just a different skill set I am working from.

It's not something I would ever do on a real bigway cause I expect those people to know what they are doing or not be on the jump. But when jumping with low experience people who I can't be sure will see a wave off, or me below them at pull time if they somehow have managed to keep up with me, I gotta look out for myself.


(This post was edited by Fast on Aug 15, 2012, 9:22 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:33 AM
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In reply to:
It's not something I would ever do on a real bigway cause I expect those people to know what they are doing or not be on the jump.

It doesn't matter if its a big way or a two or four way, the same applies. If they are inexperienced, they need to be properly briefed, and carefully watched until they can demonstrate the requisite skills to complete every aspect of the dive safely.

As the experienced organiser, these drills are part of what you should be instilling in them, and they should not be progressing on to anything bigger until they have demonstrated their skills consistently.

Its why it is a good idea to have small groups jumping together on a regular basis, rather than chopping and changing the loads around with new individuals.

Easier to do on a small DZ operation though.....


dthames  (B 37674)

Aug 15, 2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
What kind of jump was it, the one with the collision?

As I recall from the interview, it was a 6 or 8 way hybrid that did not come together correctly. The original break off plan was not possible and there was not secondary plan.

The two jumpers did not pull at the same altitude but one sniveled a long way, putting her on the level with the other jumper.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:42 AM
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this topic comes up more and more. Is it because we back track away from head down dives at the BEGINNING of the breakoff? (and thus people think it's appropriate at the end when everyone should be doing a normal track by then.....) - serious question.


I'm hearing more and more people talk about clearing with a barrel roll. I, personally, don't think it's a good idea 99% of the time. Seems that the evolution of the sport continues to generate a lot of good new ideas and some bad ideas at the same time. Here's a place where experienced jumpers can train this ahead of time and touch on during safety day briefings.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:47 AM
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In reply to:
If you do it for fun at the end of a freefly dive no problem.

Backtrack away at the end of the relative portion of the dive to keep the fall rate transition more gradual (avoids corking). Roll to belly during the back track and finish on a normal track.

No one has ever said to me barrel roll at the end of the track, just back track on breakoff. (Now I'm hearing mixed discussions from newer and more experienced jumps - but not the pure belly folks, just the FFers and those that do both)

the back track is for safety at breakoff, not for fun, really. or so I've been taught.

Would be nice to have some of the more experienced FF'ers confirm or deny this here.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:50 AM
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In reply to:
It's just a different skill set I am working from.

though likely true for you, how many others will also claim this also?

(Actually, if I get that creepy feeling someone might just be above me, I don't roll, I just check over the shoulder a little longer than my normal and really exaggerate the wave off. I really wonder just how big a blind spot from a traditional airspace check there is. Seems that we can see quite a lot unless we have neck issues.)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 15, 2012, 11:51 AM)


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 15, 2012, 12:09 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
It's not something I would ever do on a real bigway cause I expect those people to know what they are doing or not be on the jump.

It doesn't matter if its a big way or a two or four way, the same applies. If they are inexperienced, they need to be properly briefed, and carefully watched until they can demonstrate the requisite skills to complete every aspect of the dive safely.

As the experienced organiser, these drills are part of what you should be instilling in them, and they should not be progressing on to anything bigger until they have demonstrated their skills consistently.

Its why it is a good idea to have small groups jumping together on a regular basis, rather than chopping and changing the loads around with new individuals.

Easier to do on a small DZ operation though.....

You're mixing theory with what really happens. I try to avoid skydives like this, but there is only so much you can do and when they are gonna do it with or without, generally it helps to give it some direction.

Quote:
though likely true for you, how many others will also claim this also?
Yeah who knows, inability judge one's own level of performance and all. Seems pretty rampant right?

Edit to add: To clarify some, I mean, I would say I would find myself in this situation a couple of times a season at most where I am wondering if someone might be above me or not.

Generally on things like speed stars where they funnel and people are everywhere and it's still only 8k. Who knows where everyone is gonna end up on that stuff.


(This post was edited by Fast on Aug 15, 2012, 12:16 PM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Aug 15, 2012, 12:20 PM
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Most people I see these days pull at 3500 or thereabouts - would it not be a bit safer to track farther and take it lower if you are not sure about your air being clear?
I have no problem pulling at 2K, and can be pretty darn certain everyone else on the dive will have deployed by then - on the other hand I am not certain I could maintain my speed and heading while barrel rolling (although I have never tried it to see).
And if you did barrel roll and happen to see someone above you, arent you just going to have to suck it down anyways?


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Aug 15, 2012, 1:06 PM
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In reply to:
Think about it people - imagine if EVERYONE was a strong tracker, and broke off 2000 ft before their pull altitude (for a 5 or 6 way max) do you think there would be any problems with seperation?

[smartass] Yes, the separation from the other groups in the load[/smartass] TongueAngelic


curmudgeon

Aug 15, 2012, 2:44 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

To those who barrel roll....what do you do if you see someone above you? You've already, in most cases, interupted your track and heading....do you resume tracking and barrel roll again? What do you do with this information then if someone is still above you? Learning to track efficiently may not be as 'cool' as barrel rolling on the gopro....but I would argue that it is a better use of your altitude.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 15, 2012, 3:44 PM
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In reply to:
To those who barrel roll.....what do you do if you see someone above you

An awkward issue indeed.

You may not have much time to track much further, or track at a new angle, or take it much lower... but the options are still better than having pulled instead.

There is the argument against rolling that maybe someone caught up with you because you wasted some of your track barrel rolling. That's possible, but usually they shouldn't have been on your radial, making it a dangerous situation. And if they were coming up on you, they probably should have stopped short or pulled higher.

(It would be awkward in a barrel roll if you glimpse someone behind and above you, but quite likely you don't have enough time in the roll to confirm their forward speed and whether they were about to dump. There may not be a danger, but what one saw then encourages one to take it lower than desirable before pulling. That is a problem with the roll.)

Having a good track and making as much distance as possible is indeed nice.


jrjny  (A License)

Aug 15, 2012, 5:41 PM
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The one time I did it I ended up out of control and open at 1500ft. Jump 28 maybe.

Track hard, look over shoulder, nice big wave-off.

best,

Jeff


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:13 PM
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In reply to:
The one time I did it I ended up out of control and open at 1500ft. Jump 28 maybe.

Track hard, look over shoulder, nice big wave-off.

best,

Jeff

Probably the best response so far.

Sparky


piisfish

Aug 16, 2012, 1:27 AM
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In reply to:
To those who barrel roll....what do you do if you see someone above you? You've already, in most cases, interupted your track and heading....do you resume tracking and barrel roll again? What do you do with this information then if someone is still above you? Learning to track efficiently may not be as 'cool' as barrel rolling on the gopro....but I would argue that it is a better use of your altitude[/reply][shocked][shocked]as you say, learn to track efficiently.. if you need to stop to barrel roll, you do have a problem indeed.

If I see someone above, i will make sure he receives a huge waveoff and doesn't collide me on opening


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 16, 2012, 1:32 AM
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he receives a huge waveoff and doesn't collide me on opening
In reply to:

By waiting for him to dump first???.


piisfish

Aug 16, 2012, 1:34 AM
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if you have someone right above you, will you dump in his face ? or try some avoidance by tracking even further or a bit lower ?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 16, 2012, 1:59 AM
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Quote:
if you have someone right above you, will you dump in his face ? or try some avoidance by tracking even further or a bit lower ?

I always track the furthest and open lower than anyone else, on every RW jump I do if I can't account for everyone else on the load. Usually dumping at 2 grand.

Anyone above me at that point is going to eat my pilot chute, and then face a bit of wrath on the ground......I will definitely think twice about jumping with that person again, until they can demonstate use of a brain...

Breakoff protocol though, is something, that should always be reiterated during every dirt dive,

BTW I don't advocate anyone else going low, I'm comfortable doing so though.


5.samadhi

Aug 16, 2012, 7:31 AM
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In reply to:
Most people I see these days pull at 3500 or thereabouts - would it not be a bit safer to track farther and take it lower if you are not sure about your air being clear?
I have no problem pulling at 2K, and can be pretty darn certain everyone else on the dive will have deployed by then - on the other hand I am not certain I could maintain my speed and heading while barrel rolling (although I have never tried it to see).
And if you did barrel roll and happen to see someone above you, arent you just going to have to suck it down anyways?
if you pull at 2k when are you in the saddle by? What is your decision altitude? That seems to be cutting it a little close unless your safire tends to open fast. I pulled in a wingsuit with a sabre1 from 2k and I am usually fully in the saddle by 1,500. Pretty low by most standards to be assessing your canopy whether you're going to keep it or not. Not something that I'd think is a good idea.


jinlee  (D License)

Aug 16, 2012, 9:33 AM
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Talk about thread drift.

And what what it reveals is glaring, low-time jumpers are saying that dumping at 2,000 is the better option. Not a good trend me thinks.

I've done it, don't like doing it and what I really don't like is how it can become a comfortable bad habit.

Plan the dive, dive the plan, and if that can't be done, rethink the group your jumping with.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 16, 2012, 9:43 AM
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>If I see someone above, i will make sure he receives a huge waveoff and doesn't
>collide me on opening

I recommend you do that on every jump, not just a jump where you see someone above you. A huge waveoff only helps no matter what your situation.


MotherGoose

Aug 16, 2012, 10:38 AM
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In reply to:
Talk about thread drift.

And what what it reveals is glaring, low-time jumpers are saying that dumping at 2,000 is the better option. Not a good trend me thinks.

I've done it, don't like doing it and what I really don't like is how it can become a comfortable bad habit.

Plan the dive, dive the plan, and if that can't be done, rethink the group your jumping with.

On the contrary, my experience has always been the old-school lifers are the ones that like to suck it low especially on larger dives.

Also, if everyone were to carefully select people they jumped with - skydiving in large groups wouldn't exist.

If you don't want to pull lower then ask for a higher break-off. If you're in a large group and break-off is established at 4500 ft, then it doesn't make much sense to be locked in at a pull altitude of 3500 ft. Taking into account a decent track separation then a flare to reduce forward speed, its no wonder some people are opening in traffic at 3500 ft.

Back to the topic.... I would like to add my insignificant vote to the "no barrel roll" group. Strong track, look left, look right, huge wave off and pull.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Aug 16, 2012, 12:26 PM
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Seems in my experience that belly and free fliers have different opinions, like Catholics & Protestants about this. Free flyers seem to be rather adept at it and always emphasize doing one on the tracking dives I go on with them. On the other hand, bigway friends, including veterans of the world record 400 Way are dead set against it. As I'm a belly flier, I don't do it. I do track like hell, looking from side to side - and below. If I'm in the air with a lot of people, or if things have gone to hell, I'll track straight through 3 grand before I even stop & wave off. I don't want to miss somebody below me because I was on MY back.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 16, 2012, 12:33 PM
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In reply to:
Free flyers seem to be rather adept at it and always emphasize doing one on the tracking dives I go on with them.

see, I think they aren't more or less adept actually.

I do think back tracking on breakoff from FF is critical to avoid corking

but going to your back during the flat track portion of any dive is just an incorrect carryover from the breakoff process

since the flat track portion is at RW speeds and orientations, then I'd go with the RW experts regardless of the dive type earlier - at breakoff from a FF dive, I listen to the FF experts


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 16, 2012, 12:33 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 16, 2012, 12:57 PM
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In reply to:
since the flat track portion is at RW speeds and orientations, then I'd go with the RW experts regardless of the dive type earlier - at breakoff from a FF dive, I listen to the FF experts

No more call we have a winner. You can't compare appels with oranges. Tongue

Sparky


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 16, 2012, 1:19 PM
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It seems to me that if you trust everyone 100% to take care of looking out for people below them then the system works and you should never have to look up.

The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

As with most things in skydiving, there is rarely one simple answer and things do go to shit. Part of the Skydive Radio interview that sparked this thread involved a 9-way hybrid that went to shit.

I am not one to pull low, but I would rather suck it down a bit to get out from under someone - but to do that I would need to know they are there.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 16, 2012, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

This is ill advised. First off, it's dependant on the jumper being able to perform those transitions cleanly and reliably during an imporant part of the jump. The better idea is to maintain the focus below, where the current danger is coming from. If everyone follows this plan, then the person above you will be watching for you and will divert when they see you below. If some people are watching below, and others are switching to back tracks, then the possibility of missing someone goes way up.

If EVERYONE follows the plan, and EVRYONE breaks off with suffcient altitude to track, watches where they're going, and gives a godo wave off, you won't have these problems.

Quote:
Part of the Skydive Radio interview that sparked this thread involved a 9-way hybrid that went to shit.

This is the real cause of the collision. Hybrid jumps are vastly different in that when they go to shit, you have some freeflyers who are freeflying, and some belly fliers who are belly flying. Even with a solid break off plan in the case of a funnel, you still end up with a great deal of vertical seperation between the two groups. Carry that over into flat/steep tracks and short/long tracks, you can see that people could be opening anywhere and everywhere.

Even when a hybrid works, and the break-off is clean (with the hangers dropping off and the stingers leaving on one wave, and the RW breaking off in another) it's not your 'normal' break off. I would question the organizers for not having a 'funnel contingency plan' and for putting a jumper with 150 jumps on a 9-way hybrid, with it's inceased complexity on the bottom end.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 16, 2012, 2:02 PM
Post #34 of 106 (941 views)
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what are you wearing? a neckbrace?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 16, 2012, 2:03 PM
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In reply to:
then a glance above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

I can see it now:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, eat a pilot chute.

Yeah, thats just great.........not!!!.

Seriously. Think about it. You are advocating something that flies in the face of proven safe practice.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Aug 16, 2012, 2:35 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 16, 2012, 4:38 PM
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Re: Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

The arguments continue, sort of along these lines:

"99% of the time you don't need to check above!"
"Yes, but you do 1% of the time"
"Yes but plan for everyone doing things right"
"Yes, but I'm talking about the 1% when they don't"
"But you are stupid to get into that 1% situation!"
"Yes, but what if you do!"
"But you shouldn't."
"But what if you do?"

... and on it goes.

(As for contingency plans on hybrid jumps, I agree with Dave that they are more complex than they appear. The sarcastic comment is, "Jeez, its a freefly jump. It's FUN. It's not like RW where people are all serious and stuff. It's just freefly, having fun, why do you need rules?" Frown)


(This post was edited by pchapman on Aug 16, 2012, 4:39 PM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Aug 16, 2012, 7:20 PM
Post #37 of 106 (880 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

To 5. Samadhi - My Safire opens in about 400 feet, so if I pull at 2K I am saddled out by 1500. Yes, thats low, but IMO its better than a freefall/canopy collision. And I am not advocating anyone pull any lower than they are comfortable, just stating what I would do (and have done on occasion).
I had a near miss a while back where a jumper went past me in FF as my canopy was inflating (I think about 40 feet away maybe closer, maybe further but I could see the look on his face so it was too damn close).
As for my decision altitude, its pretty much when the canopy inflates if I am that low - anything other than a couple of line twists is going to be gone pretty damn quickly.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 16, 2012, 7:22 PM
Post #38 of 106 (879 views)
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In reply to:
- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull


This will get someone killed and for sure will get you axed from a big way. (100 way or larger)

Break offs are staged in waves to give you both vertical and horizontal separation. This method has been proven with loads up to 400. When you get your key to break, you turn to a heading of 180 degrees from the center of the formation and flat track to your assigned pull altitude. If you are on the outside wave of a really big formation you may start break off as high as 7,500 feet. You will have to hold your track down to 2,500 or maybe even 2,000 feet. The next wave will start their track 3 to 4 seconds later. If they are able to track over the top of you I would say you lack the sills to be on the load.

Sparky


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 16, 2012, 7:59 PM
Post #39 of 106 (871 views)
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Quote:
The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

- check below
- flip to a back track
- check above
- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

Just to add another reason that this is not a great plan, consider the amount of time you have between break off and pull.

I would say that 10 to 12 seconds is a good window to work with. Figure that it will take 2 to 4 seconds (on average) to turn and accelerate up to top tracking speed. Figure it takes 2 to 4 seconds to flare, slow down, and pull. That leaves you with 4 or 5 seconds of honest, top-speed tracking.

Even if you're an ace tracker, and can transition to back-track and belly with zero loss in speed or angle, you're still trying to split up a very narrow window of time and build in scans of two seperate areas. What would you expect the quality of those scans to be? What about after you factor in 1/2 of a second or each transition?

As mentioned before, the real answer is much further up the 'chain of command'. Solid planning, with a conservative and effective break-off altitude with the jumpers experience and pull altitudes in mind, good altitude awareness to stick to that plan, and solid tracking skills with eyes down and forward, followed by a strong wave-off and pull.


.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Aug 17, 2012, 2:13 AM
Post #40 of 106 (835 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Replying to Davelepka because his post is the last in the thread.

Between all the 'you should(n't) do all this while tracking' stuff, I kinda miss 'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'. If you know where everyone else on your group is, you get fewer surprises at pull time.
Am I missing something?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 17, 2012, 2:44 AM
Post #41 of 106 (840 views)
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In reply to:
I kinda miss 'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'. If you know where everyone else on your group is, you get fewer surprises at pull time.

That is part of the scanning you are doing during your track, just no one has actually articulated it.

It is easy to see people when a normal breakoff takes place, it can be a little more difficult if there has been a funnel and people are at different levels.

Good scanning means the "blind spot" is quite small, and that is when a good track and wave off becomes important, as well as everyone on the load following good break off protocol.


tomireland  (B License)

Aug 17, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #42 of 106 (813 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive done it a few times. I mainly do FF jumps. I havent done a RW jump in ages.

For me it depends on the levels of hte other jumpers. If i can see everyone then there is no need to go on my back. If im jumping with someone who is a lot lighter and corks up out the group then i do like to know where they are on break off. In this circumstance its pic a radial thats clear. Get a little speed roll on back try to spot lighter person. roll on belly and carry on tracking while watching between legs and checking either side.

The back track is early enough in the brake off that noone should be pulling then. Im also in a black and green jumpsuit and rig. Someone tracking above me may not see me where as it may be easier for me to see them against a blue sky back drop and can try to help by adjsuting my radial a little.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 17, 2012, 6:46 AM
Post #43 of 106 (804 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

This argument is ridiculous at its face.

The question isn't whether its safe to perform a barrel roll while tracking for separation, it's whether it's necessary - which it's not.

Unless you have a severe flexibility problem, you should be able to clear the air above you just fine by looking over both shoulders.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 17, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #44 of 106 (784 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'.

In all fairness, between your feet isn't where you should be looking... Scanning side to side (which will give you a view of whats above and to the side with peripheral vision) and below is where you should.


5.samadhi

Aug 17, 2012, 8:11 AM
Post #45 of 106 (775 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'.

In all fairness, between your feet isn't where you should be looking... Scanning side to side (which will give you a view of whats above and to the side with peripheral vision) and below is where you should.
it depends on your AoA and whether you are tracking with good form (chin tucked to chest) - you can actually see quite a bit looking down your legs backwards when you are tracking for max distance while preserving vertical altitude.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 17, 2012, 10:40 AM
Post #46 of 106 (735 views)
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Re: Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say this is a lost cause.people are going to try and justify their actions regardless if they know what they are talking about. The bottom line is when in a track you should be looking where you are going not where you have been..that is where the danger is.

Sparky


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 17, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #47 of 106 (728 views)
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In reply to:
I would say this is a lost cause.people are going to try and justify their actions regardless if they know what they are talking about. The bottom line is when in a track you should be looking where you are going not where you have been..that is where the danger is.

Sparky

This is the crux of it and is worth repeating.

No one drives on the highway using the rear view mirror to navigate.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 17, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #48 of 106 (718 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'.

In all fairness, between your feet isn't where you should be looking... Scanning side to side (which will give you a view of whats above and to the side with peripheral vision) and below is where you should.
it depends on your AoA and whether you are tracking with good form (chin tucked to chest) - you can actually see quite a bit looking down your legs backwards when you are tracking for max distance while preserving vertical altitude.

Of course you can see a lot backwards. But why the hell is it important to see who is back there, as opposed to who's closer to you?


(This post was edited by Remster on Aug 17, 2012, 11:00 AM)


JackC1

Aug 17, 2012, 12:19 PM
Post #49 of 106 (698 views)
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In reply to:
Of course you can see a lot backwards. But why the hell is it important to see who is back there, as opposed to who's closer to you?


I want to see where everyone else is going. I had some twat follow me once. The one place people don't look is forward and up.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Aug 17, 2012, 12:22 PM)


nickfrey

Aug 17, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #50 of 106 (668 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Of course you can see a lot backwards. But why the hell is it important to see who is back there, as opposed to who's closer to you?


I want to see where everyone else is going. I had some twat follow me once. The one place people don't look is forward and up.

So here's my almost 500 jump newbie take on this... The person above, in front and tracking well is of little threat to you. You pull, he keeps going past you. And to a lesser extent someone tracking 100 or 200 feet directly above you is also of little threat. You effectively hit the breaks either when you flare or when your deploying canopy slows you down if you pull in a track. It's the person above and behind (the one you would see between your legs) that is of the most danger to collide with you when you deploy.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 17, 2012, 2:16 PM
Post #51 of 106 (1109 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

>The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance
>above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

>- check below
>- flip to a back track
>- check above
>- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

Happened to my wife once. She was tracking off, and below her was another jumper (one of the organizers actually.) He barrel rolled to look above him, rolled back to his belly - and pulled. He later claimed he never saw her.

That time would have been far better spent getting farther from the center of the formation (and Amy) than it would have been doing a useless barrel roll. He is now a staunch opponent to the barrel roll, partly because of his own experience.


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 17, 2012, 2:49 PM
Post #52 of 106 (1096 views)
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Re: [nickfrey] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's the person above and behind (the one you would see between your legs) that is of the most danger to collide with you when you deploy.

You must have a really steep (bad) track.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 17, 2012, 5:41 PM
Post #53 of 106 (1072 views)
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Re: [Remster] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'.

In all fairness, between your feet isn't where you should be looking... Scanning side to side (which will give you a view of whats above and to the side with peripheral vision) and below is where you should.
it depends on your AoA and whether you are tracking with good form (chin tucked to chest) - you can actually see quite a bit looking down your legs backwards when you are tracking for max distance while preserving vertical altitude.

Of course you can see a lot backwards. But why the hell is it important to see who is back there, as opposed to who's closer to you?

Well, I usually glance back early in the track to confirm that I'm tracking directly away from the center. Then I look where I'm going.


pms07  (D 7571)

Aug 17, 2012, 9:43 PM
Post #54 of 106 (1040 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Replying to Davelepka because his post is the last in the thread.

Between all the 'you should(n't) do all this while tracking' stuff, I kinda miss 'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'. If you know where everyone else on your group is, you get fewer surprises at pull time.
Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing looking at where you are going and the people you could actually track into. Do you focus your attention behind you while driving down the interstate at 90mph?

Look (mostly) in the direction you are traveling and where the greatest risk of collision exists...


JackC1

Aug 18, 2012, 4:05 AM
Post #55 of 106 (1021 views)
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In reply to:
The person above, in front and tracking well is of little threat to you. ... that is of the most danger to collide with you when you deploy.

Two friends of mine are dead because of this.

I'm not saying keep looking back, I'm saying make sure you're tracking away from everyone else early on, look behind, look around, and look where you're going. You cannot be too vigilant at break off.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 18, 2012, 9:30 AM
Post #56 of 106 (979 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance
>above could be a good idea, along the lines of:

>- check below
>- flip to a back track
>- check above
>- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull

Happened to my wife once. She was tracking off, and below her was another jumper (one of the organizers actually.) He barrel rolled to look above him, rolled back to his belly - and pulled. He later claimed he never saw her.

That time would have been far better spent getting farther from the center of the formation (and Amy) than it would have been doing a useless barrel roll. He is now a staunch opponent to the barrel roll, partly because of his own experience.

To play devil's advocate here - your wife did the other option - looked down whicl tracking and still got over the top of the other guy, clearly neither option is a panacea.

I have yet to be convinced by any of the don't roll posts on here.

It seems to me that if there might be someone above - check above before you dump into them. I always treat everyone elsein the air as though they are trying to kill me. A bit like defensive driving.


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 18, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #57 of 106 (976 views)
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A bit like defensive driving...

In reply to:

Yeah, that's why I always power-slide a quick 360 coming down the on-ramp before i merge a freeway.

Sure i COULD just look back and signal my intentions...but I like to use the maddskillz I have that few other drivers possess! Cool

Those less adept behind the wheel may think i'm a nutter - but THEY know zip about driving 'defensively'! Wink


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 18, 2012, 12:34 PM
Post #58 of 106 (967 views)
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In reply to:
A bit like defensive driving...

In reply to:

Yeah, that's why I always power-slide a quick 360 coming down the on-ramp before i merge a freeway.

Sure i COULD just look back and signal my intentions...but I like to use the maddskillz I have that few other drivers possess! Cool

Those less adept behind the wheel may think i'm a nutter - but THEY know zip about driving 'defensively'! Wink

Crazy


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 18, 2012, 4:23 PM
Post #59 of 106 (948 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
A bit like defensive driving...

In reply to:

Yeah, that's why I always power-slide a quick 360 coming down the on-ramp before i merge a freeway.

Sure i COULD just look back and signal my intentions...but I like to use the maddskillz I have that few other drivers possess! Cool

Those less adept behind the wheel may think i'm a nutter - but THEY know zip about driving 'defensively'! Wink

Crazy

You just keep on what you are doing Doc.

Just make sure everyone else on the load is made very aware of YOUR breakoff protocol.

Every time you jump.

Give them a fair chance......


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 18, 2012, 6:20 PM
Post #60 of 106 (931 views)
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In reply to:


You just keep on what you are doing Doc.

Just make sure everyone else on the load is made very aware of YOUR breakoff protocol.

Every time you jump.

Give them a fair chance......

Doesn't apply to me - I only do H&Ps


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 19, 2012, 2:04 AM
Post #61 of 106 (901 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:


You just keep on what you are doing Doc.

Just make sure everyone else on the load is made very aware of YOUR breakoff protocol.

Every time you jump.

Give them a fair chance......

Doesn't apply to me - I only do H&Ps

Thats fine...but then you need to think carefully about giving advice about another aspect of skydiving that run counter to accepted good practice.

There are people out there who make take that advice to heart, and that puts not only themselves, but others in more danger than is necessary.

Long and bitter experience has taught us a few lessons about how to go about things. That is the reason more than a few people tend to disagree with you.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Aug 19, 2012, 6:55 AM
Post #62 of 106 (884 views)
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Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

You guys must suck at tracking if you don't have time to play with a buddy and barrel roll and shit, get a few docks in and pull in clear airspace. I'm fat and I can do it, but I'm also not a old belly guy either.

also I wouldn't call it a barrel roll but a short back track after a long belly track and more for fun than safety.

and I'll add that "barrel rolls" are only useful on dive's that have gone to shit or are never a formation, like a tracking dive.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #63 of 106 (862 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:


You just keep on what you are doing Doc.

Just make sure everyone else on the load is made very aware of YOUR breakoff protocol.

Every time you jump.

Give them a fair chance......

Doesn't apply to me - I only do H&Ps

Thats fine...but then you need to think carefully about giving advice about another aspect of skydiving that run counter to accepted good practice.

There are people out there who make take that advice to heart, and that puts not only themselves, but others in more danger than is necessary.

Long and bitter experience has taught us a few lessons about how to go about things. That is the reason more than a few people tend to disagree with you.

I never intended to give advice in this thread - I was just entering the discussion with my thoughts.

I still have yet to be convinced that not checking above you before you deploy is a good idea. But I guess I am done with this thread.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 19, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #64 of 106 (860 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

 


In reply to:
I still have yet to be convinced that not checking above you before you deploy is a good idea. But I guess I am done with this thread.

I didn't see anybody advocating "not checking above you". You can do a pretty good check by swivelling your neck. Granted there is still a small blind spot, but that is the reason for the good track, and good wave off, and a reason to be checking below so you are not above someone else at pull time.

A barrel roll at pull time is not a good idea.

For someone not intending to give advice, you seem to argue your case for a barrel roll quite strongly, in the face of contrary, and reasonable advice from many people with vast experience and time in the sport.

Many safety practices in the sport have evolved the way they have for good reason, and in some cases are not really negotiable.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #65 of 106 (855 views)
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In reply to:


In reply to:
I still have yet to be convinced that not checking above you before you deploy is a good idea. But I guess I am done with this thread.

I didn't see anybody advocating "not checking above you". You can do a pretty good check by swivelling your neck. Granted there is still a small blind spot, but that is the reason for the good track, and good wave off, and a reason to be checking below so you are not above someone else at pull time.

A barrel roll at pull time is not a good idea.

For someone not intending to give advice, you seem to argue your case for a barrel roll quite strongly, in the face of contrary, and reasonable advice from many people with vast experience and time in the sport.

Many safety practices in the sport have evolved the way they have for good reason, and in some cases are not really negotiable.

There is a difference between having a discussion with point and counter-point and giving advice. I'll state right here that nothing I have said in this thread should be taken as advice.

I was merely trying to understand the reasoning behind the no barrel roll crowd's thoughts.

Clearly this is not one of those non-negotiable safety rules you mention, as there are plenty of people in the yes to barrel rolls camp - including Rook Nelson (for whom I have a lot of respect).

As I said above - if you trust 100% the person above you to have the skill and observation skills not to be above you at pull time then your method could work. But I would rather not dump blindly into a potential collision.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 19, 2012, 5:29 PM
Post #66 of 106 (823 views)
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In reply to:
If you do it to "clear your airspace" before pulling on a bigway expect to get cut from the next dive and replaced with someone with better judgment.

+1


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 19, 2012, 9:35 PM
Post #67 of 106 (787 views)
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>I have yet to be convinced by any of the don't roll posts on here.

That's fine; this is the Internet, and it's generally wise to view all things here with some suspicion. The argument that will convince you is the organizer that tells you "try that again and you're cut." (Or it may not convince you; problem solved in either case.)


livnbored  (B 4076)

Aug 19, 2012, 10:39 PM
Post #68 of 106 (778 views)
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I do not agree with the barrel roll plan. I have unfortunately had the experience of tracking away from a shit show and had someone end up tracking underneath me (we were all off level) and they did a barrel roll, and they were soooo focused on doing their barrel roll that they had no clue I was there.

When they wove off I pitched immediately and got on my rears to open my sabre1 as fast as possible as I knew I could get it open quickly. When we got to the ground he had no clue whatsoever that I was there. Granted, I shouldn't have been above him, but I found a line and tracked that line and he ended up tracking alongside a friend and then breaking off from that which screwed up all the trajectories. Perhaps he was too busy being a hot shot to notice there were other people on the jump. I don't know. But I do not think barrel rolls help people see anything if they're not willing to actually look.


yeyo  (D 32048)

Aug 22, 2012, 3:07 PM
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I think there's a biiig difference between (1)doing a quick barrel roll, and (2)back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of your track just before pull time.
A barrel roll doesn't give you time to really scan the sky above you, and I think its not productive at all.
But if you can maintain your heading and speed while transitioning to back tracking, then you have time to look for people above you.
BTW, I dont do either.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 22, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #70 of 106 (649 views)
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Re: [yeyo] Barrel Roll on Trackoff - Skydive Radio Interview [In reply to] Can't Post

>I think there's a biiig difference between (1)doing a quick barrel roll, and
>(2)back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of your track just before pull time.

I think that back tracking for two seconds while an errant tracker gets under you and pulls could be a bad thing. I saw a recent video where something similar happened; fortunately the canopy missed the jumper.


yeyo  (D 32048)

Aug 22, 2012, 4:35 PM
Post #71 of 106 (637 views)
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In reply to:
>I think there's a biiig difference between (1)doing a quick barrel roll, and
>(2)back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of your track just before pull time.

I think that back tracking for two seconds while an errant tracker gets under you and pulls could be a bad thing. I saw a recent video where something similar happened; fortunately the canopy missed the jumper.

Yes! no doubt, very bad thing!...but you already spent the first 6 seconds of your track looking for those.
I should've said "back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of your track just before pull time, after making sure nobody is in the cone under you".
After all, clearing the space below us is the #1 priority, as in the lower tracker has the right of way, always.
Like I said, I dont barrel roll or back track during break off, but I think the latter could be done safely and effectively.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 23, 2012, 8:06 AM
Post #72 of 106 (588 views)
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>Yes! no doubt, very bad thing!...but you already spent the first 6 seconds of your
>track looking for those. I should've said "back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of
>your track just before pull time, after making sure nobody is in the cone under you".

Right, that's what this guy did. Video shows a tracking dive that gets messy, then he tracks off. Then he's clearly looking around. Then he barrel rolls. Fortunately he only stays on his back for a second, because when he rolls back over, there's a canopy coming his way from beneath him. Had he tracked for two seconds instead there's a good chance he (and the person below him) would have been dead.

To me it makes no sense to look where you have been before deploying. It's like approaching a traffic hazard at 60mph - and then turning around and staring out the back window in case someone is tailgating you before you try to stop.


piisfish

Aug 23, 2012, 8:10 AM
Post #73 of 106 (583 views)
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do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ?


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:17 AM
Post #74 of 106 (580 views)
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In reply to:
do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ?

Of course not! Why would you need mirrors in a car? Crazy


piisfish

Aug 23, 2012, 8:21 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ?

Of course not! Why would you need mirrors in a car? Crazy
for the makeup ? Laugh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 23, 2012, 8:23 AM
Post #76 of 106 (1004 views)
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>do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes

Sure I do - a glance to check if someone is behind me, as long as I have time. But I'm not going to take my eyes off what is in front of me - because that's where I'm going, that's where the hazards are, and that's where my responsibility lies.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #77 of 106 (1002 views)
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Quote:
do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ?

No, that's what the wave-off is for.

Again, if everyone remained focused down and out while tracking, looking for the low man and giving the right of way, the wave-off is enough.

If you spend your time doing an extended, quality scan of the area below you, you're going to see anyone who is there. If they wave off, you're going to see that too.

You're a pilot, correct? You know the techniques for an effective traffic scan, slice the sky up into sections and scan one section at a time. The reason is that without that methodology, people scan too fast and too much area at once, and tend to miss things.

This is the same. You need to spend all of your track scannig the area where you are going if you want it to be effective. We're only talking about 5 or 6 seconds here, so you can see that a quality scan of any area will take the entire time. Trying to split that up between belly, and back tracking, or even looking up and down, will just reduce the effectiveness of the scan.


piisfish

Aug 23, 2012, 8:31 AM
Post #78 of 106 (997 views)
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In reply to:
[ If you spend your time doing an extended, quality scan of the area below you, you're going to see anyone who is there. If they wave off, you're going to see that too.

You're a pilot, correct? You know the techniques for an effective traffic scan, slice the sky up into sections and scan one section at a time. The reason is that without that methodology, people scan too fast and too much area at once, and tend to miss things.
the person on the mentionned vuideo seems to NOT have seen the low man while inefficiently "scanning" down and sides...


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #79 of 106 (984 views)
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I still have problems with this dumping blindly and hoping the person above is doing their job properly.

There are two possible ways to have a freefall-canopy collision:

1. You fall into the canopy below you
2. You dump into the person above you

It seems sensible to me to take responsibility for avoiding both scenarios rather than trusting someone else to take care of half your risk for you.


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #80 of 106 (981 views)
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In reply to:
It's like approaching a traffic hazard at 60mph - and then turning around and staring out the back window in case someone is tailgating you before you try to stop.

There is no need for an analogy. Especially analogies that are not at all applicable.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 23, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #81 of 106 (978 views)
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In reply to:
Video shows a tracking dive that gets messy, then he tracks off. Then he's clearly looking around. Then he barrel rolls. .

I might have seen the same video (not publicly linked). On the one I saw, the guy has an uninterrupted period of 10 seconds where his head (as evidenced by the camera) is facing generally down and forward, before he glances to both sides, followed by just under 2 seconds spent doing a barrel roll, before facing down again and having a very near miss with someone who had just pulled slightly ahead and a fair bit lower than him.

The question is, would 2 extra seconds of looking forward and down have helped him spot the conflict and reduce the risk? Or that after 10 seconds of not seeing any potential conflict, 2 more wouldn't have mattered?

The video can be used as a good example of what you can fail to see while of doing a barrel roll. (Yet was the guy below stupid presumably not to roll? Or should he have stupidly done a roll, just because someone above might be stupid and not see his waveoff, perhaps due to stupidly doing a roll? It's messy.)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #82 of 106 (976 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Video shows a tracking dive that gets messy, then he tracks off. Then he's clearly looking around. Then he barrel rolls. .

I might have seen the same video (not publicly linked). On the one I saw, the guy has an uninterrupted period of 10 seconds where his head (as evidenced by the camera) is facing generally down and forward, before he glances to both sides, followed by just under 2 seconds spent doing a barrel roll, before facing down again and having a very near miss with someone who had just pulled slightly ahead and a fair bit lower than him.

The question is, would 2 extra seconds of looking forward and down have helped him spot the conflict and reduce the risk? Or that after 10 seconds of not seeing any potential conflict, 2 more wouldn't have mattered?

The video can be used as a good example of what you can fail to see while of doing a barrel roll. (Yet was the guy below stupid presumably not to roll? Or should he have stupidly done a roll, just because someone above might be stupid and not see his waveoff, perhaps due to stupidly doing a roll? It's messy.)

Alternatively, the video (from your description) could be used as evidence for the fact that if the low man had done a barrel roll he might not have dumped in the other guy's face.


JackC1

Aug 23, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #83 of 106 (974 views)
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In reply to:
It seems sensible to me to take responsibility for avoiding both scenarios rather than trusting someone else to take care of half your risk for you.

I tend to agree with you. If a barrel roll would help with that, I do it. But I don't think it does help, so I don't barrel roll during a track.

Virtually all of the people you are likely to collide with are in your group. After tracking away they should all be behind you. If they're not, you've fucked up.

As far as I can see, the best way you can make sure you don't go tracking over someone else (or them tracking over you) is to make sure you know where they've all gone at break off. This involves being aware of where they go as you turn and start to track, so you can make sure you're heading for clear airspace. If you track into someone then, it's because your exit separation sucked and you've tracked into the next group.

But the conventional wisdom here seems to be to turn and burn, don't look back, and worry about them being in your airspace at pull time.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 23, 2012, 9:36 AM
Post #84 of 106 (972 views)
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>Alternatively, the video (from your description) could be used as evidence for the fact
>that if the low man had done a barrel roll he might not have dumped in the other guy's
>face.

Given that there have now been several cases of people doing barrel rolls who then dump in other people's faces I don't think that's supportable.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 23, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #85 of 106 (962 views)
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And obviously (as you would know), we'd really want to dig deeper and find out not just how many times people barrel roll and then dump in someone's face, but also look at the frequencies and ratios for various situations, for having someone above or not, barrelling or not, seeing someone above or not (if there is someone) if one has barrelled, taking effective action or not (if there is someone above and one has spotted them), etc.

But still your point is acknowledged -- You are saying that a quick barrel roll can be ineffective in avoiding the very thing it purports to avoid -- at least based on incidents you know of.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 10:17 AM
Post #86 of 106 (960 views)
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So at the moment we don't really have an effective way to deal with spearation in larger groups.

I'll take my risks under canopy and stay away from the bigways!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 23, 2012, 10:56 AM
Post #87 of 106 (943 views)
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>So at the moment we don't really have an effective way to deal with spearation
>in larger groups.

We had an effective way to deal with breakoff separation on the 400-way. It was one of the safer dives I've been on. So they exist and they work even for a lot of people - they are just often not implemented.

>I'll take my risks under canopy and stay away from the bigways!

That's definitely another option.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #88 of 106 (933 views)
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[replyWe had an effective way to deal with breakoff separation on the 400-way. It was one of the safer dives I've been on.
Is that a reflection of the caliber of person on that jump?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 23, 2012, 11:35 AM
Post #89 of 106 (925 views)
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>Is that a reflection of the caliber of person on that jump?

I think it was due to three things:

1) The caliber of the people

2) The amount of organization and planning that went into breakoff altitudes and keys, tracking teams, tracking team trajectories, deployment altitudes, after-opening rules, traffic patterns and landing area assignments

3) The knowledge that if you didn't do all the above you'd get cut.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #90 of 106 (920 views)
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Your point #2 is probably a huge one.

Most of the dirt dives I hear involve nothing more than "break at x,000feet".

Not much in the way of "what if's" being covered.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 23, 2012, 4:23 PM
Post #91 of 106 (891 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ?

No, that's what the wave-off is for.

Again, if everyone remained focused down and out while tracking, looking for the low man and giving the right of way, the wave-off is enough.

If you spend your time doing an extended, quality scan of the area below you, you're going to see anyone who is there. If they wave off, you're going to see that too.

You're a pilot, correct? You know the techniques for an effective traffic scan, slice the sky up into sections and scan one section at a time. The reason is that without that methodology, people scan too fast and too much area at once, and tend to miss things.

This is the same. You need to spend all of your track scannig the area where you are going if you want it to be effective. We're only talking about 5 or 6 seconds here, so you can see that a quality scan of any area will take the entire time. Trying to split that up between belly, and back tracking, or even looking up and down, will just reduce the effectiveness of the scan.


Why are we arguing the merits of doing a barrel roll while tracking? The question isn't whether it's a good idea. The question is whether it's necessary. In most cases it simply isn't.

Unless a jumper has severely restricted rotational movement of the head, there simply isn't a need to barrel roll to see directly overhead.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 23, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #92 of 106 (875 views)
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In reply to:
So at the moment we don't really have an effective way to deal with spearation in larger groups.

I'll take my risks under canopy and stay away from the bigways!

We have had an effective way of dealing with separation on big ways from at least the 70s that I know of.

At break off you turn 180 from the center of the formation and track until your assigned pull altitude. As Bill said it has worked for loads up to 400 people. The safety comes from everyone doing the same thing. Its when people try to be creative that things go to shit.

Sparky


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 24, 2012, 12:59 PM
Post #93 of 106 (830 views)
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In reply to:
Your point #2 is probably a huge one.

Most of the dirt dives I hear involve nothing more than "break at x,000feet".

Not much in the way of "what if's" being covered.
So, did you ask?
Or, did you just go with the flow?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 24, 2012, 1:02 PM
Post #94 of 106 (827 views)
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In reply to:
So at the moment we don't really have an effective way to deal with spearation in larger groups.

Yes, we do. It's just that some refuse to "get it".


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 24, 2012, 1:05 PM
Post #95 of 106 (824 views)
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In reply to:
I still have problems with this dumping blindly and hoping the person above is doing their job properly.
We all would have that problem, yes. However, dumping blindly is not what we are talking about here.


diverds  (D 17797)

Aug 25, 2012, 6:21 AM
Post #96 of 106 (776 views)
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It seems to me that barrel rolling is one of many tools we have at our disposal. There are cases where it may not be appropriate. But to make some of the blanket statements for or against it that I have read in this thread seem equally foolish. Maybe the circumstances at hand and the ability of the jumper both need to be taken into account when deciding whether or not to pull it out of the bag.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 25, 2012, 6:58 AM
Post #97 of 106 (769 views)
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In reply to:
>do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes

Sure I do - a glance to check if someone is behind me, as long as I have time. But I'm not going to take my eyes off what is in front of me - because that's where I'm going, that's where the hazards are, and that's where my responsibility lies.

And since the low person has right of way, it makes sense to be looking for him/her rather than in the opposite direction.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 25, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #98 of 106 (761 views)
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In reply to:

And since the low person has right of way, it makes sense to be looking for him/her rather than in the opposite direction.

If you 100% trust the person above you (who should not be there in the first place).


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 25, 2012, 8:05 AM
Post #99 of 106 (750 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

And since the low person has right of way, it makes sense to be looking for him/her rather than in the opposite direction.

If you 100% trust the person above you (who should not be there in the first place).

You always have the option of not jumping with people you don't trust.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 25, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #100 of 106 (737 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

If you 100% trust the person above you (who should not be there in the first place).

You always have the option of not jumping with people you don't trust.

An option I exercise all the time.












Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 26, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #106 of 106 (216 views)
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>It seems to me that barrel rolling is one of many tools we have at our disposal. There
>are cases where it may not be appropriate. But to make some of the blanket
>statements for or against it that I have read in this thread seem equally foolish.

Agreed. There are cases where it can be done safely - as long as it is planned for.

To me it's like the 45 degree rule. There's nothing unsafe about looking out at a 45 degree angle from the plane and then jumping - PROVIDED you leave enough time between yourself and the previous group. The time it does become a problem is when you assume that the 45 degree thing is all you need to do to get safe separation.



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