Forums: Skydiving: Instructors:
Student H&P's

 


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 13, 2012, 6:10 PM
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Student H&P's Can't Post

From the incidents forum:

Hop and pop accident in San Marcos, TX
.....His exit was unstable, reached and threw out his pilot chute which ended up on his back as he was rolling to his left. Level 14 coach jump. His leg went thru his lines causing the horseshoe mal function.

..... I believe that the amount of fabric from the two student canopys slowed him down just enough to have a chance of surviving.



So...what is the problem here?

The problem is instructors sending young jumpers out to do H&Ps without having first taught them, and made them practice, stable exits from altitude.

Yes, yes...you can use the old "anything can happen at anytime excuse" if you like. Use whatever excuse you like just get off your dead ass an teach them stable exits from altitude right from the get go...always BEFORE you send them out on the H&P.

You teach them the easiest to accomplish and make sure they can do it BEFORE the H&P.

How many of you doing AFF send them out on jump 8 or 9 or 10 or anywhere near that early? Ask yourself, "Why?"


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 13, 2012, 6:57 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From the incidents forum:

Hop and pop accident in San Marcos, TX
.....His exit was unstable, reached and threw out his pilot chute which ended up on his back as he was rolling to his left. Level 14 coach jump. His leg went thru his lines causing the horseshoe mal function.

..... I believe that the amount of fabric from the two student canopys slowed him down just enough to have a chance of surviving.



So...what is the problem here?

The problem is instructors sending young jumpers out to do H&Ps without having first taught them, and made them practice, stable exits from altitude.

Yes, yes...you can use the old "anything can happen at anytime excuse" if you like. Use whatever excuse you like just get off your dead ass an teach them stable exits from altitude right from the get go...always BEFORE you send them out on the H&P.

You teach them the easiest to accomplish and make sure they can do it BEFORE the H&P.

How many of you doing AFF send them out on jump 8 or 9 or 10 or anywhere near that early? Ask yourself, "Why?"

Interesting point. What would hurt to have students make a few "hop n pop" style exits and p/c touches at full altitude during progression jumps?

Excuse my ignorance on the issue, as I haven't held a rating for a decade.


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 13, 2012, 7:02 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome to the mainstreaming of the sport where SL is no longer a "modern" form progression... LOL

Used to be a few reasons we made you crawl before your tried to run a marathon.Laugh


DougH  (D License)

Aug 13, 2012, 7:30 PM
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Re: [stratostar] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Hybrid student progression with an IAD jump or two might help.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Aug 13, 2012, 8:07 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
From the incidents forum:

Hop and pop accident in San Marcos, TX
.....His exit was unstable, reached and threw out his pilot chute which ended up on his back as he was rolling to his left. Level 14 coach jump. His leg went thru his lines causing the horseshoe mal function.

..... I believe that the amount of fabric from the two student canopys slowed him down just enough to have a chance of surviving.



So...what is the problem here?

The problem is instructors sending young jumpers out to do H&Ps without having first taught them, and made them practice, stable exits from altitude.

Yes, yes...you can use the old "anything can happen at anytime excuse" if you like. Use whatever excuse you like just get off your dead ass an teach them stable exits from altitude right from the get go...always BEFORE you send them out on the H&P.

You teach them the easiest to accomplish and make sure they can do it BEFORE the H&P.

How many of you doing AFF send them out on jump 8 or 9 or 10 or anywhere near that early? Ask yourself, "Why?"

Interesting point. What would hurt to have students make a few "hop n pop" style exits and p/c touches at full altitude during progression jumps?

Excuse my ignorance on the issue, as I haven't held a rating for a decade.

depends where they do their aff at. At SDC they have students exit stable, then later in the course they exit poised front float facing the tail intentionally causing the unstable exit. The HP there are done from 5 then 3.5. On both of those its emphasized that you get stable first before pulling (obviously we caveat that you need to be alti aware). But the main thing is they drill the students on the ground a lot.

Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 13, 2012, 10:37 PM
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Re: [jtiflyer] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 14, 2012, 1:44 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy, What is a level 14 coach jump? Is that one of the 2 hop and pops required for an A?

Here is Oz - hop and pops are required as the final two jumps for AFF - 5500 followed by 3500 I believe. I don't know what the dropzone involved does, but here hop and pops are from a 182 and a strut hang exit. The strut hang seems to work well, compared to trying to exit stable off the step of a 182 (I watched someone with 40 jumps take in excess of 10 seconds to get stable, from the step).


excaza  (C License)

Aug 14, 2012, 5:08 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Andy, What is a level 14 coach jump? Is that one of the 2 hop and pops required for an A?
After AFF there aren't really any set progressions, it's just working through the remainder of the categories on the A card. I'm not really sure how you can do a hop and pop on a coach jump though.

As for practicing stable exits at altitude, shouldn't the poised exits prepare a student fairly well for exit body position? When I was going through my AFF levels, only two of my exits weren't poised, and I made sure to do a couple more poised exits before I did my hop & pops just to make sure I had it. It didn't prepare me to count at a regular speed though, apparently you count really fast when nervous Tongue


(This post was edited by excaza on Aug 14, 2012, 5:09 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Aug 14, 2012, 5:48 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(I watched someone with 40 jumps take in excess of 10 seconds to get stable, from the step).

That right there is a indication of a problem!


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Aug 14, 2012, 6:14 AM
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Re: [excaza] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
As for practicing stable exits at altitude, shouldn't the poised exits prepare a student fairly well for exit body position?

I think having students perform a practice pull in the first few seconds after exit would give them a lot more confidence when it comes time to do it for real at lower altitudes.

A student can perform a hop n pop style exit and perform a practice touch, and still go on with FS work.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 14, 2012, 7:17 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think having students perform a practice pull in the first few seconds after exit would give them a lot more confidence when it comes time to do it for real at lower altitudes.

A student can perform a hop n pop style exit and perform a practice touch, and still go on with FS work.

I'm liking this. After graduation, we have them do a few solos to get more comfy, then they go work on the card. You're comment would provide essentially free practice really for the H&P during any/some of those jumps. (Arch, relax, reach, touch - no counting, no pressure, just practice the real thing)

I'd certainly like to see more consistent success on H&Ps and I'll suggest this as something to add to our normal procedures. I shamed I didn't think of it myself, I started SL years ago and it's an obvious carryover that we could have retained into AFF.

(I think the main argument would be something like - 'what? add something else to their overloaded brains? what the hell are you thinking? but maybe not)

FWIW - I don't like counting seconds for an H&P (side note), I teach a calm clear 'then' pull as above.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 14, 2012, 7:18 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 14, 2012, 7:47 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 14, 2012, 8:58 AM
Post #13 of 58 (2618 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......

Techniques do evolve and ... SHOCK HORROR... even improve in some cases.

It might pay to keep your mind open to new techniques and methods instead of dismissing them as "mad skillz" before understanding what they are.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Aug 14, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #14 of 58 (2549 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......

Techniques do evolve and ... SHOCK HORROR... even improve in some cases.

It might pay to keep your mind open to new techniques and methods instead of dismissing them as "mad skillz" before understanding what they are.

+1

If techniques didn't progress how are the top 4 way teams able to average 25+?

I am not claiming that all the information given to students from 15+ years ago is bad or irrelevant. I am saying that with the advent of tunnels and coaching from world class teams there are techniques and training methods that make it easier for students.

Will I get into specifics, no. Why? I don't want to get into a pissing contest with who knows what or who teaches better than who.


hillson  (D 33134)

Aug 14, 2012, 3:08 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Do they have to be poised? Both of my student h&p were diving exits. Granted I usually do a clear and pull at least once a day per weekend so poised exits are no big deal...but I was allowed to choose...?

ETA: I also did a few poised H&P on solo status before my "official" ones so maybe that's it...


(This post was edited by hillson on Aug 14, 2012, 3:11 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 14, 2012, 4:47 PM
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Re: [hillson] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

I would think that, as the intent of the mandatory HnPs is to practice for aircraft emergencies, that non-poised "get the fuck out"-style exits are a better preparation for emergencies. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds (is that the pass criteria for A-licence HnPs?)


excaza  (C License)

Aug 14, 2012, 5:36 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds (is that the pass criteria for A-licence HnPs?)
Roughly. I was told to count to 5 for my 5.5k (3s for my 3.5k) and then pull, so +/- a couple seconds and you still pass as long as you were stable.


(This post was edited by excaza on Aug 14, 2012, 5:37 PM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Aug 14, 2012, 7:34 PM
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Re: [excaza] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Those early tethered and free fall SL jumps really taught me basic exit stability.


Monko760  (Student)

Aug 14, 2012, 8:38 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

As a student with 13 jumps I have to agree that more should be done to prepare students in AFF for the coming HnP required for the A. In my 5 solos my main goal was a stable exit, then flailing around with my mad skillz perfecting freefly. =)


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 14, 2012, 9:42 PM
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Re: [Monko760] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have to agree that more should be done to prepare students in AFF for the coming HnP required for the A

By the time you get to a h&P in AFF progression, you should have already done a number of solo exits with stability, the only difference is the exit altitude at that point, it's more mental then anything, unless you've been getting training from one of the fuck heads who just pass people to pass them and give shitty instruction while doing it.

If you can't do it by that point in the progression, then you should not have been passed to the other levels, period!


hillson  (D 33134)

Aug 15, 2012, 5:15 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks...figured as such. Been a while since I thought about the TLOs for the student H&Ps.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:20 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......

Techniques do evolve and ... SHOCK HORROR... even improve in some cases.

It might pay to keep your mind open to new techniques and methods instead of dismissing them as "mad skillz" before understanding what they are.

We are talking a SPECIFIC technique here...namely how to exit the aircraft in a stable position.

Now please elaborate, in some detail how the technique of exiting in a stable position has evolved in the last few years, in a way that I have no knowledge of.

My mind is open and receptive to new ideas.

Its not like I haven't seen, experienced and adopted new techniques and ideas in the last 38 years I've been involved in skydiving.

Now tell me how this new fangled exit technique works!.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:24 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds

Nonsense.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:00 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds

Nonsense.

You're saying that a diving exit will have a pre-A-licence jumper in a position to pull in the same amount of time as a poised exit?

I'll see your "nonsense" and raise you a "poppycock"!


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:04 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We are talking a SPECIFIC technique here...namely how to exit the aircraft in a stable position.

Now please elaborate, in some detail how the technique of exiting in a stable position has evolved in the last few years, in a way that I have no knowledge of.

My mind is open and receptive to new ideas.

Its not like I haven't seen, experienced and adopted new techniques and ideas in the last 38 years I've been involved in skydiving.

Now tell me how this new fangled exit technique works!.

To clarify, it was not me that suggested a new technique.

If your post above is true, maybe I got the wrong end of the stick from your use of the phrase "mad skillz" in the previous one.

I hate that phrase anyway. Skydivers overuse it in the same way that whuffos use "perfectly good airplane" - like they just invented a funny.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:58 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds

Nonsense.

You're saying that a diving exit will have a pre-A-licence jumper in a position to pull in the same amount of time as a poised exit?

I'll see your "nonsense" and raise you a "poppycock"!

OK, I'll assume you have a lot of experience training students.....is that in fact the case?.

Your statement that it is "harder to get stable and pull within 5 seconds", didn't seem specifically about pre A licence students, AND, in any case, is simply not necessarily true.

A poised exit should be perfect from the start, a dive exit within a couple of seconds, max.

5 seconds after exit is 500 feet of altitude. That is plenty. I can teach a pre A licenced jumper to do a stable dive exit and be in a good position to deploy in a lot less that 500 feet.

I've taught hundreds of students to do that, and gone base or pin for them on their first link. With a well timed count, the base - pin is usually together within 2 or 3 seconds. That is normal.

The trick is to use the relative wind and prop blast to exit in a stable position, and that is all about presenting your body to the prop blast correctly.

Did nobody teach you that?.

No one is going to do relative work with somebody who burns 500 feet dropping out of the sky getting stable.


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #27 of 58 (1062 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Where I am now... They use antique techniques from 15-20 years ago, that often cause more problems then they "fix"

In reply to:

I'm curious, where are you now and what do they do?

I'm curious as well. Its gonna come as a real shock to realise I've been doing it all wrong for nearly 40 years.....

The new generation are just full of surprises to go with their mad skillz......

Techniques do evolve and ... SHOCK HORROR... even improve in some cases.

It might pay to keep your mind open to new techniques and methods instead of dismissing them as "mad skillz" before understanding what they are.

We are talking a SPECIFIC technique here...namely how to exit the aircraft in a stable position.

Now please elaborate, in some detail how the technique of exiting in a stable position has evolved in the last few years, in a way that I have no knowledge of.

My mind is open and receptive to new ideas.

Its not like I haven't seen, experienced and adopted new techniques and ideas in the last 38 years I've been involved in skydiving.

Now tell me how this new fangled exit technique works!.
I don't know about everyone else, but my easiest stable exit is to take a knee in the door facing 45 degrees to the front, and then just jump out into my best arch, facing forwards. For me, it's a compromise between a fully poised exit sat in the door and a normal dive exit.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:17 AM
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Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Haven't seen this brought up, and if it has I apologize for repeating it, but do those of you with more than 10 years in the sport remember your first H&P after doing all of AFF from 13k? I sure as shit do (it was only 200 jumps ago) and I was scared shitless. There I am, poised in the door looking at the earth which is a whole lot closer than it has been and I've got this 5 second requirement making me more and more nervous. All of the calm and composed exits I've done previously were erased. Practice and repetition can be done til both instructor and student are blue in the face, but when the rubber hits the road the student can forget everything because the earth is now really close!

I know you like to pose questions vs. give answers obelixtim, but you've got to keep in mind that the first H&P can me a major mind-f*&k for a lot of people. I went through 13 levels prior to mine, never repeated a level or had a bad debrief and my H&P was terrible. I pitched inside 5 seconds, but I wasn't a picture of stability when I did.


(This post was edited by hokierower on Aug 15, 2012, 11:19 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:55 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
t a diving exit will have a pre-A-licence jumper in a position to pull in the same amount of time as a poised exit?

absolutely - review "relative wind" again


3mpire  (C 39657)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:57 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

I learned on SL so hop and pops was basically my first 12 jumps and to-date are one of my favorite jumps to make (the lower the better Wink)

Forgive my ignorance about AFF, but isn't exit stability a criteria for passing a jump, and if so, what is the definition of "stable" that is applied?

In my progression leaving the aircraft with a stable arch and doing practice rip-cord pulls was THE criteria for getting off the SL, and even then a few more where I actually pulled before I was given the reward of full altitude having demonstrated I can exit and pull.

If in AFF you are evaluated on your exit and you exit poorly then you shouldn't be progressing, right? By the time you get to a hop & pop, exiting should be an existing skill in the student's tool set?

I know I can read the SIM to see what the text says but I guess what I'm interested in is an AFFI's perspective on what they look for in exits since so much of that can be subjective? Is there any reason why we shouldn't expect a student to exit in such a way that they could deploy within 5-10 seconds no matter what their altitude?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:58 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A poised exit should be perfect from the start, a dive exit within a couple of seconds, max.

if we teach it right (i.e., the student isn't scared to dive steep enough to hit the wind correctly), a dive exit is also stable from the start - or sideways or poised, etc etc....... orientation doesn't matter as long as our junk is square to the wind

Quote:
The trick is to use the relative wind and prop blast to exit in a stable position, and that is all about presenting your body to the prop blast correctly.


damn straight


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 15, 2012, 12:03 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 15, 2012, 12:02 PM
Post #32 of 58 (1039 views)
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Re: [hokierower] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've got this 5 second requirement making me more and more nervous.

I hate that damn thing.

Arch, relax, reach, pull
(the 'relax', or 'breathe', or 'pause' is plenty of time to get away even for the most nervous of students. If they are that nervous, they'll quick-pitch regardless)

giving a random delay of any kind is pointless and doesn't add to the training - IMHO, YMMV (I'm sure someone will V)

it's a clear and pull, not a clear and wait and pull


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 15, 2012, 12:03 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 2:23 PM
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Re: [hokierower] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haven't seen this brought up, and if it has I apologize for repeating it, but do those of you with more than 10 years in the sport remember your first H&P after doing all of AFF from 13k? I sure as shit do (it was only 200 jumps ago) and I was scared shitless. There I am, poised in the door looking at the earth which is a whole lot closer than it has been and I've got this 5 second requirement making me more and more nervous. All of the calm and composed exits I've done previously were erased. Practice and repetition can be done til both instructor and student are blue in the face, but when the rubber hits the road the student can forget everything because the earth is now really close!

I know you like to pose questions vs. give answers obelixtim, but you've got to keep in mind that the first H&P can me a major mind-f*&k for a lot of people. I went through 13 levels prior to mine, never repeated a level or had a bad debrief and my H&P was terrible. I pitched inside 5 seconds, but I wasn't a picture of stability when I did.

I understand where you are coming from, but from my point of view if you are freaking out at that point, then your Instructor has done a piss poor job of preparing you for it.

Exiting stable from any position should be almost second nature by then, and the exit altitude doesn't affect that one bit.

Did they not explain to you that pulling at 5500, or 3500, for that matter, when you are at terminal after a normal AFF jump, you are burning altitude twice as fast as you are if you exit at that altitude, not to mention the few seconds of horizontal flight you get from throw forward of the aircraft???.

And because of those factors, exiting at those levels is quite safe, and you have time to get stable and deploy, without any stress at all.

And was it not carefully explained that freaking out, in any situation, is the worst thing you can do, because when you freak out you are out of control, and when you are out of control you are in trouble.

Panic solves absolutely nothing, but is almost a certain guarantee you'll get into trouble.

See, these are concepts I drill into the heads of all my students from day one, and I put them under all sorts of stress during training to try aqnd freak them out, and they have to show me clearly that they can handle all I can throw at them.

Then I make it clear that they might even invent some new situation that even I haven't thought of, but as they'll be on their own, they'll have to deal with it, and its essential to keep the brain switched on at all times.

When I had about 15 jumps we were at about 1800 feet in the plane when we hit cloudbase, and we were right on evening civil twilight. The JM gave the order to run in, and I realised we were going to jump......I pointed at the ground, and my alti, but he gave me no chance to argue...."get the F*&% out".

I got out, as did the rest of the load....and it was OK.

Thing is, I trusted his judgement, so I believed it would be OK.

When an AFF student is cleared for his H&P, he needs to trust the judgement of his Instructors, and be confident in his ability to do so..

Having said that of course, the caveat is IF the Instructors have prepared them properly, both physically, and mentally.

Your story suggests to me that your Instructors did neither. And thats the beef I have with AFF.

My experience with AFF trained jumpers is, that with some exceptions, a few fundamental aspects of skydive training are not properly trained.

I've come across jumpers with hundreds of jumps who have no clue about some of the most basic "needs to know", that they should have learnt from jump number one.

Its really quite scary, the level of ignorance out there.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Aug 15, 2012, 2:42 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 2:50 PM
Post #34 of 58 (1010 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your statement that it is "harder to get stable and pull within 5 seconds", didn't seem specifically about pre A licence students, AND, in any case, is simply not necessarily true.

The title of the thread is "Student H&P's".

In reply to:
A poised exit should be perfect from the start, a dive exit within a couple of seconds, max.

Yes, it should be - for someone who has practiced it. Isn't that the whole point of this thread?

My point is that it takes a student longer to get stable from a diving exit than a poised exit. Shit, plenty of them can't even hold a poised exit stable the first few times.

Your students may be adept at turning points on the hill, but many aren't.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 3:23 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My point is that it takes a student longer to get stable from a diving exit than a poised exit. Shit, plenty of them can't even hold a poised exit stable the first few times.

So what is your solution then?.


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:22 PM
Post #36 of 58 (973 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds

Nonsense.

You're saying that a diving exit will have a pre-A-licence jumper in a position to pull in the same amount of time as a poised exit?

I'll see your "nonsense" and raise you a "poppycock"!

I'll chuck in a "you're ill informed". A diving exit is just as stable and for many students easier than a poised, while also being a faster exit, which IS the point of the simulated emergency exit/


jinlee  (D License)

Aug 15, 2012, 10:12 PM
Post #37 of 58 (952 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
. But they are harder to get stable from and pull within 5 seconds

Nonsense.

You're saying that a diving exit will have a pre-A-licence jumper in a position to pull in the same amount of time as a poised exit?

I'll see your "nonsense" and raise you a "poppycock"!

I'll chuck in a "you're ill informed". A diving exit is just as stable and for many students easier than a poised, while also being a faster exit, which IS the point of the simulated emergency exit/

As has been mentioned it's most often mental whether those 1st couple H&P's are graceful. I've known some jumpers well past A license not want to exit low over a given location yet are willing to do the same at higher altitudes. The don't look down factor applies somehow. Crazy


Divalent  (C 40494)

Aug 17, 2012, 6:21 PM
Post #38 of 58 (875 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My point is that it takes a student longer to get stable from a diving exit than a poised exit. Shit, plenty of them can't even hold a poised exit stable the first few times.

So what is your solution then?.

What Popsjumper suggested in the opening post in the thread: have students practice the exit on a couple of altitude jumps before doing the actual hop-n-pop.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 18, 2012, 1:55 AM
Post #39 of 58 (847 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What Popsjumper suggested in the opening post in the thread: have students practice the exit on a couple of altitude jumps before doing the actual hop-n-pop.

Thanks for the reply, but I was looking for the answer from our learned friend......


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 18, 2012, 8:45 AM
Post #40 of 58 (819 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What Popsjumper suggested in the opening post in the thread: have students practice the exit on a couple of altitude jumps before doing the actual hop-n-pop.

Thanks for the reply, but I was looking for the answer from our learned friend......

Exactly what Divalent/Popsjumper said. That is the reason for this thread.

Getting back to basics, if the purpose of mandatory H&Ps is to practice getting out in an emergency, then they should be practiced until people are confident and competent.

Personally, I think jumpers should do more H&Ps for canopy control purposes anyway, but that's another matter.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Aug 18, 2012, 10:26 AM
Post #41 of 58 (809 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Trained static line, 20 years S/L I, 7 years S/L I-E, also AFF-I.
My opinion, especially having AFF babies show up post training and having watched a few AFF graduates do their hop & pops is that AFF underappreciates the "hard arch" and overstresses the "relaxed arch".
I'm not saying that the jumper shouldn't relax in freefall to avoid the dreaded "chip", but the hard arch will keep a student belly to the relative wind and will get them back there very effectively. I've seen enough lazy, unstable exits from those trained AFF because they don't hold their arch long enough after exit.
The altitude thing is entirely another matter. It's only normal for them, after being trained to pull high, to be nervous at what they consider to very low altitudes. That part goes to how well they are trained for the low altitude exits, and unfortunatly, a lot of AFF traing centers quit training once the big money stops flowing (not to say that doesn't happen at some small, S/L operations).


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 19, 2012, 5:52 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Interesting point. What would hurt to have students make a few "hop n pop" style exits and p/c touches at full altitude during progression jumps?

After being released for self-supervision, yes.
For AFF level 7, I agree, it's usually a diving exit. Why not make that a H&P exit instead?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 19, 2012, 5:58 PM
Post #43 of 58 (752 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Andy, What is a level 14 coach jump? Is that one of the 2 hop and pops required for an A?

Here is Oz - hop and pops are required as the final two jumps for AFF - 5500 followed by 3500 I believe. I don't know what the dropzone involved does, but here hop and pops are from a 182 and a strut hang exit. The strut hang seems to work well, compared to trying to exit stable off the step of a 182 (I watched someone with 40 jumps take in excess of 10 seconds to get stable, from the step).

Level 14...or whatever...it's only one of a myriad of training programs involving anywhere from 7 to 18 jumps or more.

Your (Aussie) H&P methods....I do not agree with and here's why:
The H&P requirement is all about training for emergency exits. Somehow, I can't picture hanging from a strut in an emergency situation.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 19, 2012, 6:03 PM
Post #44 of 58 (749 views)
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Re: [excaza] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As for practicing stable exits at altitude, shouldn't the poised exits prepare a student fairly well for exit body position?

Again, the H&P is training for emergency exits. You are telling me that you didn't know this already and IMO, you trainers failed in providing you with a solid safety background.

In an emergency exit situation, you will not be doing a poised exit....while you are getting set up, the person behind you will be knocking your posed ass off the plane.





When I was going through my AFF levels, only two of my exits weren't poised, and I made sure to do a couple more poised exits before I did my hop & pops just to make sure I had it. It didn't prepare me to count at a regular speed though, apparently you count really fast when nervous Tongue


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 19, 2012, 6:10 PM
Post #45 of 58 (747 views)
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Re: [hillson] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do they have to be poised
Read the post above.

In reply to:
...but I was allowed to choose...?
Good! I hope you chose to practice both a standing exit and a diving exit until you could be stable or get stable immediately with no problems. In an emergency exit, you may not have a choice on how you hit the wind.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Aug 19, 2012, 6:10 PM)


excaza  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 6:17 PM
Post #46 of 58 (741 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, the H&P is training for emergency exits. You are telling me that you didn't know this already and IMO, you trainers failed in providing you with a solid safety background.
Except that's not at all what I said.

A student should be comfortable with getting out facing the relative wind and being stable out the door because it's what they did for most of their AFF jumps. Hence why I asked "shouldn't they be comfortable with the body position?"

I'm not saying one should get in the door, get their feet in the right spot, arch and then do the exit cadence as the airplane is hurtling towards the ground. I would appreciate if you didn't insinuate that I did.

edit: grammar


(This post was edited by excaza on Aug 19, 2012, 6:19 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 19, 2012, 6:17 PM
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Re: [Quagmirian] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
my easiest stable exit is to take a knee in the door facing 45 degrees to the front, and then just jump out into my best arch, facing forwards.

good stuff...Now do it from your feet. Nobody is going to wait for you to take a knee in the door...you will get run over.


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 19, 2012, 10:14 PM
Post #48 of 58 (705 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, the H&P is training for emergency exits.

In reply to:

Boy has the sport CHANGED since I was a stooodent...H&P's use to be for canopy accuracy practice, exits were at 2000'. An easy 4 loads an hour in a 182! Laugh


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 11:14 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Boy has the sport CHANGED since I was a stooodent...

Haha - no shit!


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 20, 2012, 1:19 AM
Post #50 of 58 (692 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, the H&P is training for emergency exits.

In reply to:

Boy has the sport CHANGED since I was a stooodent...H&P's use to be for canopy accuracy practice, exits were at 2000'. An easy 4 loads an hour in a 182! Laugh

Did a hop and pop this weekend. The other guys in the 182 were trying to kick me out at 3.5 and without a cut so they could get to altitude quicklySmile I stuck with 5k and a cut but still gave it a good delaySly


potatoman  (Student)

Aug 21, 2012, 1:05 AM
Post #51 of 58 (540 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not an instructor, but have been in the sport for long.

Static line trains the student to arch from the get go. He actually has very little time before the chute opens. This repeated, they get used to arching hard. I would think a more safer way is to incorporate(instead of a couple of tandems), have the student do 5 or so static jumps, progress them to AFF level 1. You eliminate the altitude difference mindf$%*, you make sure the student arches hard from the get go, and the student is more ready for a low aircraft malfunction, early in his training. I also find that aff students tend to wait for the speed buildup, so much more relaxed than pushing a hard arch from scratch.

Another thing which a wise man taught me, was to not see your exit as an exit, but rather a transition, from still air in the cabin, to flowing air outside (Speed being the same initially). And controlling yourself in the wind. This tends to have to student much more focussed on flying the relative wind, than just jumping out, and then getting stable.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #52 of 58 (497 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, the H&P is training for emergency exits.

In reply to:

Boy has the sport CHANGED since I was a stooodent...H&P's use to be for canopy accuracy practice, exits were at 2000'. An easy 4 loads an hour in a 182! Laugh

We've come a long way, baby!
LaughLaughLaugh


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:33 AM
Post #53 of 58 (494 views)
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Re: [potatoman] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You eliminate the altitude difference mindf$%*,

LaughLaughLaugh
S/L - Oh shit! We're going higher on the next one?

AFF - Oh shit! We're going lower on the next one?


LaughLaughLaugh


scottd818  (C 41314)

Aug 22, 2012, 9:20 AM
Post #54 of 58 (456 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

my first H&P was a auctual emergecy exit. i remember the door goin up and thinkin i could still read the stop sign, and u want me to get out!? but it was better than riding the plane down. so i jumped got stable right away and dumped. that was one hell of a rush.


dthames  (B 37674)

Aug 22, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #55 of 58 (449 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You eliminate the altitude difference mindf$%*,

LaughLaughLaugh
S/L - Oh shit! We're going higher on the next one?
AFF - Oh shit! We're going lower on the next one?
LaughLaughLaugh

That cracks me up. Maybe I have a problem because I was never sure how I was trained.

I had some problems in my early jumps, mixed some SL with AFF, then stopped AFF and went to SL only to get to solo status. Often, I have felt all of the problems I had were holding me back. But in retrospect I see I might have learned more because of my problems.

I know my SL jumps made a big difference in the AFF jumps that I did after a few SL jumps. My exits were much better. About the 3rd SL exit something clicked that you arch right on exit, not 3 seconds later, when someone is banging their helmet into your kidney.


(This post was edited by dthames on Aug 22, 2012, 10:32 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Aug 22, 2012, 1:59 PM
Post #56 of 58 (431 views)
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Re: [DougH] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
(I watched someone with 40 jumps take in excess of 10 seconds to get stable, from the step).

That right there is a indication of a problem!

Hah! I watched a whole DC-3 load of "skygods" flail out the door at 5K trying to do H&P's for a commercial.

We wanted to go out lower but too many weren't comfortable with less than 5.Unsure

Perhaps students are having problems because lots of Instructors don't do them anymore.

top


livendive  (D 21415)

Aug 22, 2012, 2:43 PM
Post #57 of 58 (422 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, the H&P is training for emergency exits.

In reply to:

Boy has the sport CHANGED since I was a stooodent...

I can see how you'd view the invention of the internal combustion engine as a fairly significant change. Sly

Blues,
Dave


yoink

Aug 29, 2012, 12:25 PM
Post #58 of 58 (353 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Student H&P's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In an emergency exit situation, you will not be doing a poised exit....while you are getting set up, the person behind you will be knocking your posed ass off the plane.


I've seen this with a low time jumper in a real AC emergency.... Unimpressed

The guys behind him did NOT wait for him to get his shit together.


(This post was edited by yoink on Aug 29, 2012, 12:27 PM)



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