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Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA?

 


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jul 24, 2012, 2:33 PM
Post #1 of 27 (4381 views)
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Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? Can't Post

The USPA has acknowledged that the rate of reporting of skydiving incidents in the USA is extremely low:

http://parachutistonline.com/...aring_up/july%202012

Why are skydiving incidents in the USA not reported to the USPA?

While the approach that the USPA is taking is to wag a finger at S&TAs and jumpers, I suspect that the failure is probably due to more than simple laziness.

-Why do you report/not report incidents that you are involved in?

-Why do you think that others report/don't report incidents that they are involved in?

-If you are/were an S&TA, DZM, or DZO why do you report/not report incidents?

Without good incident statistics it is very hard to identify our safety problems and/or evaluate the effectiveness of safety efforts.

It is my opinion that if we had complete reporting of all skydiving incidents in the US, which required evaluation and or treatment by a physician, we would be astonished at the non-fatal injury rate.


5.samadhi

Jul 24, 2012, 3:10 PM
Post #2 of 27 (4314 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

its a few every summer at most small dropzones that I've jumped at. A few meaning injuries like spinal compression, ankle fracture, tib/fib fracture, wrist fracture, etc.

I bet most arent publicized because of 'safety records' for the DZ and also embarassment by the people that biffed in that hard.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:20 PM
Post #3 of 27 (4277 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most are not reported because Dzo's don't want bad publicity. They like to be able to tell student's and tandems that they have no serious injuries or deaths.

If the real number of injuries was presented to new jumpers more people would decide this isn't for them. Dying is easy, living with the injuries from an accident can be much worse!


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:30 PM
Post #4 of 27 (4264 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In this day and age, it's hard to keep anything that involves a death or life flight out of the media, and with nearly-instant online access to media worldwide, reports usually make their way public regardless of whether someone at the DZ is doing the reporting. Any DZ would be stupid to claim a perfect safety safety record if the newspaper report of their recent fatality can be found through a quick google search. (I'm sure there are still DZs that do that, but it's not too hard to disprove when searching the media reports is as easy as it is these days).

But that wasn't the question you asked, so I'll try to actually address your specific question. I'd venture to guess that at least a few DZs don't trust USPA with the information. One reason cited in this thread.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jul 24, 2012, 4:32 PM)


Ron

Jul 24, 2012, 5:48 PM
Post #5 of 27 (4229 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the past the USPA has given data to lawyers who were suing a DZO. They claim they will not, but it has happened. I don't recall the details, but I am sure a search on here will provide the details if you care to look.

In addition, the USPA has done jack shit about accidents in the past... So why provide them with details when they are going to do fuck all with it but maybe give it to someone to use against you?


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jul 24, 2012, 10:18 PM
Post #6 of 27 (4132 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why are skydiving incidents in the USA not reported to the USPA?

What's absolutely amazing to me is why it isn't required to report incidents and accidents as defined by the FAA, to the FAA. The USPA terminology is completely out of sync with the rest of the aviation industry. The FAA tried to change this several years ago, but the USPA talked them out of it.

I realize it might have been a paperwork burden on some DZs, but isn't that kinda the point? If you're having accidents that often, folks kind of ought to be able to know about it.

Here, read this and see if the definitions and criteria used at most DZs line up with this. Pay particular attention to the terminology used for fatal injury and serious injury.

http://www.ntsb.gov/.../6120_1web_nopwx.pdf

Contrast and compare with,
http://www.uspa.org/...t_Report_2007_05.pdf


(This post was edited by quade on Jul 25, 2012, 1:30 AM)


Nutz  (D License)

Jul 25, 2012, 2:45 AM
Post #7 of 27 (4084 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Most are not reported because Dzo's don't want bad publicity. They like to be able to tell student's and tandems that they have no serious injuries or deaths.

If the real number of injuries was presented to new jumpers more people would decide this isn't for them. Dying is easy, living with the injuries from an accident can be much worse!

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. It is all about the money. That is what it boils down to with most things, isn't it? Embarrassment may have a little to do with it but it is really about the bottom line. Smile


stratostar  (Student)

Jul 25, 2012, 5:58 AM
Post #8 of 27 (4027 views)
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Re: [Ron] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So why provide them with details when they are going to do fuck all with it but maybe give it to someone to use against you?


Never truer words were spoken/posted....

F.U. G. B.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 25, 2012, 12:20 PM
Post #9 of 27 (3907 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
So why provide them with details when they are going to do fuck all with it but maybe give it to someone to use against you?


Never truer words were spoken/posted....

F.U. G. B.

F.U.G.B. ??????

Sparky


snwbdr94  (B License)

Jul 25, 2012, 12:51 PM
Post #10 of 27 (3887 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
So why provide them with details when they are going to do fuck all with it but maybe give it to someone to use against you?


Never truer words were spoken/posted....

F.U. G. B.

F.U.G.B. ??????

Sparky

Only thing I was able to come up with was Federation of Ukrainians in Great Britain. For some reason I don't think it applies in this situation.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 25, 2012, 12:54 PM
Post #11 of 27 (3880 views)
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Re: [snwbdr94] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

F.U. George Bush?

Some try to blame him for everything, unless I'm in the wrong forum anyway.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 25, 2012, 5:39 PM
Post #12 of 27 (3784 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

My guess is that a large part of the lack of reporting is due to the general US skydiving populations anti authority/rules attitude. The general attitude comes across somewhere between anarchist and spoilt child.

I was recently surprised to have full life insurance granted with no penalty for skydiving, while the same insurer put exclusions on skydiving for disability and income protection insurance.

Proper reporting definitely has value, it's a pity we don't have better data available.


jshiloh

Jul 27, 2012, 6:27 PM
Post #13 of 27 (3621 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why are skydiving incidents in the USA not reported to the USPA?

Multiple reasons. Partly because DZs, S&TAs, members, etc. all know that there will be absolutely zero consequences for failing to report. Even if it were made a "requirement" there would be no actual consequences for non-compliance. Just look at the frequency with which DZs violate the BSRs and countless other "rules." With no consequences.

Why are there no consequences? Because it's not in the USPA's interests to dole out punishments. The USPA is NOT a governing body! They go to great lengths to point out that they have zero regulatory, governing, or enforcement authority. They're entire purpose is two-fold: 1) as a political lobbyist to oppose and reduce government oversight/regulation; and 2) as an advertising entity to promote the image of the sport thereby making money. The absolute maximum punishment they can possibly dish out to violators is revocation of USPA membership. They cannot levy fines, shut DZs down, suspend business or anything else. USPA licensing/membership is not required for a DZ to operate in the US. Revocation of membership will have little, if any, negative impact upon a DZ or individual. But it will mean less revenue for the USPA, risks having individuals/group members leave out of anger over perceived "unfair" enforcement of rules, reduces numbers which in turn impacts their lobbying leverage.

Strict reporting requirements also runs the risk of providing information that can be used in lawsuits. It also creates records that can be used by government and/or supporters of regulation. Those records would reveal a more accurate reflection of the number of injuries and fatalities that occur in the sport. Under the current way to doing things, the USPA is free to use whatever "estimates" they want with regard to number of jumps, number of serious injuries, number of fatalities, etc. in order to show how "safe" the sport is.

So, in a nutshell, even if the USPA had some kind of viable enforcement power (which they don't), enforcement of reporting requirements would hurt the USPA because it would result in reduced membership and provide fodder for lawsuits and suggested regulations against the sport, not to mention reduced public interest resulting from injury statistics. It's easier and better for them to simply ignore it.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 27, 2012, 7:51 PM
Post #14 of 27 (3599 views)
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Re: [jshiloh] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why are skydiving incidents in the USA not reported to the USPA?

Multiple reasons. Partly because DZs, S&TAs, members, etc. all know that there will be absolutely zero consequences for failing to report. Even if it were made a "requirement" there would be no actual consequences for non-compliance. Just look at the frequency with which DZs violate the BSRs and countless other "rules." With no consequences.

Why are there no consequences? Because it's not in the USPA's interests to dole out punishments. The USPA is NOT a governing body! They go to great lengths to point out that they have zero regulatory, governing, or enforcement authority. They're entire purpose is two-fold: 1) as a political lobbyist to oppose and reduce government oversight/regulation; and 2) as an advertising entity to promote the image of the sport thereby making money. The absolute maximum punishment they can possibly dish out to violators is revocation of USPA membership. They cannot levy fines, shut DZs down, suspend business or anything else. USPA licensing/membership is not required for a DZ to operate in the US. Revocation of membership will have little, if any, negative impact upon a DZ or individual. But it will mean less revenue for the USPA, risks having individuals/group members leave out of anger over perceived "unfair" enforcement of rules, reduces numbers which in turn impacts their lobbying leverage.

Strict reporting requirements also runs the risk of providing information that can be used in lawsuits. It also creates records that can be used by government and/or supporters of regulation. Those records would reveal a more accurate reflection of the number of injuries and fatalities that occur in the sport. Under the current way to doing things, the USPA is free to use whatever "estimates" they want with regard to number of jumps, number of serious injuries, number of fatalities, etc. in order to show how "safe" the sport is.

So, in a nutshell, even if the USPA had some kind of viable enforcement power (which they don't), enforcement of reporting requirements would hurt the USPA because it would result in reduced membership and provide fodder for lawsuits and suggested regulations against the sport, not to mention reduced public interest resulting from injury statistics. It's easier and better for them to simply ignore it.

Actually their purpose is 3-fold. What started out an organization of individuals was changed by the BOD to include “Group Members” better known as DZO’s. Check how many Directors are either DZO’s or a proxy for a DZO. You have a group selling the service dictating rules to the people buying the service. What’s wrong with that picture?

Sparky


"The United States Parachute Association (USPA) is a voluntary membership organization of individuals who enjoy and support the sport of skydiving. The association is incorporated in New York and follows the constitution and by-laws contained in the USPA Governance Manual. The purpose of USPA is three-fold: to promote safe skydiving through training, licensing, and instructor qualification programs; to ensure skydiving’s rightful place on airports and in the airspace system, and to promote competition and record-setting programs."

http://www.uspa.org/...PAAircraftManual.pdf

http://www.uspa.org/...abid/72/Default.aspx


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jul 27, 2012, 10:29 PM
Post #15 of 27 (3571 views)
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Re: [quade] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Please let us know what the FAA did with the Tandem Fatalities in the past few years ? falling out of harness passengers, the lady who almost fell out of harness in north CA ? did they took any action ? NC, NV fatalities & others.

I'm touching tandem because it is the "Public Safety" & it is a commercial activity.

They might took action but I never saw any report on that.

Please advise.

Thanks.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jul 27, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #16 of 27 (3562 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, your guess is as good as mine. The point I was making is the FAA wanted to get deeper into accident reporting and the USPA was able to lobby that effort away.

The USPA isn't just indifferent to reporting as some people may be suggesting, but are actively against it as demonstrated during the FAA comment period on that proposal.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 28, 2012, 12:44 AM
Post #17 of 27 (3548 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
]If the real number of injuries was presented to new jumpers more people would decide this isn't for them. Dying is easy, living with the injuries from an accident can be much worse!

That's incorrect. Australia has a mandatory incident reporting scheme. It isn't perfect, but it's miles ahead of the US system.

Incidents don't appear to deter new jumpers.


jshiloh

Jul 29, 2012, 4:49 PM
Post #18 of 27 (3453 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Smile Hi

Please let us know what the FAA did with the Tandem Fatalities in the past few years ? falling out of harness passengers, the lady who almost fell out of harness in north CA ? did they took any action ? NC, NV fatalities & others.

I'm touching tandem because it is the "Public Safety" & it is a commercial activity.

They might took action but I never saw any report on that.

Please advise.

Thanks.

The FAA can investigate, but that's the extent of their authority or ability to do anything. If it turns out the rigger did something wrong, the FAA can revoke the rigger's certification, at most. Similarly, they have power over the pilot. But they can not take action against the DZ (except if there are problems with the aircraft). Even if the FAA investigation uncovers criminal negligence, the most they can do is refer the case to the local DA's office for further action.


Krip  (Student)

Sep 19, 2012, 10:39 PM
Post #19 of 27 (2996 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
So why provide them with details when they are going to do fuck all with it but maybe give it to someone to use against you?


Never truer words were spoken/posted....

F.U. G. B.

F.U.G.B. ??????

Sparky

Hi Sparky

GBSmile I think a check of the past or mybe even present employee's at USPA might have the same initialsWink

I'm old and forget,but still smart enough to not point the fingerr at the wrong person.If someone finds a match a ggogle search might fill in the blanks according to the net,

IMO The USPA incident reporting form is missing some critical info. People maimed with $6 to 7 figure hospital bills.

One DZ had a person that spent 6-9 month's in the hospital, serious TBI might walk with a cane forever..

Another injury a month or two later resulted in a Quadro, but who knows he may recover some of the use of his limbs.

On a more positive note I have to give credit to the DZ/s involved because they had some first responders and equipment avail that probably saved lives.

Both of these peeps had "adequate" health insurance and had a stong friend & familly support system.

Time to take a napUnimpressed

R


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 19, 2012, 11:43 PM
Post #20 of 27 (2981 views)
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Re: [Krip] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
F.U. G. B.


I figured it out…with a little help from my friends. Wink

Sparky


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Sep 21, 2012, 1:20 AM
Post #21 of 27 (2848 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is nothing in it for the DZ/DZO/S&TA/person to report something. Why would you?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 21, 2012, 2:04 AM
Post #22 of 27 (2833 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is nothing in it for the DZ/DZO/S&TA/person to report something. Why would you?

oh i dont know maybe something to do with getting out the info to see if there are trends developing that need addressing.

You were a talking head on one of the "no shit there I was" TV shows talking about a tandem drogue bridle wrapped around a TI. It screened on TV here yesterday (looked like old footage though). Why did YOU report on it? Just for the TV face time??


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Sep 21, 2012, 3:38 AM
Post #23 of 27 (2820 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

I got paid...

I understand the need for trends and data, I am just saying that the average person has nothing in it for them to go through the effort of collecting that info and writing reports.

Now if you got PAID to do that, there might be some incentive. Or if you got a beer for doing that, or sex, or a new car or some other reward. The 'reward' of data is simply not enough for most people.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 21, 2012, 4:55 AM
Post #24 of 27 (2808 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I got paid...

I understand the need for trends and data, I am just saying that the average person has nothing in it for them to go through the effort of collecting that info and writing reports.

Now if you got PAID to do that, there might be some incentive. Or if you got a beer for doing that, or sex, or a new car or some other reward. The 'reward' of data is simply not enough for most people.

That's more a sad indictment on the apathetic nature of those persons holding the ranks responsible for the submission of the reports.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Sep 21, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #25 of 27 (2799 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

Investigating accidents and submitting reports are part of the duties of the S&TA. I understand that it is a volunteer position but if you don't want to do the requirements of the job, don't accept the appointment.

I understand why DZ owners may not want reports sent in because of past problems w/ confidentiality. That is a separate (and very valid) issue.


Krip  (Student)

Sep 22, 2012, 11:09 AM
Post #26 of 27 (298 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi SM

Thats part of the problem with USPA and their GM program. USPA wasn't always like this.

If the DZ wants to get paid extra for filling out the paperwork then they souldn't be a USPAGM. I'm sure your aware that some S&TA are either DZO's or their employee's

But USPA was taken over by the DZO's a long time ago, they stole the brand, and use it as part of their marketing program. That horse left the barn a long time ago.

Bring on the tandems and AFF, become a liscensed jumper, rent our gear etc. Sly

You think you understand but you really don't. But this is the internet and your entitled to your opinion, Just like I'm entitled to mine. BTW before you send me a PM or want to argue I joined USPA in 1968.





That is all
R.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 22, 2012, 3:42 PM
Post #27 of 27 (275 views)
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Re: [Krip] Why are incidents in USA not reported to USPA? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi SM

Thats part of the problem with USPA and their GM program. USPA wasn't always like this.

If the DZ wants to get paid extra for filling out the paperwork then they souldn't be a USPAGM. I'm sure your aware that some S&TA are either DZO's or their employee's

But USPA was taken over by the DZO's a long time ago, they stole the brand, and use it as part of their marketing program. That horse left the barn a long time ago.

Bring on the tandems and AFF, become a liscensed jumper, rent our gear etc. Sly

You think you understand but you really don't. But this is the internet and your entitled to your opinion, Just like I'm entitled to mine. BTW before you send me a PM or want to argue I joined USPA in 1968.

Nail meet hammer.

Sparky




That is all
R.



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