Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Two out from a static line.

 

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Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 26, 2012, 4:08 PM
Post #26 of 40 (884 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

>The student is going to get a canopy.

No, he's not. While I was a SL JM I saw all sorts of antics. Students that grabbed the pilot chute. Students that rolled so violently they wrapped the bridle around their feet. One guy who pulled the SOS handle just far enough to cut away but not far enough to open the reserve.

>If the student is unable or unwilling the SLI will climb down the SL hold on to the
>student rig with on hand and cut the SL with the other.

Gotta call "bullshit" on that one. We tried it once just for fun; it's next to impossible, and puts the student at a very high risk of serious injury or death.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 26, 2012, 5:48 PM
Post #27 of 40 (870 views)
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Re: [billvon] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
While I was a SL JM I saw all sorts of antics. Students that grabbed the pilot chute. Students that rolled so violently they wrapped the bridle around their feet. One guy who pulled the SOS handle just far enough to cut away but not far enough to open the reserve.

Pilot chute: Fair enough, but some of us are thinking about direct bag. No steenkin' pilot chute.
SOS handle: Well, I suppose it can happen than you cut away the non RSL side and haven't yet pulled the extra inch or two to activate the RSL side. Still, without those antics, the student would likely have had a good main.

Direct bag SL students are pretty likely to get some sort of canopy overhead. But there are always exceptions...


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 27, 2012, 7:27 AM
Post #28 of 40 (844 views)
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Re: [racerman] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a new jumper how would you know servicable from un-servicalbe? They do a great job training and are the friendliest group of folks. However the gear needed to be replaced years ago The poster states that they're still using round reserves! Didn't USPA change the BSR's over 30 years ago to require Ram Air reserves for students?
USPA requires a "steerable" reserve. Rounds do qualify.
USPA also requires "a functional automatic activation device that meets the manufacturerĺs recommended service schedule [FB] "
The FB means it can be waivered by a vote of the full board of directors.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 27, 2012, 7:31 AM
Post #29 of 40 (844 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To lower the risk of a two out, caused by a aad firing with a main deployed. The student is going to get a canopy. If the main is bad, cutting away will activate the reserve through the RSL. The worst case would be a Staic line in tow. We teach our students rleft hand on your reserve handle right hand on your head. Only when the SLI sees this will he cut the static line. If the student is unable or unwilling the SLI will climb down the SL hold on to the student rig with on hand and cut the SL with the other. Activating the students reserve once clear.
What you're talking about is so old school. It CAN'T be done, or maybe I should say it can't be done safely with any consistancy.
If you have any assets at all, it's time to leave this DZ. If somethings happens, everyone will get sued. Putting out a student without a fuctioning AAD is NEGLEGENCE. No waiver will stand up in court.
If this DZ is a USPA member, the board needs to take action.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 27, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #30 of 40 (836 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Post:
In Reply To
To lower the risk of a two out, caused by a aad firing with a main deployed. The student is going to get a canopy. If the main is bad, cutting away will activate the reserve through the RSL. The worst case would be a Staic line in tow. We teach our students rleft hand on your reserve handle right hand on your head. Only when the SLI sees this will he cut the static line. If the student is unable or unwilling the SLI will climb down the SL hold on to the student rig with on hand and cut the SL with the other. Activating the students reserve once clear.
What you're talking about is so old school. It CAN'T be done, or maybe I should say it can't be done safely with any consistancy.
If you have any assets at all, it's time to leave this DZ. If somethings happens, everyone will get sued. Putting out a student without a fuctioning AAD is NEGLEGENCE. No waiver will stand up in court.
If this DZ is a USPA member, the board needs to take action.

These guys have no business training students if what you say here is true.

You said this DZ is USPA. Where exactly is it?.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Jul 27, 2012, 12:57 PM)


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Jul 27, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #31 of 40 (827 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

I love how people on dz.com can turn a training question into a witch hunt. Yes it is old school, yes the equipment should be replaced, but in 30 years of being a dzo the guy has never even seen a fatality, so he must be doing something right. How many of you can say that about your dz?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 27, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #32 of 40 (824 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I love how people on dz.com can turn a training question into a witch hunt. Yes it is old school, yes the equipment should be replaced, but in 30 years of being a dzo the guy has never even seen a fatality, so he must be doing something right. How many of you can say that about your dz?

That's great. So who is it?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 27, 2012, 10:54 AM
Post #33 of 40 (818 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

love how people on dz.com can turn a training question into a witch hunt. Yes it is old school, yes the equipment should be replaced, but in 30 years of being a dzo the guy has never even seen a fatality, so he must be doing something right.
In reply to:

That would depend on how many first jumpers he trains per year, and if it is only 10 or 12, the odds are pretty good that he'll have a fairly good bounce record.

Do you really think, in this day and age, first jumpers should be jumping without AADs, and with round canopies?.

Good gear is proven to be safer especially for students.

Its why we don't jump B4's with capewells, C9/T 10's, 24 ft twill reserves and Sentinel 2000/ KAP 3 AAD's any more.

And is why the student fatality rate is so low compared to back in the day.

I jumped gear like that back in the day, because there was no other option, and it did a good job. But it should now be in a museum.

And, as pointed out, why the "sliding down the SL to cut someone free" is BS. If that is an example of his expertise, what other BS is he telling his punters?.

There is good gear available, and there is no excuse for not using it, unless the guy is a cheapskate. I bet he doesn't charge 30 year old prices for his courses.

He is doing his students a disservice, and in short, is ripping them off and not doing the best job he could be doing for them.

That this kind of stuff, is going on, in 2012, makes me really angry.


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Jul 27, 2012, 12:21 PM
Post #34 of 40 (806 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

Probally averages 10 per week, yes we think the gear should be updated but his prices are pretty low. $140 for the FJC $45 for a student or coach jump. Includes gear rental.


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Jul 27, 2012, 12:29 PM
Post #35 of 40 (804 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

This post wasn't ment to talk about gear, but to question how much should be taught about two out situations. Remember you can teach just about every thing about just about anything but when a first jump student leaves the airplane they are not going to remember it all. I think it's better to give them the minimum amount of information to survive the jump and build on that.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 27, 2012, 1:16 PM
Post #36 of 40 (790 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Firstly, a two out on exit due to an AAD misfire is pretty unlikely....IF the AAD's are good ones and properly maintained.

A two out is more likely to happen on exit if the student pulls the wrong handle while doing a DRP or grabs the stevens lanyard by mistake, or goes spiraling down below the activation level..

Having said that, is is pretty unlikely to happen, but can, so it has to be incorporated into FJ training. However, it does not need to be covered in great detail, because the complexities and variation in what can happen are many, so there is a risk of confusion here. It has already been outlined pretty well how to deal with two outs, so I won't go into that in detail.

However it is important in all situations except a downplane, to stay cool, assess the situation, and fly the canopies with caution....because with two safely open the student isn't in immediate danger. Your radio man (you do have radios, right??) comes into his own here and can talk the student down in a calm, controlled manner.

Without knowing the type of gear used, its hard to give an accurate description of what to do.....is the gear SOS, or two pull for EP's, round or square reserves, size of main v reserve(if square), types of AAD available etc, because different systems can mean different actions when dealing with problems

Its also important for the instructors, whatever their views, stick to a standard method of training.

Two outs are tricky, because often there is no "right" answer. What you do one day and get away with is quite capable of killing you the next. Fortunately the occurance is reasonably rare.

If this guy is training 10 first jumpers a week, and has done so for 30 years, there is no excuse to penny pinch on student gear....he should put his price up if necessary and get decent stuff.

And from a DZO's point of view, its a lot less stressful if you have top quality gear, and your training is simpler as well.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Jul 27, 2012, 5:57 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 27, 2012, 1:18 PM
Post #37 of 40 (789 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

USPA also requires "a functional automatic activation device that meets the manufacturerĺs recommended service schedule
Quote:

A cheapskate DZO would prolly argue that a static line is an automatic activation device....


Willi91  (E 369)

Jul 30, 2012, 9:14 AM
Post #38 of 40 (717 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

I witnessed a two-out situation earlier this year. I was in the plane and my father was the instructor. We also use static-lines. The exit itself was perfect, the student did a great job being stable. Not only get two out, he also landed in a lake. But he did everything he was taught.

We teach our students not to touch anything at all if the canopies are stable next to each other. And this particular student did absolutely nothing. Exactly as he was taught. Which is also the reason for him landing in the lake.

After inspecting the gear, we came to the conclusion that the cause was a reserve handle with too little slack in the wire. In was simply to short. The opening shock pulled the pin out.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 30, 2012, 11:23 AM
Post #39 of 40 (702 views)
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Re: [Willi91] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After inspecting the gear, we came to the conclusion that the cause was a reserve handle with too little slack in the wire. In was simply to short. The opening shock pulled the pin out.

Can also happen in a real deep arch.


imfromwales  (C License)

Aug 6, 2012, 8:29 AM
Post #40 of 40 (627 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Two out from a static line. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I had two out on first jump!

rolled onto back and the static line caught reserve pin somehow and got two out. didnt have anywhere enough knowledge to know what to do so i didnt do anything and just tried to land it.

hard landing on the runway.

What kind of main and reserve were you on?

Manta 280 main and not sure on reserve...


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