Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
newb helmet question

 


chemist  (A License)

Jul 29, 2012, 4:05 PM
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newb helmet question Can't Post

hello,

I did a tandem and am thinking now about getting a class A category license. However, most skydiving school have lower quality helmets, not to mention they usually have other peoples sweat in it.

So I guess I just wanted any input in the Ozone helmet by Cookie composites. http://www.cookiecomposites.com/shop/helmets/71/index.htm

I know nothing about skydiving. I am planning on getting a go pro camera, there shouldn't be any problems attaching it to that helmet right? I heard it connects using an adhesive tape to any helmet, but is it really that reliable to handle the strong ~100mpg winds?!

thanks


likestojump  (D License)

Jul 29, 2012, 4:13 PM
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

Troll much ?

where does your knowledge of what *most* skydiving schools use for helmets come from ?


excaza  (C License)

Jul 29, 2012, 4:21 PM
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It goes on your head and it's hard, what other quality are you looking for in a student helmet exactly?

Not sure how the two questions are related, but it's a fine helmet and yes the adhesive mount works fine most of the time.


chemist  (A License)

Jul 29, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #4 of 32 (2197 views)
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Re: [likestojump] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Troll much ?

where does your knowledge of what *most* skydiving schools use for helmets come from ?

lol why would I start an account to troll on this subject? Is it really that hot of an issue? haha

I saw a youtube video of a jump from the school I want to go train at and it looked like the helmets they used were those skateboarding style ones which is how I know, Although they do have a brand new facility and good new gear otherwise and a really nice airplane over there. I guess I couldn't speak for *most* schools.

Regardless the sweat would be an issue even if they did give students higher end ones. I just wanted to run it by a forum, who knows maybe I wouldn't be able to hear the radio since the ears are covered? Doubt that would be an issue though.


(This post was edited by chemist on Jul 29, 2012, 5:09 PM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 29, 2012, 5:13 PM
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

"Skateboard" type Protec helmets are by far the helmets that offer the best head protection used in skydiving.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jul 29, 2012, 6:51 PM
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

Suggest you focus on the training through Cat A and learn the gear choices as you go. And you really shouldn't even be talking cameras for awhile.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 29, 2012, 6:59 PM
Post #7 of 32 (2153 views)
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In reply to:
Regardless the sweat would be an issue even if they did give students higher end ones.

As already stated. those plastic "skateboard" helmets provide better protection than the expensive skydiving specific helmets. If other peoples sweat will bother you, buy one - the cheap skateboarding one, not the expensive skydiving one. Do a search in this forum to find out why you don't need the expensive one right now.

Pick up a pair of goggles too. They see more sweat than helmet liners do.

You can probably find both at the dz. If not, they can tell you where to look.

Other than a logbook and beer, that's all the gear you need to buy until you are done with your student jumps.


SkyPiggie  (D License)

Jul 29, 2012, 7:05 PM
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know nothing about skydiving. I am planning on getting a go pro camera, there shouldn't be any problems attaching it to that helmet right?

Do those two sentences seem to go together properly to you?


chemist  (A License)

Jul 29, 2012, 7:53 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I know nothing about skydiving. I am planning on getting a go pro camera, there shouldn't be any problems attaching it to that helmet right?

Do those two sentences seem to go together properly to you?

that was also a concern of mine, but why would you need jump experience to have a go pro on your head? They seem like they would be lightweight, I feel like once I get it and try it on I wouldn't even know that its on there.

Is it possible for it to get caught in a rope twist in the event you have a rope twist?


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 29, 2012, 8:02 PM
Post #10 of 32 (2118 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I know nothing about skydiving. I am planning on getting a go pro camera, there shouldn't be any problems attaching it to that helmet right?

Do those two sentences seem to go together properly to you?

that was also a concern of mine, but why would you need jump experience to have a go pro on your head? They seem like they would be lightweight, I feel like once I get it and try it on I wouldn't even know that its on there.

Is it possible for it to get caught in a rope twist in the event you have a rope twist?

Because you have too much other stuff to worry about. You cannot simply put it there, turn it on and forget about it. It doesn't happen that way.

There is a discipline specific forum for Photog and Vid. There are two "sticky" threads at the top. One is "Read this first" the other is the "Small Camera Incidents" list.
I suggest that you read them.


chemist  (A License)

Jul 29, 2012, 9:00 PM
Post #11 of 32 (2103 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw the sticky, attention is a hot issue. Not interested in going there.

As for the helmet, I looked at other threads. Is it because high impact helmets can be harder on the head during low impact events? Or what? I don't understand why the pro tec is the best for protection, aren't all helmets made for protection?


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jul 29, 2012, 9:49 PM
Post #12 of 32 (2084 views)
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In reply to:
aren't all helmets made for protection?

Nope.... In the strange world which is skydiving.... Many, many helmets are designed for everything except protection. They are designed to carry cameras, audible altimeters, or shield the face from the wind in freefall... but NOT to provide significant protection to the brain in the case of a blow to the head. Some skydiving helmets even carry labels which make it clear that they offer no protection!


JackC1

Jul 30, 2012, 3:37 AM
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In reply to:
"Skateboard" type Protec helmets are by far the helmets that offer the best head protection used in skydiving.

Protecs don't have any specific safety certification whatsoever. The dual foam liner in a Protec is only designed to withstand multiple minor impacts, not major ones. As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that a Protec offers significantly more protection than any other skydiving helmet. If you know of such evidence, please post it.


trigger  (D 101390)

Jul 30, 2012, 5:33 AM
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydiving helmet
Attachments: DSC02288.jpg (45.5 KB)
  DSC02290.jpg (32.2 KB)
  DSC02291.jpg (38.8 KB)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 30, 2012, 7:40 AM
Post #15 of 32 (1977 views)
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Re: [JackC1] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

The best protection is provided by a hard shell that resembles a Pro-Tec with a fancy liner from Oregon Aero.
At ten times the cost of a Pro-Tec, that combination provides five percent better protection.

Also consider that before Pro-Tecs were invented (circa 1980) many skydivers wore hockey helmets for "combat RW" events like ten-way speed-stars. The only practical difference between a Pro-Tec and a hockey helmet is fewer snag points on the Pro-Tec.


chemist  (A License)

Jul 30, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #16 of 32 (1954 views)
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Re: [JackC1] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
"Skateboard" type Protec helmets are by far the helmets that offer the best head protection used in skydiving.

Protecs don't have any specific safety certification whatsoever. The dual foam liner in a Protec is only designed to withstand multiple minor impacts, not major ones. As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that a Protec offers significantly more protection than any other skydiving helmet. If you know of such evidence, please post it.

there wouldn't be any data because carbon fiber is much stronger than general plastic that the pro tech are made from.

In fact carbon fiber is even stronger than some metals such as aluminum.

I have heard some motocross helmets can hurt more for minor impacts since the foam is built to absorb high impact only, but I do not think this is the case with the ozone helmet, it looks like the foam is very soft and comfortable.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 30, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #17 of 32 (1944 views)
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
there wouldn't be any data because carbon fiber is much stronger than general plastic that the pro tech are made from.

In fact carbon fiber is even stronger than some metals such as aluminum.

You really have no clue what you're talking about. There is no data because there is no certification for skydiving helmets to compare to the Protec. I'm not even sure the Protec is built to a standard of any kind.

Motorcycle and auto racing type helmets are built to a standard, and it's very specific to deal with the type of impacts you could expect from an incident involved with those activities.

The main shock-absorbing feature is the EPS foam liner (expanded ploy-styrene). It's like styrofoam, and what it does is crushes on impact, slowing the decelleration of the brain/skull in an effort to prevent TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury). Once these helmets are involved in an impact, they should be retired as the crushed liner can no longer absorb a shock.

The shell material, and the strenght of it are somwhat irrevelant. If it can remain in one peice through the certification, it matters little what it is.

Skydiving helmets, including the Protec, do not work on this pricipal. They are designed to protect from a much lower energy impact, more of a 'bump' than an impact.

The Protec is regarded as safer based on the thickness of the padding. In addition to the comft padding, they have 1/2 of stiff foam (not crushable) that provides added protection over a skydiving sepcific helmet.

Skydiving helmets feature one thin layer of comfort padding between the user and the shell. The purpose is to allow for a low profile helmet, which skydivers favor for the aerodynamics and unlimited range of peripheral vision. The use of carbon fiber in the shell was not for strength, but for weight, or the lack of it. Again, the weight is a plus to the jumper who has to wear the helmet though potentially high-g parachute openings.

Again, beyond a certain level, the strenght of the shell is academic. Your head/body can only survive so much of an impact, so if your helmet lives or not matters little.

No shit, try making one jump before rewriting the way things are done. A can guarantee that anyting you're going to think of for the next 50 to 100 jumps has been thought of, discussed, and tried at least 500 times before. Despite this, the status quo is what it is because that's what works in the real world.

Make a jump, see what you think of how it all works, and if you like it make another.


excaza  (C License)

Jul 30, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #18 of 32 (1914 views)
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In reply to:
there wouldn't be any data because carbon fiber is much stronger than general plastic that the pro tech are made from.

In fact carbon fiber is even stronger than some metals such as aluminum.
You can get plastics that are stronger than steel, but so what? Material comparisons without taking the application and operating environment into account are meaningless at best.


(This post was edited by excaza on Jul 30, 2012, 10:12 AM)


JackC1

Jul 30, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The best protection is provided by a hard shell that resembles a Pro-Tec with a fancy liner from Oregon Aero.
At ten times the cost of a Pro-Tec, that combination provides five percent better protection.

Do you have a reference for the study that measured this 5%? As convincing as hearsay and conjecture is, it would be nice to follow it up with verifiable fact.


JackC1

Jul 30, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #20 of 32 (1875 views)
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In reply to:
In fact carbon fiber is even stronger than some metals such as aluminum.

Judging by the number of carbon lids you see on a DZ with bits of gaffa tape and glue holding all the cracks together, I'd say the brittleness of carbon is a significant disadvantage.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Jul 30, 2012, 12:10 PM)


RunnerStreet  (B 36752)

Jul 30, 2012, 2:28 PM
Post #21 of 32 (1836 views)
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

carbon fiber is much stronger than general plastic that the pro tech are made from.

In fact carbon fiber is even stronger than some metals such as aluminum.
WTF mate?

Carbon Fiber may be stronger than plastic or aluminum, but it is NOT tougher than plastic, aluminum, or steel.

Would you take a 20oz framing hammer to a Cookie Composite helmet and expect it to hold up?
Hell No! But you could take it to a plastic Pro Tech.

Would you take a 20oz framing hammer to a Trek Madone OCLV Carbon Road Bike frame just to see if it holds up, then bomb down a hill at 40+ mph?
Hell No! But you could take it to an alloy frame and still ride with confidence.

Don't confuse strengthness with toughness


(This post was edited by RunnerStreet on Jul 30, 2012, 2:30 PM)


zerospinskier  (D License)

Jul 30, 2012, 6:13 PM
Post #22 of 32 (1799 views)
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Re: [JackC1] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In fact carbon fiber is even stronger than some metals such as aluminum.

Judging by the number of carbon lids you see on a DZ with bits of gaffa tape and glue holding all the cracks together, I'd say the brittleness of carbon is a significant disadvantage.

This is usually due to the matrix around the carbon fiber oxidizing quickly in the hot and sunny conditions most people skydive in. A new carbon fiber helmet will be awesome. But as it gets brittle and old over the years, you will definitely lose some protection.

As far as this whole thread, still not sure if serious -_-
100mpgs?


(This post was edited by zerospinskier on Jul 30, 2012, 6:14 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 30, 2012, 6:27 PM
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In reply to:
Don't confuse strengthness with toughness

Don't confuse toughness with the ability to prevent injury to the head.

A good quality motorcycle helmet (they ARE designed to protect the head, with very well designed tests to confirm that ability), I think would be destroyed by a strong hammer blow, but the structure is designed to do that. The skydiving helmets are definitely not so well designed to absorb impact, but may do a better job of it than you might think based upon their destruction from a hard impact.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jul 30, 2012, 6:27 PM)


JackC1

Jul 31, 2012, 12:12 AM
Post #24 of 32 (1741 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Judging by the number of carbon lids you see on a DZ with bits of gaffa tape and glue holding all the cracks together, I'd say the brittleness of carbon is a significant disadvantage.

This is usually due to the matrix around the carbon fiber oxidizing quickly in the hot and sunny conditions most people skydive in. A new carbon fiber helmet will be awesome. But as it gets brittle and old over the years, you will definitely lose some protection.

I'm not sure I completely buy this. 1) I've seen fairly new carbon helmets with cracks in them, 2) where I jump it is neither hot nor sunny.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Jul 31, 2012, 12:14 AM)


trigger  (D 101390)

Jul 31, 2012, 12:32 AM
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I've posted some pictures of a carbon helmet post impact.
Though they offer some protection imo they are nowhere near as good as a protec.
But hay it's all about the bling.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 31, 2012, 7:36 AM
Post #26 of 32 (486 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The best protection is provided by a hard shell that resembles a Pro-Tec with a fancy liner from Oregon Aero.
At ten times the cost of a Pro-Tec, that combination provides five percent better protection.

Do you have a reference for the study that measured this 5%? As convincing as hearsay and conjecture is, it would be nice to follow it up with verifiable fact.
.......................................................................

I invented that statistic.
Didn't you know that 73.42983 percent of statistics are invented on the spot.
Hah!
Hah!

I was trying to provide a "back of the envelope" cost-benefit analysis of cost versus protection. The point I was trying to make is that Pro-Tecs provide the best protection-per-dollar.
OTOH fancy carbon fibre helmets are more fashionable at vastly higher prices.

Helmets serve two functions: first the shell spreads the load, to prevent penetration and reduce localized trauma.
The second function of a helmet is to gradually decelerate the skull, to avoid slamming the brain around too hard.

If you doubt the benefit of modern helmets, compare the injuries suffered during my last plane crash. All of the TIs wore Pro-Tecs (or similar helmets) and recovered from concussions. Meanwhile, the single fun-jumper - wearing a French leather helmet - suffered irreparable brain injuries and will never be half the man he once was.


JackC1

Jul 31, 2012, 10:40 AM
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In reply to:
If you doubt the benefit of modern helmets, compare the injuries suffered during my last plane crash. All of the TIs wore Pro-Tecs (or similar helmets) and recovered from concussions. Meanwhile, the single fun-jumper - wearing a French leather helmet - suffered irreparable brain injuries and will never be half the man he once was.

I don't doubt that 1970's technology of a Protec is better than the 1790's technology of a frap hat. The question is whether it's better than carbon and kevlar from 2010, as says the popular myth.


chemist  (A License)

Jul 31, 2012, 10:10 PM
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In reply to:
I've posted some pictures of a carbon helmet post impact.
Though they offer some protection imo they are nowhere near as good as a protec.
But hay it's all about the bling.

I wouldn't use a helmet again if it cracked. It is actually more protection because when the shell cracks the energy dissipates throughout the shell, whereas if you are wearing a pro tec then all the energy from the impact is absorbed by your skull and locally.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 31, 2012, 10:59 PM
Post #29 of 32 (409 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I've posted some pictures of a carbon helmet post impact.
Though they offer some protection imo they are nowhere near as good as a protec.
But hay it's all about the bling.

I wouldn't use a helmet again if it cracked. It is actually more protection because when the shell cracks the energy dissipates throughout the shell, whereas if you are wearing a pro tec then all the energy from the impact is absorbed by your skull and locally.

You don't really understand what you are talking about....do you.

The ProTec helmet is certified by the Consumer Product Safety Commission and the Australian/New Zealand Standards for bicycles. No skydiving helmet on the market today is certified by any one for anything.

But you are going to buy one for the bling..quit trying to justify your decision with bull shit.

Sparky


JackC1

Aug 1, 2012, 3:54 AM
Post #30 of 32 (385 views)
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In reply to:
The ProTec helmet is certified by the Consumer Product Safety Commission

That depends on the model of Protec. The modern EPS lined Protec bicycle helmets are but the dual foam classic cut skate helmet beloved of skydivers isn't certified by anyone for anything.


trigger  (D 101390)

Aug 1, 2012, 4:11 AM
Post #31 of 32 (382 views)
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

Your right in saying that you shouldn't use a helmet post impact.
But trust me and others, protec offer far more protection than carbon open face helmets.
The damage to mine (no longer in use LOL) was caused when my head impacted the pilots seat with whom i was sitting back to back with.
Though it undoubtedly offered some protection on the whole it was shit given the circumstances.
Pro tecs will also accept an audible so there's really no reason other than vanity not to go with one.
I suspect you'll go with whatever suits your taste, but remember looking good never saved anyone.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 1, 2012, 8:25 AM
Post #32 of 32 (353 views)
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Re: [chemist] newb helmet question [In reply to] Can't Post

Just buy a G3 and leave us alone if you already made your decision.

Don't expect your instructors to let you jump with it tho.



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